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New Year's Resolutions? Brain Can Sabotage Success

  • 29-01-2011 2:27pm
    #1
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭


    This ties into what I was saying about tobacco control on the obesity thread. Environment is HUGE controller of what we eat.

    From http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=132627871
    1_HABITS_HEALTHBEAT.sff.jpg?t=1294367179&s=51

    Uh-oh, the new year's just begun and already you're finding it hard to keep those resolutions to junk the junk food, get off the couch or kick smoking. There's a biological reason a lot of our bad habits are so hard to break — they get wired into our brains.

    That's not an excuse to give up. Understanding how unhealthy behaviors become ingrained has scientists learning some tricks that may help good habits replace the bad.

    "Why are bad habits stronger? You're fighting against the power of an immediate reward," says Dr. Nora Volkow, director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse and an authority on the brain's pleasure pathway.

    It's the fudge vs. broccoli choice: Chocolate's yum factor tends to beat out the knowledge that sticking with veggies brings an eventual reward of lost pounds.

    "We all as creatures are hard-wired that way, to give greater value to an immediate reward as opposed to something that's delayed," Volkow says.

    Just how that bit of happiness turns into a habit involves a pleasure-sensing chemical named dopamine. It conditions the brain to want that reward again and again — reinforcing the connection each time — especially when it gets the right cue from your environment.

    People tend to overestimate their ability to resist temptations around them, thus undermining attempts to shed bad habits, says experimental psychologist Loran Nordgren, an assistant professor at Northwestern University's Kellogg School of Management.

    "People have this self-control hubris, this belief they can handle more than they can," says Nordgren, who studies the tug-of-war between willpower and temptation.

    In one experiment, he measured whether heavy smokers could watch a film that romanticizes the habit — called "Coffee and Cigarettes" — without taking a puff. Upping the ante, they'd be paid according to their level of temptation: Could they hold an unlit cigarette while watching? Keep the pack on the table? Or did they need to leave the pack in another room?

    Smokers who'd predicted they could resist a lot of temptation tended to hold the unlit cigarette — and were more likely to light up than those who knew better than to hang onto the pack, says Nordgren. He now is beginning to study how recovering drug addicts deal with real-world temptations.

    But temptation can be more insidious than how close at hand the cigarettes are.

    Always snack in front of your favorite TV show? A dopamine-rich part of the brain named the striatum memorizes rituals and routines that are linked to getting a particular reward, explains NIDA's Volkow. Eventually, those environmental cues trigger the striatum to make some behaviors almost automatic.

    Even scientists who recognize it can fall prey.

    "I don't like popcorn. But every time I go to the cinema, I have to eat it," Volkow says. "It's fascinating."

    Much of what scientists know about dopamine's role in habit formation comes from the study of alcohol and drug addiction, but it's a key player in more common habits, too, especially overeating.

    In fact, for anything that links an action and a reward, "dopamine is indispensable for the formation of these habits," Volkow says.

    A movement to pay people for behavior changes may exploit that connection, as some companies offer employees outright payments or insurance rebates for adopting better habits.

    It's not clear yet just how well a financial incentive substitutes as a reward. In one experiment, paying smokers at General Electric up to $750 to kick the habit nearly tripled the number who did, says Dr. Kevin Volpp, who directs the Center for Health Incentives at the University of Pennsylvania.

    A similar study that dangled dollars for weight loss found no difference — and environmental temptation might help explain the differing results.

    It's getting hard to smoke in public but "every time you walk down the street, there's lots of sources of high-calorie, tasty, low-cost food," Volpp says.

    However paying for behavior plays out, researchers say there are some steps that may help counter your brain's hold on bad habits:

    —Repeat, repeat, repeat the new behavior — the same routine at the same time of day. Resolved to exercise? Doing it at the same time of the morning, rather than fitting it in haphazardly, makes the striatum recognize the habit so eventually, "if you don't do it, you feel awful," says Volkow the neuroscientist, who's also a passionate runner.

    —Exercise itself raises dopamine levels, so eventually your brain will get a feel-good hit even if your muscles protest.

    —Reward yourself with something you really desire, Volkow stresses. You exercised all week? Stuck to your diet? Buy a book, a great pair of jeans, or try a fancy restaurant — safer perhaps than a box of cookies because the price inhibits the quantity.

    —Stress can reactivate the bad-habit circuitry. "You see people immediately eating in the airport when their flight is canceled," Volkow points out.

    —And cut out the rituals linked to your bad habits. No eating in front of the TV, ever.

    "What you want to be thinking about is, `What is it in my environment that is triggering this behavior?'" says Nordgren. "You have to guard yourself against it."

    I know I can't ever have junk in the house, just cannot resist it. Equally I try to never leave the house hungry and eat as much at home as I can. Avoiding temptation requires less reliance on willpower, which runs out!

    What do you do to avoid temptation?


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,977 ✭✭✭rocky



    What do you do to avoid temptation?

    Intermittent Fasting ! :pac:

    Don't avoid, only postpone!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,977 ✭✭✭rocky


    I find that after 3 weeks of cutting out sugar from the diet, I don't have any cravings and if I have a clearly defined fat loss purpose, I can watch anybody eat B&J all day without giving myself heartburn.

    I also had deserts from time to time on the diet but they weren't enjoyable, my taste buds have changed.

    After I finished my last fat loss stint, it took about 2 weeks of re-introducing sugary deserts (hey I need the calories! ;) ) before I started enjoying them as before. But the breakkie scone I still don't like :(, and I find it easy to just skip it and only have coffee.

    I think eating sugary deserts is mostly a social habit that translates to mental addiction after a while. But it's easily enough got rid of -- just go cold turkey.

    Also keeping busy helps the mind from focusing on the treats too much.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 147 ✭✭Ice.


    What do you do to avoid temptation?


    The reason for temptation is being under-carbed. If you don't eat enough then your body will crave calories and when your discipline & will power run out you will eat stuff you don't want to. I make sure I eat enough calories every day and I'm not tempted by anything.


  • Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭El_Dangeroso


    Ice. wrote: »
    The reason for temptation is being under-carbed. If you don't eat enough then your body will crave calories and when your discipline & will power run out you will eat stuff you don't want to. I make sure I eat enough calories every day and I'm not tempted by anything.

    Yep, that's why low-fat, high-carb diets have such great success rates. Oh no wait, they don't.

    The topic of the thread is how to avoid temptation, not 'I'm never tempted by anything aren't I great.'


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 147 ✭✭Ice.


    Yep, that's why low-fat, high-carb diets have such great success rates. Oh no wait, they don't.

    Well, in my and many others experience, they do.

    To say something is low-fat is subjective. Better to be objective and state what low-fat means when you refer to it.
    The topic of the thread is how to avoid temptation, not 'I'm never tempted by anything aren't I great.'

    Thats why I said in order to avoid temptation I make sure I eat enough calories per day.


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  • Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭El_Dangeroso


    Ice. wrote: »
    Well, in my and many others experience, they do.

    To say something is low-fat is subjective. Better to be objective and state what low-fat means when you refer to it.

    Thats why I said in order to avoid temptation I make sure I eat enough calories per day.

    Low fat = <30% calories. And in scientific trials they have less than 2% success rate. So carbs aren't really helping those 98% avoid temptation.

    Define 'enough' calories.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Temptation for me has all but gone. When I think about how much I've changed my eating habits, it shocks me.

    I mean, for years (I'd say at least 17 years in fact) I drank coke daily. Not just one can or two cans, but sometimes 4 or 5 cans. For weeks at a time I drank no water or milk - it was all coke or orange juice, but mostly coke.
    Vegetables and fruit? Nope! Often I'd go months without them. Main foods consisted of white bread, sandwiches with chicken or ham, coleslaw, chicken (i.e. deli food), pizza, chips, burgers. No home cooked meals. Also lots of chocolate biscuits and chocolate bars. (Two redeeming things: I don't drink, and I don't smoke.) In addition, I did virtually no exercise. Ever. I was always overweight as a result. Ideally I should be between 65 and 70kg - but generally I was around the 80kg mark for a very long time.

    When I turned 26 this stability waned and the kilos crept up slowly until I got to 92kg with a BMI of 32. Then I just had an epiphany one day and zealously embraced a healthy lifestyle where I cut my carbs, upped my protein and introduced mono and poly unsaturated fats. I cut out junkfood, I cut out fizzy drinks, and I cut out chocolate. I do miss them sometimes, and when I do, I go to McDonalds, or I have a cream bun. I do this maybe once per month now, spontaneously usually, and it suits me down to the ground. I also exercise now in a big way, getting in at least 1 hour per day, every single day. Where I live, the presses are often full of cakes and biscuits... but I just don't feel the need any more to eat that type of food.

    Today it astonishes me that I was once 50lbs heavier and that I ate and lived so unhealthily. I suppose now as I approach 30 I'm more aware of my well-being and that is a good motivator.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 147 ✭✭Ice.


    Low fat = <30% calories. And in scientific trials they have less than 2% success rate. So carbs aren't really helping those 98% avoid temptation.

    As far as I'm concerned 30% fat is high-fat. Scientific trials aren't the be-all and end-all. They can be interesting for sure but so many variables. Also it depends on who is funding said trials etc.
    Define 'enough' calories.

    For me...at least 3000 per day. More if I'm exercising.


  • Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭El_Dangeroso


    Ice. wrote: »
    As far as I'm concerned 30% fat is high-fat. Scientific trials aren't the be-all and end-all. They can be interesting for sure but so many variables. Also it depends on who is funding said trials etc.

    Jeepers, you'd faint if you saw how much fat I ate. Also that's the idea behind a controlled trial, you control for those variations through randomisation and a control group etc. Also, why would scientists who spent lots of money putting people on a diet want it to fail? Diet trials are generally sponsored by those with a vested interest in the diet (or one of the diets) working long term.

    What's better than a scientific trial to test a hypothesis out of interest?
    For me...at least 3000 per day. More if I'm exercising.

    Well that really doesn't help anyone else. Most people would gain weight eating that much.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 147 ✭✭Ice.


    Jeepers, you'd faint if you saw how much fat I ate.

    How much %fat do you consume in a typical day?
    Also that's the idea behind a controlled trial, you control for those variations through randomisation and a control group etc. Also, why would scientists who spent lots of money putting people on a diet want it to fail? Diet trials are generally sponsored by those with a vested interest in the diet (or one of the diets) working long term.

    What's better than a scientific trial to test a hypothesis out of interest

    But it's generally not scientists who are funding these studies. It's usually some interest group that wants to promote one thing or another. I'm not saying that nothing can be learned from such things but I think it's important to view it in context.
    Well that really doesn't help anyone else. Most people would gain weight eating that much.

    I used to belive that also. Calorie restriction looks good on paper but doesn't work well in real life. I used to calorie restrict and I was over weight as a result. But since changing to a high-carb low-fat diet I have lost the weight and I never worry about eating too many calories. My energy levels are always up and my moods are positive. Another thing often over looked is hydration. Hydration is extremely important. Most people are dehydrated and don't even know it.


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  • Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭El_Dangeroso


    Ice. wrote: »
    How much %fat do you consume in a typical day?

    It varies between 50-70% Pretty much all saturated of monounsaturated.

    Ice. wrote: »
    But it's generally not scientists who are funding these studies. It's usually some interest group that wants to promote one thing or another. I'm not saying that nothing can be learned from such things but I think it's important to view it in context.

    Well of course context is important, as are studies that come before it. You generally never make a decision unless it can be repeated in experiments over and over. We have lots of dietary studies funded by various groups, generally they follow the same arc if they are designed well, regardless of the funding source.

    Ice. wrote: »
    I used to belive that also. Calorie restriction looks good on paper but doesn't work well in real life.

    No arguments there. Actually I would add the adjective 'conscious' calorie restriction.
    Ice. wrote: »
    I used to calorie restrict and I was over weight as a result. But since changing to a high-carb low-fat diet I have lost the weight and I never worry about eating too many calories. My energy levels are always up and my moods are positive. Another thing often over looked is hydration. Hydration is extremely important. Most people are dehydrated and don't even know it.

    Do you do 80:10:10 perchance? You sound like people I've met before that have done it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 147 ✭✭Ice.


    Do you do 80:10:10 perchance? You sound like people I've met before that have done it.

    Yeah. Last couple of years. Never been better TBH.


  • Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭El_Dangeroso


    Ice. wrote: »
    Yeah. Last couple of years. Never been better TBH.

    Some aspects of the 80:10:10 contribute to better health, for example, low omega 6, low refined carbs - I'm assuming you don't eat grains either? However beware that there may be ramifications from deficiency that don't show for decades. There is a really good reason that no population on the planet eats those ratios.

    The science behind eating raw is very shaky indeed, plant enzymes cannot be used in the body for anything, they don't work like endogenous enzymes.

    In any case if you do chose to continue, do supplement with K2 MK4, DHA, taurine and vitamin D (people who don't eat much meat have a higher requirement for vitamin D). All these steps are to protect and nourish your bones. Many long-term very low fat dieters suffer from poor teeth or poor bone health.

    Take your vits when you eat the most fat in the day.

    Don't fear fat, there are perfectly healthy cultures around the world that eat lots of nutritious fat. They just don't eat crappy industrial fat, the type most consumed in the western world.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    I'm bulking at the moment so constantly full. Just realised I haven't even thought about a bag of crisps or bar of chocolate in weeks let alone bought one.

    Though this only works if you're training hard. Before bulking I basically couldn't avoid temptation. Perhaps I wasn't eating enough calories from proper meals.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 147 ✭✭Ice.


    Some aspects of the 80:10:10 contribute to better health, for example, low omega 6, low refined carbs - I'm assuming you don't eat grains either? However beware that there may be ramifications from deficiency that don't show for decades. There is a really good reason that no population on the planet eats those ratios.

    The science behind eating raw is very shaky indeed, plant enzymes cannot be used in the body for anything, they don't work like endogenous enzymes.

    In any case if you do chose to continue, do supplement with K2 MK4, DHA, taurine and vitamin D (people who don't eat much meat have a higher requirement for vitamin D). All these steps are to protect and nourish your bones. Many long-term very low fat dieters suffer from poor teeth or poor bone health.

    Take your vits when you eat the most fat in the day.

    Don't fear fat, there are perfectly healthy cultures around the world that eat lots of nutritious fat. They just don't eat crappy industrial fat, the type most consumed in the western world.


    I don't eat grains. Just fruits, vegetables and some nuts & seeds.

    Taurine is an amino acid that is not essential for humans. It is considered conditionally essential only for prenatal and newborn infants.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3570861

    "Although the concentration of taurine in breast milk was lower in vegan subjects, the mean value fell within the range found in omnivore subjects."


    EPA and DHA are not recognised as essential according to the National Academy of Sciences. They're satisfied that there's enough evidence to suggest that we can make enough of it without ingesting it. As for Vitamin D, one has to make sure they get sufficient sunlight. Difficult in northern climes at times but as long as you keep an eye on your levels you shouldn't run into problems. As for bone health, as long as one stays active and performs load-bearing excercises, there should be no problems.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭Remmy


    I'm bulking at the moment so constantly full. Just realised I haven't even thought about a bag of crisps or bar of chocolate in weeks let alone bought one.

    Though this only works if you're training hard. Before bulking I basically couldn't avoid temptation. Perhaps I wasn't eating enough calories from proper meals.

    Same story here.It sounds like a cliche but Im more likely to get a craving for some steak and brown rice than donuts or choc now:D


  • Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭El_Dangeroso


    Ice. wrote: »
    I don't eat grains. Just fruits, vegetables and some nuts & seeds.

    Taurine is an amino acid that is not essential for humans. It is considered conditionally essential only for prenatal and newborn infants.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3570861

    "Although the concentration of taurine in breast milk was lower in vegan subjects, the mean value fell within the range found in omnivore subjects."

    Taurine is a 'conditionally' essential amino acid, you can normally make some but during times of stress you need substantially more. It protects against many diseases via counteracting endogenous AGE production:

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WN2-4CHHPX5-2&_user=103680&_coverDate=12/31/2005&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1626522413&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000007922&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=103680&md5=f4063ecae793ca7590078dd30427e9cc&searchtype=a

    Plus the study compared with the 'average' person. I would want better health than the average person myself but to each their own.

    It's your health but I personally wouldn't risk it for the cost of a very cheap and harmless supplement.
    Ice. wrote: »
    EPA and DHA are not recognised as essential according to the National Academy of Sciences. They're satisfied that there's enough evidence to suggest that we can make enough of it without ingesting it. As for Vitamin D, one has to make sure they get sufficient sunlight. Difficult in northern climes at times but as long as you keep an eye on your levels you shouldn't run into problems. As for bone health, as long as one stays active and performs load-bearing excercises, there should be no problems.

    And yet the rest of the scientific world does see that DHA consumption is incredibly important to health, in fact it strongly correlates with good health across the board. Tribes would travel hundreds of miles to secure dried fish and fish eggs for their pregnant women, for both iodine and DHA.

    Don't forget tolerated is not optimal, people can get away with drinking less than a glass of water a day and live, doesn't mean you shouldn't drink more for optimal health. There are people out there eating crap 24/7 and they feel just fine too. I'd at least try an algae DHA supp if I were you.

    Where are you getting sufficient sunlight in Ireland? There's a reason most traditional vegetarian cultures live close to the equator. As for getting enough from food, even I struggle with that and I eat a lot of oily fish. Don't forget that the fortified version of D (ergocalciferol) is next to useless in preventing all but the most overt deficiency and you can't even absorb that if you don't eat enough fat. At least get a test done, then when you come back with a sufficient result you can shove it in my face and I will concede that you don't need to supplement. :) Get one done for zinc, b12 and homocysteine while you're at it, just so you can really show me what's what.

    As for weight training preventing osteoporosis, it plays a part sure but diet is 90% of bone health, you can't maintain bone without the raw materials, that's just a biological fact.

    Diet is not a religion, you're not going to go to hell just by admitting some things in your diet need replacing. Consider it insurance.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 147 ✭✭Ice.


    Taurine is a 'conditionally' essential amino acid, you can normally make some but during times of stress you need substantially more. It protects against many diseases via counteracting endogenous AGE production:

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WN2-4CHHPX5-2&_user=103680&_coverDate=12/31/2005&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1626522413&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000007922&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=103680&md5=f4063ecae793ca7590078dd30427e9cc&searchtype=a

    Plus the study compared with the 'average' person. I would want better health than the average person myself but to each their own.

    It's your health but I personally wouldn't risk it for the cost of a very cheap and harmless supplement.

    Interesting study but I noticed they concentrate on vegetarian diets having higher plasma AGE content as oppossed to an ominvorous diet but they also say “a low-AGE content may contribute to the many benefits conferred to diabetics by a genuinely low-fat vegan diet.” It appears a low-fat vegan diet is fine where as something in a vegetarian diet is triggering higher plasma AGE content. Also it refers to “foods rich in both protein and fat, and cooked at high heat, tend to be the richest dietary sources of AGEs, whereas low-fat carbohydrate-rich foods tend to be relatively low in AGEs.” I don't eat foods rich/high in protin or fat nor do I cook them.


    And yet the rest of the scientific world does see that DHA consumption is incredibly important to health, in fact it strongly correlates with good health across the board. Tribes would travel hundreds of miles to secure dried fish and fish eggs for their pregnant women, for both iodine and DHA.

    Don't forget tolerated is not optimal, people can get away with drinking less than a glass of water a day and live, doesn't mean you shouldn't drink more for optimal health. There are people out there eating crap 24/7 and they feel just fine too. I'd at least try an algae DHA supp if I were you.

    You do not have to consume DHA & EPA because your body can convert ALA into EPA & DHA
    Where are you getting sufficient sunlight in Ireland? There's a reason most traditional vegetarian cultures live close to the equator. As for getting enough from food, even I struggle with that and I eat a lot of oily fish. Don't forget that the fortified version of D (ergocalciferol) is next to useless in preventing all but the most overt deficiency and you can't even absorb that if you don't eat enough fat. At least get a test done, then when you come back with a sufficient result you can shove it in my face and I will concede that you don't need to supplement. :) Get one done for zinc, b12 and homocysteine while you're at it, just so you can really show me what's what.

    Adults can develop vitamin D toxicity (Hypervitaminosis D) from taking vitamin D supplements over a number of months. Seeing as vitamin D is fat soluble, and if you build up a good store of it during the spring, summer and autumn, your body will release it over the course of the winter, although it will be lower in quality and quantity than if you had recent sun exposure. The answer is to get more sun:)
    As for weight training preventing osteoporosis, it plays a part sure but diet is 90% of bone health, you can't maintain bone without the raw materials, that's just a biological fact.

    Then how come astronauts, despite supplementation, suffer bone density loss while in a weightless enviornment such as space? How come bed ridden patients suffer bone density loss despite supplementation? Diet is important for sure but more so is load-bearing excercise when it comes to bone strenght. However high protein diets do lead to bone loss:

    In summary, a diet high in acid-ash protein causes excessive urinary calcium loss because of its acid content; calciuria is directly related to urinary net acid excretion. Alkali buffers, whether chemical salts or dietary fruits and vegetables, reverse this urinary calcium loss.

    Overall, the evidence leaves little doubt that excess acidity will create a reduction in total bone substance. This is normal physiology…


    http://jn.nutrition.org/content/128/6/1051.full

    Diet is not a religion, you're not going to go to hell just by admitting some things in your diet need replacing. Consider it insurance.

    I agree. Diet is not a religion. It is important to educate oneself as much as possible and make your decisions accordingly.


  • Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭El_Dangeroso


    Ice. wrote: »
    Interesting study but I noticed they concentrate on vegetarian diets having higher plasma AGE content as oppossed to an ominvorous diet but they also say “a low-AGE content may contribute to the many benefits conferred to diabetics by a genuinely low-fat vegan diet.” It appears a low-fat vegan diet is fine where as something in a vegetarian diet is triggering higher plasma AGE content. Also it refers to “foods rich in both protein and fat, and cooked at high heat, tend to be the richest dietary sources of AGEs, whereas low-fat carbohydrate-rich foods tend to be relatively low in AGEs.” I don't eat foods rich/high in protin or fat nor do I cook them.

    Exogenous or dietary AGES are completely irrelevant compared to endogenous AGES, or the kind we manufacture inside the body. Vegetarians have a much higher level of AGES in the blood than omnivores, that means that stopping your body producing them is far more important than avoiding cooked meats.
    Ice. wrote: »
    You do not have to consume DHA & EPA because your body can convert ALA into EPA & DHA

    In the rate of less than 9%, and that's under perfect conditions and in young women only, in some the conversion rate is as low as 0.4% and you have no way of knowing how much you convert.

    Also where are you getting your ALA from? In order to get enough you have to consume a fair amount of flax oil (which is almost always partially rancid and may have other untoward side effects) or eat nuts, both are a little too fatty for a 10% fat diet.

    Ice. wrote: »
    Adults can develop vitamin D toxicity (Hypervitaminosis D) from taking vitamin D supplements over a number of months. Seeing as vitamin D is fat soluble, and if you build up a good store of it during the spring, summer and autumn, your body will release it over the course of the winter, although it will be lower in quality and quantity than if you had recent sun exposure. The answer is to get more sun:)

    You need about 40,000IU a day over a sustained period of time in order to induce toxicity. Your body use D for many functions so at a reasonable level of supplementation it doesn't just sit in your tissue accumulating. That's why I always recommend a test.

    The idea that you can get enough D from sun in Ireland is belied by the fact that a huge proportion of Irish people, young and old are considered deficient when their blood is tested in studies. Vegetarians have a higher risk of deficiency.

    Also serum 25(OH)D drops to deficient levels in a matter of weeks, the idea that you can somehow store enough to last all winter is misguided. In fact, a prominent researcher in the area Vieth commented that it may be the rapid drops in serum levels that cause the most damage.

    Ice. wrote: »
    Then how come astronauts, despite supplementation, suffer bone density loss while in a weightless enviornment such as space? How come bed ridden patients suffer bone density loss despite supplementation?Diet is important for sure but more so is load-bearing excercise when it comes to bone strenght.

    That doesn't prove weight training is more important than diet, just that it is important. I also reckon space diets are far from ideal.:) In any case it's not an either/or situation. No dumbell in the world will protect your bones from vitamin and mineral deficiency.
    Ice. wrote: »
    However high protein diets do lead to bone loss:

    In summary, a diet high in acid-ash protein causes excessive urinary calcium loss because of its acid content; calciuria is directly related to urinary net acid excretion. Alkali buffers, whether chemical salts or dietary fruits and vegetables, reverse this urinary calcium loss.

    Overall, the evidence leaves little doubt that excess acidity will create a reduction in total bone substance. This is normal physiology…


    http://jn.nutrition.org/content/128/6/1051.full

    Ah, that old chestnut. Notice what that study measured, calcium excretion. You know what increases calcium excretion? Increased calcium being absorbed into your bones. Weird isn't it? But when you absorb more calcium into your bones your body doesn't need as much and excretes the rest. Protein increases the efficiency of calcium absorption.

    What happens when you measure actual bone density?

    http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Aktion=ShowAbstract&ArtikelNr=321736&Ausgabe=254739&ProduktNr=223977

    Consumption of quality protein increases lean body mass, bone density and bone mineral content.

    Also, the acid/base theory has been thoroughly debunked at this stage. It's only because so called 'base' foods are more likely to be high in minerals. Once you get enough minerals, the acid/base balance ceases to have any effect.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 60 ✭✭benagain


    wot controls vision couldnt read a fookin thing:D


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 147 ✭✭Ice.


    Also where are you getting your ALA from? In order to get enough you have to consume a fair amount of flax oil (which is almost always partially rancid and may have other untoward side effects) or eat nuts, both are a little too fatty for a 10% fat diet.


    EPA & DHA can be synthesized by the body given sufficient quantities of the omega 3 ALA, which is hard NOT to come by in fruits, veggies, nuts & seeds. However if we consume too much dietary saturated fat, this compromises our body's ability to produce the long chain omega 3s like EPA & DHA. And because of their delicate molecular structure, EPA & DHA can be damaged by heat. Therefore if you get EPA & DHA by eating cooked fish you are ingesting rancid omega 3 oils.


    You need about 40,000IU a day over a sustained period of time in order to induce toxicity. Your body use D for many functions so at a reasonable level of supplementation it doesn't just sit in your tissue accumulating. That's why I always recommend a test.

    The idea that you can get enough D from sun in Ireland is belied by the fact that a huge proportion of Irish people, young and old are considered deficient when their blood is tested in studies. Vegetarians have a higher risk of deficiency.

    Also serum 25(OH)D drops to deficient levels in a matter of weeks, the idea that you can somehow store enough to last all winter is misguided. In fact, a prominent researcher in the area Vieth commented that it may be the rapid drops in serum levels that cause the most damage.


    "Despite the promise for disease prevention suggested by available studies, we believe that the evidence for widespread use of high-dose vitamin D supplementation in the general population remains insufficient."

    http://www.annals.org/content/152/5/307.abstract

    Unfortunately, taking isolated supplements usually prove inefective and in many cases dangerous. The best approach with vitamin D is still to get out in the sun more, but I agree that you should get your levels tested.


    That doesn't prove weight training is more important than diet, just that it is important. I also reckon space diets are far from ideal.:) In any case it's not an either/or situation. No dumbell in the world will protect your bones from vitamin and mineral deficiency.

    Never said that it would. What I was saying was that resistance training for the bones was a critical component. If your diet is sound then you need load bearing excercise to keep them strong. Diet alone wont do.


    Consumption of quality protein increases lean body mass, bone density and bone mineral content.

    The highest ever recorded calcium intake is of the eskimo's. With around 2500mg per day intake, they also had the highest rate of osteoporosis due to their high animal protein intake.


  • Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭El_Dangeroso


    Ice. wrote: »
    EPA & DHA can be synthesized by the body given sufficient quantities of the omega 3 ALA, which is hard NOT to come by in fruits, veggies, nuts & seeds. However if we consume too much dietary saturated fat, this compromises our body's ability to produce the long chain omega 3s like EPA & DHA. And because of their delicate molecular structure, EPA & DHA can be damaged by heat. Therefore if you get EPA & DHA by eating cooked fish you are ingesting rancid omega 3 oils.

    "Despite the promise for disease prevention suggested by available studies, we believe that the evidence for widespread use of high-dose vitamin D supplementation in the general population remains insufficient."

    http://www.annals.org/content/152/5/307.abstract

    Unfortunately, taking isolated supplements usually prove inefective and in many cases dangerous. The best approach with vitamin D is still to get out in the sun more, but I agree that you should get your levels tested.

    Never said that it would. What I was saying was that resistance training for the bones was a critical component. If your diet is sound then you need load bearing excercise to keep them strong. Diet alone wont do.

    The highest ever recorded calcium intake is of the eskimo's. With around 2500mg per day intake, they also had the highest rate of osteoporosis due to their high animal protein intake.

    Getting back out of multiquote territory :)

    Where to start, no, you can't make enough DHA from ALA in fruits, nuts, seeds and vegetables AND stay on a less than 10% fat diet for the conversion reasons I outlined above. If you have some evidence, or even a calculation based on the average 4% conversion rate I'd love to see it - 700mg DHA is optimal. I can't manage it without using flax oil, which as I mentioned before is almost always rancid out of the original context of the seed, and with the seeds you get phytoestrogens and phytic acid, not nice additions to one's diet. Why the resistance to an algal DHA supplement? It still fits the criteria of your diet.

    As for the omega 3's in cooked fish being rancid, again, no, rancid omega 3's STINK. That is the main component of the distinctive 'rotten fish' smell. Fish contains high amounts of selenium, a potent antioxidant that protects the fats from oxidation when heated (and incidently protects against any mercury present in the fish).

    Define 'high-dose' D supplementation. I take 2,000IU a day, within the IOM's recommendations and much lower than the lowest dose at which an adverse effect has been observed. I do think more is required however if someone is deficient.

    As for vitamins having no effect, honestly, that's just a myth. Check out pubmed or google scholar and type in 'vitamins' there is tonnes of controlled trials showing they have a significant effect on health. The safety data is all there too, rare you ever see an adverse event from the natural version of a vitamin taken within normal physiological doses, most trials showing an adverse event used the synthetic versions.

    I'm currently working in a trial on vitamin D, on pregnant women, you should see the amount of evidence we had to provide in the investigator's brochure before we got approval from the ethics committee. There is lots out there but you do have to look before making up your mind.

    Re: the Inuit having the highest intake of calcium, eh, no they don't, in fact they come low on intakes of calcium, potassium and magnesium and possibly a little too much vitamin A compared to D. That's the reason they have weaker bones, still, they (used to prior to adopting white flour and sugar) get no measurable heart disease and cancer though, so there goes Dr. Campbell's theory!

    And while we're playing epidemiology tennis, how come the Japanese have such high rates (arguably the highest in the first world) when they eat so little meat compared to the west?

    Do what you do, it's your live after all, but don't preach that meat and dairy are harmful because the evidence simply isn't on your side.


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