were we born to run?

PeakOutput

sorry if this has been posted already but i think its a great talk

http://www.ted.com/talks/christopher_mcdougall_are_we_born_to_run.html

as he gets to at the end basically he endorses bare foot running and just wondering if anyone here does this exclusively and what has your experience been?

fcleere

PeakOutput wrote: »

sorry if this has been posted already but i think its a great talk

http://www.ted.com/talks/christopher_mcdougall_are_we_born_to_run.html

as he gets to at the end basically he endorses bare foot running and just wondering if anyone here does this exclusively and what has your experience been?

his book is quite a good read.some interesting inputs from different people, including Gerard Hartmann. i know people who use the VibramFiveFingers and they come highly recommended.

PeakOutput

fcleere wrote: »

his book is quite a good read.some interesting inputs from different people, including Gerard Hartmann. i know people who use the VibramFiveFingers and they come highly recommended.

thanks was thinking about getting a pair of these last summer as i spend the summer barefoot anyway and this would make it possible year around, iv never really tried intense excersise barefoot though, should be interesting

mloc123

Bruce Springsteen thought so anyway...





I'll get my coat....

10 Toe Runner

Yep, I read the book and converted fully to Vibrams, haven't looked back since (maybe that should be 'yet').

Anyway, I've found them good so far, your toes being loose gives you extra spring going forward. They are particularly good doing uphill.

Some points of warning are that it takes some time to adjust to them, your calves initially are quite tight. Also, I'm still adjusting to going downhill, cause I used to be a real 'road pounder' going down hill, not so easy to do that without and inch of rubber. Finally I've had to get used to giving a warning cough when going past walkers and others, cause you make very little noise in these. After scarying a few people half to death running past on quieter roads I decided it best to give the little cough a few metres back!

Overall I think they're good, but I would recommend going for a trial in them before you buy, that's what I did.

shels4ever

Maybe we were born to run, but when the average man was capable or running miles and miles barefoot he also would have been dead before he reached 30. Also would have had a very log body fat % and would have has as many over weight ppl back then. The barefoot thing might be good for some but not for all.

RayCun

10 Toe Runner wrote: »

Finally I've had to get used to giving a warning cough when going past walkers and others, cause you make very little noise in these.

I make very little noise when I'm running anyway. In Raheny on the weekend I remember I was running in a bunch of people, all fairly quiet, and could hear some guy approaching from about ten feet away, really walloping his feet off the ground.

Barefoot running seems to be an 'adapt or die' strategy. If you are a heavy heel-striker, you're going to be injury-prone. Running barefoot means you have to stop running like that, or you'll be in pain immediately.

DULLAHAN2

I am getting my Vibram fivefingers tommorrow. I have been doing some barefoot running on the beach so hopefully this will help.

I love the book reading it again.

Frank778

I bought a pair of Vibram Five Fingers last month after reading the book and hearing all the hype about them. There were so many fake ones online but i found a company based in Dublin that shipped them next day to me. Pretty freakin cool given im not patient, AT ALL Oh and i love them by the way, take some getting used to. Thinking about doing the dublin city marathon this year in them! They may look wierd but shoes just don't cut it anymore for me :-)

ThisRegard

The thing is, how many tarmac roads and concrete paths are there in the south American jungles ? I'd be sceptical if these tribes would continue to rub barefoot if they lived on the city streets or if the barefoot phenomenon was more than just a fad.

TheRoadRunner

The day an Irish born barefoot runner overtakes me in a race is the day I'll consider barefoot running is something more than a gimmick and a fad. I've read the book as well and is a good read but the % of people I know who picked up injuries from trying it is close to 100%

Oryx

Ive just read that book and it does make you want to sling off your shoes and go running barefoot. But the impression I got from the book, particularly the sections where he talks about coaches, is that barefoot running for 'regular' athletes is a supplement to their normal running, rather than the main way they train. In the conclusion of the book noone does the big race barefoot, the one guy who wears vibrams ends up with bandaged feet.

I spoke to my physio about it, he has seen people injured from trying it. But reckoned its because people try too much, too soon. As mentioned above, it requires a lot of adaptation. Were used to cushioned shoes.

The book certainly is food for thought though, I will be trying more barefoot beach runs this year, but I draw the line at vibrams. Im funny about my toes.

Frank778

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

The day an Irish born barefoot runner overtakes me in a race is the day I'll consider barefoot running is something more than a gimmick and a fad. I've read the book as well and is a good read but the % of people I know who picked up injuries from trying it is close to 100%

Have you tried running in them yourself! It's defiantly not 100% injury anyway because i would be included in that percentage and i have yet to receive any injury, if anything my feet and body feel better. Most people that get injuries don't allow transition time from padded shoes to barefoot shoes hence the problem. Barefoot running is here and as long as people take the transition slowly ( as you will be using muscles that you haven't used in years ) they will be fine. There are a good 40 people i go running with, we all wear Vibrams and 2 people have developed injury by pushing themselves too hard too fast. Have you tried it yourself? Even just kicking off the shoes and running in the house :-)

baza1976

Frank778 wrote: »

Have you tried running in them yourself! It's defiantly not 100% injury anyway because i would be included in that percentage and i have yet to receive any injury, if anything my feet and body feel better. Most people that get injuries don't allow transition time from padded shoes to barefoot shoes hence the problem. Barefoot running is here and as long as people take the transition slowly ( as you will be using muscles that you haven't used in years ) they will be fine. There are a good 40 people i go running with, we all wear Vibrams and 2 people have developed injury by pushing themselves too hard too fast. Have you tried it yourself? Even just kicking off the shoes and running in the house :-)

Find it strange that all of the people you go running with wear Vibrams. Are they that popular???

TheRoadRunner

Frank778 wrote: »

Have you tried running in them yourself! It's defiantly not 100% injury anyway because i would be included in that percentage and i have yet to receive any injury, if anything my feet and body feel better. Most people that get injuries don't allow transition time from padded shoes to barefoot shoes hence the problem. Barefoot running is here and as long as people take the transition slowly ( as you will be using muscles that you haven't used in years ) they will be fine. There are a good 40 people i go running with, we all wear Vibrams and 2 people have developed injury by pushing themselves too hard too fast. Have you tried it yourself? Even just kicking off the shoes and running in the house :-)

Do you by any chance sell vibrams? I'm neutral on the whole thing but my outlook is if it's not broken then don't fix it. And overall I'm doing ok in regular runners. As I've been wearing shoes all my life I'm not going to risk an injury for something that may or may not help my overall performance

PeakOutput

does anyone have a link to an irish website that sells the vff? ill probably just get them sent over from the states but if there is a reasonably priced irish vendor ill buy off them

baza1976

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

Do you by any chance sell vibrams? I'm neutral on the whole thing but my outlook is if it's not broken then don't fix it. And overall I'm doing ok in regular runners. As I've been wearing shoes all my life I'm not going to risk an injury for something that may or may not help my overall performance

Great minds think a like!!!!! I was thinking the same thing

eliwallach

ThisRegard wrote: »

The thing is, how many tarmac roads and concrete paths are there in the south American jungles ? I'd be sceptical if these tribes would continue to rub barefoot if they lived on the city streets or if the barefoot phenomenon was more than just a fad.

About the same as the desert canyons of Central America, where the Tarahumara actually do their thing.

donothoponpop

PeakOutput wrote: »

does anyone have a link to an irish website that sells the vff? ill probably just get them sent over from the states but if there is a reasonably priced irish vendor ill buy off them

Most of the specialized Irish running stores will have them.

<mod>I'd like to point out a recent change to our charter, which has been put there in response to recent efforts from race promoters, tour operators, sports stores, commercial running websites; who have all sought to shill their product under the guise of signing up, linking to a product or service, and asking if anyone has heard of it- all who have denied via PM being connected to the service, and all who subsequently were found to be connected.

From our charter: "We're happy for regular posters to recommend goods and services, but new posters doing so may find their recommendations deleted. (This because of the growing frequency of new posters signing up to advertise businesses)".

No reflection on anyone who posted in this thread, but a reminder that if you're new here, links to commerce may be cut. </mod>

Oryx

eliwallach wrote: »

About the same as the desert canyons of Central America, where the Tarahumara actually do their thing.

They dont wear vff, they wear homemade sandals.

cnocbui

We were born to walk, not run. Evolution is a pretty good designer so the failure rate of knees when subject to running is one clue.

Oryx

cnocbui wrote: »

We were born to walk, not run. Evolution is a pretty good designer so the failure rate of knees when subject to running is one clue.

If you read the book, he makes a very good argument for us having evolved as running animals rather than walking ones.

PeakOutput

cnocbui wrote: »

We were born to walk, not run. Evolution is a pretty good designer so the failure rate of knees when subject to running is one clue.

well if you had of watched the video i linked he addresses that quite clearly

cnocbui

Oryx wrote: »

If you read the book, he makes a very good argument for us having evolved as running animals rather than walking ones.

I have seen really good arguments made for us having evolved from aquatic apes.

I am not aware of any human populations living a paleolithic lifestyle that run a lot.

Oryx

cnocbui wrote: »

I have seen really good arguments made for us having evolved from aquatic apes.

I am not aware of any human populations living a paleolithic lifestyle that run a lot.

Im not going to make the argument for or against, but I would suggest you read the book and see if you agree or have a counter argument. He talks a lot about the evils of running shoes, and I would imagine there is quite a good argument against what he says, I would be interested in an informed view on his evolution theory as well.

jb-ski

Frank778 wrote: »

There are a good 40 people i go running with, we all wear Vibrams and 2 people have developed injury by pushing themselves too hard too fast. Have you tried it yourself? Even just kicking off the shoes and running in the house :-)

hi Frank, do ye run as group in Dublin area, by any chance?

It would make a fantastic photo, if someone could take a pic and post it here.

i'm just reading 'Born to Run' now, so have no opinion on the barefoot running topic (YET!)

ThisRegard

eliwallach wrote: »

About the same as the desert canyons of Central America, where the Tarahumara actually do their thing.

Wherever, the point is no different.

10 Toe Runner

Some good points 'for' and 'against', as one who falls on the 'for' side I would agree with the guys who take the 'why fix what's not broken approach'. I think the reason I decided to make the change is that I wouldn't have as many miles on the clock as some of the more experienced runners here, and that my technique was poor.

If you are doing a lot of miles in normal runners, changing to the likes of Vibrams all the time could create problems. I haven't tried going back to normal runners since, but maybe I should try that to see if there will be any difference, it might be interesting to mix them up in training as suggested earlier.

PeakOutput

for me they have many advantages besides running

i go barefoot during the summer in rugged terrain anyway and my feet always feel the better for it

i do a lot of weights so for squats and deadlifts and the like thin soled shoes or none at all are recomended, so i could use these

i prefer walking with no shoes but its not practical in the winter if i could get over the funny looks and monotonous style i would probably happily wear something like this every day

i noticed today warming up on the track that i dont land very heavily on my heel and am probably fairly flat footed naturally so i shouldnt have too much problem with the lack of padding under the heel

i gotta wait for my overdraft to come threw but ill order these next week probably and see how it goes

Frank778

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

Do you by any chance sell vibrams? I'm neutral on the whole thing but my outlook is if it's not broken then don't fix it. And overall I'm doing ok in regular runners. As I've been wearing shoes all my life I'm not going to risk an injury for something that may or may not help my overall performance

Nope, don't sell them, just relaying some feedback that i had to offer on the Vibrams, thats all.

Frank778

jb-ski wrote: »

hi Frank, do ye run as group in Dublin area, by any chance?

It would make a fantastic photo, if someone could take a pic and post it here.

i'm just reading 'Born to Run' now, so have no opinion on the barefoot running topic (YET!)

Hey,

Yeah ill get a few and post them up! <Mod: No Advertising>
Frank

TheRoadRunner

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

Do you by any chance sell vibrams?

Frank778 wrote: »

Nope, don't sell them, just relaying some feedback that i had to offer on the Vibrams, thats all.

Frank778 wrote: »

Yeah ill get a few and post them up! <Snip>

Ah come on :cool:

Cabaal

Frank778 wrote: »

Hey,

Yeah ill get a few and post them up! <Snip>

Frank

<Snip>
Now come clean and admit your connecting to a company selling them....its only fair.

Frank778

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

Ah come on :cool:

You are relentless mate! A few points to take on board before we point fingers:

- I'm a runner, who runs barefoot and likes wearing VFF's hence why i felt it valuable to add my feedback to people who would be less expierienced to the barefoot running world.

- I joined to give my opinion on a topic im familiar with and felt like i could offer some useful advice to people who wouldn't understand barefoot running like i would.

For future reference, please get facts correct before you start pointing fingers, and maybe contribute some postive feedback to the thread.

I understand that advertising on boards.ie is a massive problem and i do not condone this in any way at all. But if people ask questions that i feel i can contribute towards, i will do so.

But i appriciate the time some people do dedicate to weeding out ''Advertising'' Comments ;-)

Frank!

DULLAHAN2

So i got my Vibrams on sat and went for small run 1 mile to see how they felt. From the little time i had in them i could feel how i was landing and tried to land on the forefoot/ mid foot which i found easier to do than wearing runners. It will take a couple of weeks to get used to the new style but i am so far happy with them. I read on barefoot ted's site

that barefoot running might not be for everyone and If your running strategy has been about very specific time or distance goals, and you have been willing to push through pain to injury, then I would caution you: your bare feet will not allow you to continue this way

. So i am not too pushed if i have to buy a pair of racing flats to push myself in races but i am hoping that when i get used to running in my Vibrams that my form will improve and that i can alternate some of my runs in them i.e if i was going for a leisurely 10k i could stick them on and away i go.
Time Will Tell at least if they dont work for me i have lost nothing as they were a present and i know not to be wasting my time thinking about them.

DULLAHAN2

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

The day an Irish born barefoot runner overtakes me in a race is the day I'll consider barefoot running is something more than a gimmick and a fad. I've read the book as well and is a good read but the % of people I know who picked up injuries from trying it is close to 100%

Going by your PB'S i wouldn't say there would be many people who could pass you:D

leopardus

I have seen really good arguments made for us having evolved from aquatic apes.

There are some really good videos and scientific publications from the Skeletal Biology Lab in Harvard, really worth having a look:
http://www.barefootrunning.fas.harvard.edu/

I am not aware of any human populations living a paleolithic lifestyle that run a lot.

A really great video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=826HMLoiE_o

donothoponpop

Frank778 wrote: »

You are relentless mate! A few points to take on board before we point fingers:

- I'm a runner, who runs barefoot and likes wearing VFF's hence why i felt it valuable to add my feedback to people who would be less expierienced to the barefoot running world.

- I joined to give my opinion on a topic im familiar with and felt like i could offer some useful advice to people who wouldn't understand barefoot running like i would.

For future reference, please get facts correct before you start pointing fingers, and maybe contribute some postive feedback to the thread.

I understand that advertising on boards.ie is a massive problem and i do not condone this in any way at all. But if people ask questions that i feel i can contribute towards, i will do so.

But i appriciate the time some people do dedicate to weeding out ''Advertising'' Comments ;-)

Frank!

<Frank778 banned for advertising throughout this thread. I'd suggest people take his comments on VFF with a pinch of salt-mod>

shels4ever

leopardus wrote: »

There are some really good videos and scientific publications from the Skeletal Biology Lab in Harvard, really worth having a look:
http://www.barefootrunning.fas.harvard.edu/



A really great video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=826HMLoiE_o

I though that was going to be pro barefoot running, but looks like the runner was wearing an old pair of puma

RayCun

cnocbui wrote: »

I am not aware of any human populations living a paleolithic lifestyle that run a lot.

Reminds me of this hilarious article

leopardus

I though that was going to be pro barefoot running, but looks like the runner was wearing an old pair of puma

I was really addressing, with the link and the video, the suggestion by previous posters that there is no evidence that man evolved as a cursorial hunter. I think the articles from the Harvard research group suggest strongly that they did.

I do think that it is a completely different arguement to then infer that getting rid of runners, and running barefoot or in Vibrams (VFF), is a panacea for injury prevention and improved performance. My personal experience however, is that runnning barefoot and in VFF has meant I'm no longer plagued with problems I had whilst running in shoes. Probably because it forced me to run in a more 'natural' fashion.

Reminds me of this hilarious article

Twilight-esque and hipster cave men (people?),there must be something to it.

mithril

Incidentally the presumed Paleolithic diet is a terrible one for runners. High in animal fat and protein, low in carbohydrates.

jb-ski

shels4ever wrote: »

I though that was going to be pro barefoot running, but looks like the runner was wearing an old pair of puma

I think i saw a couple of energy gels stuck to his belt also:)

DIRTY69

Just read all the comments on here, interesting the whole barefoot running movement. Must read the book. I have a pair of minimal Jinga shoes on their way, and a pair of huaraches too. Both cost less than the five fingers and offer practical everyday wearability too.

As someone who is just getting into running, it would be interesting to find out if there are a few good trails, apart from Phoenix Park, which i guess is going to be occupying most of my running time :-)

milosh

I'd love to recommend barefoot running (but I can't!) I introduced one days training in vffs before Christmas. I really enjoyed running in them but my calfs were always tight after the runs.

Uphill runs were easier but the downhill part of any run put real pressure on my achilles and calves. No problem until last week when I tore my calf (grade 1) running downhill on a recovery run at a slowish pace. So there goes my Barcelona marathon and lots of my fitness built up from last summer. I'll be out of action for two months according to the physio. I'm not blaming running barefoot but I'm clearly not made for it.

Its a great book though!!

DIRTY69

milosh wrote: »

...my calfs were always tight... I'm clearly not made for it.

Good that you gave it a go man. I've heard its the kind of thing you need to introduce gradually. Even experienced runners said that they are using completely different muscles, so I'm not surprised if the calfs were tight, similarly the arches of your feet may have not been used to it. I'd have to say I'm not built for it either, but after enough gentle training to get into it i will be. I think understanding the science of how it works is helping me a lot, and that it's something the human body is made for, just that the majority of us aren't conditioned for it at the moment.

They recommend taking off the normal trainers for 5 minutes in each run and build up from there apparently.

Peetrik

As was said before, if you run competitively and have times you need to maintain then changing to barefoot of vff's probably isnt for you. You essentially have to learn how to run again.

Personally I run a lot in training for ring sports, sprints for cardio, intervals for recovery time and longer slow runs just for weight control. Races and PBs etc wern't a factor for me so I could go as slowly as I needed to get used to them.

I used to suffer weekly/monthly from knee, shin and hip problems from running. I switched last november to not using running shoes and now I dont suffer from those problems any more. I know there could be a few explanations for this such as maybe going slightly slower as I built up the milage again gave my joints time to recover but personally I feel its due to being forced to correct my running form, heel striking and changing from a longer stride with more landing impact to a higher cadence with a lighter impact thats easier on my joints and muscles.

Just my 2c