decent diet, moderate exercise but slow weightloss?

tvman12

Hi Folks
I have a bit of a conundrum.
First my details:

Male
30
191lbs
5'9

I lost about two stone two years ago following a fairly strict low carb diet (basically atkins) (20-40 grams of carbs a day) but I put it all back on because I found I couldn't sustain that low level of carbs over time.

Over the last 4 weeks I have been trying to lose weight again, this time in a way that I can sustain for the long term so I have been using a low gi approach combined with exercise.

Here's what I'm doing:

Diet.
Breakfast:
Scrambled or fried eggs (2) with 2 slices of buttered wholegrain toast*
or.
95% pork sausages (3) with a fried egg with with 2 slices of buttered wholegrain toast
or
bowl of kelkin low gi muesli with skimmed milk with with 2 slices of buttered wholegrain toast

*The bread is Brennans crunchy wholemeal with poppyseeds and pumpkin

lunch
2 ryvita with either full fat cream cheese or tuna mix sachet
and an apple or grapes

dinner
lean meat plus vegetables and sometimes some low gi staples.
e.g. steak with roasted peppers and sweet potatoes
or chicken curry (from Pataks curry powder) with 60g portion of wholegrain rice
or roasted salmon with steamed broccoli

various other dinners along these lines.

and dessert of cup of low fat yoghurt with and apple and handful of grapes.

Not really snacking - don't feel hungry at any point during the day.


Exercise
started cycling to work (4k each way so total of 8k) every day.

I'm finding this very easy to maintain because the wholegrain bread/ryvita/wholegrain rice etc. is satisfying my love of carby foods.

The problem is that I'm losing weight very slowly. I've lost a total of 3.5 lbs over the last 4 weeks - on the very low carb diet the weight fell off me very quickly, particularly at the beginning. I was losing 2+ lbs a week.

One other, possibly relevant, factor - I quit smoking as well 4 weeks ago. I read somewhere that quitting smoking can slow your metabolism significantly. Although I'm on nicotene patches so this might temper the metabolism slowing effect somewhat.

Basically I'm just looking for comments on whether this regime will lead to sustainable weightloss.

Thanks

tvman

--Kaiser--

Whilst you may have replaced High GI foods with Low GI foods, the total amount of carbs you are eating is quite high (unless you are exercising a lot). This could explain the slow rate of fat loss.

menoscemo

3.5lbs over 4 weeks is a very sustainable weight loss. While this diet may not be the quick fix that the Atkins provided you, as you say yourself it is something you are more likely to stick to.

tvman12

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Whilst you may have replaced High GI foods with Low GI foods, the total amount of carbs you are eating is quite high (unless you are exercising a lot). This could explain the slow rate of fat loss.

yea - that thought occured to me, I'm just in the process of totting up my carbs eaten per day. I might try cutting out the wholegrain rice at dinner and stick to roasted/steamed veg. Thanks.

Does it look like I'm eating too many calories. When I was doing the low carb I never even considered calories but I'm not sure now.

tvman12

menoscemo wrote: »

3.5lbs over 4 weeks is a very sustainable weight loss. While this diet may not be the quick fix that the Atkins provided you, as you say yourself it is something you are more likely to stick to.

that's true - I'm not too unhappy with the rate I was just wondering if there's is any easy changes I could make to speed things up a bit.

--Kaiser--

tvman12 wrote: »

that's true - I'm not too unhappy with the rate I was just wondering if there's is any easy changes I could make to speed things up a bit.

As above, if it's sustainable there's no need to worry about it. A lb a week is very respectable and it's better than yo-yoing in weight.

Many people find that if they cut out grains (wheat especially) they can lose weight easier.

rocky

If you want to drop weight faster, (although ~1 pound a week is healthy and sustainable), you need to drop calories (not necesarily carbs) or increase exercise or both.

In your case you'd be better going for white bread (shock horror :eek:) at ~70 cals/slice than your current seeded bread which, if it's anything like the nutty bread I sometimes have, is ~120cals/slice. Even better, Lidl do a light bread that's only 48 calories per slice.

white/brown/blue doesn't matter, high gi/low gi doesn't matter. The GI scale is measured by consuming only one food in isolation, which doesn't often happen in real life. For example, 50g carbs from potatoes will ilicit a blood sugar response of about 125 mg/dL, but if you add 50g butter, the blood sugar is only 90 mg/dL max:



edit: graph is from here:

The effect of coingestion of fat on the glucose, insulin, and gastric inhibitory polypeptide responses to carbohydrate and protein

Einhard

I really don't understand the obsession with Atkins', GI and other such fad diets. The key to losing weight is to take in less energy than you expend. So, to shift the pounds, just limit the amount of calories you consume on a daily basis. As it doesn't necessitate the type of rigour and application needed on other diets, it's far esier to sustain over the long term. Our ancestors didn't even know what carbs were, or follow the latest diet from style magazines, but by dint of the fact that their calorie expenditure/intake was in some form of balance, they didn;t exactly struggle with their weight.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Einhard wrote: »

I really don't understand the obsession with Atkins', GI and other such fad diets. The key to losing weight is to take in less energy than you expend. So, to shift the pounds, just limit the amount of calories you consume on a daily basis. As it doesn't necessitate the type of rigour and application needed on other diets, it's far esier to sustain over the long term. Our ancestors didn't even know what carbs were, or follow the latest diet from style magazines, but by dint of the fact that their calorie expenditure/intake was in some form of balance, they didn;t exactly struggle with their weight.

Well I think that's often the trick with atkins. You read about ketosis and using your fat for energy and think its a great idea but the reality is by virtue of the fact you're eating a load of protein and fat you don't feel as hungry and therefore consume less calories.

Similar with lo GI, you think ''oh wow, no insulin spike that's really clever.... but again you're just consuming less calories because the foods you're encouraged to stick to keep you full.

El_Dangeroso

rocky wrote: »

edit: graph is from here:

The effect of coingestion of fat on the glucose, insulin, and gastric inhibitory polypeptide responses to carbohydrate and protein

Did you get that from Chris Masterjohn's blog? I was reading that today too.

Re: the 'trick' of Atkins, it's sometimes a bit more than simple temporary hunger suppression of ketosis, which wears off eventually. The diet is soo restrictive in the first two weeks (basically, meat, leafy veg, small amount of cheese) that it can also eliminate any food sensitivities that would cause the part of the brain that is responsible for regulating appetite to inflame.

Fat tissue (in a healthy, slim person) sends a signal to the brain to let it know how much is 'in the tank' so to speak. Inflammation makes the molecules responsible for the 'Tank's full, stop eating' signal not reach the brain, as there is a very narrow opening for these molecules to get into the brain blood barrier.

Low carb drops triglycerides in the blood, which drops inflammation and then allows the 'tanks' to communicate with the brain. Usually the first message is 'For the love of god, stop eating already! I'm getting insulin resistant ova hee':D

You can achieve the same thing without going low carb but it does lack the massive motivation boost you get from dropping all that glycogen water.

rocky

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Did you get that from Chris Masterjohn's blog? I was reading that today too.

Yep. I'm checking a couple blogs every day and I'm disappointed when there aren't any new articles.

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Re: the 'trick' of Atkins, it's sometimes a bit more than simple temporary hunger suppression of ketosis, which wears off eventually. The diet is soo restrictive in the first two weeks (basically, meat, leafy veg, small amount of cheese) that it can also eliminate any food sensitivities that would cause the part of the brain that is responsible for regulating appetite to inflame.

Fat tissue (in a healthy, slim person) sends a signal to the brain to let it know how much is 'in the tank' so to speak. Inflammation makes the molecules responsible for the 'Tank's full, stop eating' signal not reach the brain, as there is a very narrow opening for these molecules to get into the brain blood barrier.

Low carb drops triglycerides in the blood, which drops inflammation and then allows the 'tanks' to communicate with the brain. Usually the first message is 'For the love of god, stop eating already! I'm getting insulin resistant ova hee':D

You can achieve the same thing without going low carb but it does lack the massive motivation boost you get from dropping all that glycogen water.

I recall reading something on the idea that low carb diets will lead to insulin resistance. The fatter a person is, the longer it'll take to get there. Also if people are quite lean (<12% bf), low carb is really detrimental to their health. That is, when their weight loss is not stalled. Any clues as to where I might have read that ? Don't remember the source

El_Dangeroso

rocky wrote: »

Yep. I'm checking a couple blogs every day and I'm disappointed when there aren't any new articles.

Google reader is your friend, it just pops in when there's something new to read.

rocky wrote: »

I recall reading something on the idea that low carb diets will lead to insulin resistance. The fatter a person is, the longer it'll take to get there. Also if people are quite lean (<12% bf), low carb is really detrimental to their health. That is, when their weight loss is not stalled. Any clues as to where I might have read that ? Don't remember the source

I'd love to read that if you find it. The only thing I've seen on low carb diets for the lean is that they might lead to low mood.

I know you have physiological insulin resistance when low carb at any weight. As in if you do an oral glucose tolerance test you'd come get the same result as a diabetic. But that is completely different type of IR than the one that leads to diabetes, so called 'chronic' IR. You can get rid of the other one with a few days of eating carbs.

brianthebard

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Low carb drops triglycerides in the blood, which drops inflammation and then allows the 'tanks' to communicate with the brain. Usually the first message is 'For the love of god, stop eating already! I'm getting insulin resistant ova hee':D

Are overweight people not already insulin resistant? Or am I thinking of insulin sensitive? And whats the difference? Please and thank you.

tvman12

Thanks for the feedback - I'm going to drop the carbs at dinner and see how that works out

rocky

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Google reader is your friend, it just pops in when there's something new to read.

I'm going to give it a try - thanks.

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

I'd love to read that if you find it. The only thing I've seen on low carb diets for the lean is that they might lead to low mood.

I know you have physiological insulin resistance when low carb at any weight. As in if you do an oral glucose tolerance test you'd come get the same result as a diabetic. But that is completely different type of IR than the one that leads to diabetes, so called 'chronic' IR. You can get rid of the other one with a few days of eating carbs.

I dunno if I should post in here or in the ‘low carb’ thread to give others something to think about.

First, there’s this study in rats (with all the associated disadvantages):
Longitudinal adaptations to very low-carbohydrate weight-reduction diet in obese rats: body composition and glucose tolerance.

Linked from here: Very Low Carb and Insulin Resistance

Also, chronic high NEFA/FFA levels seem to induce insulin resistance: http://cms1.daegu.ac.kr/_upload/PDSBoard_01/PDSBoardDocs_10/jwyun/534/Nature,2006,444,840-846(1).pdf

Discussed here : Mechanisms linking obesity to insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes

It seems to me that a high-fat diet will have elevated circulating NEFAs (not necessarily TAGs).

Sure, the evidence is not cut-and-dried, but something to ponder anyway...

Oh, forgot about this long thread on one of the lowcarb forums:

Gary Taubes - have some of us gone beyond the point of no return?

That's just the thread title, don't want to seem I'm picking on Taubes again - it's about low carb diets. People's weight loss there is either stalled, or the weight is creeping back on, so 'eat as much fat/protein as you want' doesn't work for them.

Get them in a study already !

El_Dangeroso

rocky wrote: »

I dunno if I should post in here or in the ‘low carb’ thread to give others something to think about.

First, there’s this study in rats (with all the associated disadvantages):
Longitudinal adaptations to very low-carbohydrate weight-reduction diet in obese rats: body composition and glucose tolerance.

Linked from here: Very Low Carb and Insulin Resistance

Also, chronic high NEFA/FFA levels seem to induce insulin resistance: http://cms1.daegu.ac.kr/_upload/PDSBoard_01/PDSBoardDocs_10/jwyun/534/Nature,2006,444,840-846(1).pdf

Discussed here : Mechanisms linking obesity to insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes

It seems to me that a high-fat diet will have elevated circulating NEFAs (not necessarily TAGs).

Sure, the evidence is not cut-and-dried, but something to ponder anyway...

Yep, all those papers are referencing what happens in temporary physiological insulin resistance (the one on NEFA seems to be the wrong paper), it's an important adaptation that spares glucose for the energy hungry brain when there ain't much of it about. You get the same deal when you fast. BIG difference between that and a pathological state.

Here's a great explanation:

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2008/08/physiological-insulin-resistance.html

brianthebard wrote: »

Are overweight people not already insulin resistant? Or am I thinking of insulin sensitive? And whats the difference? Please and thank you.

Not necessarily, usually you get fat until a certain point when you become insulin resistant, so the fat comes first. But skinny people can become insulin resistant too.

It is thought that the liver becomes insulin resistant first. Then the liver, not getting the 'message' of insulin saying 'loads of glucose around' starts thinking that there is no glucose in the bloodstream, liver panics and releases glucose like there's no tomorrow until the levels get so high that muscle becomes resistant as a defense mechanism, ostensibly making the blood sugar even higher.

High blood sugar in some people will cause beta-cell burnout and voila, type two diabetes. (though it should be noted that not all IR people eventually get diabetes.)

rocky

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Yep, all those papers are referencing what happens in temporary physiological insulin resistance (the one on NEFA seems to be the wrong paper), it's an important adaptation that spares glucose for the energy hungry brain when there ain't much of it about. You get the same deal when you fast. BIG difference between that and a pathological state.

Here's a great explanation:

http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2008/08/physiological-insulin-resistance.html

Would you believe, I had 8 tabs open with Peter's physiological insulin resistance articles, but didn't get a chance to read through them yet

That paper states that NEFAs induce insulin resistance and impair beta cell function. While the first part (inducing insulin resistance) may refer to the physiological type, damaging beta cells crosses over into pathology. And while low carb diets may help initially in controlling blood glucose, is this maybe treating a symptom and not looking at the real problem (beta cell damage)? - which can be augmented by high NEFAs.

corkcomp

maybe not what you want to hear OP but my guess it its down to a few things, firstly cycling to work each day is great, but it may not be enough, you have to shake it up, push yourself hard and lift weights if possible. on the diet side, it looks high(ish) in calories and you are combining high fat and high carb in the same meals which causes probems for a lot of people.. why not try having your carbs in the morning, without so much fat and eat higher fat foods in the evening with lower carbs. many people believe that ingested fat is more likely to be shunted to fat cells in the presence of high insulin levels and ive found separating out fats and carbs to different meals (within reason!) worked well for me in the past

El_Dangeroso

rocky wrote: »

Would you believe, I had 8 tabs open with Peter's physiological insulin resistance articles, but didn't get a chance to read through them yet

That paper states that NEFAs induce insulin resistance and impair beta cell function. While the first part (inducing insulin resistance) may refer to the physiological type, damaging beta cells crosses over into pathology. And while low carb diets may help initially in controlling blood glucose, is this maybe treating a symptom and not looking at the real problem (beta cell damage)? - which can be augmented by high NEFAs.

As fun as it is to theorise with biochemistry, we just don't see 'pathological' IR in long term low carb dieters. In fact we see the opposite. You know how you hate when people simplify things to 'Well if diabetes is a disease of carbohydrate intolerance, then too much carbohydrate must cause it!', this is exactly the line of reasoning you are using here. Sounds like a neat idea until you take into account the boundless complexity of the human system.

High NEFA will not in and of itself cause beta cell burnout absent of a underlying pathological state.

To bring it back to anecdote I ate VLC for around three years, and am now better able to tolelerate carbs than I ever was. Carbs don't make me hungry anymore, they fill me up for hours. My blood glucose hovers around 4.6-5.8 consistently. I'd take that as a sign of improved glycemic control.

Dixie Chick

Hi OP

I think that 3.5lbs is good enough in 4 weeks as you dont seem to be cutting down a lot of calories so what you are doing is getting into habits that are easier to keep up than an atkins appraoch

I lost a lot of weight going a low GL diet last year and still aim to eat low gl now as much as possible and im maintaining well