Russian diplomat expelled for fake Irish Passports

Trench Broom

Ireland is expelling a Russian diplomat over claims his country's intelligence services counterfeited Irish passports.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12337897

Interesting. After the alleged use of Irish passports by Israeli intelligence and the mass furore/hysteria it caused, I was expecting to see the same reaction about this.

Oh, but guess what? not a peep from anyone. All the moral indignation, the protests, the calls for boycotts against Israel at the time.

Some people suggested back then that the anger wasn't because of the passports, but because it was the Jewish state. A charge which many balked at.

So here was the opportunity to show your indignation once again, to call for boycotts of Russia etc - yet nothing. Not a single thread about it as far as I can see.

Surely this goes to show what everyone suspected? that fake passports are not the problem, it just depends which country does it.

The Irish obsession with Israel is bordering on a mental disorder.

Fight_Night

Its not just an Irish obsession tbf.

Manach

That was news to me, thanks OP.

gandalf

So we are not allowed to get exercised about the use of Irish Passports in a high profile assassination in a country that a lot of Irish conduct business in thereby putting those citizens in danger as well because of the actions of the Israeli "intelligence" service.

It is interesting that any time Israeli government actions get called into question the old anti-semitism card is played? Obviously the Israeli Government actions cannot be defended based on its merits alone.

ei.sdraob

@OP seems the Irish media hasnt reported on this yet (whats new)

Einhard

In fairness OP, a lot of people also argued at the time, that the same sanctions wouldn't be taken against Moscow as had been taken against Jerusalem. One might disgree with the Irish government's stance re Israel, but it has taken a consistent line over the forging of passports, which is to be welcomed.

RDM_83 again

FAIL

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0201/breaking50.html

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0201/passport.html

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/russian-diplomat-sacked-amid-passports-row-491736.html

Bottle_of_Smoke

I get your point OP but it isn't quite the same thing.

I don't think Russias use has put as many Irish people at an increased risk as the Mossad assasaination.

The Irish passport is one of the safest you can travel on. Not sure quite as safe in the middle east anymore.

I didn't actually follow the issue much - were any Israeli diplomats expelled?

RDM_83 again

sorry above post is in reply to ei.sdraob post

Einhard

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I didn't actually follow the issue much - were any Israeli diplomats expelled?

One was, IIRC.

paul71

Also it does not appear that the passports were used to assist in murdering someone. I agree I am surprised not to have heard about this but the scale of the crime involved is different.

Nate--IRL--

ei.sdraob wrote: »

@OP seems the Irish media hasnt reported on this yet (whats new)

EDIT:- too slow

? It is on RTE http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0201/passport.html

Nate

later12

ei.sdraob wrote: »

@OP seems the Irish media hasnt reported on this yet (whats new)

I heard about it on RTE Radio 1 live streaming hours ago, probably around lunch time. It's also been on the Irish Times.

In fairness, if there are two days in the entire year when a politician or a business wants to bury a bad news story, one is the day that the Government falls, the other is Christmas Eve. Nobody was trying to bury this story, but I am absolutely certain that if it had been announced this day last week, it would be a much bigger deal.

Having said that, there might be another reason why this has not attracted a bigger red flag.

The big difference between Russia and Israel is that we largely view the Russians as more benevolent and more genuine in terms of their often fledgling attempts at executing justice and as a member of The Council of Europe. However Israel are in a different league, whatever your personal political beliefs might be and I say that despite often finding myself sympathetic to the state of Israel.

It is entirely reasonable that we find passport abuses by the hostile face of Israel to be more shocking than the somewhat more docile, however paranoid, face of Russia.

I am not for a second forgetting Russia's own human rights issues, but like I said, they are in different league to Israel, particularly when you consider the two countries' respective sizes and populations.

Trench Broom

Einhard wrote: »

In fairness OP, a lot of people also argued at the time, that the same sanctions wouldn't be taken against Moscow as had been taken against Jerusalem. One might disgree with the Irish government's stance re Israel, but it has taken a consistent line over the forging of passports, which is to be welcomed.

Sorry, this wasn't a dig at the Irish government as such.

More the Irish 'activists' and people on forums like these that create multi-paged threads about those terrible Israelis etc. - yet not a peep about the same actions by Russia.

You know, the same people that dedicate a large proportion of their time trying to dig out some anti-Israel articles about discrimination somewhere in Israel - whilst in the neighbouring countries, gays and women are swinging from cranes by their necks.

etak

Have they been named yet?

ei.sdraob

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

EDIT:- too slow

? It is on RTE http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0201/passport.html

Nate

It is now yeh, also heard it on radio driving there

Sticky_Fingers

Trench Broom wrote: »

Sorry, this wasn't a dig at the Irish government as such.

More the Irish 'activists' and people on forums like these that create multi-paged threads about those terrible Israelis etc. - yet not a peep about the same actions by Russia.
You know, the same people that dedicate a large proportion of their time trying to dig out some anti-Israel articles about discrimination somewhere in Israel - whilst in the neighbouring countries, gays and women are swinging from cranes by their necks.

Your assertion that people show double standards with regards Israel and the rest of the Middle East is disingenuous. Most people view the surrounding Islamic regimes with contempt and there has been many many threads on boards throughout the years hostile to these backward, repressive societies would systemically brutalize their inhabitants all in the name of god.

Where Israel is different however is that unlike those small minded bigots who revel in their holy wars and the bloodshed of infidels, it tries to portray itself as a progressive, tolerant country who use appropriate levels of force when trying to protect themselves from terrorists and religious zealots. Israel has every right to protect itself from such nutjobs but not at the expense of disenfranchising an entire section of the population in order to protect preferred (Re: Jewish) people and their interests.


Israels assertion of being a civilized and enlightened nation besieged on all sides by murderous savages rings hollow in my ears when you consider the frankly inhumane treatment Israel metes out upon a ghettoized civilian population all because they happen to be of the wrong religion.


From where I stand the only difference between the conduct of the Isreali state and that of their Islamic neighbours is the book of fairy tales they use to justify the indefensible.

imme

It was only reported on in the media today. Do you know OP that there might be bigger news stories to be covered/discussed today;).

The robbery of Irish identities is wrong, whoever does it.

Son Of A Vidic

Trench Broom wrote: »

..The Irish obsession with Israel is bordering on a mental disorder.

Or perhaps Israel is a bit obsessive at using all things Irish to perpetuate their crimes.

Russia, however doesn't appear to have murdered anyone with our passports. Unlike the scum in Mossad.

JustinDee

Just like the Columbia Three, who have yet to be extradited for sentencing.

expectationlost

um cos they were used to kill

JustinDee

expectationlost wrote: »

um cos they were used to kill

The Coumbia Three were training people to kill while falsely travelling on Irish passports.

No difference. Passports used as a means to violence.
Sorry for falling for the sidetracking, mods. Just found some of the comments hypocritical.

Dr. Baltar

Russia has said that they are going to react accordingly to the expulsion of their diplomat.

I assume this means that they'll expel our diplomat in Moscow?

wes

The 2 situations were different, which the OP conveniently forgets. Mossad apparently killed somone using our passports, the Russians did not. Having said that, the Irish government acted properly by expelling both, and any theft of Irish passports is a serious matter.

Also, I do note with irony, that someone who claims others have an obsession with Israel, seems to have only posted in topics related to Israel, and then starts a topic about a Russian diplomat being expelled, and then makes it about Israel....

AGC

This has zero got to do with Israel.

The Russians were using forged passports for ease of travel especially into the states and the Diplomat being expelled is the right call, especially as he seemed to be directly involved in the 'identity theft'

The lazy journalism on this story is unreal. It has previously been in the media(last June) when it came to light. Only 3 out of 10 articles I have read have the Ambassador's name correct!!

AGC

Dr. Baltar wrote: »

Russia has said that they are going to react accordingly to the expulsion of their diplomat.

I assume this means that they'll expel our diplomat in Moscow?

Very petty thing to do. This is the second time Ireland has had to expell a Russian Diplomat. It is obvious they were in the wrong but the Kremlin won't see that.

ISAW

JustinDee wrote: »

The Coumbia Three were training people to kill

And your evidence they were doing that is?

while falsely travelling on Irish passports.

I do not think they are false Irish people. they are actually Irish as far as I know.

BlaasForRafa

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

Your assertion that people show double standards with regards Israel and the rest of the Middle East is disingenuous. Most people view the surrounding Islamic regimes with contempt and there has been many many threads on boards throughout the years hostile to these backward, repressive societies would systemically brutalize their inhabitants all in the name of god.

Where Israel is different however is that unlike those small minded bigots who revel in their holy wars and the bloodshed of infidels, it tries to portray itself as a progressive, tolerant country who use appropriate levels of force when trying to protect themselves from terrorists and religious zealots. Israel has every right to protect itself from such nutjobs but not at the expense of disenfranchising an entire section of the population in order to protect preferred (Re: Jewish) people and their interests.

I think its you thats being rather disingenuous about this. I've seen the "well we expect the repressive regimes surrounding Israel to be repressive" argument before and I just don't buy it. There has to be more to it than that.

There have been at least 140 deaths in the Egyptian crisis yet the main thread in the politics forum about it has reached just 11 pages. Contrast that with the Mavi Marmara incident where 9 turkish pro-palestine activists were killed by Israeli commandos which reached a whopping 295 pages (it had reached over 100 pages within the first week). Why is there this inconsistency, more than 15 times as many deaths in Egypt (right next door to Israel) yet there isn't anywhere near the level of outrage that was shown against Israel which does point to a rather blatant hypocrisy in my opinion.

I don't like people throwing the anti-semite accusation tbh as I think thats a bit lazy but there has to be something behind the hypocrisy of outrage on this board and I think it probably comes from a number of different reasons.

I think its probably natural that muslim/islamic posters would be anti-Israeli and it seems to be a sinn fein/republican "thing" that most posters of that persuasion are anti-Israeli. There also seems to be a liberal socialist element that feels outrage about the palestinian situation, I just don't get why there isn't similar outrage about whats happening with Egyptian protesters.

sensibleken

Trench Broom wrote: »

. - yet not a peep about the same actions by Russia.

.

Sorry, did the russians use the passport to murder the representative of a elected neighbour who they have been opressing for 60 years?

No, they used it to find out what videos people were renting. not the same thing, not the same thing at all.

JustinDee

ISAW wrote: »

And your evidence they were doing that is?

Guilty as found by judge and jury in court.
If I recall correctly, there are international arrest warrants out on them and their extradition to Columbia is still sought after an prosecutive appeal was successful.

ISAW wrote: »

I do not think they are false Irish people. they are actually Irish as far as I know.

They weren't travelling on their own Irish passports which is what they were originally found guilty of.

Its not that long ago. You should surely remember that?

JustinDee

sensibleken wrote: »

Sorry, did the russians use the passport to murder the representative of a elected neighbour who they have been opressing for 60 years?

The "elected neighbour" blew up two civilian bus stations killing Israelis, Arabs and a Belgian tourist. He was also travelling under a false passport and documentation at the time of his assassination.

In Gaza, which candidates get to stand against this so-called "elected neighbour"?
Don't bother answering as its a rhetorical question. They have no opposition in Gaza because there is none allowed.

wes

JustinDee wrote: »

In Gaza, which candidates get to stand against this so-called "elected neighbour"?
Don't bother answering as its a rhetorical question. They have no opposition in Gaza because there is none allowed.

None allowed in the West Bank and East Jerusalem either, and that bit of oppression is aided and abetted by Israel and ther US. People often conviently forget about Western backed despots for some reason.

JustinDee

wes wrote: »

None allowed in the West Bank and East Jerusalem either

???
Aside from Fatah and Hamas, there are five different political parties in West Bank and East Jerusalem, not forgetting independent councillors.
There is one in Gaza and no independents.

wes

JustinDee wrote: »

???
Aside from Fatah and Hamas, there are five different political parties in West Bank and East Jerusalem, not forgetting independent councillors.
There is one in Gaza and no independents.

So we are to forget about all the arrests and deaths of Hamas activists in the West Bank? Hamas have been completely unable to operate in the West Bank, as a political party for quite a while now.

To be fair, other parties have been allowed to operate in the West Bank, but seeing as the current leaderships term ended quite a while ago, they have essenially had no mandate for quite a while now.

Then there is this from a few years ago:
US plotted to overthrow Hamas after election victory

Seems to me that if Fatah loses to anyone else, they will use violence to get rid of them.

JustinDee

wes wrote: »

So we are to forget about all the arrests and deaths of Hamas activists in the West Bank? Hamas have been completely unable to operate in the West Bank, as a political party for quite a while now.
To be fair, other parties have been allowed to operate in the West Bank, but seeing as the current leaderships term ended quite a while ago, they have essenially had no mandate for quite a while now.

Reprisals for the violent clearout in Gaza.
Its a civil war in effect but contrary to what you said earlier, as opposed to Gaza there are other political parties active in West Bank and Jerusalem.

Trench Broom

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I think its you thats being rather disingenuous about this. I've seen the "well we expect the repressive regimes surrounding Israel to be repressive" argument before and I just don't buy it. There has to be more to it than that.

There have been at least 140 deaths in the Egyptian crisis yet the main thread in the politics forum about it has reached just 11 pages. Contrast that with the Mavi Marmara incident where 9 turkish pro-palestine activists were killed by Israeli commandos which reached a whopping 295 pages (it had reached over 100 pages within the first week). Why is there this inconsistency, more than 15 times as many deaths in Egypt (right next door to Israel) yet there isn't anywhere near the level of outrage that was shown against Israel which does point to a rather blatant hypocrisy in my opinion.

I don't like people throwing the anti-semite accusation tbh as I think thats a bit lazy but there has to be something behind the hypocrisy of outrage on this board and I think it probably comes from a number of different reasons.

I think its probably natural that muslim/islamic posters would be anti-Israeli and it seems to be a sinn fein/republican "thing" that most posters of that persuasion are anti-Israeli. There also seems to be a liberal socialist element that feels outrage about the palestinian situation, I just don't get why there isn't similar outrage about whats happening with Egyptian protesters.

Agree with all of this.

There has to be a reason. We know that Muslims (even those unconnected to the middle east) have a reactionary and almost instinctive anti-Israel attitude.

The Irish have a pretty dark history towards Jews and they have carried it on towards Israel.

'Israel' is the perfect cover for anti-semites. Attacking Israel gives a perfect alibi for those whose real gripe is actually Jews.

I'll give you an example of this double standard. Israel recently proposed changing some Parliament laws so that any land for peace deal would need a majority support from Parliament. This is the same system we have and the Americans have in the Senate.

The BBC and Guardian ran the story about the Israeli right wing government 'making it harder to achieve peace'.

Basically attacking Israel for making itself even more democratic and for having the same system as the Brits and Americans.

I mean, the European media is using a microscope on every aspect of Israeli policy and life. They pick on every detail - whilst in the surrounding countries people are still trying to get the vote.

It really is incredible.

Ireland is the most vociferous anti-Israel voice in Europe. The Irish are obsessed with Israel.

JustinDee

And back to the thread subject itself, this is normal practice surely?

Ireland really doesn't have enough clout for punitive action against the Russian Federation, so they expel a token guilty party.

Then it returns to business as usual.

Nodin

JustinDee wrote: »

???
Aside from Fatah and Hamas, there are five different political parties in West Bank and East Jerusalem, not forgetting independent councillors.
There is one in Gaza and no independents.

The Obama administration has privately made clear that it will not allow any change of Palestinian leadership in the West Bank, the leaked papers reveal, let alone any repetition of the Hamas election victory that briefly gave the Islamists control of the Palestinian Authority five years ago.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/24/us-threat-palestinians-leadership-funds

It's also worth noting that the US had been pressuring Fatah and offering financial aid and training (via Egypt) to overthrow Hamas, before Hamas launched its strike against Fatah. Also, the US blocks a unity Government between the two.

Nodin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

There have been at least 140 deaths in the Egyptian crisis yet the main thread in the politics forum about it has reached just 11 pages. Contrast that with the Mavi Marmara incident where 9 turkish pro-palestine activists were killed by Israeli commandos which reached a whopping 295 pages (it had reached over 100 pages within the first week). Why is there this inconsistency, more than 15 times as many deaths in Egypt (right next door to Israel) yet there isn't anywhere near the level of outrage that was shown against Israel which does point to a rather blatant hypocrisy in my opinion.

..............

...because there are no pro-Mubarak people in there defending the killings and blaming the victims....

wes

JustinDee wrote: »

Reprisals for the violent clearout in Gaza.

The violent clearout as you called it in Gaza happened because of the plan to over thrown Hamas in the first place. It was Hamas who engaged in reprisals, against Fatah not the other way around.

JustinDee wrote: »

Its a civil war in effect but contrary to what you said earlier, as opposed to Gaza there are other political parties active in West Bank and Jerusalem.

Yes, I was wrong in that. However, they have little or no power, and if they were to win any future elections, they may very well be over thrown by Fatah and the West.

JustinDee

wes wrote: »

The violent clearout as you called it in Gaza happened because of the plan to over thrown Hamas in the first place. It was Hamas who engaged in reprisals, against Fatah not the other way around

You've just summed up the butt of the problem.
"It was them!" v "No, it wasn't. It was them!".
I disagree with you on the start of the last bout of civil war there.

wes wrote: »

Yes, I was wrong in that. However, they have little or no power, and if they were to win any future elections, they may very well be over thrown by Fatah and the West.

"The West" are not the only proxy-with-interest involved here. Who backs Hamas? What makes these people so forgettable or their involvement so excusable? Blaming every bit of poop in the Middle East (one of the most active and bloody cold war theatres in history) on the wicked "West" is far too one-eyed and tilted a summation.

twinQuins

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I think its probably natural that muslim/islamic posters would be anti-Israeli

Trench Broom wrote: »

We know that Muslims (even those unconnected to the middle east) have a reactionary and almost instinctive anti-Israel attitude.

I think the Muslim posters on this very site would have something to say about this bigoted attitude.
I'm not even a Muslim and I find the "instinctive" comment disgusting.

wes

JustinDee wrote: »

You've just summed up the butt of the problem.
"It was them!" v "No, it wasn't. It was them!".
I disagree with you on the start of the last bout of civil war there.

Except that before any violence took place, various Hamas parlimentarians were imprisoned etc. This had an effect, that basically left the more extreme in charge imho, which directly lead the current conflict between Fatah and Hamas.

JustinDee wrote: »

"The West" are not the only proxy-with-interest involved here. Who backs Hamas? What makes these people so forgettable or their involvement so excusable? Blaming every bit of poop in the Middle East (one of the most active and bloody cold war theatres in history) on the wicked "West" is far too one-eyed and tilted a summation.

I didn't blame the West on all the problems, firstly. I did however point out that in the situation we were discussing that the West did stick its nose in, and demonstrably made a bad situation worse. Trotting out the old straw man, doesn't change the fact that the West, has often made a bad situation much worse, when it comes ot the ME.

BlaasForRafa

Nodin wrote: »

...because there are no pro-Mubarak people in there defending the killings and blaming the victims....

Rubbish. If Israel does something there is hysteria on this forum, when Egypt does something worse there is "meh"

wes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Rubbish. If Israel does something there is hysteria on this forum, when Egypt does something worse there is "meh"

Yes, your right there is hysteria, from those who defend every single murderous outrage Israel engages in, and not to mention blaming the victims. You simply don't see that kind of insane defense on any other topic. To ignore the existence of people who defend Israel no matter what on this and many other forums is absurd.

There are sites like GIYUS, which organise such support. So pretending it doesn't exist is a simple denial of reality.

The threads tend to be longer, as there are 2 sides, who will argue the topic to death. It is ridiculous to say otherwise, and pretty typical of the increasingly desperate attempts to frame any criticism of Israel as Anti-semitism.

Nodin

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Rubbish. If Israel does something there is hysteria on this forum, when Egypt does something worse there is "meh"

No, when a repressive regime does something, 99 times out of a hundred it doesn't have any serious defenders whatsoever on Boards - that goes for Burma, Indonesia, Guinea. Even on boards with far more international input, its rare. The "hysteria" tends to kick in when people start justifying it. Any thread with only one view generally doesn't go on too long as we all agree.

Bottle_of_Smoke

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Rubbish. If Israel does something there is hysteria on this forum, when Egypt does something worse there is "meh"

I think it is partly because better is expected of Israel. It is a prosperous western type democratic nation and people don't expect them to behave like other countries in the middle east.

If the US/Australia/NZ/Britain/Canada were doing similar actions to Israel there would be as much hysteria. And there was as much toward America/Britain during the Iraq war.

Nodin

Meanwhile.....

Moscow has warned Dublin it will retaliate for the "unfounded" expulsion of a diplomat over the alleged theft of six Irish citizens' identities.
Their identities were allegedly used to provide cover for members of a 10-strong Russian spying ring which was cracked in the US last year.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12343688

No Soirees for them for a bit, I'd imagine. Still, could be worse
http://punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/political-pictures-vladimir-putin-jimmys-well.jpg

Trench Broom

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

If the US/Australia/NZ/Britain/Canada were doing similar actions to Israel there would be as much hysteria. And there was as much toward America/Britain during the Iraq war.

Give that America/UK have travelled thousands of miles away to attack a country that never attacked them, do they come under the same criticism as Israel?

They may have for that particular act, but Israel is being assaulted from all angles by the media.

I don't recall any calls for boycotting America or the UK for the Iraq war. I mean, at least Israel in engaged in conflict with those that attack them. Whereas the US/UK killed more arabs in a month than have died in all the history of the Israel/Arab conflict.

Where are the calls for boycotts? where are the plethora of articles about every move they make.

Israel needs only to sneeze and it's in the news. Recently demolishing a part of a run down, disused Hotel in Jerusalem. The BBC and Guardian were all over it, the EU making noises about it.

Is there any other country where even the most minuscule of renovation is an international matter?

There was a story recently of a 'palestinian' having superficial injuries on his toe with a rubber bullet. This was on forums and in the media.

A bloody toe that didn't even need treatment!

There are people dying by the hundreds in other parts of the world, whilst the left wing and Muslim alliance are worried about an Arab toe.

wes

Trench Broom wrote: »

Israel needs only to sneeze and it's in the news. Recently demolishing a part of a run down, disused Hotel in Jerusalem. The BBC and Guardian were all over it, the EU making noises about it.

Is there any other country where even the most minuscule of renovation is an international matter?

It was in East Jerusalem, which is being illegally occupied by Israel under International law. They are also colonising East Jerusalem, which is also illegal under International law. Demoloshing buildings to settle Israeli's in East Jerusalem is illegal, and a major obstacle to peace. For you pretend that Israel colonization of East Jerusalem isn't a big deal, pretty much shows up your entire arguement, to just be a pretty desperate attempt to defend Israel.

wes

Trench Broom wrote: »

As a Muslim yourself, you will recall that your people ethnically cleansed the Jewish quarter in East Jerusalem in 1948.

My people? What are you talking about? I must have missed the Irish or Kashmiri involvement in the Israel/Palestine conflict.

Your entire concept of collective guilt is inherently bigotted.

Trench Broom wrote: »

Jews have a right to live in East Jerusalem no matter what the Oil lobby-influenced EU/UN says.

You notice that I used the word Israeli and not Jew. Its very simple, it is against International law, and it is against peace. People who support the insane settlers, are against any kind of peace between Palestinians and Israeli's, and such support exposes such peoples extremism pretty nicely.

Trench Broom wrote: »

They also have a right to live in areas such as Hebron, where your brothers butchered Jews, stole their homes and land in 1929.

Again, Israeli's have no such right. Also, my brother was born in 1989, and I was born in 1983..... So enough with the bigotry already. You have very clearly revealed your extremist positions.

Also, btw you will notice that currently in 2011, it is Israel doing the ethnic cleansing, and also in the past Zionist colonists happily engaged in terrorism and deliberate ethnic cleansing based on some stuff written in the Bible when it suited them, of course, being someone who isn't a bigot, I don't hold all Jews responsible for the action of the extremist minority.

Trench Broom wrote: »

Israel is the only country and power to have unified Jerusalem. Whilst your brothers barred Jews from their place of worship.

Again with the bigotrys and extremism. You have very clearly exposed yourself here. The settlers are insane relgious or ultra nationalist nutters, and most Israeli's aren't fans either btw. The fact that you support them, shows you criticism, to be just a desperate attempt to defend Zionist extremism, and Israel governments illegal colonization of other peoples land.