Advice needed for a DART court summons

whiska

Got a train from Portmarnock to Malahide and was stopped at Malahide dart station and offered to pay the fare BEFORE i was stopped. Went to the guy at the gate on my own and explained to him that i had work and that there was no ticket machine or seller on the northbound platform. He then issued me a fine and i had no ID on me but gave my address.
Heard nothing since(This was june 2010) and got a court summons today in the post which was dated in November 2010. As i'm sure most of you are aware its well into 2011
So firstly, as this is my first notifaction of this fine and my apparent refusal to pay it, what options are available to me? Can this be settled out of court?
Also i've been advised that since no ID was presented i can say that someone used my name and address.

DWCommuter

Im a bit confused. This summons that you got dated November 2010, does it have a court date on it? If so here are your options. Go to court and take your medicine or contact Irish Rail immediately and offer to pay the fine and any admin charge. They usually accept this as a full settlement of the issue and it saves court time.

whiska

The summons i got was stamped and dated 29th of November2010 and i only recieved it today the 27th of January 2011. Its issued by Dublin Metro District.
Had to sign for it off the post man this morning. and yeah it has a court date for february. But this is my first notifcation. Generally i thought you got issued a receipt of the fine that day, then get a letter saying you have to pay. Then i assume you get a summons for refusing to pay but i didnt get the first "warning letter" lets say.

flyingsnail

I would ring Irish rail straight away and offer to pay or come to some resolution before going to court.

whiska wrote: »

Also i've been advised that since no ID was presented i can say that someone used my name and address.

that would be perjury

DWCommuter

whiska wrote: »

The summons i got was stamped and dated 29th of November2010 and i only recieved it today the 27th of January 2011. Its issued by Dublin Metro District.
Had to sign for it off the post man this morning. and yeah it has a court date for february. But this is my first notifcation. Generally i thought you got issued a receipt of the fine that day, then get a letter saying you have to pay. Then i assume you get a summons for refusing to pay but i didnt get the first "warning letter" lets say.

Offer to pay the fine before the court date. Be nice. No aggression. I'd be very confidant they will accept it and as I said they may have a small admin fee.

flyingsnail

I knew I read something like this before, the person in this thread was able to pay an increased fine and avoid going to court. I strongly suggest you try and do the same.

Victor

whiska wrote: »

He then issued me a fine

This was your first notice.

Average fine is 130 euro (but varies), costs may apply. 80%+ conviction rate.

Losty Dublin

Something of note to follow on about this that will be of note to all regular posters here.....

During the Xmas RPSI season, I got talking to one of the Revenue Inspectors in Pearse so the conversation quickly got onto fare evasion and such like. A few things of note he said to me....

• The rate of those who pay up from their fines is over 90% with fewer than 1 in 20 even requiring a summons.
• The conviction rate of those that do go to court is well over 80% and are found without any need for Irish Rail staff to take to the stand.
• Some convictions have been made from people who have given false details at the time of being caught when traveling.
• The only excuse for not having a ticket is when you board a train at a station without a facility to buy a ticket. If a booking office is closed and one is available then a ticket machine must be used to buy a ticket.

AlekSmart

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Something of note to follow on about this that will be of note to all regular posters here.....

• The rate of those who pay up from their fines is over 90% with fewer than 1 in 20 even requiring a summons.
• The conviction rate of those that do go to court is well over 80% and are found without any need for Irish Rail staff to take to the stand.
  [/B]

I don`t know about you Losty Dublin,but I really am bamboozled at the numbers of folks who appear to have difficulty with these systems.

It`s not those who experience the breakdowns in the Ticketing system that worry me,but the many who even after being caught with underwear around their ankles continue to press for "Special Consideration".

It`s perhaps a point of note that breaches of the Child and Student fare requirements make up the largest single Reveune Protection issue grouping.

The most pertinent point in all of this is the 80% Conviction Rate. :eek: :eek: :eek:

Losty Dublin

AlekSmart wrote: »

I don`t know about you Losty Dublin,but I really am bamboozled at the numbers of folks who appear to have difficulty with these systems.

It`s not those who experience the breakdowns in the Ticketing system that worry me,but the many who even after being caught with underwear around their ankles continue to press for "Special Consideration".

It`s perhaps a point of note that breaches of the Child and Student fare requirements make up the largest single Reveune Protection issue grouping.

The most pertinent point in all of this is the 80% Conviction Rate. :eek: :eek: :eek:

Alek, and the fines levied are always in the four figure range; hardly worth a few shillings fare on the Dart :eek::eek::eek: The inspector also told me that cases are done in massive batches at the one time when they are called and it's little more than rubber stamping in the guilty column, so quick are the trials. I'd suspect most of those called up harbour ideas of being Inspectors Colombo or Frost at the dock but it's more Clouseau when it come to the crunch.

Very little boggles me at times when it comes to our fellow citizens. While we can agree that the concept of stages/zones can confuse at times the concept of having a ticket is pretty black and white. When I was in the taxi business, I was only ever shortchanged the once over five years as people know you pay the driver at the end of the trip. When I go into Superquinn to get my fresh bread, I don't walk out claiming not to know I had to pay such a price for my turnover. Ergo if you are on a train/bus/tram you need to have a valid ticket and you have to get it ASAP. Yes, we know Broombridge is bereft of a ticket selling point but so do they and yes they know if Gorey or Farranfore don't open after 7PM on mart day; they ain't made inspectors because they look best in the braided caps

DWCommuter

I applaud all the experts here in ticketing arrangements for Irish Rail and you are all right. However the OPs dilemma is clear and he/she has been offered the correct advice to solve it, so its up to them. No amount of "knowledge" or opinions on the rights and wrongs of it will change it.

Im happy to offer my advice for the second time after it was proved correct the first time. I'm sure the paying of the fine plus admin cost will be enough to remind the OP not to do it again. Simple advice that is correct and always worth trying (with financial consequences) really out weighs any lecture.

munkifisht

I had a similar issue with the clowns in the DART before. I was rushing to get a train and the ticket office was closed. My previous experience of the ticket machines has been that they are buggy, slow and almost inconceivably difficult to use. So rather than miss the train and the meeting I had to be at, I decided to pay on the other end.

When I got off at Connolly I went straight up to the fare guy and told him the situation and that I would need a return fare and tried to give him the correct change. The stinking fecker booked me on it. I was amazed as I've gone through similar before and they had no problem accepting my fare on that end (prob because the guys pocketed it). I showed the guy 8 tickets I had from the previous few days, explained I was looking to get a return ticket. I was also coming in on the Northbound train and claiming that my journey was from Howth, which it was (the max fare you can have, so in other words, as a fare evader I was doing a pretty poor job). None of this was accepted, so I wrote to the fines collection office and explained the situation in a calm and level manner. Again, no budging. One of the funniest parts of the whole debacle was when I rang the fines office and and was talking to the man in charge, he said he never had a problem in getting a ticket in the morning. I had to point out to him that I knew that as an employee of CIE he was issued with a ticket with his job that allowed him ride the dart and bus services for free. He didn't really have a response for that.

In short, the people who work in fine collections in the Dart and CIE and absolute and total bureaucrats. They have no idea of the realities of life. My advice if you ever do have to run for a train

Never present any ID
Never give a real address
Never travel on the Dart

Since that mess I've stopped using the POS dart service and have started to drive in, and it's more reliable, more comfortable, it is WAYYYYYY cheaper, and there isn't some junkie coughing all over me.

munkifisht

munkifisht wrote: »

I had a similar issue with the clowns in the DART before. I was rushing to get a train and the ticket office was closed. My previous experience of the ticket machines has been that they are buggy, slow and almost inconceivably difficult to use. So rather than miss the train and the meeting I had to be at, I decided to pay on the other end.
.

I hate to sound unsympathetic, but I don't run out of tesco with my shopping without paying just because the queues are too long and I have a meeting.

It's not their fault you didn't plan enough time ahead
And just because they sometimes bend the rules for you out of consideration, which they have no obligation to do, does not mean you're entitled to it.

popebenny16

munkifisht wrote: »

I had a similar issue with the clowns in the DART before. I was rushing to get a train and the ticket office was closed. My previous experience of the ticket machines has been that they are buggy, slow and almost inconceivably difficult to use. So rather than miss the train and the meeting I had to be at, I decided to pay on the other end.

When I got off at Connolly I went straight up to the fare guy and told him the situation and that I would need a return fare and tried to give him the correct change. The stinking fecker booked me on it. I was amazed as I've gone through similar before and they had no problem accepting my fare on that end (prob because the guys pocketed it). I showed the guy 8 tickets I had from the previous few days, explained I was looking to get a return ticket. I was also coming in on the Northbound train and claiming that my journey was from Howth, which it was (the max fare you can have, so in other words, as a fare evader I was doing a pretty poor job). None of this was accepted, so I wrote to the fines collection office and explained the situation in a calm and level manner. Again, no budging. One of the funniest parts of the whole debacle was when I rang the fines office and and was talking to the man in charge, he said he never had a problem in getting a ticket in the morning. I had to point out to him that I knew that as an employee of CIE he was issued with a ticket with his job that allowed him ride the dart and bus services for free. He didn't really have a response for that.

In short, the people who work in fine collections in the Dart and CIE and absolute and total bureaucrats. They have no idea of the realities of life. My advice if you ever do have to run for a train

Never present any ID
Never give a real address
Never travel on the Dart

Since that mess I've stopped using the POS dart service and have started to drive in, and it's more reliable, more comfortable, it is WAYYYYYY cheaper, and there isn't some junkie coughing all over me.

In other words - you were late, you couldnt be bothered buying a ticket and you got fined. Its everyone elses fault (clowns, bureaucrats, stinking fecker ) but yours. Tough ****. People like you really get my goat up. Had you been on time you wouldnt have been in your situation.

Losty Dublin

You are some tulip, that's all I can say

munkifisht wrote: »

I had a similar issue with the clowns in the DART before. I was rushing to get a train and the ticket office was closed. My previous experience of the ticket machines has been that they are buggy, slow and almost inconceivably difficult to use. So rather than miss the train and the meeting I had to be at, I decided to pay on the other end.

When I got off at Connolly I went straight up to the fare guy and told him the situation and that I would need a return fare and tried to give him the correct change. The stinking fecker booked me on it. I was amazed as I've gone through similar before and they had no problem accepting my fare on that end (prob because the guys pocketed it). I showed the guy 8 tickets I had from the previous few days, explained I was looking to get a return ticket. I was also coming in on the Northbound train and claiming that my journey was from Howth, which it was (the max fare you can have, so in other words, as a fare evader I was doing a pretty poor job). None of this was accepted, so I wrote to the fines collection office and explained the situation in a calm and level manner. Again, no budging. One of the funniest parts of the whole debacle was when I rang the fines office and and was talking to the man in charge, he said he never had a problem in getting a ticket in the morning. I had to point out to him that I knew that as an employee of CIE he was issued with a ticket with his job that allowed him ride the dart and bus services for free. He didn't really have a response for that.

In short, the people who work in fine collections in the Dart and CIE and absolute and total bureaucrats. They have no idea of the realities of life. My advice if you ever do have to run for a train

Never present any ID
Never give a real address
Never travel on the Dart

Since that mess I've stopped using the POS dart service and have started to drive in, and it's more reliable, more comfortable, it is WAYYYYYY cheaper, and there isn't some junkie coughing all over me.

munkifisht

In other words - you were late, you couldnt be bothered buying a ticket and you got fined. Its everyone elses fault (clowns, bureaucrats, stinking fecker ) but yours. Tough ****. People like you really get my goat up. Had you been on time you wouldnt have been in your situation.

I hate to say it, but it kinda was their fault. They installed and programmed these machines without any kind of understanding of Universal Design. They also employee a guy who is supposed to be working the ticket office and wasn't there that morning. I arrived on time to get a ticket from the ticket office, but not to decipher the idiotic programming of some numpty.

What "get my goat up" (although, I don't own a goat) is the type of double digit brain celled morons who subscribe fully, unflaggingly and incessantly to idiotic and illogical rules and laws. I am sure that you are the type to demand your taxi driver has a full bail of hay in the trunk of their carriage at all times, and you quite happily make stool on public streets, happy in the knowledge you are breaking no laws as long as a number 1 doesn't come out too.

Losty Dublin

It actually is your fault. You decided not to use a ticket machine (which does work; I am sure that many others used them before and after you with no confusion or knowledge of programme code) and you chose not to buy a ticket and traveled without same. Irish Rail didn't make you travel, they didn't make you arrive when you did and they surely didn't decide to fine you for the crack.

Admit it, you have no defence here :-)

munkifisht wrote: »

I hate to say it, but it kinda was their fault. They installed and programmed these machines without any kind of understanding of Universal Design. They also employee a guy who is supposed to be working the ticket office and wasn't there that morning. I arrived on time to get a ticket from the ticket office, but not to decipher the idiotic programming of some numpty.

What "get my goat up" (although, I don't own a goat) is the type of double digit brain celled morons who subscribe fully, unflaggingly and incessantly to idiotic and illogical rules and laws. I am sure that you are the type to demand your taxi driver has a full bail of hay in the trunk of their carriage at all times, and you quite happily make stool on public streets, happy in the knowledge you are breaking no laws as long as a number 1 doesn't come out too.

Losty Dublin

Seriously though, if you reckon you have a point and you think a judge will acquit then have your day in court. Just don't be shocked when you see the size of your fine.

handlemaster

munkifisht wrote: »

I hate to say it, but it kinda was their fault. They installed and programmed these machines without any kind of understanding of Universal Design. They also employee a guy who is supposed to be working the ticket office and wasn't there that morning. I arrived on time to get a ticket from the ticket office, but not to decipher the idiotic programming of some numpty.

What "get my goat up" (although, I don't own a goat) is the type of double digit brain celled morons who subscribe fully, unflaggingly and incessantly to idiotic and illogical rules and laws. I am sure that you are the type to demand your taxi driver has a full bail of hay in the trunk of their carriage at all times, and you quite happily make stool on public streets, happy in the knowledge you are breaking no laws as long as a number 1 doesn't come out too.

You just can't be taken seriously.

whiska

i decided to call up IE and see if there was any way of avoiding the court date.
basically if i want it to go away i have to pay the fine of 100 euro plus 110 euro administration fee so i'm pretty positive i'm going to do that.

Thanks for all your advice and help guys!
also i think its true about doing these things in batches. I've heard quite a few people also got summons within a few days of each other for evading fares so i do reckon it is a case of everyone is pretty much guilty.

smokie2008

Deny Deny Deny

AlekSmart

smokie2008 wrote: »

Deny Deny Deny

Sorry smokie2008,that particular excuse has been patented by the former Financial Regulator after his robust stress-testing of the Irish Banking System in smokey 2008.

So our man will need something just a wee bit firmer upon which to base his flight from fares....:rolleyes:

sdanseo

munkifisht wrote: »

I had a similar issue with the clowns in the DART before. I was rushing to get a train and the ticket office was closed. My previous experience of the ticket machines has been that they are buggy, slow and almost inconceivably difficult to use. So rather than miss the train and the meeting I had to be at, I decided to pay on the other end.

When I got off at Connolly I went straight up to the fare guy and told him the situation and that I would need a return fare and tried to give him the correct change. The stinking fecker booked me on it. I was amazed as I've gone through similar before and they had no problem accepting my fare on that end (prob because the guys pocketed it). I showed the guy 8 tickets I had from the previous few days, explained I was looking to get a return ticket. I was also coming in on the Northbound train and claiming that my journey was from Howth, which it was (the max fare you can have, so in other words, as a fare evader I was doing a pretty poor job). None of this was accepted, so I wrote to the fines collection office and explained the situation in a calm and level manner. Again, no budging. One of the funniest parts of the whole debacle was when I rang the fines office and and was talking to the man in charge, he said he never had a problem in getting a ticket in the morning. I had to point out to him that I knew that as an employee of CIE he was issued with a ticket with his job that allowed him ride the dart and bus services for free. He didn't really have a response for that.

In short, the people who work in fine collections in the Dart and CIE and absolute and total bureaucrats. They have no idea of the realities of life. My advice if you ever do have to run for a train

Never present any ID
Never give a real address
Never travel on the Dart

Since that mess I've stopped using the POS dart service and have started to drive in, and it's more reliable, more comfortable, it is WAYYYYYY cheaper, and there isn't some junkie coughing all over me.

Yes. Sitting in traffic for 3 hours every day and paying anywhere from €7 to €30 to park my car for the day is definately cheaper and better and happier than paying €4.20 return.

FFS, you're deluded.

munkifisht wrote: »

I hate to say it, but it kinda was their fault. They installed and programmed these machines without any kind of understanding of Universal Design. They also employee a guy who is supposed to be working the ticket office and wasn't there that morning. I arrived on time to get a ticket from the ticket office, but not to decipher the idiotic programming of some numpty.

What "get my goat up" (although, I don't own a goat) is the type of double digit brain celled morons who subscribe fully, unflaggingly and incessantly to idiotic and illogical rules and laws. I am sure that you are the type to demand your taxi driver has a full bail of hay in the trunk of their carriage at all times, and you quite happily make stool on public streets, happy in the knowledge you are breaking no laws as long as a number 1 doesn't come out too.

YOU TRAVELLED WITHOUT A TICKET. There's being reasonable, unreasonable, and then there's living in the real world. Whether you like it or not, if you arrived too late to work the TVM then you miss your train. End of story. That's not blindly subscribing to idiotic or illogical rules, that's called being reasonable.

Your original attempt to pay your way after getting on anf off without the ticket was admirable, although caused by misguided ignorance. Your arrogant attitude here though is just simply not on, tbh.

pieface_ie

Ive seen this at greystones dart station in the morning, the hatch is not open, massive q for machine as one of the two is broke :rolleyes: People bang on the hatch window and the fella comes out and says pay at the other end, then i get to Pearse st and see people getting fined.

bit of a shambles

Victor

pieface_ie wrote: »

Ive seen this at greystones dart station in the morning, the hatch is not open, massive q for machine as one of the two is broke :rolleyes: People bang on the hatch window and the fella comes out and says pay at the other end, then i get to Pearse st and see people getting fined.

If this happens, surely there are a bunch of witnesses to it?

pieface_ie

If this happens, surely there are a bunch of witnesses to it?

Id like to see you stand in pearse station trying to get people to act as a witness when there all scurrying through the gates like rats

Victor

pieface_ie wrote: »

Id like to see you stand in pearse station trying to get people to act as a witness when there all scurrying through the gates like rats

But they can't - they don't have tickets ....

popebenny16

munkifisht wrote: »

I hate to say it, but it kinda was their fault. They installed and programmed these machines without any kind of understanding of Universal Design. They also employee a guy who is supposed to be working the ticket office and wasn't there that morning. I arrived on time to get a ticket from the ticket office, but not to decipher the idiotic programming of some numpty.

What "get my goat up" (although, I don't own a goat) is the type of double digit brain celled morons who subscribe fully, unflaggingly and incessantly to idiotic and illogical rules and laws. I am sure that you are the type to demand your taxi driver has a full bail of hay in the trunk of their carriage at all times, and you quite happily make stool on public streets, happy in the knowledge you are breaking no laws as long as a number 1 doesn't come out too.

WHAT DRUGS ARE YOU ON?? (Thats in reference to the second paragraph).

As for the first paragraph.... what is so complicated about selecting the station you are going to and either the word "single" or "return". Both my 11 and 10 year old sons can do this. I really dont know if you are just another one of those bored WUMs we find on the C&T board every so often or weather you truly need to see a shrink. Whatever it is, that post cannot be taken seriously, and so neither can you.

pieface_ie wrote: »

Ive seen this at greystones dart station in the morning, the hatch is not open, massive q for machine as one of the two is broke :rolleyes: People bang on the hatch window and the fella comes out and says pay at the other end, then i get to Pearse st and see people getting fined.

bit of a shambles

If there were many people not buying tickets, and therefore many people all being stopped at Pearse - all saying the same story - alarm bells would be going off and payment would be accepted at the station in those circumstances. Your post lacks credibility to me.

I really do not understand what the problem is here. These yokes have been in service for a good while now. It has been a long long time since the clampdown on not having a ticket was implemented. If you are a regular commuter (like every day or even once a week) you know the story that paying at the end is over and has been for a long time. Trying that one is a non starter.

goingnowhere

popebenny16 wrote: »

If there were many people not buying tickets, and therefore many people all being stopped at Pearse - all saying the same story - alarm bells would be going off and payment would be accepted at the station in those circumstances. Your post lacks credibility to me.

True the rules allow for this, classic booking office machine broken, power cut etc, pay at the other end is verbally communicated there should be no problem

It takes just 3 button pushes to get any single/return ticket, for common destinations it take just one.

user1842

Losty Dublin wrote: »

[*]Some convictions have been made from people who have given false details at the time of being caught when travelling.

Just a question on this, if you gave false details how can they catch you, unless they take your picture or something but even then how would they find you?

munkifisht

munkifisht wrote: »

I hate to say it, but it kinda was their fault. They installed and programmed these machines without any kind of understanding of Universal Design. They also employee a guy who is supposed to be working the ticket office and wasn't there that morning. I arrived on time to get a ticket from the ticket office, but not to decipher the idiotic programming of some numpty.

What "get my goat up" (although, I don't own a goat) is the type of double digit brain celled morons who subscribe fully, unflaggingly and incessantly to idiotic and illogical rules and laws. I am sure that you are the type to demand your taxi driver has a full bail of hay in the trunk of their carriage at all times, and you quite happily make stool on public streets, happy in the knowledge you are breaking no laws as long as a number 1 doesn't come out too.

You're so right. It was their fault for installing and programming machines to allow you to buy a ticket when the staff is on a break/doing something other than waiting at the window. It is they who are idiots for programming a machine that everyone can use except for you. We're all idiotic double digit brain celled morons because we can understand something which to an intelligent person makes no sense. The programmers are indeed numpties. You're right to be annoyed by people who follow the illogical rule of paying for a service, even when they're late for something. I am the type to demand my taxi driver has hay in the trunk and quite enjoy "making stool" on public streets. I also pay my dart fare like the idiot I am. I also use the Howth machine without any problems, like the idiot I am. You've shown me the light. You're my hero.

I do have to disagree on one thing though. I suspect you do own a goat.

Victor

dmclean1842 wrote: »

Just a question on this, if you gave false details how can they catch you, unless they take your picture or something but even then how would they find you?

People are creatures of habit.

Those that evade their fares (and other responsibilities) do so systematically. They also make the same trips repeatedly. Personal knowledge and CCTV helps.

They eventually get caught.