Why you should never ever vote FF again!!

Judgement Day

As somebody who has detested the 'Soldiers of Destiny' for decades I shouldn't really start this but here goes anyway. Off the top of my head and in a chronolgical order a list of some of the nonsense that has gone during the last ten years or so of FF government. And before anyone asks it - I'm not and FG/Labour/Sinn Fein supporter either.

1999 Eircom sale fiasco.
2005 New prison site at Thornton Hall purchased for €30m - way more than land worth.
2006 Aer Lingus sale.
2006 Great Southern Hotels sale.
2008 Abandonment of Asgard II sail training vessel - still not replaced!

Other cock-ups
E-voting machines €51 million plus storage - ongoing.
P Pars computer system for Health Service €130 million+
FAS scandal
HSE
Bank Guarantee
2010 IMF comes to town
Numerous Tribunals - cost unknown

Outed FF crooks during that period
Padraig Flynn
Liam Lawlor
Ray Burke
Bertie Ahern
Frank Dunlop

FF/PD incompetents during that period
Michael McDowell
Mary Harney
Willy O'Dea
Brian Lenihan
Brian Cowen

Previous FF fixers/crooks

Charlie Haughey
Albert Reynolds
Padraig Flynn
Sean Doherty

In all honesty the list is very far from complete but it has truly been a couple of awful decades both at home and abroad, and in common with most ordinary people my head is spinning trying to keep up as we stagger from one crisis to the next. Anyway, if after even the few things mentioned above anybody can tell me why anybody should ever vote for FF again I'd be interested to hear.

Mr.Micro

FF puts party first, then cronies, then developers, then the bankers and use the country as its plaything. If we ever want to get ahead and be a proper successful nation then never vote FF.

Silentcorner

As someone who has voted ff all my life I have to agree with you, that list is only a fraction of what it could be...unemployment, emigration, suicide, depression, overpaying for the road network by approx 8bn, quangos, if the last few years have taught us any lessons then surely its that FF need to be consigned to history, I say that without bitterness, just acceptance, they have done too much damage, they can have no argument.

Koloman

The government should have no involvement in running a hotel or airline. The rest of the list is hard to argue with.

mikemac

Judgement Day wrote: »

2006 Great Southern Hotels sale.

Given the financial trouble many hotels are in, 2006 was a good time to sell.
And the State shouldn't be involved in running hotels anyway.

They have Farmleigh for foreign dignitaries and that's all they need

Judgement Day

Koloman wrote: »

The government should have no involvement in running a hotel or airline. The rest of the list is hard to argue with.

Why, State ownership of hotels and airlines is/was not unique to Ireland? Plus the sale of both was a fiasco and the GSH chain was sold for a fraction of its value.

Judgement Day

If you go back a bit further, to 1991, FF presided over the privatisation of the Irish Sugar Company which was also racked by scandal and court cases. Ultimately this great privatisation was to lead to the total close down of the Irish sugar industry. Many of the cheer leaders of FF privatisations are still in situ and I well remember hearing Mary O'Rourke on radio telling everyone that the privatisation of Eircom was all about increasing share ownership throughout the populace.

MOC1972

:mad:I have to work aboard and leave my family beause of FF I really hope people never forget what they have done. now I see Bertie is involed
with some Swiss group trying to buy Coillte in a fire sale talk about a joke !
Charles J HAUGHEY, Bertie, FF ROTTEN TO THE CORE. Frank Fahey is running in my area not a word from him in years sorry not since his never a better time to buy advice in 2009. his meeting went to bits there lately. He was on the radio the next day saying it was not too bad he was sure he was going to pull in extra votes by trying to talk about the economy and he was really going to make a difference. my god talk about been on an other planet; people are very angry! FF are so far away from reality with their golfing and business meetings, its the ordinary taxpayer struggling to pay the bills that will be paying for their years wild west cowboy leadership.
But their lies will continue as long as the party remains.:mad:
ROLL ON VOTING DAY

later12

In fairness, the only reason that Fine Gael and Labour don't have as unimpressive a list is that the latter have never won an election while the former have not won an election since 1982, and have only had short spells in office since, as a consequence of coalitions falling.

Judgement Day

later10 wrote: »

In fairness, the only reason that Fine Gael and Labour don't have as unimpressive a list is that the latter have never won an election while the former have not won an election since 1982, and have only had short spells in office since, as a consequence of coalitions falling.

Oh, don't get me wrong, FG has had a few bad apples - Michael Lowry is a prime example and Labour's Jim "rezone everything" Tully was another fine specimen. However, there seems to be something that attracts the real cowboys to the Fianna Fail fold. I forgot this other FF specimen whose path I crossed many years ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ellis_(Irish_politician)

liammur

Judgement Day wrote: »

As somebody who has detested the 'Soldiers of Destiny' for decades I shouldn't really start this but here goes anyway. Off the top of my head and in a chronolgical order a list of some of the nonsense that has gone during the last ten years or so of FF government. And before anyone asks it - I'm not and FG/Labour/Sinn Fein supporter either.

1999 Eircom sale fiasco.
2005 New prison site at Thornton Hall purchased for €30m - way more than land worth.
2006 Aer Lingus sale.
2006 Great Southern Hotels sale.
2008 Abandonment of Asgard II sail training vessel - still not replaced!

Other cock-ups
E-voting machines €51 million plus storage - ongoing.
P Pars computer system for Health Service €130 million+
FAS scandal
HSE
Bank Guarantee
2010 IMF comes to town
Numerous Tribunals - cost unknown

Outed FF crooks during that period
Padraig Flynn
Liam Lawlor
Ray Burke
Bertie Ahern
Frank Dunlop

FF/PD incompetents during that period
Michael McDowell
Mary Harney
Willy O'Dea
Brian Lenihan
Brian Cowen

Previous FF fixers/crooks

Charlie Haughey
Albert Reynolds
Padraig Flynn
Sean Doherty

In all honesty the list is very far from complete but it has truly been a couple of awful decades both at home and abroad, and in common with most ordinary people my head is spinning trying to keep up as we stagger from one crisis to the next. Anyway, if after even the few things mentioned above anybody can tell me why anybody should ever vote for FF again I'd be interested to hear.

What about all the quangos bertie set up? the huge pay increases and expenses scandals, bringing in all these foreigners (when there wasn't work for them), allowing public sector numbers and pay to rocket

Plus, they have left the regions in total turmoil, many places have unemployment of 20%+

Ronan|Raven

Oh, honey, don't be so naive. That's how the world works! Sure, the mayor takes a few bribes, but he also makes the trains run on time!

koura

I'm afraid voters have short memories.
I predict that the FF will be back in power in 4-5yrs time possibly in coalition with Labour.
Then next it will be FF and SF (The Republican Parties),
or whoever is available, it dosn't really matter.
They will promise the sun, moon and stars and the people with
money will pump money into FF. The PR machine working already.
Its started already. Just listen to the TV tonight.
If ye don't remember ye get to live it all again.
Up FF.

blue_steel

Judgement Day wrote: »

Oh, don't get me wrong, FG has had a few bad apples - Michael Lowry is a prime example and Labour's Jim "rezone everything" Tully was another fine specimen. However, there seems to be something that attracts the real cowboys to the Fianna Fail fold. I forgot this other FF specimen whose path I crossed many years ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ellis_(Irish_politician)

Absolutely. Fianna Fail attracts chancers like sh1t attract flies.
Lets rub their self serving noses in it on Feb 25th.

hinault

@ Judgement Day.

Your list needs to include the grubby little deal negotiated by FF Michael Woods and the religious orders for compensation for those victims of clerical abuse in 2002.

The FF government indemnified the compensation due to the victims of clerical abuse by inisting that the Irish taxpayer pay 90% of €1.3 billion compensation fund and restricting the "contribution" of religious order to
approximately €130 million.

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

uberalles

hinault wrote: »

@ Judgement Day.

Your list needs to include the grubby little deal negotiated by FF Michael Woods and the religious orders for compensation for those victims of clerical abuse in 2002.

The FF government indemnified the compensation due to the victims of clerical abuse by inisting that the Irish taxpayer pay 90% of €1.3 billion compensation fund and restricting the "contribution" of religious order to
approximately €130 million.

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

The catholic church is the richest organisation in the world, next are the Pharmaceutical and Oil industry. How did the church with hundreds of billions get a deal like that?

freewheeler

later10 wrote: »

In fairness, the only reason that Fine Gael and Labour don't have as unimpressive a list is that the latter have never won an election while the former have not won an election since 1982, and have only had short spells in office since, as a consequence of coalitions falling.

Pure speculation on your part. Surely it would be better to stick with what we actually know happened? FF have taken cronyism/corruption to a whole new level in this country..the results of which we now have to deal with.The fact that they 'bought' several elections to the detriment of the country is nothing to be proud of.

madred006

As a rule I try not to do politics ,been raised in ff household all my life ,but on prime time this eve that bertie bol..x was asked if he had any input into the state of country .
NO I HAVE BEEN GONE 3 YEARS he replied mores the pity he was ever born jesus is it ever going to end ,I certainly hope they wiped out this time .

raymon

FF attitude can be summed up in one word

Callely

uberalles

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjl8OIZijjY&feature=player_embedded

Retail Hell

Beverly Cooper Flynn, selling ansbacher accounts etc....
(the apple dosen't fall far from the tree)

Min

uberalles wrote: »

The catholic church is the richest organisation in the world, next are the Pharmaceutical and Oil industry. How did the church with hundreds of billions get a deal like that?

They are the biggest providers of education, healthcare and aid/charity in the world outside of governments.

Iwannahurl

FF Made Guys (eg Haughey, Ahern, Dunlop, Burke, Lawlor) rotten to the core, IMO. For the life of me I cannot understand why some very decent people continue to support the party. Ireland's tribal culture of politics is very ingrained I suppose.

To that long list of failures, f@ck-ups and foul deeds I would add the Corrib Gas Field giveaway.

I have never voted FF in my life, so I have always been peeved that I got the government other voters deserved.

Payback time again very soon... :cool:

Judgement Day

raymon wrote: »

FF attitude can be summed up in one word

Callely

See - it's like I said I had already completely forgotten about him in the tidal wave of corruption that we have been subjected to. :mad:

Incidentally, for all Mary Hanafin's 'charm' her dear old alcoholic/right wing catholic zealot dad, Senator Des Hanafin, was chief FF party fundraiser for years and got into some hot water in that regard too - if memory serves me.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/how-the-faithful-arose-and--gathered-money-for-charlie-371407.html

steelcityblues

"A slightly constitutional party" - Sean Lemass

oppenheimer1

Judgement Day wrote: »

See - it's like I said I had already completely forgotten about him in the tidal wave of corruption that we have been subjected to. :mad:

Incidentally, for all Mary Hanafin's 'charm' her dear old alcoholic/right wing catholic zealot dad, Senator Des Hanafin, was chief FF party fundraiser for years and got into some hot water in that regard too - if memory serves me.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/how-the-faithful-arose-and--gathered-money-for-charlie-371407.html

that is pathetic. you like to punish the daughter for the sins of her father? grow up would you

ISAW

Judgement Day wrote: »

As somebody who has detested the 'Soldiers of Destiny' for decades I shouldn't really start this but here goes anyway. Off the top of my head and in a chronolgical order a list of some of the nonsense that has gone during the last ten years or so of FF government. And before anyone asks it - I'm not and FG/Labour/Sinn Fein supporter either.

1999 Eircom sale fiasco.

The state got too much for it into0 the coffers and you are complaining?

2005 New prison site at Thornton Hall purchased for €30m - way more than land worth.

Bought by a PD Minister from the brother of an Independence University Senator.

2006 Aer Lingus sale.

This and electronic voting were by cullen a PD who later joined FF. Privitization was a PD mantra. Similarly Harney was FF then a PD who chanted the same mantra but later became independent.


2006 Great Southern Hotels sale.

2008 Abandonment of Asgard II sail training vessel - still not replaced!

Well it did sink! What do you expect? I agree however we should have a similar vessel . and it should not cost 12 million like the Jeanie Johnson which is unsuitable for tall ships races.

Isn't the old Galcador/ LE Creidne still in crosshaven?

I think Asgard II was insured for 3.8 million

You can get the bounty for a little over 3 million - 50 berths
http://www.easternyachts.com/bounty/index.htm

Jean de la Lune Brigantine 14 guests + 4 crew + 2 pilot berths
under a half million euro!

Antates 20m schooner
offers accommodation for up to 11 + in 4 cabins
~150k

For four million you could have all the above!

Other cock-ups
E-voting machines €51 million plus storage - ongoing.

Cullen again - see above. assisted by the Greens.

P Pars computer system for Health Service €130 million+

Again not FF - wasn't it Harney?

FAS scandal

Was harney's husband CEO of FAS? But Ill accept FF who waxed lyrical were in government over this. I believe civil service "esperts" hookwinked them with "knowledge economy" guff. But yes this is an acceptable example i would think.

HSE

Again harney! Not FF.

Bank Guarantee
2010 IMF comes to town

Yes these are also relevent examples bt I couldn't see FG or Lab doing any different.

Numerous Tribunals - cost unknown

Promoted by the PD again. I think dessie O Malley pushed the beef one. I do think Noonan did a good job on the Dail committee on public accounts as an alternative way of investigation.

Outed FF crooks during that period
Padraig Flynn

didnt actually break the law but was shown up as greedy.

Liam Lawlor

Also didnt break the law.

Ray Burke

was convicted of tax fraud.

Bertie Ahern

No conviction.

Frank Dunlop

did two years for corruption.

FF/PD incompetents during that period
Michael McDowell
Mary Harney
Willy O'Dea
Brian Lenihan
Brian Cowen

You began with 'Soldiers of Destiny' and now you add in the PD's? By the way none of the above have been charged with any crime as you allege.

Previous FF fixers/crooks

Charlie Haughey

Again didn't break any laws. No criminal charges ever brought.

Albert Reynolds
Padraig Flynn
Sean Doherty

Again didn't break any laws. No criminal charges ever brought.

In all honesty the list is very far from complete

And includes people from other parties? One's not in government.

but it has truly been a couple of awful decades both at home and abroad, and in common with most ordinary people my head is spinning trying to keep up as we stagger from one crisis to the next. Anyway, if after even the few things mentioned above anybody can tell me why anybody should ever vote for FF again I'd be interested to hear.

A number of FG councilors and ministers were also involved in deals like phone licenses and contracts for refrigeration and rezoning. why do you think only FF counts in this?

oppenheimer1

ISAW wrote: »

The state got too much for it into0 the coffers and you are complaining?



Bought by a PD Minister from the brother of an Independence University Senator.



This and electronic voting were by cullen a PD who later joined FF. Privitization was a PD mantra. Similarly Harney was FF then a PD who chanted the same mantra but later became independent.


2006 Great Southern Hotels sale.


Well it did sink! What do you expect? I agree however we should have a similar vessel . and it should not cost 12 million like the Jeanie Johnson which is unsuitable for tall ships races.

Isn't the old Galcador/ LE Creidne still in crosshaven?

I think Asgard II was insured for 3.8 million

You can get the bounty for a little over 3 million - 50 berths
http://www.easternyachts.com/bounty/index.htm

Jean de la Lune Brigantine 14 guests + 4 crew + 2 pilot berths
under a half million euro!

Antates 20m schooner
offers accommodation for up to 11 + in 4 cabins
~150k

For four million you could have all the above!



Cullen again - see above. assisted by the Greens.



Again not FF - wasn't it Harney?



Was harney's husband CEO of FAS? But Ill accept FF who waxed lyrical were in government over this. I believe civil service "esperts" hookwinked them with "knowledge economy" guff. But yes this is an acceptable example i would think.



Again harney! Not FF.



Yes these are also relevent examples bt I couldn't see FG or Lab doing any different.



Promoted by the PD again. I think dessie O Malley pushed the beef one. I do think Noonan did a good job on the Dail committee on public accounts as an alternative way of investigation.



didnt actually break the law but was shown up as greedy.



Also didnt break the law.



was convicted of tax fraud.



No conviction.



did two years for corruption.



You began with 'Soldiers of Destiny' and now you add in the PD's? By the way none of the above have been charged with any crime as you allege.



Again didn't break any laws. No criminal charges ever brought.



Again didn't break any laws. No criminal charges ever brought.



And includes people from other parties? One's not in government.



A number of FG councilors and ministers were also involved in deals like phone licenses and contracts for refrigeration and rezoning. why do you think only FF counts in this?

don't you know that innocent until proven guilty does not apply to any member of fianna fáil to the members of boards?

the rabble rabblers aren't very appreciative of facts when presented to them.

StupidLikeAFox

Benchmarking!!

GT_TDI_150

Min wrote: »

They are the biggest providers of education, healthcare and aid/charity in the world outside of governments.

Are you for real?
the church are also the biggest collection of child raping, coveringup peado's in the world

GT_TDI_150

ISAW wrote: »

The state got too much for it into0 the coffers and you are complaining?



Bought by a PD Minister from the brother of an Independence University Senator.



This and electronic voting were by cullen a PD who later joined FF. Privitization was a PD mantra. Similarly Harney was FF then a PD who chanted the same mantra but later became independent.


2006 Great Southern Hotels sale.


Well it did sink! What do you expect? I agree however we should have a similar vessel . and it should not cost 12 million like the Jeanie Johnson which is unsuitable for tall ships races.

Isn't the old Galcador/ LE Creidne still in crosshaven?

I think Asgard II was insured for 3.8 million

You can get the bounty for a little over 3 million - 50 berths
http://www.easternyachts.com/bounty/index.htm

Jean de la Lune Brigantine 14 guests + 4 crew + 2 pilot berths
under a half million euro!

Antates 20m schooner
offers accommodation for up to 11 + in 4 cabins
~150k

For four million you could have all the above!



Cullen again - see above. assisted by the Greens.



Again not FF - wasn't it Harney?



Was harney's husband CEO of FAS? But Ill accept FF who waxed lyrical were in government over this. I believe civil service "esperts" hookwinked them with "knowledge economy" guff. But yes this is an acceptable example i would think.



Again harney! Not FF.



Yes these are also relevent examples bt I couldn't see FG or Lab doing any different.



Promoted by the PD again. I think dessie O Malley pushed the beef one. I do think Noonan did a good job on the Dail committee on public accounts as an alternative way of investigation.



didnt actually break the law but was shown up as greedy.



Also didnt break the law.



was convicted of tax fraud.



No conviction.



did two years for corruption.



You began with 'Soldiers of Destiny' and now you add in the PD's? By the way none of the above have been charged with any crime as you allege.



Again didn't break any laws. No criminal charges ever brought.



Again didn't break any laws. No criminal charges ever brought.



And includes people from other parties? One's not in government.



A number of FG councilors and ministers were also involved in deals like phone licenses and contracts for refrigeration and rezoning. why do you think only FF counts in this?

I thought the HSE was Martin's brain child?

Sleepy

You cannot dismiss failures of the chief government party of the last 12 years as being the mistakes of the junior partners. It doesn't matter where the ideas for the cock-ups came from: Fianna Fail still rammed them through the Dáil.

We have no need of a corrupt, policy-less, old-boys club in Irish politics. We have a centre-left party in labour, a slightly right leaning centre in Fine Gael and some nut-jobs on the far left in Sinn Fein, People Before Profit, Socialist Worker's Party etc.

Unless Fianna Fail are about to become a right-wing party and jettison the criminals, incompetents and gombeen men from within their ranks (which, let's face it, would halve the number of members or more) we have no place for them in Irish politics.

Judgement Day

ISAW - you're so right you know - I told you I was bamboozled by the tide of corruption. I should have realised that it was all somebody else's fault! Away now to your FF cumman and prepare for the canvas.

PS Maybe like Bobby Ewing we will all get out of the shower some morning and it will all have been a bad dream.



Plenty more for FF groupies here: http://www.soldiersofdestiny.org/rip.htm

bmaxi

Aw c'mon now lads, Micheál has said he's sorry. What more can a man do? :rolleyes:

Laminations

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

don't you know that innocent until proven guilty does not apply to any member of fianna fáil to the members of boards?

the rabble rabblers aren't very appreciative of facts when presented to them.

Ah yes, Haughey wasn't convicted, Bertie wasn't convicted, Callely wasn't convicted. Do you wonder why you're called the party of cute hoors?

You fail to see a distinction between ethical/moral standards and the letter of the law, or at least you see the difference but care little for the former. FF is in some peoples blood, and so the acceptance and defence of corruption and dodginess is also deeply ingrained.

The fact that you try and qualify a criticism of Haughey (who its now known was a schemeing selfish scheister) with 'ah but it wasn't illegal' means you miss the whole point.

Manach

Laminations wrote: »

Ah yes, Haughey wasn't convicted, Bertie wasn't convicted, Callely wasn't convicted. Do you wonder why you're called the party of cute hoors?

You fail to see a distinction between ethical/moral standards and the letter of the law, or at least you see the difference but care little for the former. FF is in some peoples blood, and so the acceptance and defence of corruption and dodginess is also deeply ingrained.

The fact that you try and qualify a criticism of Haughey (who its now known was a schemeing selfish scheister) with 'ah but it wasn't illegal' means you miss the whole point.

Ethics and morally are mutable and subject to change, but justice has to contend with the existing letter of the law.
My imperfect understanding of the law is,
If you wish you might try and take a private civil prosectution against various Politicians. Offhand I'm unsure what they could be charged with under the statute book, and that AFAIK that there is a blanket prohibition against suing state servants for doing their job in the civil law, or else if they broke parts of the constitution that you might lack the necessary standing to show you were particularly disadvantaged by their actions.

oppenheimer1

Laminations wrote: »

Ah yes, Haughey wasn't convicted, Bertie wasn't convicted, Callely wasn't convicted. Do you wonder why you're called the party of cute hoors?

You fail to see a distinction between ethical/moral standards and the letter of the law, or at least you see the difference but care little for the former. FF is in some peoples blood, and so the acceptance and defence of corruption and dodginess is also deeply ingrained.

The fact that you try and qualify a criticism of Haughey (who its now known was a schemeing selfish scheister) with 'ah but it wasn't illegal' means you miss the whole point.

do you believe in the concept of innocent until proven guilty?

Laminations

Or I can just not vote for a party that condones and votes confidence in dodgy greedy ethically deficient (judged by current expected standards, to avoid your escape clause that ethics are intangible and in constant flux) individuals.

If you do choose to vote for them, then you also condone their underhand, dodgy but technically not illegal (nudge nudge wink wink) behaviour. Cute hoors.

oppenheimer1

Laminations wrote: »

Or I can just not vote for a party that condones and votes confidence in dodgy greedy ethically deficient (judged by current expected standards, to avoid your escape clause that ethics are intangible and in constant flux) individuals.

If you do choose to vote for them, then you also condone their underhand, dodgy but technically not illegal (nudge nudge wink wink) behaviour. Cute hoors.

or you could answer the question i put to you

Laminations

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

do you believe in the concept of innocent until proven guilty?

Hide behind the letter of the law all you want. What's the law again for not being 'dodgy'? How does one apply the law to Bertie saying he feels no responsibility for the state of the country or FF? Opinions are based or more than just legal/illegal.

It's not illegal to leave your elderly parents to die on their own. Am I supposed to have shiny happy views of people who treat their mothers like sh1t because 'well it's not illegal and they weren't convicted of anything'

FF through and through, defend the indefensible.

Laminations

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

or you could answer the question i put to you

Tha reply you took umbrage with was meant for Manach. I've responded to you obfuscation above

oppenheimer1

Laminations wrote: »

Hide behind the letter of the law all you want. What's the law again for not being 'dodgy'? How does one apply the law to Bertie saying he feels no responsibility for the state of the country or FF? Opinions are based or more than just legal/illegal.

It's not illegal to leave your elderly parents to die on their own. Am I supposed to have shiny happy views of people who treat their mothers like sh1t because 'well it's not illegal and they weren't convicted of anything'

FF through and through, defend the indefensible.

still not answering the question.


btw we are not disagreeing about what is legal and illegal, because corruption most certainly is illegal and i condemn it. but i like to condemn those who have been proven in a court of law to have engaged in corruption.

Laminations

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

still not answering the question.

Yes I did, you just failed to understand the answer. I agree with the concept of innocent til proven guilty, but how is one innocent of being dodgy and selfish when their behaviour proves otherwise. It's not up to the law to shape my opinions of these people.

btw we are not disagreeing about what is legal and illegal, because corruption most certainly is illegal and i condemn it. but i like to condemn those who have been proven in a court of law to have engaged in corruption.

Why try and narrow it to the specific legal definition of corruption?
What you've done, whether you realise it or not is say:

What Haughey did was fine, what Bertie did was fine, what Callely did was fine.

I never said what they did was illegal but it certainly isn't acceptable in my eyes. By arguing against me you are suggesting it was acceptable - because it wasn't illegal

oppenheimer1

Laminations wrote: »

Yes I did, you just failed to understand the answer. I agree with the concept of innocent til proven guilty, but how is one innocent of being dodgy and selfish when their behaviour proves otherwise. It's not up to the law to shape my opinions of these people.



Why try and narrow it to the specific legal definition of corruption?
What you've done, whether you realise it or not is say:

What Haughey did was fine, what Bertie did was fine, what Callely did was fine.

I never said what they did was illegal but it certainly isn't acceptable in my eyes. By arguing against me you are suggesting it was acceptable - because it wasn't illegal

it doesn't seem like you do believe in it because this behaviour that you are accusing many FF members of is illegal but there have been no convictions for it.

and please stop putting words in my mouth, it's not clever, as i said earlier i condemn corruption but i like to condemn those who have been convicted of it in a court of law

Dravokivich

Laminations wrote: »

Why try and narrow it to the specific legal definition of corruption?
What you've done, whether you realise it or not is say:

What Haughey did was fine, what Bertie did was fine, what Callely did was fine.

eh... no he isn't.

Laminations

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

and please stop putting words in my mouth, it's not clever, as i said earlier i condemn corruption but i like to condemn those who have been convicted of it in a court of law

I condemn corruption but I can also condemn Haughey, Bertie and Callely, whether I call their behaviour corrupt or just morally and ethically bankrupt. I'm sure after all his dodgy testimony and memory lapse and all the money running through his accounts, you'll still not condemn Bertie, you'll wait for Mahon to tell you how to think.

Corruption aside, do you:

Condemn Haughey for profiteering from his office and embezzling money.

Condemn Bertie for his dodgy accounting and uncooperative behaviour during Mahon

Condemn Callely for abusing a systems loopholes to enrich himself

Big Vern

Not sure if it has been mentioned, but decentralisation was another waste of money....

Laminations

Dravokivich wrote: »

eh... no he isn't.

Well I've now invited him to come out and publicly condemn them

mikemac

Judgement Day wrote: »

1999 Eircom sale fiasco.

Some investors made money and a lot of amateurs lost but that's what happens, share prices rise and fall

And then complain they were mislead and Fine Gael makes a populist measure for compensation for the small investor :rolleyes:
Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

If the Eircom shares were too underpriced you would be complaining also that the State was giving away its assets.
Overpriced and investors who got caught in the hype lose out

How exactly do you manage this to keep everyone happy so? Seems that you can't, there are winners and loser when share prices move

ucd.1985

HSE was Martin's brainchild.

Wasnt he the Minister responsible when the overcharging mental patients came about?

Judgement Day

Another point I overlooked is the appalling law and order situation particularly drugs, gangland killings etc collectively presided over by FF/PDS and the Greens. I nearly threw the TV out the window when on a recent TV programme about drug crime in Limerick the best that Willy O'Dea could come up with was to say "it wasn't a Limerick problem it was countrywide" - that's some legacy. Des O'Malley was on the same programme wringing his hands about drugs and the creation of ghettoes like O'Malley Park, Moyross etc. Jesus - these were the people elected and trusted to run the country and this is the best defence that they can come up with. :rolleyes: