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Is a public/Civil servant vote for Fine Gael like a turkey voting for Christmas?

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,193 ✭✭✭[Jackass]


    What makes you think I'm a student?

    I spent over 7 years working during the boom time, in the financial sector believe it or not! So I'm not ammune to criticisim of my own industry, just like you shouldn't be.

    I emmigrated and worked in Canada for a year and a half when jobs were going by the day, and I used my savings to live off and to try and better myself in another country rather than sit around on the dole scratching my ass when I was one of the lucky ones who had the oppertunity to get out, and yes, due to visa reasons and zero employment prospects, I am coming back to Ireland to further my studies in an area I'm well educated in - Economics... That is where my opinion of the civil service is formed.... education...and the realisation of what a crippling factor it has been on the Economy, once the money stopped flowing in, the civil service pay roll was the number one drain on Government liquidity, which the IMF vowed to repair, and makes paying for any bank bailout near on impossible, not that that's the civil services fault, the financial industry is a whole other kettle of fish for fu*k ups... but at least I'm not going to sugar coat it, having been a part of it.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 8,781 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    gandalf wrote: »
    Depends on what you want to hear as a Public Servant. Do you want a political party be honest like FG are and say they are going to be modernising the service and people will be losing jobs or do you want to be lied to by the other parties saying they won't and then one year down the line coming out with bull along the lines of "We do not want to make these cuts but the ECB/IMF are forcing us to".

    If you are all honest you will admit there are areas of the Public Service that need reform and if reformed it will result in jobs being lost. I think that reform will help an awful lot of Front Line staff as well freeing up resources that they need to give the service that they want to give to the general public.

    I'm a public servant and I would welcome well thought out and properly planned reform but instead of an election promise that will almost inevitably result in some tracking back down the line and instead of assuming that FG are being honest when they latch on to what their PR team has as the top most things Irish people want to see done I would love to see Politicians talk about bringing in experts or consulting with country's with the best Public Services we know of to help us to send the Public Service in the right direction.

    What we have is:-

    The Labour Party promising no reform presumably because they would fear the clash with the Unions - dissappointing.
    FG promising to remove 30,000 people - unrealistic and not properly thought out. Probably based on popular opinion moreso than realism like a lot of their proposals which sound good on paper.

    What we will probably get:-

    Voluntary redundancy and early reitirement packages with a short fall in take up and no attempt to properly reform the Public Service at all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,647 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    mewso wrote: »
    What we will probably get:-

    Voluntary redundancy and early reitirement packages with a short fall in take up and no attempt to properly reform the Public Service at all.

    In fairness, the public sector had a chance to actively participate in proper reform of the Public Service in the negotiation of the Croke Park Agreement but the unions took a hard line and opposed changes. Im not saying this is a good enough reason to take a slash and burn approach but the public service did have a chance to bring about real reform but rejected it in favour of short term self preservation. If you ask me, the turkeys have already voted for Christmas by the public service not being more reasonable in the CPA negotiations.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,719 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    [Jackass] wrote: »
    The Irish civil service is grossly over employed, with literally thousands of people doing jobs of zero value to the state, with literally hundreds of state organisations that are completely and utterly useless and not required, it's the talk in election of ridding the country of hundreds of these cancerous, useless organisations, which pump tens of millions out in wages each year to people who don't need it.

    The problem also is, once people are in the civil service they're locked in to dependant on the state. It's near impossible to get rid of them, and FF in order to keep unemployment numbers down got as many people into the civil service as possible, and it's going to cost the next Government tens of millions in redundencies to get rid of all the dead wood, and the FF Government that comes into power after this Government will just fill it all back up again, essentially wasting the tens of millions used to fix the problem, but personal gain and looking good comes before the good of the country. That was my point.

    I'm sure you're a civil service employee and I'm sure you're very important and work very hard, as many do, but don't try and compare the cozy civil service where reward is based on longevity rather than performance, thus having no incentive to perform and rather raise staffing numbers than actually be held accountable for a days work, to the private sector, where, and the IMF even said as much, half the civil service would be the first to go if this country was being run compitantly.

    Privatisation is massively undervalued too with the amount of wastage that would be inherited. Any privatisation deal would be massively devalued as the first thing they would have to do when taking over would pay half the useless staff to leave.

    Im not even reading your reply becasue you havent responded to the fact the i dispute your claims about wastage of hours and I can at the drop of a hat produce surveys which say waste occurs in the private sector. You have simply ignored this and began yabbering about some other point.

    You made a stupid generalisation about work practises with possibly zero understanding of the public service, in fact no one person could have a full understanding of an organisation of over 300,000.

    Wait you still claim this ability, so what makes you so qualified to be able to judge work practises acorss a 300,000 strong workforce and make claims with no basis?

    I have verifiable claims which can be backed up by independant surveys i also have the ability to monitor my own systems to see such abuses yet i know in my own organisation we do not allow the potential for these wastages to occur.

    so tell me what makes you better than industry survey, which tell me wastages occur in the private sector yet you seem to think the only wastages are in the public sector?


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,719 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    gandalf wrote: »
    I have dealt with the Public Sector quite a bit in one of my previous jobs and there are an awful lot of absolutely excellent and diligent people working in it. I have no doubt at all that they would welcome positive reforms that reward hard work, productivity and promotion based on performance & qualifications.

    I also know from my dealings with the Public Service that there are an awful lot of people who are just making up numbers. People who will walk out at 4pm despite a job being half done when a similar person in our Corporate clients would stay until the job was done properly.



    There is scope for reduction in numbers, especially in middle management probably by flattening the structure of some of the PS. The HSE is a prime example of an organisation that has to have the scalpel taken to the admin side of things. The Government will have to be very strong against the vested interests and I believe that a one party FG government would be the best option to do this cleanly.

    Decentralisation was a disaster. I dealt with one contact in one of the major Government departments. He was absolutely excellent at his job and one of the best I had ever dealt with in that technical position anywhere. He decided to take up a decentralisation offer to a totally different job that had nothing to do with his competencies because it was closer to his home. His replacement rang me and we discussed all the products and services that we supplied them with for over half an hour. At the end of the phone call he paused and said "Thank you for explaining about all this stuff (computer related) I have no idea about any of it". I found out that he was given the position because he was next in line for that grade level. This kind of stuff is madness and needs to be stopped immediately. It must be so demoralising for people who do have the qualifications to fill technical positions.



    Indeed it is and, it is undisputable that there is a deluge of middle management, however it must be pointed out this not a failure of the staff but of the most senior managenment that allowed this bloat to occur.
    That then furthered the probelm for potical means (Cycnical vote winning exercises prior to the 2007 election when departments still tried to move, minister driven decisions i might add. FF, these seem minsters then authorised promotions to entice staff to move to departments in ballygobackwards.)

    I will agree there is a lack of specialism in many areas and there was elements of the CPA meant to address that.

    I can assure you of one thing though while there is a lack of specialism now in some areas a slash and burn exercise on wages will not rid the PS of those that "will walk out at 4pm despite a job being half done".
    No quite the opposite these people will remain and anyone who can specialise will walk out the door and join the thousands who are fleeing the nation for better returns.

    The only way is through reform and unfortunately sucsessive governments have allowed the Ps to grow to the monster it is and no organisation of the size of the PS can be reformed overnight!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,719 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    In fairness, the public sector had a chance to actively participate in proper reform of the Public Service in the negotiation of the Croke Park Agreement but the unions took a hard line and opposed changes. Im not saying this is a good enough reason to take a slash and burn approach but the public service did have a chance to bring about real reform but rejected it in favour of short term self preservation. If you ask me, the turkeys have already voted for Christmas by the public service not being more reasonable in the CPA negotiations.

    You know what gets me most is thinly veiled abuse in posts such as this when posters such as yourself try to deride fellow irish people as animals.

    In a call to godwin i remember when another people tried to do very similiar things to a group within their society, am i saying its the same, no.
    What I am saying is words like yours show a determination to scapegoat someone rather than to discuss an issue with reason.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    galway2007 wrote: »
    Another fool ...
    only a student ...

    Folks...lets be careful about crossing the line between disagreeing with what each other is saying and making personal remarks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭NotInventedHere


    Following the back and forth on this subject, something that comes to mind is the lack of detail regarding the political party plans on public service reform. Leaving out the obvious cutting of jubs and slashing wages. Any policymakers worth their salt should know that things are rarely as simple or as black and white as they are portraying in the media at the moment.

    Also massive Public job cuts in the UK don't seem to be having the expected effect and many conservative think tanks are asking for a readjustment.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,673 ✭✭✭horse7


    you know i lot of government workers would not be entitled to the dole.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,719 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    Following the back and forth on this subject, something that comes to mind is the lack of detail regarding the political party plans on public service reform. Leaving out the obvious cutting of jubs and slashing wages. Any policymakers worth their salt should know that things are rarely as simple or as black and white as they are portraying in the media at the moment.

    Also massive Public job cuts in the UK don't seem to be having the expected effect and many conservative think tanks are asking for a readjustment.

    The conservative government never pushed ahead with massive cuts, they may have billed it as such prior to the election but once in power it became clear their methods for reduction in numbers was to be the irish model of natural wastage.

    The idea of simply culling whole departments is while a wonderful idea not that pratical when one considers all of the red tape that has been implemented to make government departments and bodies more accountable.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,719 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    horse7 wrote: »
    you know i lot of government workers would not be entitled to the dole.

    Why would they be entitled if they work?


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,357 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    horse7 wrote: »
    you know i lot of government workers would not be entitled to the dole.

    Those in before '95 would, wouldnt qualifiy for JB, but they would get JA, or the other way around.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,719 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    kippy wrote: »
    Those in before '95 would, wouldnt qualifiy for JB, but they would get JA, or the other way around.

    Peopoe who work for the government can claim the dole?


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,357 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Peopoe who work for the government can claim the dole?

    Are you being pedantic?
    The poster was making the point that if goverment/public/civil servants were made redundant they would not be able to claim the benefit broadly know as the "dole".
    I attempted to clarify this for people who may not understand the reasoning for this - without going into too much detail.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,507 ✭✭✭✭dsmythy


    kippy wrote: »
    Those in before '95 would, wouldnt qualifiy for JB, but they would get JA, or the other way around.

    Well if their financial situation requires the full rate of JA then they'll be grand anyway.


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