Sea The Stars Hard Back

admiralofthefleet

just thought i'd let you guys know i picked up a hard back sea the stars biography in easons yesterday. it was on sale at €1.99. as a massive follower of the flat i couldnt let it go at that price

wellsir

great deal

UrbanSea

Nice one admiralofthefleet,must get one.


Did anyone else think the post was going to be something about STS hurting his back or something :pac:

HigginsJ

must go to local easons tomorrow and check. Thats great price

hucklebuck

I prefer my expensive version:D

Trafford Lad

^ Very nice!I read somewhere recently that there is a young horse in training with Oxx called Born to Sea - I'm not 100% sure but I think it could be Urban Sea's last foal by Invincible Spirit - like I say I'm not 100% sure thats the one but it could be an exciting prospect.

NewApproach

Read this shortly after it came out. The writing itself wasn't great but there's a great collection of photos in there. At €2 you can't go wrong!

UrbanSea

Trafford Lad wrote: »

^ Very nice!I read somewhere recently that there is a young horse in training with Oxx called Born to Sea - I'm not 100% sure but I think it could be Urban Sea's last foal by Invincible Spirit - like I say I'm not 100% sure thats the one but it could be an exciting prospect.

That is correct sir. You can get 66/1 with Ladbrokes for the 2012 or 2013 Derby I can't remember which.Urban Sea died due to problems with the foal I think.

Trafford Lad

And Born to Sea is owned by Christopher Tsui as well, same colours as STS, roll on late summer when hopefully we'll get to see him run!

UrbanSea

Anyone else think that's a bad move? I'd send her to a whole load of sires before Invincible Spirit,he hardly bangs out group 1 winners.

hucklebuck

Trafford Lad wrote: »

^ Very nice!I read somewhere recently that there is a young horse in training with Oxx called Born to Sea - I'm not 100% sure but I think it could be Urban Sea's last foal by Invincible Spirit - like I say I'm not 100% sure thats the one but it could be an exciting prospect.

Cheers mate, the missus got me a tour of the yard for my birthday last year, my only regret was she didn't think of it the year before. I would have got to meet the champ too :eek:

I think you are right, worth a punt with her record. 200/1 for the 2000 and Derby double, worth €100

hucklebuck

UrbanSea wrote: »

Anyone else think that's a bad move? I'd send her to a whole load of sires before Invincible Spirit,he hardly bangs out group 1 winners.

I dunno, apparently Mrs Tsui has decent breeding records and really studies the bloodlines.

UrbanSea

That's thanks to UrbanSea,6 of her 7 offspring are stakes winners,that's some rate. Had the most expensive filly in the world aswell,3 million dollars or 4 million can't remember.

PeterKelly!

Thanks for the heads up man! I hope there are a few copies left as I am almost out of toilet paper.:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

UrbanSea

Meaning?

myfeelings

How you can think that Invincible Spirit is a bad choice?

Invincible Spirit is very well bred he's by a sire of sires in Green Desert and out of a group winning mare. He was very good on the track winning a Group 1 over 6f. He retired to stud at a relatively low fee for a freshman sire at €10000, his crops before Urban Sea visited him consisted of Fleeting Spirit, Lawman and Captain Marvelous. Before Urban Sea was covered he also set a record for number of two year old winners from his first crop. This from Invincible Spirit was quite outstanding considering he didnt have the backing of a major stud e.g Coolmore or Darley. The Irish National Stud dont support there stallions with quality mares because they dont have them so this shows that Invincible Spirit sired quality offspring from mares of a low grade. Hence the reason for him then receiving quality mares like Urban Sea because he was upgrading his mares.

What else was shown was that Invincible Spirits progeny excelled over varying distances, Urban Sea was a 1m 4f winning mare so she had the stamina but needed speed something that Invincible Spirit could give to her although he was not bred to be so speedy. By the looks of it it was one of the best options that could have been taking considering she was never going to return to Coolmore and she was based at The National Stud might have helped considering she was an old mare at the time. It looks even better now considering she bred one of the best horses ever in Sea The Stars by another son of Green Desert in Cape Cross.

If Born To Sea is a champion its because of Urban Sea she was an absolute champion on the track and in the breeding shed but please dont put down a horse like Invincible Spirit without looking him.

UrbanSea

He was hardly brilliant on the track. Won what is now the Nunthorpe as a 25/1 shot,hardly a consistent group 1 winner.
At 60,000e I can imagine a whole load of more stallions I'd send her to first(prolific group one winning producing sires)

myfeelings

Invincible Spirit was the most promising sire in Europe when Urban Sea went to him what he achieved was very good considering the quality of mares he received. He has now shown that he is one of the top sires around which has justified the reason for sending Urban Sea to him.

I would like if you could list out stallions that should have covered Urban Sea the year Invincible Spirit did, looking forward to your response.

UrbanSea

When did Urban Sea go to him?

myfeelings

Well if Born To Sea is running this year he's 2 meaning born in 2009 the year his half brother was champion so Urban Sea was covered in 2008:)

UrbanSea

Montjeu is one that's sticking out in my mind,in terms of proven GR.1 sires.

myfeelings

Montjeu is a major source of stamina being by Sadlers Wells out of a Top Ville mare, he is a stallion that would have been a nice choice because he such good success with his colts and being such a real athlete but resulting foal would probably have been a Cadran winner. Another thing to note is that there was a serious breakdown in the relationship between Magnier and the Tsuis before 2008 so Urban Sea was never going to go back to Coolmore regardless of the success she had with Sadlers Wells

UrbanSea

What happened with the fall out? Another brother to Galileo and BSB would have been an obvious shout I thought.

myfeelings

Thats something that wont be found out on boards.

Looking forward to hearing more on the stallion choices for Urban Sea in 2008

UrbanSea

-Montjeu would have been first
-Dalakhani
-Rock of Gibraltar

Danehill Dancer if was emphasizing more speed,unlike the 3 above.

myfeelings

UrbanSea wrote: »

-Montjeu would have been first
-Dalakhani
-Rock of Gibraltar

Danehill Dancer if was emphasizing more speed,unlike the 3 above.

Well i've said my thoughts on Montjeu for her.

Dalakhani is so stoutely bred being by Darshaan out of a MISWAKI mare just like URBAN SEA not saying that crosses so close arent allowed but dont think they would have allowed it. Dalakhani won an ARC just like Urban Sea and would stay all day so i wouldn't have thought because the resulting foal would be so stoutely bred that it would be no good for the flat.
Dalakhani's first foals hit the track in 2007 they weren't expected to be high class 2 year olds and they weren't so that wouldn't have helped considering him even though shes so closely related to him. His first crops classic year was good but producing a Leger winner in Conduit was never going to help the choice either even though that was in September. Moonstone was a good winner for him that year but 1m 4f.

Rock of Gibraltar was a top class racehorse but so far as a stallion has been a little disappointing. He is by Danehill(source of stamina sometimes) out of a Be My Guest(somewhat disappointing at stud) mare.
Using a champion miler on Urban Sea would have been a good choice but before 2008 Rock Of Gibraltar hadn't produced the goods considering the quality of mares he had in his first year.Mount Nelson being the best of his first crop winning a weak group 1 over a mile on soft ground. He had produced a few other group winners before 2008 in Yellowstone and Eagle Mountain.

To send her to him might have been the best option in 2008 considering his results to date. ROG is slightly light of bone and Urban Sea not having the most correct limbs might not have been the wisest of choices.

As for Danehill Dancer would have been a nice choice not sure what his results are like with mares by Miswaki but this certainly would have been nice.
BUT DANEHILL DANCER, ROCK OF GIBRALTAR AND MONTJEU ALL STAND AT COOLMORE. So none where options looking forward to more stallions that should have got Urban Sea

UrbanSea

I hadn't realised about their differences with Coolmore before you said it.
I would have sent her to some of the Coolmore stallions,as above,before Invincible Spirit,but obviously not if they wouldn't do business together. Maybe would have tried Footstepsinthesand aswell if using Coolmore,but hadn't proven himself at that stage.

myfeelings

You said that Invincible Spirit was not a good Group 1 winner although he proved to be tough and genuine with no injuries.
Then you said to send one of the best mares ever to a horse who ran 3 times although winning a good guineas but he did not prove himself at all regardless if he got injured and was showing talent he did not deserve to cover Urban Sea because of fragility and lack of top performances.

UrbanSea

He was of course tough and genuine,sure he ran to be about 5 or 6,but can't argue he was a great group 1 winner. If he hadn't have won that sprint we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I think that's a bit harsh on Footstepsinthesand. He had proved he had ability. You don't win a (very) good Guineas for nothing. I think it's one of the biggest pities that he didn't get to continue on running.

myfeelings

UrbanSea wrote: »

He was of course tough and genuine,sure he ran to be about 5 or 6,but can't argue he was a great group 1 winner. If he hadn't have won that sprint we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I think that's a bit harsh on Footstepsinthesand. He had proved he had ability. You don't win a (very) good Guineas for nothing. I think it's one of the biggest pities that he didn't get to continue on running.

Ok Invincible Spirits group 1 wasn't fantastic but when Urban Sea went to him he proved that he could upgrade his mares had produced group winners from ordinary books that is the reason that Urban Sea went to him and has now proved he is a top sire. A TOP CLASS RACEHORSE ISN'T ALWAYS A TOP CLASS STALLION. Invincible Spirit done it the hard way and deserved a mare of Urban Sea's quality

Harsh in what way i dont think you know the breeding game. He was fragile, unproven and not worthy of a mare of Urban Sea's quality. Giants Causeway hadn't shown that he was a sire of sires then and Green Desert had i know ages are different but it is all facts, these come into consideration on matings. And Rainbow Quest is a horse that passes on fragility that is a negative also as he is the broodmare isre of FSITS

Good racehorses dont always make good stallions. Invincible Spirit was a good racehorse and is now a good stallion. Footstepsinthesand was a good enough racehorse(but he didn't show enough on the track) and is now a poor stallion.

UrbanSea

No I thought you were on about Footstepsinthesand's racing ability rather than breeding ability.

I know a good horse doesn't make a good stallion(Danehill Dancer wasn't a top horse but was a top stallion)

hucklebuck

myfeelings wrote: »

Good racehorses dont always make good stallions. Invincible Spirit was a good racehorse and is now a good stallion. Footstepsinthesand was a good enough racehorse(but he didn't show enough on the track) and is now a poor stallion.

I see you have discounted the fact that a middle of the road colt can be a great stallion.

I assume you heard of Snaffi Dancer? Northern Dancer was considered a risk as he had three white socks and this was considered a sign of a weak bone structure at the time. Breeding is pure luck, horses are no different to any other animal. Brangelina's child could be a minger, Zidane's brother isn't good at football etc.

myfeelings

On the track Footstepsinthesand was not top class. I dont think it can be said he was because we only saw him race 3 times which showed what a fragile animal he was.His maiden was weak even though 20 ran and his Kilavullan was substandard. He won a good guineas and was retired reportedly because of a serious injury. I think he probably did have an injury but not as serious as was reported and a comeback could easily have been made but it as seen that there were probably better horses out there e.g Dubawi, Oratorio, Shamardal. Losing to one of these would have tainted his unbeaten record of 3:o Coolmore know the game and knew breeders would flock to him even though his form on the track wasnt good enough.

myfeelings

hucklebuck wrote: »

I see you have discounted the fact that a middle of the road colt can be a great stallion.

I assume you heard of Snaffi Dancer? Northern Dancer was considered a risk as he had three white socks and this was considered a sign of a weak bone structure at the time. Breeding is pure luck, horses are no different to any other animal. Brangelina's child could be a minger, Zidane's brother isn't good at football etc.

I know the breeding industry quite well hucklebuck. And i know that breeding involves luck but it also involves putting your knowledge to the test and that is what must be done when looking at Pedigrees, conformation, sales returns etc. It is not all luck let me tell you.

I dont see why Snaffi Dancer was brought into the mix here?
As for Northern Dancer breeding light bone i take it you also know about Danehills hocks and Rainbow Quests fragility as i was pointing out.

I dont see where your post comes into play i agree with luck needed but why a stallion is put down for know reason i deem that quite unfair. I am the one defending Invincible Spirit who deserved his chance to cover a brilliant mare because he showed talent on the track BUT he had showed that he was better in the breeding shed

Urban Sea plays the biggest part in this anyway. Invincible Spirit only plays a small part in covering, he deserved his chance with her because of getting the results but regardless if you covered her with a poor horse you'd still get a good horse because remember the dam plays the biggest part in the mating

UrbanSea

myfeelings wrote: »

On the track Footstepsinthesand was not top class. I dont think it can be said he was because we only saw him race 3 times which showed what a fragile animal he was.His maiden was weak even though 20 ran and his Kilavullan was substandard. He won a good guineas and was retired reportedly because of a serious injury. I think he probably did have an injury but not as serious as was reported and a comeback could easily have been made but it as seen that there were probably better horses out there e.g Dubawi, Oratorio, Shamardal. Losing to one of these would have tainted his unbeaten record of 3:o Coolmore know the game and knew breeders would flock to him even though his form on the track wasnt good enough.

You're making a lot of assumptions there. There are plenty of weak maidens ran by good horses every year,you don't have to beat them by 5+ lengths just to show how good you are. (Naas isn't generally associated with hosting the best maidens in the world either),sure even Sea the Stars was beaten first time out.
It's like Harbinger but not at the same time. People argue that Harbinger was a great horse after he won the King George. This is incorrect. It was a great performance and he had the possibility to progress,but the horse had put up several standard runs before that as a 3 year old. Footstepsinthesand was still totally unexposed.
I know it shows he was fragile but that could happen to any horse (I don't know what his injury was),and could have happened after 10 runs,could have just been bad luck that it was after 3(Reminds me of St Nicholas Abbey),but they'll obviously have to return him to the track.
He could only beat what was in front of him and he beat Dubawi and Oratorio that day.

hucklebuck

myfeelings wrote: »

I dont see why Snaffi Dancer was brought into the mix here?
As for Northern Dancer breeding light bone i take it you also know about Danehills hocks and Rainbow Quests fragility as i was pointing out.

I dont see where your post comes into play i agree with luck needed but why a stallion is put down for know reason i deem that quite unfair. I am the one defending Invincible Spirit who deserved his chance to cover a brilliant mare because he showed talent on the track BUT he had showed that he was better in the breeding shed

I don't doubt that you know about breeding, I am slowly learning bit by bit from the missus.

I was just using Snaafi as an example of a well bred horse that two major players thought was going to be a great racehorse and useful at stud yet failed on both counts.

Yes, i am aware of Danehill and Rainbows problems.

Sorry I don't follow: "but why a stallion is put down for know reason i deem that quite unfair" ?

myfeelings

UrbanSea wrote: »

You're making a lot of assumptions there. There are plenty of weak maidens ran by good horses every year,you don't have to beat them by 5+ lengths just to show how good you are. (Naas isn't generally associated with hosting the best maidens in the world either),sure even Sea the Stars was beaten first time out.
It's like Harbinger but not at the same time. People argue that Harbinger was a great horse after he won the King George. This is incorrect. It was a great performance and he had the possibility to progress,but the horse had put up several standard runs before that as a 3 year old. Footstepsinthesand was still totally unexposed.
I know it shows he was fragile but that could happen to any horse (I don't know what his injury was),and could have happened after 10 runs,could have just been bad luck that it was after 3(Reminds me of St Nicholas Abbey),but they'll obviously have to return him to the track.
He could only beat what was in front of him and he beat Dubawi and Oratorio that day.

Yes there are plenty of weak maidens won by good horses every year but then they go out and prove that they are good horses by running a number of good races. I wouldn't say winning a weak group 3 at 2 years old and then a group 1 at 3 is enough.He had a great performance that day it didnt show he was a great horse. You on about Harbinger saying his performance was great but not a great horse should show you what you need to know about FSITS even though Harbinger showed so much more than FSITS.

How you bring Sea The Stars into this should show you what makes a good racehorse they consistently have good results on the track prove there sound of wind & limbs then retire to stud. Exactly what Invincible Spirit done on the track and then excelled at stud.

I'm still waiting on what would have been a better cross:)

UrbanSea

I said that about Footstepsinthesand exceot that he was younger than him and less exposed than him.
I don't think i'd say Invincible Spirit had sonsistently good results on track.
His record reads 4-1-1-4-6-4-1-9-1-2-1-4-1-5-6-1. Hardly what makes a super stallion on paper,but as we've said,a race performance doesn't necessarily make their stud record.

I've already given some that you commented on,how many more would you like?

Edit-I left out a 6 somewhere there.

myfeelings

hucklebuck wrote: »

I don't doubt that you know about breeding, I am slowly learning bit by bit from the missus.

I was just using Snaafi as an example of a well bred horse that two major players thought was going to be a great racehorse and useful at stud yet failed on both counts.

Yes, i am aware of Danehill and Rainbows problems.

Sorry I don't follow: "but why a stallion is put down for know reason i deem that quite unfair" ?

I think you'll find on the previous pages the reason i commented on this thread was because it was said that Urban Sea should not have been covered by Invincible Spirit no reason was given and i find this unfair as the horse deserved his chance.

On Snaafi Dancer i still dont see where your coming from the reason of the previous comments where solely on the mating of a mare who's resulting foal would never have been sold. Urban Sea was top class same cant be said for Snaafi Dancers dam unfortunately.

admiralofthefleet

myfeelings wrote: »

Ok Invincible Spirits group 1 wasn't fantastic but when Urban Sea went to him he proved that he could upgrade his mares had produced group winners from ordinary books that is the reason that Urban Sea went to him and has now proved he is a top sire. A TOP CLASS RACEHORSE ISN'T ALWAYS A TOP CLASS STALLION. Invincible Spirit done it the hard way and deserved a mare of Urban Sea's quality

Harsh in what way i dont think you know the breeding game. He was fragile, unproven and not worthy of a mare of Urban Sea's quality. Giants Causeway hadn't shown that he was a sire of sires then and Green Desert had i know ages are different but it is all facts, these come into consideration on matings. And Rainbow Quest is a horse that passes on fragility that is a negative also as he is the broodmare isre of FSITS

Good racehorses dont always make good stallions. Invincible Spirit was a good racehorse and is now a good stallion. Footstepsinthesand was a good enough racehorse(but he didn't show enough on the track) and is now a poor stallion.

shergar was an example of this wasnt he?

UrbanSea

And George Washington stands out as one

And Brigadier Gerard.

UrbanSea

And Galileo.





:cool:

myfeelings

UrbanSea wrote: »

I said that about Footstepsinthesand exceot that he was younger than him and less exposed than him.
I don't think i'd say Invincible Spirit had sonsistently good results on track.
His record reads 4-1-1-4-6-4-1-9-1-2-1-4-1-5-6-1. Hardly what makes a super stallion on paper,but as we've said,a race performance doesn't necessarily make their stud record.

I've already given some that you commented on,how many more would you like?

Edit-I left out a 6 somewhere there.

I dont want to be coming across as rude in this thread.

I started commenting on this thread because i thought your comment about Invincible Spirit was wrong. Then when i questioned what you said your answers have justified my reasons for questioning your post in the beginning. You have been unable to pick a stallion that could have covered Urban Sea and that Invincible Spirit fully deserved his chance.I'm not saying that what ever stallions you say are wrong but i will give my opinion on why they probably wouldnt have been chosen and why they probably should have been considered for her in 2008. Born To Sea could be useless but was rightly sired by Invincible Spirit.

myfeelings

UrbanSea wrote: »

And George Washington stands out as one

Ya he really was

UrbanSea

You're not coming across as rude,don't worry about it. It's nice to see some new faces around here lately,and I hope to see you around during the flat season as it gets quiet around here after the National.

I think the Coolmore ones would have been best as said,but evidently not if they're not going to be using them,so fair enough that Invincible Spirit got a shot. I just don't think it'll be a Derby winner,I'd worry about the stamina,even if Urban Sea had it.

hucklebuck

myfeelings wrote: »

Urban Sea was top class same cant be said for Snaafi Dancers dam unfortunately.

The reason I mentioned Snaafi was no matter how much you know/ think you know nobody can predict how good a horse is going to be based on his geneaology.

There is a line back to War Admiral / Man O War through Bupers, i would hardly say there was no class in her in all fairness. Also do you think Dr O Brien would have told Sangster to keep bidding to that level if he though Snaafi was a pig?

I referred to you comment about a horse being destroyed when replying to me but I never said anything of the sort and you ignored it.

UrbanSea

And another.

Kingsgate Native had great potential as a stallion.

myfeelings

I dont follow the last bit of your comment there hucklebuck at all.

As for Born To Sea having enough stamina for a Derby i think he should because his dam was a 1m 4f mare his 2 half brothers stayed it and although Invincible Spirit adds speed he could also add a small bit of stamina to the mix because he is stouter bred than he showed on the track. By the looks of it he should be a Derby horse.

UrbanSea

You could be right,but still remains guesswork.
One thing putting me off would be when Urban Sea gave foal to Green Desert's foals. 5th in the Oaks but nowhere near. Could have Guineas written on it.

myfeelings

UrbanSea wrote: »

And another.

Kingsgate Native had great potential as a stallion.

Kingsgate Native was an out an out sprinter just like Invincible Spirit. I dont think that Invincible Spirit would have been picked in his first few years at stud for Urban Sea because it wouldnt really make sense covering her with a sprinter, but Invincible Spirit showed that his progeny excel over varying distances something that Kingsgate Native couldnt have shown because he had no offspring( never either). It sounds kind of peculiar the way i said that!
His pedigree is also very weak apart from a 1000 guineas winner under his 3rd dam and his sire is somewhat poor and is not a sire of sires.