View from outside the box

Lawrence1895

Didn't know how else I could call this thread...

I came to Ireland from Germany more than 6 years ago, I guess, I settled down quite well and until now I had a good time.

But now I'm sitting here, thinking about of what might happen next and after the General Election in February.

Will the same thing happen as they happened years ago in Germany?
1. Recession
2. People (quite understandable) unhappy with the government
3. People voting for the next biggest party
4. Things getting worse for the working class, lone parents, jobseekers, pensioners, people with disabilities, etc., because the voters didn't read the small print.

I really hope for the sake of this country, that something like this won't happen, because I think, it's people want a real change to the good and they deserve it.

But is a party, who was fast enough to support the consensus for cuts (we might call it 'Finance Bill'), the right solution? I don't think so, I'm afraid.

It might be a vision, a very diluted one indeed, but when I close my eyes, thinking about a country, which gave me a decent home for the past 6 years, I suddenly see the letters 'FF' changing to 'FG' and back again

Eliot Rosewater

Lars1916 wrote: »

But is a party, who was fast enough to support the consensus for cuts (we might call it 'Finance Bill'), the right solution? I don't think so, I'm afraid.

Really? Perhaps you might explain how the government will close the budget deficit? (It was about €18 billion last year, I think) Assuming, of course, you cancel the IMF/EU deal, which is premised on the cuts programme.

Lawrence1895

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Really? Perhaps you might explain how the government will close the budget deficit? (It was about €18 billion last year, I think) Assuming, of course, you cancel the IMF/EU deal, which is premised on the cuts programme.

The deficit has to be closed somehow, that's for sure. But why is it always those on low incomes who have to suffer most? Why does almost nobody want to tackle the rich and wealthy? :mad:

nesf

Lars1916 wrote: »

The deficit has to be closed somehow, that's for sure. But why is it always those on low incomes who have to suffer most? Why does almost nobody want to tackle the rich and wealthy? :mad:

The gap is far too large to be closed without doing distasteful things like taxing the poor and docking the wages of nurses, Gardaí and similar.

There is no easy politically pleasing way to get out of this hole. That is the core problem. We're just debating different ways to screw ourselves over to get out of this mess.

Lawrence1895

nesf wrote: »

The gap is far too large to be closed without doing distasteful things like taxing the poor and docking the wages of nurses, Gardaí and similar.

There is no easy politically pleasing way to get out of this hole. That is the core problem. We're just debating different ways to screw ourselves over to get out of this mess.

I guess, a wealthy tax is something, nobody of the established parties wants to hear about...

Or putting all taxpayer's money into the public healthcare, rather than funding private healthcare, plus creating one tax loophole after the next...

nesf

Lars1916 wrote: »

I guess, a wealthy tax is something, nobody of the established parties wants to hear about...

Or putting all taxpayer's money into the public healthcare, rather than funding private healthcare, plus creating one tax loophole after the next...

Wealth taxes are problematic because those most easily able to move country and maintain standards of living tend to be the wealthiest. The other problem is the proposed wealth taxes from the leftmost parties would mostly catch dual income families, like two teachers or similar which isn't exactly what's conjured in the mind when one thinks of those who'll be effected by a wealth tax.


We already put more taxpayers' money per capita into public healthcare than the majority of Europe. The problem isn't us not putting enough money in, it's how it's spent within the system. It might appear that we don't put a lot of money into healthcare and education but in reality we put in a lot already, we're just not getting good returns on our investments in these areas.

Scofflaw

Lars1916 wrote: »

The deficit has to be closed somehow, that's for sure. But why is it always those on low incomes who have to suffer most? Why does almost nobody want to tackle the rich and wealthy? :mad:

Because governments already tax the rich like billy-ho. The reason it looks as if the less well off are the people being hardest at the moment hit is because the less well off have been almost entirely out of the income tax net for most of the bubble - see Ronan Lyons rather good post on the subject here: http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/04/27/are-irish-workers-undertaxed/

What's psychologically important, I suppose, is, first, that the less well off feel they have less choice in the matter of paying tax - the rich are able to hire accountants, to take advantage of tax breaks, to reside abroad, and generally try to arrange things in a way that minimises their tax burden. Even though the rich still end up paying a much higher effective rate of tax than the less well off, they are less passive victims of it.

Second, the amount that the rich pay in tax is usually multiples of average earnings, coming from incomes that are many multiples of the earnings of the lower paid. The return on money at the bottom of the wage scale is much higher than at the top, so the lower paid feels very keenly the deprivation caused by a couple of thousand in tax, where the wealthy - particularly the very wealthy - don't feel their deprivation so strongly.

Nevertheless, the rich pay a higher proportion of their incomes as tax than the lower paid.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

danbohan

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

that might be how fianna fail operates , what it defiantly is is a very accurate prediction of ireland for next 4 -8 years

munchkin_utd

some graph!
Irish people do not GET that they are paying fup all in tax.

My pertinent example is that 20grand in Ireland bags you 18,300 approx after EVERYTHING (tax/ prsi/ levy/ health etc etc)
In Germany you have 13,700 approx after everything.
So in Ireland as a low paid worker you have 50% MORE cash in hand.

And the dole. Thats 375 MONTH in cash in germany compared to 800+ in Ireland (plus rent allowance is more generous in Ireland too).

WHY are the lefties in Ireland complaining?
Its a bloody paradise for the working majority.

EDIT: from the graph you'll see how out of kilter the Bertie free tax giveaways have made ireland compared low tax nations such as the USA

Lawrence1895

munchkin_utd wrote: »

some graph!
Irish people do not GET that they are paying fup all in tax.

My pertinent example is that 20grand in Ireland bags you 18,300 approx after EVERYTHING (tax/ prsi/ levy/ health etc etc)
In Germany you have 13,700 approx after everything.
So in Ireland as a low paid worker you have 50% MORE cash in hand.

And the dole. Thats 375 MONTH in cash in germany compared to 800+ in Ireland (plus rent allowance is more generous in Ireland too).

WHY are the lefties in Ireland complaining?
Its a bloody paradise for the working majority.

EDIT: from the graph you'll see how out of kilter the Bertie free tax giveaways have made ireland compared low tax nations such as the USA

You mentioned Germany there, so please let me explain something. The prices for renting an apartment are much lower than in Ireland, even if most of all places come unfurbished...but once on the dole you get a supplement for buying furniture anyway.

But it's much harder to get on the dole nowadays, the government set out strict rules a decade ago:
The state's employment agency (like FAS, but they look after jobseeker's benefit/unemployment benefit, too) will offer you a job, if you refuse to take it, your money is cut down to 60%, if you refuse again, you might loose it at all.
The only reasons to refuse are if you are a lone parent looking after a child, if you are looking after a sick family member or if you lie in the middle of nowhere without any car or public transport.
Apart from that, you are supposed to travel 90 minutes to work and back, and you sometimes have to underachieve, e.g. a nurse might have to take a job as a Care Worker.

Some people are well able to survive on 'Hartz IV' (dole payment for the longer unemployed, i.e. 6 months+), but it's just surviving...

d'Oracle

Lars1916 wrote: »

Will the same thing happen as they happened years ago in Germany?

No. We will never save enough to effectively bankroll a credit boom in another country.

Lars1916 wrote: »

It might be a vision, a very diluted one indeed, but when I close my eyes, thinking about a country, which gave me a decent home for the past 6 years, I suddenly see the letters 'FF' changing to 'FG' and back again

That is basically how it has always worked.

ei.sdraob

Lars1916 wrote: »

The deficit has to be closed somehow, that's for sure. But why is it always those on low incomes who have to suffer most? Why does almost nobody want to tackle the rich and wealthy? :mad:

Do you have any evidence that those on low incomes have suffered the most? I would be interested to see some real facts and less waffle.

Lawrence1895

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Do you have any evidence that those on low incomes have suffered the most? I would be interested to see some real facts and less waffle.

I just need to have a look onto my own pay-slip, and compare it with the income of one of the managers in my company.

But it seems to be true, the rich and wealthy seem to be more capable to find tax loopholes, for what reason ever :mad:

Scofflaw

Lars1916 wrote: »

I just need to have a look onto my own pay-slip, and compare it with the income of one of the managers in my company.

Actually, that just means you're being paid less than your manager.

Lars1916 wrote: »

But it seems to be true, the rich and wealthy seem to be more capable to find tax loopholes, for what reason ever :mad:

Er, yes, and yet still they pay a higher proportion of their incomes in tax. Those are the facts.

cordially,
Scofflaw

LeixlipRed

A lower proportion of nothing is still nothing.

Lawrence1895

Scofflaw wrote: »

Actually, that just means you're being paid less than your manager.



Er, yes, and yet still they pay a higher proportion of their incomes in tax. Those are the facts.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Well, I understand. But what about the pay cuts in the Health Sector? 5% for all employees and 'voluntary' pay cuts for those high up in the system. They can tell us, they took off 10% off their salaries, but I have problems to believe them

ei.sdraob

LeixlipRed wrote: »

A lower proportion of nothing is still nothing.

Lower income != no income
Anyways someone on no income (for whatever reason either due to loosing job or not bothering to get one in first place) does have income in the form of welfare.

but I guess you knew that already.

Lars1916

Lars1916 wrote: »

You mentioned Germany there, so please let me explain something. The prices for renting an apartment are much lower than in Ireland, even if most of all places come unfurbished...but once on the dole you get a supplement for buying furniture anyway.

But it's much harder to get on the dole nowadays, the government set out strict rules a decade ago:
The state's employment agency (like FAS, but they look after jobseeker's benefit/unemployment benefit, too) will offer you a job, if you refuse to take it, your money is cut down to 60%, if you refuse again, you might loose it at all.
The only reasons to refuse are if you are a lone parent looking after a child, if you are looking after a sick family member or if you lie in the middle of nowhere without any car or public transport.
Apart from that, you are supposed to travel 90 minutes to work and back, and you sometimes have to underachieve, e.g. a nurse might have to take a job as a Care Worker.

Some people are well able to survive on 'Hartz IV' (dole payment for the longer unemployed, i.e. 6 months+), but it's just surviving...

They expect you to take a job you're offered while on the dole? Oh the horror of it all.

That's EXACTLY how the dole should be run over here.

Scofflaw

Lars1916 wrote: »

Well, I understand. But what about the pay cuts in the Health Sector? 5% for all employees and 'voluntary' pay cuts for those high up in the system. They can tell us, they took off 10% off their salaries, but I have problems to believe them

And without transparency in the system, you've no way of knowing whether they are or aren't telling the truth - but it's hardly relevant to the question of whether the better off pay a higher proportion of their incomes in tax.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Capt'n Midnight

Lars1916 wrote: »

Will the same thing happen as they happened years ago in Germany?
1. Recession
2. People (quite understandable) unhappy with the government
3. People voting for the next biggest party
4. Things getting worse for the working class, lone parents, jobseekers, pensioners, people with disabilities, etc., because the voters didn't read the small print.

reminds me of 1933

things will get worse , because I suspect that FF are still hiding as much bad news as they could.

After the election we might just get all the bad news that IS still being drip fed to us out in the open and then we will know just how bad it is and once we know things can't get worse we can start to climb out of the hole

Lawrence1895

Scofflaw wrote: »

And without transparency in the system, you've no way of knowing whether they are or aren't telling the truth - but it's hardly relevant to the question of whether the better off pay a higher proportion of their incomes in tax.

cordially,
Scofflaw

The rich and wealthy might pay more income tax, but still...I am convinced, that more can be done to let the rich and wealthy contribute. But implementing a wealth tax seems to be a no-go for all established parties and I am sure, some CEOs, managers and so called celebrities will have a big grin on their face once again.

Scofflaw

Lars1916 wrote: »

The rich and wealthy might pay more income tax, but still...I am convinced, that more can be done to let the rich and wealthy contribute. But implementing a wealth tax seems to be a no-go for all established parties and I am sure, some CEOs, managers and so called celebrities will have a big grin on their face once again.

That's probably true. The well-off have probably been undertaxed in Ireland just as the less well-off have been.

cordially,
Scofflaw

NSNO

The biggest problem is the definition of "well-off". How can you tax the wealthy without defining it?

And that's where the problem lies.... Where does wealthiness begin? There are plenty of dual-income, middle-class families with a truckload of commitments for whom extra taxation simply cannot be born.

When you are talking about higher taxes for those who can afford it, you are talking about the middle class. The vast majority of the truly wealthy can easily afford to pick up sticks and move elsewhere, or at least move their wealthy elsewhere.

Unfortunately, increased taxation simply cannot make up the bulk of the correction needed in the public finances. The only thing further increases in taxation will result in will be a wave of middle-class mortgage defaults and a further crisis in our banking and property sectors.