Cost of Petrol

rodento

With Petrol going over €1.50 at the pumps, what are the parties going to do about it

Considering at least 60% of it is tax's

Hogzy

Between now and the time oil runs out Petrol will do nothing but go up in price. If any reduction is given it will only be a few cents, And that will have disappeared within 6 months guaranteed.

GSF

Any decrease in tax on petrol would have to be offset somewhere else - where exactly?
Income - no;
property - widely unpopular;
service charges - more unpopular still

so unless a tax can be found that is popular i dont think the tax is coming down anytime soon

rodento

High cost of petrol will destroy this ecomony, as its inflationary.We need to costs not increase them and all the tax's on petrol are unnecessary.

People will stop travelling, weekend breaks west etc... And prices of goods will go through the roof

Liam Byrne

GSF wrote: »

Any decrease in tax on petrol would have to be offset somewhere else - where exactly?

It's not a decrease.......it's a "keeping it at the same level".

The fact that it's a percentage means that every time it goes up, we get hammered even more and the government get cash they hadn't even planned for.

If it was a fixed amount (ideally fixed at the level it was back when petrol was under €1) then they wouldn't actually "lose" anything.

Hogzy

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The fact that it's a percentage means that every time it goes up, we get hammered even more and the government get cash they hadn't even planned for.

Thats a good point i hadnt thought about that. That would be the reason for the large hikes in fuel prices despite oil prices barely moving. If oil prices change even minutely then tax could double or triple the increase to the consumer.

Is Vat on fuel calculated before or after the duties/levies have been paid. I presume after?

After.
Clever isn't it..

Theres a level of cutting back on journeys starting to happen now that will make it sensible for governments to review this farce.

Hogzy

Deleted User wrote: »

After.
Clever isn't it..

Theres a level of cutting back on journeys starting to happen now that will make it sensible for governments to review this farce.

Definetly. I (amongst alot of people) buy my fuel by the € instead of by the Litre so its harder to see the price impact. But i have noticed lately that €20 is barely enough to get me one quarter of a tank. It now costs me nearly €60-€70 to do a roundtrip from Cork to Dublin in the car. I would bus it but that takes 4-5 hours as there is no express bus service between Ireland largest cities (which is farce in itself),

The train is nearly as expensive as the car and when you filter in taxi expenses around Dublin its just not worth it.

Flying is another good option but driving to airport, parking (Cost), delays with flights, bus from Dublin airport to City (Cost/traffic).

Driving is still the only viable option for me despite it killing my wallet.

ei.sdraob

Hogzy wrote: »

Definetly. I (amongst alot of people) buy my fuel by the € instead of by the Litre so its harder to see the price impact. But i have noticed lately that €20 is barely enough to get me one quarter of a tank. It now costs me nearly €60-€70 to do a roundtrip from Cork to Dublin in the car. I would bus it but that takes 4-5 hours as there is no express bus service between Ireland largest cities (which is farce in itself),

The train is nearly as expensive as the car and when you filter in taxi expenses around Dublin its just not worth it.

Flying is another good option but driving to airport, parking (Cost), delays with flights, bus from Dublin airport to City (Cost/traffic).

Driving is still the only viable option for me despite it killing my wallet.

Is that the sounds of the Greens rubbing their hands together with excitement at your plight I hear? Sure cant you use (the non-existent) public transport they would say??
Yes yes I can see the future now where we all drive donkey and cart, well that's until they start taxing methane coming out of their rear, oh wait...

Tarobot

It's incredible ironic that you target the Greens in a thread about petrol prices. A main tenet of Green Party policy is to tackle our dependency on fossil fuels, thus not leaving us open to volatile international fuel markets.Plus the taxes on petrol already existed before Greens got into power.

ei.sdraob

Tarobot wrote: »

It's incredible ironic that you target the Greens in a thread about petrol prices. A main tenet of Green Party policy is to tackle our dependency on fossil fuels, thus not leaving us open to volatile international fuel markets.Plus the taxes on petrol already existed before Greens got into power.

So it's all the Greens fault + bizarre comments about methane and reinforcement of ignorant myths. Don't you get bored repeating yourself?

Wait what? how is adding more taxes onto petrol helps "tackle" dependency?? Can you illustrate whether a cent collected from the new Carbon taxes introduced by Greens went into anything "Green" or maybe even public transport?


As is clearly illustrated by the chart below (few months old) and by up to date figures the main cost of petrol/diesel in Ireland are taxes
if all these taxes are removed or just few cents added (like in some states across the pond) then we can easily absorb rises of world oil prices up to 300$ a barrel and still have cheaper petrol than now
its not OPEC/Russians fleecing us but our own government who will spend this money on such fine undertakings such as NAMA, CPA and Anglo

ei.sdraob wrote: »

anyways someone was looking for breakdown of petrol, the latest i could find is this from november 2010


so year roughly 2/3rds of the price is a tax of one form or another...

Tarobot

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Wait what? how is adding more taxes onto petrol helps "tackle" dependency??

Please point out where in my post I said that.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Can you illustrate whether a cent collected from the new Carbon taxes introduced by Greens went into anything "Green" or maybe even public transport?

€50m of it has been earmarked to pay for SEAI energy efficiency measures. Regardless, as a Pigouvian tax, a carbon tax is considered to rectify a market failure and is not considered to distort. In the current economic situation, there is a strong argument against the full hypothecation of the carbon tax as we shift our tax base from cyclical business taxes to more stable taxes, including consumption taxes.

ei.sdraob

Tarobot wrote: »

Please point out where in my post I said that.

You claim the greens are helping tackle dependency,

far from it I say, their current energy policy would mean we would be dependant on UK when the wind doesnt blow (only 19% availability for wind in 2010 on average at any time) and still be dependant on burning fossil fuels

Tarobot wrote: »

€50m of it has been earmarked to pay for SEAI energy efficiency measures. Regardless, as a Pigouvian tax, a carbon tax is considered to rectify a market failure and is not considered to distort.

Ah yes we rectify a "market failure" by outsourcing pollution elsewhere

Tarobot wrote: »

In the current economic situation, there is a strong argument against the full hypothecation of the carbon tax as we shift our tax base from cyclical business taxes to more stable taxes, including consumption taxes.

Moving to once-off "consumption" taxes worked great for the economy before :rolleyes:

Tarobot

ei.sdraob wrote: »

You claim the greens are helping tackle dependency,

far from it I say, their current energy policy would mean we would be dependant on UK when the wind doesnt blow (only 19% availability for wind in 2010 on average at any time) and still be dependant on burning fossil fuels

Not true The All Island Grid Study showed our grid is perfectly capable of integrating 40% wind. If you'd like to point out the flaws in the study, please do so.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Ah yes we rectify a "market failure" by outsourcing pollution elsewhere

You're a little bit obsessed with that thread but I've read it and you failed to prove your point.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Moving to once-off "consumption" taxes worked great for the economy before :rolleyes:

Do you understand what a consumption tax is? The very fact that you defined it as a "once-off consumption tax" would suggest that you don't. The OECD identifies consumption taxes as the second least damaging to an economy, after a property tax. You think they're wrong?

Anyway, on topic: I don't think any of the parties would do anything to reduce it. It's a source of vital tax revenue.

ei.sdraob

Tarobot wrote: »

Not true The All Island Grid Study showed our grid is perfectly capable of integrating 40% wind. If you'd like to point out the flaws in the study, please do so.

Go to the linked page, download the generation data for 2010
the average at any (half hourly) point throughout the year is 299MW from an average installed capacity of 1500MW in 2010, thats under 20% availability for wind in Ireland in 2010 the figures are there look at them
that means 80% of the time we had to either go back to burning and/or importing
for all the billions spend and the heavy subsidies thats a crazy waste of money and taxes on such an unreliable energy source

Tarobot wrote: »

You're a little bit obsessed with that thread but I've read it and you failed to prove your point.

Its a fine example of how the Greens are addressing "externalities" and "failure the market" and exposes them for the hypocrites they are.

rodento

Forget the greens just for a mo, what is the real cost of rising fuel costs

If they go up any higher, you can guarantee the cost of public transport will go up as well.

Second cars will be seen as a necessary which we can no longer afford, so families will get rid of them, leading to a reduction in the tax take and which will in turn lead to taxes going up else where to deal with the short fall.

The government can't really expect people to pay for stelth taxes if it takes more from source, there has to be a point where the whole lot becomes un-sustainable.

Simply put the price of petrol in ireland if its not tackled will become a huge threat to our way of life

Tarobot

What importance do petrol and fuel prices have in relation to the other costs that impact on our competitiveness? Is it the most important?

Hogzy

Tarobot wrote: »

What importance do petrol and fuel prices have in relation to the other costs that impact on our competitiveness? Is it the most important?

Not the MOST important but fuel costs affect a lot more people than just the motoring community. Most items that are sold on a shelf will probably have to go up in price because of the increase in delivery costs. Notably food.

ei.sdraob

Hogzy wrote: »

Not the MOST important but fuel costs affect a lot more people than just the motoring community. Most items that are sold on a shelf will probably have to go up in price because of the increase in delivery costs. Notably food.

Those customers also have to get to the shops somehow...

GSF

rodento wrote: »

Simply put the price of petrol in ireland if its not tackled will become a huge threat to our way of life

And running a €20bn a year deficit wont? Better get used to some lifestyle changes over the next 4 years.

alentejo

Yes

We are all going to have to drive al ot less. Car journeys will be used for special occasions only in the future. Anyway, even now, petrol is still cheaper in Ireland than a lot of other countries incl Germany

Check out

http://www.aaireland.ie/AA/Motoring-advice/Petrol-Prices.aspx

kippy

GSF wrote: »

And running a €20bn a year deficit wont? Better get used to some lifestyle changes over the next 4 years.

Indeed.
However getting that defict down works both ways, reducing expenditure and increasing income however, the cost of fuel is a major driver in the economy of costs, costs to business and costs to the individual.
As mentioned already every couple of cent rise in the "material" adds almost the same again in taxes. While net wages and income decreases across the country the price of fuel and all that it drives continues to go up - something is going to give.

dynamick

Carbon tax is to double from €15 to €30 per tonne over the course of the coming 4 years as part of the EU-IMF program for Ireland. First rise is due in 2012, next in 2014.

This is bad for long distance commuters and anyone whose lifestyle or income depends on heavy energy use. Realistically, Ireland is unlikely to cut any tax in the medium term.

Lastly, Ireland has a binding commitment in the renewables directive to source 10% of energy for transport from renewable sources and to reduce overall emissions by 20% by 2020 compared to 1990.

So fuel price cuts aren't really on the cards anywhere in Europe.

Koyasan

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Go to the linked page, download the generation data for 2010
the average at any (half hourly) point throughout the year is 299MW from an average installed capacity of 1500MW in 2010, thats under 20% availability for wind in Ireland in 2010 the figures are there look at them
that means 80% of the time we had to either go back to burning and/or importing
for all the billions spend and the heavy subsidies thats a crazy waste of money and taxes on such an unreliable energy source

The European Super grid which the Greens have been laying the foundations for addresses many of those issues, allowing excess energy elsewhere ot be used in times of decreases in national renewable capacity.

Ireland's annual fossil fuel bill is €6 billion, and any decrease in that should be welcomed. Remember, that's annual, making investments in renewables far more valuabelin the long term.

Also, that annual figure pre-supposes an oil price that is stable and lower than what it is now. We all know that that bill will only increase with the price of oil without heavy investment in renewables and incentives for consumers to change behaviour now before the economic effects become catastrophic.

kippy

Koyasan wrote: »

The European Super grid which the Greens have been laying the foundations for addresses many of those issues, allowing excess energy elsewhere ot be used in times of decreases in national renewable capacity.

Ireland's annual fossil fuel bill is €6 billion, and any decrease in that should be welcomed. Remember, that's annual, making investments in renewables far more valuabelin the long term.

Also, that annual figure pre-supposes an oil price that is stable and lower than what it is now. We all know that that bill will only increase with the price of oil without heavy investment in renewables and incentives for consumers to change behaviour now before the economic effects become catastrophic.

Are you a Green party supporter by any chance?

Its strange how people give the greens credit for this kind of thing when most political parties HAVE been moving towards this for a long time.

dan_d

Interesting (and infuriating) topic.

While I agree that our reliance on fossil fuels is a major problem, I think we are going about tackling this entirely the wrong way.

Slapping higher and higher taxes on everything does not change the fact that a large portion of this country's population simply does not have the access to public transport that our Ministers seem to think they do. And I'm not only referring to those in rural areas.

I'm living in North County Dublin and have been a train user for years. Yet it is cheaper and quicker for me to get into Dublin in my car. And that's not taking account of the hours of my life I have wasted standing on platforms listening to "The X.XX train to Dublin Pearse is delayed by approximately X minutes due to...a points problem/leaves on the line/no excuse at all", or the awkwardness of trying to arrange a day around IE's excuse for a timetable. Since the car park charges have been added it would cost 10eur to get to town and back (and prices are due to rise again, as announced today). I have to drive to the station as it's in the middle of 2 villages. The bus does run there, but it is not timed to coincide with the arrival of a train...either the bus arrives at the station as the train pulls out, or you've to get a bus a good 40 mins before that (and assuming the bus arrives at all), you spend ages standing on a platform waiting, and then standing at a bus stop waiting on the way home.

It is absolutely delusional of the Green Party to think that they can solve our problems by taxing us to high heaven. And the same applies to all politicians, many of whom, in the next sentence, condemn Metro North as some sort of frivolous expenditure. They don't seem to realise that in order to cut the dependence on the car they HAVE to provide an alternative. And they are not providing any kind of alternative. They're not even trying to upgrade the current system, let alone build anything new.

As far as I can see the only part of the country that has a semi-decent public transport system is South County Dublin. Not the environs....the south of the city. Everywhere else is grossly underserved, particularly since the explosion of the endless housing estates everywhere. Were we to do things properly, we should have made it mandatory for every developer building a housing estate to build bus stops in/at the estate entrances, AND contribute extensively to the financing of the extension of bus routes, and in some cases, train/DART lines to in or near the estates.If they could afford to pay millions for the land, and overcharge people for shoe boxes, then 20% of their profit is not a big ask to pay to the Gov to allow Bus Eireann/IE to develop their services further.And it costs next to nothing to put a bus stop on a footpath as part of the construction.

Of course, that's what happens in efficient countries.And it would also assume that the money would go to the correct places, and not be squirreled away into some black hole.

To get back to the point at hand, it goes even further that the fuel prices. We are charged a whole heap of money for cars, due to taxes on car sales. We then have to pay Motor Tax every year. On top of that we pay tax on our petrol at the pump.People don't seem to realise that we are being charged 3 times over (possibly even 4, I can't remember the 4th tax), for owning and running a car. And it's a necessity for almost everyone in this country to have a car, because there is no alternative mode of transport for many.

Personally, I've been recently looking at changing cars. I'm looking at 2 year old cars up North for approx 8k - 12k...nothing major, maybe a Fiesta/Peugeot 307/Volkswagen Polo size, second hand. Down here, the same cars cost over 14k minimum. Why on earth would I buy a car here??? Even with sterling change and VRT, it works out cheaper to buy up North.

We need to start spelling this out to our politicians, as once again, we are completely being taken advantage of. And if they won't listen - I, for one, will take my business elsewhere.

Heroditas

Tarobot wrote: »

€50m of it has been earmarked to pay for SEAI energy efficiency measures. Regardless, as a Pigouvian tax, a carbon tax is considered to rectify a market failure and is not considered to distort.

A whole €50m .... what about the remaining €300m or so of the money raised by the Carbon Tax?
They should just call it a rise in excise and duty and be done with it instead of triumphantly declaring the increase is a "carbon tax".
It all goes into the same revenus pot anyway.
The only people who seem so desperate to get this tax acknowledged are the Greens and their acolytes.
To everyone else, it’s simply a tax that is increasing their living costs and hitting them hard in their pockets.

petroltimer

Hogzy wrote: »

Definetly. I (amongst alot of people) buy my fuel by the € instead of by the Litre so its harder to see the price impact. But i have noticed lately that €20 is barely enough to get me one quarter of a tank. It now costs me nearly €60-€70 to do a roundtrip from Cork to Dublin in the car. I would bus it but that takes 4-5 hours as there is no express bus service between Ireland largest cities (which is farce in itself),

The train is nearly as expensive as the car and when you filter in taxi expenses around Dublin its just not worth it.

Flying is another good option but driving to airport, parking (Cost), delays with flights, bus from Dublin airport to City (Cost/traffic).

Driving is still the only viable option for me despite it killing my wallet.

There is an express between dublin and galway €10 each way good value if you live in galway, i work in dublin and am from 20 miles outside galway so car is the only option when i make a visit home, i say it costs me about €30 in diesel

Hogzy

petroltimer wrote: »

There is an express between dublin and galway €10 each way good value if you live in galway, i work in dublin and am from 20 miles outside galway so car is the only option when i make a visit home, i say it costs me about €30 in diesel

€20 return on a bus :eek:

djpbarry

ei.sdraob wrote: »

for all the billions spend and the heavy subsidies thats a crazy waste of money and taxes on such an unreliable energy source

Still blowing that trumpet? You yourself have produced figures on other threads that show onshore wind generation to be one of the most cost-effective means of electricity generation around. But that’s a topic for another thread.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand...

rodento wrote: »

High cost of petrol will destroy this ecomony...

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Those customers also have to get to the shops somehow...

dynamick wrote: »

This is bad for long distance commuters and anyone whose lifestyle or income depends on heavy energy use.

The above illustrates the fundamental problem with how the Irish economy developed over the last 10 – 20 years – there’s something seriously wrong when a car is considered an absolute necessity.

dan_d wrote: »

Were we to do things properly, we should have made it mandatory for every developer building a housing estate to build bus stops in/at the estate entrances, AND contribute extensively to the financing of the extension of bus routes, and in some cases, train/DART lines to in or near the estates.If they could afford to pay millions for the land, and overcharge people for shoe boxes, then 20% of their profit is not a big ask to pay to the Gov to allow Bus Eireann/IE to develop their services further.

Fair enough. But of course, everyone was happy enough to go ahead and buy the aforementioned shoe-boxes (and boost the state coffers with more stamp duty) in the complete absence of adequate transport links. People also knew full well (or at least, they should have known) that they were tying themselves into a car-dependent lifestyle, which would involve the paying of VRT, road tax, car insurance and petrol tax for the foreseeable future. So now we have a situation whereby the living standards of a large number of people are dependent on low fuel prices, although personally, I think the extent of this dependence is being exaggerated.

dan_d wrote: »

...it's a necessity for almost everyone in this country to have a car....

Is it? So what happens in the event that someone cannot afford a car? How do they manage?

kippy

djpbarry wrote: »

Still blowing that trumpet? You yourself have produced figures on other threads that show onshore wind generation to be one of the most cost-effective means of electricity generation around. But that’s a topic for another thread.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand...



The above illustrates the fundamental problem with how the Irish economy developed over the last 10 – 20 years – there’s something seriously wrong when a car is considered an absolute necessity.
Fair enough. But of course, everyone was happy enough to go ahead and buy the aforementioned shoe-boxes (and boost the state coffers with more stamp duty) in the complete absence of adequate transport links. People also knew full well (or at least, they should have known) that they were tying themselves into a car-dependent lifestyle, which would involve the paying of VRT, road tax, car insurance and petrol tax for the foreseeable future. So now we have a situation whereby the living standards of a large number of people are dependent on low fuel prices, although personally, I think the extent of this dependence is being exaggerated.
Is it? So what happens in the event that someone cannot afford a car? How do they manage?

DJP,
Have you got any kids?

Hogzy

djpbarry wrote: »

The above illustrates the fundamental problem with how the Irish economy developed over the last 10 – 20 years – there’s something seriously wrong when a car is considered an absolute necessity.
Fair enough. But of course, everyone was happy enough to go ahead and buy the aforementioned shoe-boxes (and boost the state coffers with more stamp duty) in the complete absence of adequate transport links. People also knew full well (or at least, they should have known) that they were tying themselves into a car-dependent lifestyle, which would involve the paying of VRT, road tax, car insurance and petrol tax for the foreseeable future. So now we have a situation whereby the living standards of a large number of people are dependent on low fuel prices, although personally, I think the extent of this dependence is being exaggerated.
Is it? So what happens in the event that someone cannot afford a car? How do they manage?

Not everyone lives in the center of London djpbarry where public transport will take you anywhere.
Some people live in rural area or have to commute to areas where either public transport will not take them or it is not feasible for public transport to get them there within a reasonable time.

E.T.

Completely agree Hogzy. Sick of seeing posts giving out about people not taking public transport. My workplace is about 15 mins drive from my home, but there's absolutely no public transport between the areas. I'd love to take public transport, but it's not an option.

If I go to Dublin (from Cork county), I drive, because a return on the train costs €71, plus the cost of driving to Cork or Mallow, plus paying for parking for the weekend. The bus isn't worth getting, last time I did, I queued for 45 mins for the return journey (with a pre-purchased return ticket), luckily I got on the bus, but most of the queue behind me didn't. Not chancing it next time.

djpbarry

Hogzy wrote: »

Not everyone lives in the center of London djpbarry where public transport will take you anywhere.

No, it won’t. It’ll take you a lot of places, for an extortionate price, provided the necessary lines are not closed for engineering works or tube drivers are not on strike.

Hogzy wrote: »

Some people live in rural area or have to commute to areas where either public transport will not take them or it is not feasible for public transport to get them there within a reasonable time.

Again, that’s fair enough. But the point I’m making is that if you choose to live in a rural area, you’re essentially choosing to be fairly dependent on a car, because public transport simply cannot link up every town and village in the country with every other (in any country, not just Ireland).

With regard to suburbs and commuter towns (such as Lucan, for example, where I spent some of my formative years), I accept that public transport in many cases is not good enough. But then, when people who live in said commuter towns bought their houses, they knew that the public transport was not good enough, but they still went ahead and bought, thereby tying themselves into a car-dependent lifestyle. So it’s all very well complaining about the price of petrol and the lack of public transport now, but the inhabitants of said suburbs were free to pass on the purchase of their properties, on the grounds that insufficient public transport infrastructure was in place at the time. But they didn’t, so here we are and I have absolutely no idea where we go from here.

Hogzy

djpbarry wrote: »

But then, when people who live in said commuter towns bought their houses, they knew that the public transport was not good enough, but they still went ahead and bought, thereby tying themselves into a car-dependent lifestyle. So it’s all very well complaining about the price of petrol and the lack of public transport now, but the inhabitants of said suburbs were free to pass on the purchase of their properties, on the grounds that insufficient public transport infrastructure was in place at the time. But they didn’t, so here we are and I have absolutely no idea where we go from here.

They more than likely bought a house in a commuter town or suburb because they could not afford a house closer to the Central Business District (CBD) where they work. House prices within the M50 during 'the boom' were extortionate and some/most first time buyers simply could not afford to live there. The same goes for every other city in Ireland. Cork saw MAJOR urban sprawl over the last 20yrs. The further from the city you are the less you pay for a house to an extent. So having to rely on the car to get you to work was an obvious option. Therefore complaining about petrol prices is perfectly justifiable.

Its ok for you djpbarry, you are probably renting a property only a few minutes walk from your workplace but when you get a family such a living situation wont suit you and you will HAVE to move to a house. Then when you have children and they go to different schools you will probably end up buying a car too. Unless you would rather waste your entire day riding the bus to different schools, then to tesco, then maybe to a friends house etc etc.

Get real buddy. Judging by the forum you moderate i will assume that you wont be convinced easily that some people just have to rely on their car.

djpbarry

Hogzy wrote: »

They more than likely bought a house in a commuter town or suburb because they could not afford a house closer to the Central Business District (CBD) where they work. House prices within the M50 during 'the boom' were extortionate and some/most first time buyers simply could not afford to live there.

Sure. The option was pay a ****load of money for a shoebox in the middle of nowhere, or pay ****loads more for something reasonably near the city. There was of course also the option of not actually buying a property at all.

Hogzy wrote: »

The same goes for every other city in Ireland. Cork saw MAJOR urban sprawl over the last 20yrs. The further from the city you are the less you pay for a house to an extent. So having to rely on the car to get you to work was an obvious option. Therefore complaining about petrol prices is perfectly justifiable.

I’m not saying that relying on a car to get you about was not an option – of course it was. The point I’m making is that it was certainly not the only option. But people in Ireland over the last 10 – 20 years have increasingly chosen a car-dependent lifestyle and now Irish society has to live with the consequences of those collective decisions. Now, retrospectively implementing a public transport system for highly distributed, sparsely populated urban areas is going to be one hell of a challenge.

Hogzy wrote: »

Its ok for you djpbarry, you are probably renting a property only a few minutes walk from your workplace...

No, I have to get the tube.

Hogzy wrote: »

...but when you get a family such a living situation wont suit you and you will HAVE to move to a house.

Possibly, but I don’t intend to live in a house that is completely cut off from the public transport network.

Hogzy wrote: »

Then when you have children and they go to different schools you will probably end up buying a car too.

It’s possible I’ll buy a car in the future, I don’t know (although if I’m living in London it probably won’t make financial sense). However, I certainly won’t be claiming that I can’t live without it and I had no option but to buy a car.

Hogzy wrote: »

Judging by the forum you moderate i will assume that you wont be convinced easily that some people just have to rely on their car.

Where have I said otherwise? I have already stated (at least once) that I accept there are people who need a car to get about. However, they chose to put themselves in that position, did they not?

gurramok

It was the councils that zoned the land for all the new housing with incentives from the political elite. Nothing can be done about tens of thousands of people living outside the canals in Dublin. The councils effort was to build thousands of apartments to make people live in the city, only thing is they allowed them to be built shoebox style of 35sqm in size which is big enough for just 1 person to live in. Large liveable apartments are a tiny minority of the housing stock in the city djpbarry.

And yet the councils still gave permission to build giant business parks on the outskirts of the city which in turn have to be commuted to by workers from various places.

I live on the coast in D4, I work in one of those distant business parks in D15. It takes double the time on public transport than in the car even in the worst of the cross city traffic mainly due to the lack of cross city one way bus routes and lack of buses to get me to work early in the morning. Same can be said for alot of people in the city. The same affect can be seen at night time when buses stop at 11:30pm, this destroys city centre nightlife.

Only solution to all this is a proper public transport network and all we got in the last 10 years was 2 Luas lines that don't even connect. Lets pray that some wonder electric vehicle is invented which will replace petrol but we'll still have the congestion!

On petrol, I find it amusing how the Greens\environmetalists who are punishing the poor for hikes in taxes on petrol totally ignore the fact that many big nations in the world who are the biggest polluters from car pollution have dirt cheap petrol. To put it simply, Ireland is small fry in car pollution in the world and the recent reduction in emissions here is down to the recession.

kippy

DJP, I would ask again whether you have kids or not?
It is exceptionally difficult transporting young kids/toddlers and all that goes with them on public transport, even if that public transport goes to where you want it to go.


As many people of your persuasion fail to remember, there are many people who MUST live outside of cities for numerous reasons. While some of those people may have made a choice about their reliance on cars others don't have a choice.

I live in Galway City - within the city boundary. I am purchasing a bike in the next few weeks to get to work - positives every side, however using public transport in this city to get to work is simply not feasible - cost - routes and timeliness as well as a complete lack of sheltered bus shelters.
My wife works outside the city (Loughrea) I really dont know how she could get there and back via public transport?


Not everyone can life in a "built up area" and these people, while you suggest that the made a conscious decision to rely on the car, have every right to question the policies that have increased their cost of living and indeed the cost of living of those who do use public transport as well.

dynamick

kippy wrote: »

DJP, I would ask again whether you have kids or not?
It is exceptionally difficult transporting young kids/toddlers and all that goes with them on public transport, even if that public transport goes to where you want it to go.

It is just about possible to carry two kids on a bike with bags to school. Have a look at this thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056152789

I live in Galway City - within the city boundary. I am purchasing a bike in the next few weeks to get to work - positives every side, however using public transport in this city to get to work is simply not feasible - cost - routes and timeliness as well as a complete lack of sheltered bus shelters.

When I lived in Galway I gave up on cycling because it rained so often and so heavily compared to Dublin. You might be made of sterner stuff but I would get some kind of rain cloak/tent thingy.

My wife works outside the city (Loughrea) I really dont know how she could get there and back via public transport?

There are two separate bus services from citylink and Healy Tours offering hourly frequency and bus eireann goes every half hour. It's only a 35 minute trip. I'm guessing you live nowhere near the bus route.

Galway is very poorly planned for public transport. There is only recently an attempt at putting in bus lanes, pedestrianisation came very late in the city centre. Public demand has focused on more ring roads, bypasses and roundabouts. Your western development commissions got that pointless rail line to limerick reopened instead of developing a commuter rail service along the Oranmore route. This is partly the fault of the local council for its short-sighted development plan but also central government who allowed such damaging development to take place. Ultimately the blame reverts to the citizens for choosing politicians with these policies.

In future we should plan residential and commercial developments around public transport corridors, we should take expected energy use into account in planning decisions and we should oblige local councils to include cycle routes and pedestrian shortcuts in their development plans. Local councils should not be allowed to make development plans that contravene regional planning guidelines just so that they can rake in more levies. All of these items were made law by the Planning & Development 2000 passed last year by John Gormley.

kippy

dynamick wrote: »

It is just about possible to carry two kids on a bike with bags to school. Have a look at this thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056152789

When I lived in Galway I gave up on cycling because it rained so often and so heavily compared to Dublin. You might be made of sterner stuff but I would get some kind of rain cloak/tent thingy.

There are two separate bus services from citylink and Healy Tours offering hourly frequency and bus eireann goes every half hour. It's only a 35 minute trip. I'm guessing you live nowhere near the bus route.

Galway is very poorly planned for public transport. There is only recently an attempt at putting in bus lanes, pedestrianisation came very late in the city centre. Public demand has focused on more ring roads, bypasses and roundabouts. Your western development commissions got that pointless rail line to limerick reopened instead of developing a commuter rail service along the Oranmore route. This is partly the fault of the local council for its short-sighted development plan but also central government who allowed such damaging development to take place. Ultimately the blame reverts to the citizens for choosing politicians with these policies.

In future we should plan residential and commercial developments around public transport corridors, we should take expected energy use into account in planning decisions and we should oblige local councils to include cycle routes and pedestrian shortcuts in their development plans. Local councils should not be allowed to make development plans that contravene regional planning guidelines just so that they can rake in more levies. All of these items were made law by the Planning & Development 2000 passed last year by John Gormley.

2 kids on a bike, with bags, in the rain with all the extra clothes, then have to change them afterwards - I'll have a read of that thread but I suspect thats completely unrealistic for the majority of the populace.
I live in Ballybane, one of the oldest areas of the city - its about a 15-20 minute walk to the GMIT the nearest stop. My wife carries a number of heavy items to school every day - the bus is not a practical way for her to get to work.
I agree with your final paragraph, however that doesnt alter the fact that we have a large tranch of the population that public transport does not work for and as such these people should have a right to their opinion.

To be honest, personally I am more worried about the knock on cost to consumers of the rise of transportation costs of good, rather than the cost to the individual.
Its difficult doing a bread run on a bike.

ei.sdraob

kippy wrote: »

Its difficult doing a bread run on a bike.

The eco fascists dont care if you starve, the less people the less carbon :rolleyes:

djpbarry wrote: »

Still blowing that trumpet?

Onshore wind is slightly cheaper when it blows, the other 80% of the time when there is no wind, you need to use backup high availability gas/oil turbines, and this i not cheap as illustrated by the costs below.

djpbarry wrote: »

The above illustrates the fundamental problem with how the Irish economy developed over the last 10 – 20 years – there’s something seriously wrong when a car is considered an absolute necessity.

I would use a donkey like the old days but your carbon taxes would tax its methane emissions (the things fart you know), maybe we should all go back to farming potatoes, sure it was a mighty great time we had then emigrating and all (ok scrap that one...)

gurramok wrote: »

On petrol, I find it amusing how the Greens\environmetalists who are punishing the poor for hikes in taxes on petrol totally ignore the fact that many big nations in the world who are the biggest polluters from car pollution have dirt cheap petrol. To put it simply, Ireland is small fry in car pollution in the world and the recent reduction in emissions here is down to the recession.

Other countries care about their people being employed and fed, the alternative is rioting, the FF/Green government has shown time and time again they dont care for employment (unless its their friends in select few sectors such as wind and banking)

dynamick

kippy wrote: »

To be honest, personally I am more worried about the knock on cost to consumers of the rise of transportation costs of good, rather than the cost to the individual.

Ireland is a low tax economy by OECD data and is now required to move to paying average rates of tax to bridge its deficit and comply with the terms of our creditors who naturally feel aggrieved at lending to a country that taxes its citizens more lightly than they tax their own. So tax rises have to come.
The questions are where is it least damaging to the economy to tax and which taxes will raise more revenue by raising rates (sometimes a rise in rates is followed by a drop in revenue)?
Income taxes and corporate taxes ?
VAT?
Fuel?
Excise?
Property tax?

Its difficult doing a bread run on a bike.

I have waterproof 40l panniers which means I can pick up stuff a couple of days a week on the way home from work and I don't have to spend saturday morning in a retail park.

It is a fair point that rises in fuel taxes affect people more outside urban areas. However there is a problem within urban areas of people using cars needlessly. There is a panzer division of 4X4s every morning outside my kid's primary school driven by people within 10 minutes walk. 40% of kids living within 2kms of school in Dublin are driven in.

kippy

dynamick wrote: »

Ireland is a low tax economy by OECD data and is now required to move to paying average rates of tax to bridge its deficit and comply with the terms of our creditors who naturally feel aggrieved at lending to a country that taxes its citizens more lightly than they tax their own. So tax rises have to come.
The questions are where is it least damaging to the economy to tax and which taxes will raise more revenue by raising rates (sometimes a rise in rates is followed by a drop in revenue)?
Income taxes and corporate taxes ?
VAT?
Fuel?
Excise?
Property tax?

I have waterproof 40l panniers which means I can pick up stuff a couple of days a week on the way home from work and I don't have to spend saturday morning in a retail park.

It is a fair point that rises in fuel taxes affect people more outside urban areas. However there is a problem within urban areas of people using cars needlessly. There is a panzer division of 4X4s every morning outside my kid's primary school driven by people within 10 minutes walk. 40% of kids living within 2kms of school in Dublin are driven in.

Have you a link to that OECD report? I want to see what it classes as taxation - and I suspect that is changing fast btw.
Has lowering tax on fuel ever been done/tried to attempt stimulate recovery?

I was speaking more about the guys that have to deliver the bread to the shops in the first place as opposed to the guy who has to buy it from the shops.

Yep, there are issues around vehicle use dropping kids to school who live 10 minutes walk from it but that is a sad reflection of the fear in our society moreso than anything to do with cars.
Parents are afraid their child will get abducted cos "its so common nowadays" on their walk to school so they take them in the car and to be honest most schools would not let a child home on their own or even in a group without some guardian picking them up.

dan_d

djpbarry wrote: »

Fair enough. But of course, everyone was happy enough to go ahead and buy the aforementioned shoe-boxes (and boost the state coffers with more stamp duty) in the complete absence of adequate transport links. People also knew full well (or at least, they should have known) that they were tying themselves into a car-dependent lifestyle, which would involve the paying of VRT, road tax, car insurance and petrol tax for the foreseeable future. So now we have a situation whereby the living standards of a large number of people are dependent on low fuel prices, although personally, I think the extent of this dependence is being exaggerated.

Is it? So what happens in the event that someone cannot afford a car? How do they manage?

In answer to your first comment on my post....my point is not the living standards of people. My point is that the Government are not doing this properly.As far as I'm concerned they can add all the tax to petrol that they want, provided they offer people an alternative means of transport. They have not done this, and they do not intend to do it. I would happily ditch my car if I thought I had real means of getting around by public transport. I've spent a lot of time in major cities all over the world, and I absolutely love the fact that there's an integrated system in most - one ticket for all types of transport, everything runs well, the user is considered in the design of the system.It is simply not good enough to preach to people about their dependency on cars, add tax on onto everything without the first real clue about how the public transport system actually works. The most annoying part for me is that we had so much money in the last decade and we barely invested anything like we should have in our public transport system.And if it comes to it, now we'd get the work done for much cheaper - and we still won't do it.

Focusing on my area for the moment - the DART goes to Greystones. In the last 10 years, North County Dublin up to Drogheda has exploded population-wise. And the DART has made it 2 stops up the line to...Malahide.And that's it. A few more trains were added to the timetable, after being hard fought for, and now they're being taken away.Yet the ticket prices have increased several 100% since 2001 and we've to pay for parking, but the service has barely improved, and is now going backwards.

The buses, in an effort to make them more efficient and frequent (I use those words with caution), now run from Balbriggan to Swords, whereupon you change bus to get from Swords to the city. Previously they ran infrequently from Balbriggan to the city. Now it takes the same amount of time (probably more, if you factor in the waiting time in Swords), and costs more. But it's ok, because it's made the route out here look efficient.:rolleyes:

There is no way for me to get to say....Finglas, by public transport, without going into the city. I can't go from Lusk to Castleknock, without at least 2 buses, and one of them is a private bus service. How about if you lived in Donabate and worked in, say, Ashbourne?? Nothing.

I recently had an interview at 10am in Cork city centre. I drove down - because the earliest train gets me into Cork station at 10am.My other option was to fly down.....which would actually have been cheaper and quicker that the train, which says everything.

Do you see my point here? Yes, people bought houses, but developers were allowed to build those houses without any regard for location or population. For this, the planning boards are responsible. Any planner worth their salt should have looking at the bigger picture of transport, traffic problems, quality of life (the problem extends to lack of local shops, school facilities etc, but that's another discussion). No, they were all too busy rubbing their hands at the thoughts of the profits.At the end of the day, people needed somewhere to live, and there was nowhere else.

And in answer to your second question I have absolutely no idea how those who have no car manage. And I'm not being smart. My point was genuine. The few people I know who don't have cars (and don't drive) rely on other people for lifts. Or they live in the city centre (because they bought their houses in the 1980s) and use the bus service there.There aren't that many people out there with no car relying wholly on the pathetic excuse we have for public transport.

djpbarry

gurramok wrote: »

It was the councils that zoned the land for all the new housing with incentives from the political elite. Nothing can be done about tens of thousands of people living outside the canals in Dublin. The councils effort was to build thousands of apartments to make people live in the city, only thing is they allowed them to be built shoebox style of 35sqm in size which is big enough for just 1 person to live in. Large liveable apartments are a tiny minority of the housing stock in the city djpbarry.

I’m not sure what you’re getting at? Flats in the city are too small for you so you decided to live outside town. Fair enough.

gurramok wrote: »

I live on the coast in D4, I work in one of those distant business parks in D15.

Ok – your choice. When I lived in Dublin, I based myself in the city centre, largely because it made it much easier to get elsewhere in Dublin.

gurramok wrote: »

On petrol, I find it amusing how the Greens\environmetalists who are punishing the poor for hikes in taxes on petrol totally ignore the fact that many big nations in the world who are the biggest polluters from car pollution have dirt cheap petrol. To put it simply, Ireland is small fry in car pollution in the world and the recent reduction in emissions here is down to the recession.

Car ownership in Ireland is still lowish by EU standards, but car usage is pretty high. As of 2005, the average car in Ireland was travelling almost 17,000km per annum (according to SEI). That works out at 46km every single day – that’s just crazy.

djpbarry

kippy wrote: »

As many people of your persuasion fail to remember, there are many people who MUST live outside of cities for numerous reasons. While some of those people may have made a choice about their reliance on cars others don't have a choice.

Sorry, but that’s nonsense. Nobody is forced into any one particular lifestyle – you get to where you are based on the choices you have made.

kippy wrote: »

...most schools would not let a child home on their own or even in a group...

I find that very hard to believe.

dynamick wrote: »

Public demand has focused on more ring roads, bypasses and roundabouts.
...
Ultimately the blame reverts to the citizens for choosing politicians with these policies.

My point exactly. I’m not in any way disputing that public transport is poor in many parts of the country, but this ultimately results from the emphasis that was placed on road development over the last couple of decades, at the expense of public transport investment.

djpbarry

dan_d wrote: »

The most annoying part for me is that we had so much money in the last decade and we barely invested anything like we should have in our public transport system.

Probably because everything was being pumped into developing the national road network.

dan_d wrote: »

...the DART goes to Greystones. In the last 10 years, North County Dublin up to Drogheda has exploded population-wise. And the DART has made it 2 stops up the line to...Malahide.And that's it. A few more trains were added to the timetable, after being hard fought for, and now they're being taken away.Yet the ticket prices have increased several 100% since 2001...

Several hundred percent? Really?

Once again, I’m not saying that the DART (for example) could not be better – of course it could. However, it’s going to take major investment, involving major projects (such as the underground interconnector) to increase capacity. This kind of investment has largely been reserved for road projects (such as the port tunnel and the M50 upgrade) in the recent past.

dan_d wrote: »

There is no way for me to get to say....Finglas, by public transport, without going into the city. I can't go from Lusk to Castleknock, without at least 2 buses, and one of them is a private bus service. How about if you lived in Donabate and worked in, say, Ashbourne??

You see, now you’re being a bit unreasonable. No matter how good a public transport system is, there are always going to be limits, especially in a relatively small city like Dublin. Expecting to have fast, direct connections to wherever it is you might want to go is just not realistic, especially if the places in question are a fair distance outside the city centre.

dan_d wrote: »

Do you see my point here? Yes, people bought houses, but developers were allowed to build those houses without any regard for location or population. For this, the planning boards are responsible.

Once again, I’m not disputing this. But the question is, why did people, en masse, buy the badly-built properties in the poorly-planned communities?

dan_d wrote: »

And in answer to your second question I have absolutely no idea how those who have no car manage.

It’s really not that difficult. When I lived in Dublin, I couldn’t afford a car, so I had no option but to do without one. This obviously determined that I lived within walking/cycling distance of work, or that I lived near a reliable transport connection, but I still had a reasonably high standard of living.

dan_d wrote: »

There aren't that many people out there with no car relying wholly on the pathetic excuse we have for public transport.

Actually, there are. Car ownership in Ireland is still actually relatively low relative to other EU states – there are quite a few people out there who get by without cars.

ei.sdraob

djpbarry wrote: »

That works out at 46km every single day – that’s just crazy.

You live in London for gods sake
will you stop applying your way of life and world-view on a island of 6 million people, most of whom live outside the only major city, and the ones who do live in Dublin can't afford to live on the inside of the canals.


What is it with Greens and environmentalists trying to force their way of live and beliefs on other people, especially thru taxation and all sorts of authoritarian/fascist "incentives"
Do you think you are better than everyone else on this island because you live in one of the worlds major cities? what do you propose herd everyone into a ghetto so you can enjoy a depopulated country on your weekend out, thats perverse.


As has been shown petrol and oil are remarkably cheap despite the ups and downs of the markets with 2/3rds of the cost being taxes, and the Armageddon style fear-mongering from peak-oilists (we live in a world of abundant energy of all sorts, dont worry the world wont end in 2012)

gurramok

ei.sdraob wrote:

Other countries care about their people being employed and fed, the alternative is rioting, the FF/Green government has shown time and time again they dont care for employment (unless its their friends in select few sectors such as wind and banking)

http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/global_gasprices/

The biggest polluters of car pollution who are mostly likely driving the worst cars have the cheapest petrol.

A snapshot of the likely biggest offenders by population and number of absolute cars. Most of fuel costs are subsidised. http://img2.scoop.co.nz/media/pdfs/0705/carowners.pdf
Algeria $0.79
Egypt $1.21
Iran $1.51
Nigeria $1.67
Mexico $2.12
Indonesia $2.23
United States $2.62
South Africa $2.73
Pakistan $2.88
Philippines $2.95
Russia $3.02
China $3.05

Ireland $6.62

The poorer countries listed probably have car ownership rates of less than 10% but in much bigger markets hence higher number of absolute cars which puts them on the radar. Also they use homegrown 2 wheel transport alot as they cannot afford cars(Vietnam/Pakistan/India etc), thats alot of polluting fuel. Tehran, Iran for example is always congested and has regular smogs which kill people.

China has 75m cars so far and rising very fast http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90778/90860/7006415.html.

Along with the USA's 191m cars, where is the pressure to make the big countries who pollute the most via vehicle pollution pay more for their fuel?

kippy

djpbarry wrote: »

Sorry, but that’s nonsense. Nobody is forced into any one particular lifestyle – you get to where you are based on the choices you have made.
I find that very hard to believe.
My point exactly. I’m not in any way disputing that public transport is poor in many parts of the country, but this ultimately results from the emphasis that was placed on road development over the last couple of decades, at the expense of public transport investment.

Indeed you do, and many people chose to have a family and to bring up that family they generally cannot afford to live in inner cities.
Are you suggesting that people should not have kids???

Also, the people who MUST live outside of cities, well I suppose they do have a choice. Farmers are ones who I suppose have a choice. Are you suggesting that we give up on the people that produce materials for the rest of us?

Hard to believe but true in many national schools for kids of a certain age.

Look, this ideal utopian dream that many people tend to have have never thought about situations outside of their own.
I generally find they dont have kids, live in the middle of a city, usually renting, and have a stable job.
They've never had to think outside of this world and believe everyone should live in it.

Its plainly NOT practical and as such, while policies should move to making the country greener, those that dont have the public transport on their doorstep should be accomodated.

kippy

Just to clarify,
I am not condoning a complete reduction in taxes associated with fuel from now until the end of time.
I am condoning a reduction in fuel taxation levels fuel for a period of time UNTIL the country is on the way to a recovery.
This will help business, help the consumer and help the entire country.
Remember, our carbon output has gone down in the past few years from cars, more people unemployed, less business, less need for people in cars, I dont see what reducing the costs on those in business/working will do to harm the economy for a limited amount of years.

In the mean time those that are pushing a green agenda (again, not specificilly a problem with that) can continue to push the green cars/bikes/public transport/whatever.