Boat Tailed Hollow Point

Tackleberrywho

Has anyone ever seen the aforementioned round after impact.

Will they expand??

I often wondered this; as a lot of Match ammo is hollow point, and some hunting ammo is also hollow point

Ref:.223

Could a 75 grain .223 be used ethically on vermin?
Would they use most of there energy on the target or will they just zip in and out?

FMJ's are a definate No-No for the Field, I'm just thinking out loud here.
(So no need to bite my head off about Target ammo in the field)

What is the difference between Boat Tailed Hollow Point MATCH and You guessed it, Boat Tailed Hollow Point Hunting??

Are the copper jackets harder on Match??

I used to shoot 6.5 Lapua Medalist I think they were called (had a Gold Medal on the box)and a dealer said to me once that they would drop a deer just like a soft nose

I take all these statements with a pinch of salt.

All informed replies appreciated.
Thanks!

stick shooter

As i am aware but could be wrong but the only difference is the weight of copper jacket, I have seen a friend of mine with his .223 shooting rabbits with hornady 75gr bthp match never a run off and most times massive damage .And the same with foxes .Hope its of some help.

ejg

Some do and some don't....expand.
Depends on the particular bullet and the speed it impacts at.
One must try.
Seen barnes show bullets that were fired into a barrel of water from the
top. If the bullets expand on water impact, they'll expand on game.
edi

Cass

My understanding of it, and only my undeerstanding as i have no practical comparison of the two is that the Match HPBT bullets have a thicker jacket, as such making them almost the same as a FMJ.

The Game HPBT bullets would have a thinner jacket meaning quicker, instant and consistant fragmenting of the bullet. You are though leaving the expansion up the impact, hence the reason (i assume) most lads would use a soft point of ballistic tip to ensure expansion/fragmentation.

I do remember finding some bullets in a backstop, used for target work, and most were intact. They were mishapen, and some even "mushroomed", but for the most part they were intact. I have no game bullets to compare, partly because i have not looked for them, but i would imagine that due to their make up there would be little to find.

My best "educated" opinion anyway.

stick shooter

Ezridax wrote: »

My understanding of it, and only my undeerstanding as i have no practical comparison of the two is that the Match HPBT bullets have a thicker jacket, as such making them almost the same as a FMJ.

The Game HPBT bullets would have a thinner jacket meaning quicker, instant and consistant fragmenting of the bullet. You are though leaving the expansion up the impact, hence the reason (i assume) most lads would use a soft point of ballistic tip to ensure expansion/fragmentation.

I do remember finding some bullets in a backstop, used for target work, and most were intact. They were mishapen, and some even "mushroomed", but for the most part they were intact. I have no game bullets to compare, partly because i have not looked for them, but i would imagine that due to their make up there would be little to find.

My best "educated" opinion anyway.

As far as i know there is no real rule of thumb , All rounds are different . Depends on bullet application some match rounds are designed for grater jump onto the lands over others ,Which means they need thicker and harder copper jackets over hunting rounds . I no bergers target bullets from two years ago the machines that made them are now making the hunting rounds of now , And they are saying the only difference from the rounds then and now are the thicker jacket to allow grater jump onto the lands for target shooting .

Just my opinion,

Cass

stick shooter wrote: »

As far as i know there is no real rule of thumb , All rounds are different .

My opinion would be based on Sierra rounds as they are the brand i have the most experience using. I have read elsewhere that some shooters would recommend Berger match rounds for hunting as they have thinner jackets than Sierra and are "suitable" for both target and hunting. not sure on this myself and honestly don't think i care much to try.

Depends on bullet application some match rounds are designed for greater jump onto the lands over others ,Which means they need thicker and harder copper jackets over hunting rounds.

That would probably stand true for factory ammo which has to be "lawyer" friendly to suit all chambers/breaches of the calibers they are designed for. However when you consider the amount of bullets sold (and i mean bullets not rounds) all over the world and the amount of reloading that occurs around the world i find it odd that they would produce a thicker (hence heavier i would assume) round to jump the lands, as most reloaders would measure their overall length and seat the bullet accordingly. Granted they may still jump the bullet but when talking in measurements of thousands instead of hundreds i see little need for a thincker jacket to "tolerate" this jump.

stick shooter

Ezridax wrote: »

My opinion would be based on Sierra rounds as they are the brand i have the most experience using. I have read elsewhere that some shooters would recommend Berger match rounds for hunting as they have thinner jackets than Sierra and are "suitable" for both target and hunting. not sure on this myself and honestly don't think i care much to try.



That would probably stand true for factory ammo which has to be "lawyer" friendly to suit all chambers/breaches of the calibers they are designed for. However when you consider the amount of bullets sold (and i mean bullets not rounds) all over the world and the amount of reloading that occurs around the world i find it odd that they would produce a thicker (hence heavier i would assume) round to jump the lands, as most reloaders would measure their overall length and seat the bullet accordingly. Granted they may still jump the bullet but when talking in measurements of thousands instead of hundreds i see little need for a thincker jacket to "tolerate" this jump.

Interesting , But as you say your opinion , Im only going by people that reload in the uk and us are saying , I guess bergers are wrong on there rounds ,(about there jacket reasons and why they are now at different thickness) From an engineering point of view i am quiet well aware of what hundreds and thousands are .

Tackleberrywho

The notion came to me when looking at a few different types of match ammo.
If one gets a pin and puts it into th ehole on Most match ammo it can be seen that there is a large cavity behind the small pin hole.

Most Hunting ammo is ballistic tipped, ref:Hornady GMX which uses a Polymer tip to split the head open rapidly.

Some 6XC ammo by Norma is Marked Hunting and others is marked Match, but AFAIK they both use the same heads.

To be match ammo "my understanding" must have good BC and have precise loads of powder.
Hunting ammo less so.

I've never tried to find out, but it always interested me.
Specifically the Hollow Point Boat Tailed stuff.

Logic suggests that if there is a cavity in the round that it will callapse upon impact.
Yet hollow point only seems to be used up to .223 Cal and not larger cal's in favour of soft nose and ballistic tipped.

stick shooter

In the 6.5x55 i took the head as in bullet apart ,And one was match hollow point and the other was hunting hollow point. one was lapua and the other was sako .The sako was a lot thinner and softer than the lapua target round .

Cass

stick shooter wrote: »

Interesting , But as you say your opinion , Im only going by people that reload in the uk and us are saying , I guess bergers are wrong on there rounds ,(about there jacket reasons and why they are now at different thickness)

Do me a favour and stop being so aggressive/defensive. I was merely stating my understanding of the matter. You ask 100 different lads that reload the same question and you will get 100 different answers, so there is no wrong or right answer. Only peoples personal choices/opinions, and if you take every post that responds to a thread you are involved in as personal you will spend all your time arguing rather than contributing to the fora.

From an engineering point of view i am quiet well aware of what hundreds and thousands are .

I do not know you or what you do or do not know. When i respond i do so in a manner that not only you can understand, but anyone reading may also understand even those with no knowledge of the specifics. It is a public forum after all.

My only reason for mentioning the reloading aspect is not to drag the thread off topic, but to bring another aspect of why a bullet has the makeup it does.

Tackleberrywho wrote:

To be match ammo "my understanding" must have good BC and have precise loads of powder

Also the type of powder used would be a factor. Varget and N140 powder is a target brand of powder and alot of shooters would use it. However the exacting nature of target work is not so necessary when it comes to hunting, so different powder with different burn rates, etc would be used.

Yet hollow point only seems to be used up to .223 Cal and not larger cal's in favour of soft nose and ballistic tipped.

I would imagine it can be got however the larger calibers cannot attain the speeds of the smaller CF calibers so they rely on impact energy and "size" to do the work. For example a .223 would have an average speed of somewhere between 3300fps up to 3800fps. A .308 could not get this speed, as the very size of the bullet would tear itself apart. So it is run at a slower speed, and has the BT or SP to ensure expansion.

stick shooter

Ezridax wrote: »

Do me a favour and stop being so aggressive/defensive. I was merely stating my understanding of the matter. You ask 100 different lads that reload the same question and you will get 100 different answers, so there is no wrong or right answer. Only peoples personal choices/opinions, and if you take every post that responds to a thread you are involved in as personal you will spend all your time arguing rather than contributing to the fora.



I do not know you or what you do or do not know. When i respond i do so in a manner that not only you can understand, but anyone reading may also understand even those with no knowledge of the specifics. It is a public forum after all.

My only reason for mentioning the reloading aspect is not to drag the thread off topic, but to bring another aspect of why a bullet has the makeup it does.



Also the type of powder used would be a factor. Varget and N140 powder is a target brand of powder and alot of shooters would use it. However the exacting nature of target work is not so necessary when it comes to hunting, so different powder with different burn rates, etc would be used.



I would imagine it can be got however the larger calibers cannot attain the speeds of the smaller CF calibers so they rely on impact energy and "size" to do the work. For example a .223 would have an average speed of somewhere between 3300fps up to 3800fps. A .308 could not get this speed, as the very size of the bullet would tear itself apart. So it is run at a slower speed, and has the BT or SP to ensure expansion.

Fair enough but you must see ware i am coming from too?

Tackleberrywho

Buffalo and Moose etc use Hollow point, saying that the Hollow is quite large

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Halvmantlad_.jpg

http://whiskeytangofirearms.com/product.php?productid=30425

stick shooter

Back to what you were asking, I have seen hornady 75gr hpbt match expanding on a rabbit . Not saying it is the best round to use but i know it will expand .

Cass

I do and never questioned the validity of your statement, in fact i actually verified your point on the Berger bullets points by agreeing with you.

This is a public and discussion forum/site. You will never get a week (or even a day) where someone will not disagree with you. If you take offense to all that do disagree then as i said you will either be stressed to bits or end up leaving, and i'm not just talking about this thread.

Learn to understand that you will have as many agreeing with you as disagreeing and then times you will be out on your own. Most threads end with no definitive answer, but instead a large collection of opinions and assumptions.

Now thats said can we get back to the topic of the thread.


When in doubt Tack stick with what you know and trust. If you were to load a hunting HPBT round with the same powder as a HPBT target/match round i dare say the difference in performance would be unnoticeable until out at the longer distances and even then it could be slight depending on BC of the bullet. Also the animal being shot would have a bit to do with the expansion of the bullet. You hit a rabbit with a .308 HPBT chances are there is not enough "mass" or "resistance" from the rabbit to cause full expansion of the bullet. Hit a deer with the same bullet and it expands quicker and more effectively.

Cass

Tack if you want to look at something forget design and look at sectional density.

The higher the SD the better the bullet will penetrate the animal. For example the 6.5 caliber, consistantly, will have better penetrative ability (per same bullet weight) as the .270, .308, and even the .338. Impact energy is another issue, but we're not talking about that. Take Hornady ammo. The 120gr GMX in 6.5 has the same SD as the 165gr GMX in .308 simply because the 6.5 has the same amount of force on a smaller area causing the deeper penetration.

Best thing is bullet design has no effect on SD. Any 150gr .308 bullet will have the same SD as any other 150gr .308 bullet irrespective of hollow point, soft point, ballistic tip, etc.

Tackleberrywho

I'm just wondering could I use match .223 HPBT to shoot rabbits ethically.

I understand the narrower projectile has more penetration etc.


I also understand that a bunny is fairly soft and narrow.
I have seen more damage done to a bunny with a .223 BT than a .270 soft point at the same range.

I think it may be time to buy some grape fruit:D

Vegeta

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

I'm just wondering could I use match .223 HPBT to shoot rabbits ethically.

On a rabbit, with a .223, I would say definitely ok. Personally I would not hesitate at a shot. Rabbits are shoot able with air rifles with a muzzle energy of 12ft/lbs (now you have to be good for that) but as paulo6.5 pointed out those hornady rounds have a lot of energy even at 500 yards so I cant see there ever being a question of ethics for a rabbit sized target. Between hydrostatic effects and size of wound causing drop in blood pressure, unconsciousness and then death even if the round is not directly into a vital, or if it doesn't expand optimally I still think it would kill them instantly on every shot bar a graze

Now on a fox sized target things do become a little more debatable I think. I have never done it myself but have heard a few times that it would be no bother for that round from a guy in our club who shoots foxes too and tried them out.

I currently have around 38 rounds of American Eagle left and when that is gone I might do some tests on the Hornady Match ammo to see is it suitable. Something along the lines of paulo6.5's test on milk jugs might do, would super strong concentrate strawberry jelly do??

landkeeper

tack i think if you have to question the ethics of shooting a rabbit with any sort of ammo from a .223 then it's time you got some help lad even at 500 yards it'll have at least 200ft/lbs that's a lot for something weighing 3-4lbs
you can't for a minute think that is a serious question :eek: now if you posted that on april the 1st i could understand it :rolleyes:

Tackleberrywho

landkeeper wrote: »

tack i think if you have to question the ethics of shooting a rabbit with any sort of ammo from a .223 then it's time you got some help lad even at 500 yards it'll have at least 200ft/lbs that's a lot for something weighing 3-4lbs
you can't for a minute think that is a serious question :eek: now if you posted that on april the 1st i could understand it :rolleyes:

I'm also concerned about the old Rick O'Shea Current Hunting rounds splatter

And as Vegeta mentioned Fantastic Mr Fox, if he steps up to the plate. We need to know that energy will be transfered

Trajectory (inches) 75grain
MUZZLE 100 200 300 400 500
-2.40 1.20 0.00 -6.90 -20.70 -42.70

Tackleberrywho

Anybody know of .223 75grain Superperformance in the country??

landkeeper

The Hornady .22 cal. 75 gr. BTHP bullet loaded in the .223 Rem. cartridge is designed to feed out of AR type magazines. If the .22 cal. 75 gr. V-MAX bullet would be loaded in the .223 Rem. case, it would be too long to fit in an AR type magazine. Both the 75 gr. BTHP and 75 gr. A-MAX bullets are match target bullets and can be used for varmint hunting as well

poulo6.5

Hack I have a box of the ordinary 75gr BTHP. I will 0 them and test them out. Then we will know for sure. If they work then the faster superformance can only do better.

You know how much I hate shooting but I'll do it for you

Vegeta

What's the price difference between 75 grain Match which use the same bullet and the super performance?

Tackleberrywho

Vegeta wrote: »

What's the price difference between 75 grain Match which use the same bullet and the super performance?

I rang around a few dealers today and I can't get a price on 75grain Superperformance

Looking at sourcing some HPS Berger 75grain VLD's if they are not available

Vegeta

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Looking at sourcing some HPS Berger 75grain VLD's if they are not available

if you find them Tack will you let me know the price I'd be interested in them too

Tackleberrywho

No luck on Sourcing VLD type ammo to date, or Hornady Superperformance.

I'd nearly start a seperate thread in Target shooting to get more info on 75grain VLD ammo.

I orig posted in teh General shooting thread as it is a non specific hunting/Target Ammo thread IMvHO

Mauser 308

stick shooter wrote: »

As i am aware but could be wrong but the only difference is the weight of copper jacket, I have seen a friend of mine with his .223 shooting rabbits with hornady 75gr bthp match never a run off and most times massive damage .And the same with foxes .Hope its of some help.

223 on a Rabbit? holy **** man:D:D:D

Tackleberrywho

Head shot rabbits in any calibre all look the same

Mauser 308

Ezridax wrote: »

Tack if you want to look at something forget design and look at sectional density.

The higher the SD the better the bullet will penetrate the animal. For example the 6.5 caliber, consistantly, will have better penetrative ability (per same bullet weight) as the .270, .308, and even the .338. Impact energy is another issue, but we're not talking about that. Take Hornady ammo. The 120gr GMX in 6.5 has the same SD as the 165gr GMX in .308 simply because the 6.5 has the same amount of force on a smaller area causing the deeper penetration.

Best thing is bullet design has no effect on SD. Any 150gr .308 bullet will have the same SD as any other 150gr .308 bullet irrespective of hollow point, soft point, ballistic tip, etc.

Would that mean the 6.5 is more prone to over penetration without expanding on certain bullet types ie soft point ?

Mauser 308

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Head shot rabbits in any calibre all look the same

Fair point Tack. would it not be cheeper to run say a .22 for rabits?

Tackleberrywho

Mauser 308 wrote: »

Would that mean the 6.5 is more prone to over penetration without expanding on certain bullet types ie soft point ?

I found the best 6.5 round was a ballistic tip for hunting.

Yes Core Lokt soft nose would penetrate deep and exit fallow.
However many rounds will exit if core lokt

Tackleberrywho

Mauser 308 wrote: »

Fair point Tack. would it not be cheeper to run say a .22 for rabits?

.22lr not very good for Bunnies @600 yards

Mauser 308

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

.22lr not very good for Bunnies @600 yards

Nothing is good for Bunnies at 600 Yards except the Mixi :D I would not shoot at a deer more than max 250 yards never mind a bunny at 600. On the up side if you miss at that range you have missed completly 99.99% of the time. But do you not worry about the bullet say bouncing off something or where it goes if you miss(assuming you do miss on the very, very odd occasion) assuming most shots are in the prone position at 600 yards its hard to get a back stop...:rolleyes:

Tackleberrywho

Mauser 308 wrote: »

Nothing is good for Bunnies at 600 Yards except the Mixi :D I would not shoot at a deer more than max 250 yards never mind a bunny at 600. On the up side if you miss at that range you have missed completly 99.99% of the time. But do you not worry about the bullet say bouncing off something or where it goes if you miss(assuming you do miss on the very, very odd occasion) assuming most shots are in the prone position at 600 yards its hard to get a back stop...:rolleyes:

The Midlands is full of natural backstops.
Undulating Lowlands as they say in Geography.
I've hit bunnies out past 400 as it is Hit Or Miss by 10" or so. (and even allowing for a follow up shot)

Mauser 308

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

I found the best 6.5 round was a ballistic tip for hunting.

Yes Core Lokt soft nose would penetrate deep and exit fallow.
However many rounds will exit if core lokt

I am shooting a 6.5x 55 this my first season. I found the Norma 120g BT great for droping the animal but I could not get any sort of a good group so switched to Federal fusion140g soft point. I can get grand groups but heart&lung shot deer were running quite a bit. And the exit wounds while causing a lot of blood splash were not great. I just felt the soft point were zipping through and not dumping any energy in the animal. Started necking the deer and that works fine. But hoping to change calibre after the season to a 270 or 308 if I could make up my bloody mind, as I like the 6.5 but cant get the over penetration thing out of my head.

patsat

Alot of ppl don't like the 6.5 for the same reason!

Mauser 308

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

The Midlands is full of natural backstops.
Undulating Lowlands as they say in Geography.
I've hit bunnies out past 400 as it is Hit Or Miss by 10" or so. (and even allowing for a follow up shot)

Tack whatpart of the midlands are you in? For info and also so I know to keep my head down:D

Tackleberrywho

My old Sako 75 and a deer with 6.5x55 Norma 12w0 Grain Ballistic Tipped.
I never had any get up after them (however for €60 a box in 2007 No way José)

Mauser 308

patsat wrote: »

Alot of ppl don't like the 6.5 for the same reason!

Thanks, makes me feel better about changing. With me being new to stalking I was blaming myself a lot but I am geting more confident that the 6.5 over penetrates with soft point amo especially on lighter deer.:)

Mauser 308

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

My old Sako 75 and a deer with 6.5x55 Norma 12w0 Grain Ballistic Tipped.
I never had any get up after them (however for €60 a box in 2007 No way José)

Totaly agree Tack, the norma 120g BT were great they just did not suit my gun (or my bad shooting) I was checking the rifle zero quite regular being new and the bullets were pitching 4 /5" in my gun when I changed originally to a Hornay bullet it was perfect groups but could not source the bullet regulary, then went to 140g federal. I find they give me good groups but maybe I am wrong they over Penetrate and continue on down the line. Leaving an animal fit to run into cover and a safety concern over the bullet. Though as everyone should,I always make sure there is a back stop but a bullet leaving an animal may not follow a set line.

Tackleberrywho

Still looking for Hornady Superperformance 75grain .223!

Mauser 308

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Still looking for Hornady Superperformance 75grain .223!

Sorry Tack, signing off now to leave it with the 223 users.:)