Reserve Polizei Battalion 102 - Photo album

Morlar

Here are some pictures from the photo album of a man believed to be from the Reserve Polizei Battalion 102.

The full 480 pictures are in 2 parts here :

http://www.militaria-archive.com/albums3.html

If anyone can add information to this about units, locations, dates, background info or any more specific details or corrections then please let me know (& I will update it when I put all the corrections together).

Reserve Polizei Battalion 102 - Polizei-Kampfgruppe 'Jeckeln', Leningrad Pt1 & Pt2

Photo album of a man from the Reserve Polizei Battalion 102. This battalion was raised in Hamburg in 1939 and deployed to Poland (I/2, II/2, III/3, later 101, 102, 103), within police group 2, under army high command 10 (AOK 10). Assembled on 1.09.1939 then transported to Poland on 6.09.1939. They were initially posted to Kielce, Tomaszow and Konskie and then by train to Breslau, and from there to Tschenstochau by Hamburg buses. It is said that. 'During this phase of the war the police battalions were active in the repressive measures taken against the civil population, including executions following drumhead court-martials held by the army, the SS or police, in combat against the Polish regular army, the guarding of prisoners of war, the support of units of the SS and SD (SS Security Service), the gathering of weapons, and in the 'resettlement' of the native population ('Umsiedlungsaktionen').' Police Battalion 102 was allegedly involved in the shooting of 'hostages' during the advance on Rawa. This album appears to begin in Slovenia, centring on Zirklach (DE Name) Cerklje na Gorenjskem and Krainburg. On 10th March 1942 Reserve-Polizei-Bataillon 102 reinforced Polizei-Kampfgruppe 'Jeckeln' on 'combat operations' ('Kampfeinsatz') in front of Leningrad. The path to and vicinity of Leningrad is charted by pictures from Oranienbaum, Duderhof, Staryye Medushi, Peterhof (known as Petrodvorets), Tsarkoe Selo, Pushkin, The Catherine Palace (with troops of the Spanish Legion). Krasnogwardeisk, Krasnoje- Selo, Petersburg (Gatchina Imperial Palace), Djetskoje- Selo & 1942 Leningrad. There are many pictures of the aftermath of fighting in the areas around Leningrad from 1942 including downed YAK-3 and many showing the area of the Wolchow front which saw some of the heaviest fighting of the Eastern Front. There are several pictures of destroyed Russian Tanks, German PzKpfw 743(r) tractor and StuG III Ausf.D assault gun, trucks and field guns. This includes several photos showing knocked out German guns surrounded by multiple human skulls of the war dead on the nearby ground. The Wolchow front pictures also show evacuation of civilians and the narrow guage railway in action. There are several pictures of these men in the company of SS men and this Reserve Polizei Battalion was to join SS Polize Regiment 16 in 1943. The final pictures in the album appear to come from late 1942 Alexandrowka, then 1943 Staryye Gorki & Newel (Russia). The final page of the album contains an Entlausungsschein, De-Lousing certificate from 1944 Riga. Often required to board a train home from the front. (Please see further notes on the main page which do not fit here for space reasons). Graves featured include : Emil Grand, Polizei-Oberwachtmeister, born 08.03.1908, John Lattner,Polizei-Wachtmeister, b 03.04.1903, Rudolf Kühn, Polizei-Wachtmeister, b 29.03.1902.All KIA 20.11.1942 Krasnoje Selo, buried in Duderhof Ost Leningrad Rußland.

Morlar

Trainstop






Winter patrol

Morlar

1942 Staryye Medushi - Старые Медуши - Oranienbaum Kessel (Oranienbaum Cauldron)



Anti-tank defences 1942 Peterhof /Petrodvorets - approach to Leningrad




1942 Peterhof /Petrodvorets - approach to Leningrad

Morlar

Tram 1942 Peterhof /Petrodvorets - approach to Leningrad



1942 Channolowo






Men of the Reserve Polizei Battalion 102 with unidentified SS at 1942 Channolowo



1942 Krasnoje Selo (Кра́сное Село́)

Morlar

1942 Krasnoje Selo (Кра́сное Село́) Polizei & SS



1942 Krasnogwardeisk (Красногварде́йск) also known as "Red Guard City", Location of Gratchina Palace



1942 Pushkin, Leningrad (with the Spanish Legion)

Morlar

1942 Tsarkie Selo, Pushkin, Location of Catherine Palace





1942 Tsarkie Selo, Pushkin, Location of Catherine Palace

Morlar

SS Themed christmas celebration



1942 Leningrad (30 August)


1942 Leningrad

Morlar

1942 Leningrad







Leningrad 1942 - With unidentified SS


1942 Alexandrowka

Morlar

Emil Grand, Polizei-Oberwachtmeister, born 08.03.1908, John Lattner,Polizei-Wachtmeister, b 03.04.1903, Rudolf Kühn, Polizei-Wachtmeister, b 29.03.1902.All KIA 20.11.1942 Krasnoje Selo, buried in Duderhof Ost Leningrad Rußland.



1943 Staryye Gorki, Russia



1943 Staryye Gorki, Russia

Morlar

1943 Staryye Gorki, Russia



1942 Leningrad

Morlar

1943 Wolchow \ Volkhov

Morlar

1943 Wolchow \ Volkhov

Morlar

1943 Wolchow \ Volkhov

Morlar

1943 Wolchow \ Volkhov

Morlar

1943 Wolchow \ Volkhov

Morlar

1943 Wolchow \ Volkhov





(These are the photos where the ground is littered with human remains)

Morlar

1943 Wolchow \ Volkhov

Morlar

1943 Wolchow \ Volkhov

Morlar

1943 Wolchow \ Volkhov







Communist Surrender literature

Morlar

1943 Newel, Russia

Morlar

Morlar

(last few)







Last picture from the album - 1944 Riga, Entlausungsschein, De-Lousing certificate. Often required to board a train home from the front



Again if anyone can add information to these pictures please let me know. The full album in 2 parts is here :

http://www.militaria-archive.com/albums3.html

jonniebgood1

Morlar wrote: »

If anyone can add information to this about units, locations, dates, background info or any more specific details or corrections then please let me know (& I will update it when I put all the corrections together).

Reserve Polizei Battalion 102 - Polizei-Kampfgruppe 'Jeckeln', Leningrad Pt1 & Pt2

Interesting Photos.
Some further background info:
First stationed in Poland

A total number of 17 Police Battalions, stationed as active police, were deployed within the framework of the army high command (Armeeoberkommando (AOK)), in the invasion of Poland. These 17 police battalions were organized into six police groups, three Hamburg police battalions being among them: (I/2, II/2, III/3, later 101, 102, 103), within police group 2, under army high command 10 (AOK 10).

The Reserve Police Battalions 102 and 305 were, from 1942, deployed in "combat operations" ("Kampfeinsatz") on the Eastern Front outside Leningrad. Here they fought in the front line, whereas, for example, Reserve Police Battalion 105 (from Bremen, and a part from Hamburg) was deployed behind the frone line. These operations included, as was the case with all other police battalions, so-called "anti-guerilla warfare" ("Bandenkämpfung"), carried out against partisan groups in occupied territory. Operation reports show that the majority of the victims of such action were the civil population, especially the Jewish population. It is rarely the case that comprehensive investigations or legal proceedings were carried out against the perpetrators. The "Bandenkämpfung" has always been regarded as "typical police" ("polizeitypischer") action during the Second World War, and there has never been an objective investigation, a detailed analysis or critical assessment of this operation.

taken from http://www1.uni-hamburg.de/rz3a035//police101.html

They are not implicated in war crimes to the same extent as the 101 battalion, however there is some information linking the 102 with the liquidisation of ghetto in Kremenets.
page 352 of 'Holocaust: The Nazi Persecution and Murder of the Jews' By Peter Longerich.
I think the reference to kremenecs is actually meant to be kremenets, depends on launguage I suppose. There is a similar named region in slovakia and Ukraine.

Morlar

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Interesting Photos.
Some further background info:
First stationed in Poland

taken from http://www1.uni-hamburg.de/rz3a035//police101.html

Hi - cheers for that. This link is however mentioned in the sources :

http://www.militaria-archive.com/albums3.html

There are a few more here :

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Zusatz/SS/Ordnungspolizei-R.htm
http://www1.uni-hamburg.de/rz3a035//police101.html
http://www.ordnungspolizei.org/

http://luftwaffefielddivisions.devhub.com/operations
http://www.denkmalprojekt.org/2009/marsberg-obermarsberg_wk2_nrw.htm
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=7593.240
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?;topic=7593.0

Wolchow
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=44059

newel
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=161073

There are also a host of books on Leningrad which cover the Kampfgruppe etc.

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

They are not implicated in war crimes to the same extent as the 101 battalion, however there is some information linking the 102 with the liquidisation of ghetto in Kremenets.
page 352 of 'Holocaust: The Nazi Persecution and Murder of the Jews' By Peter Longerich.
I think the reference to kremenecs is actually meant to be kremenets, depends on launguage I suppose. There is a similar named region in slovakia and Ukraine.

Your attached jpeg is very interesting and I was not aware of them in that book, so cheers for that.

I could be mistaken but I do not believe they were convicted of anything :

http://www.militaria-archive.com/albums3.html

Notes : In 1961 and 1962, extensive investigations were carried out by the Hamburg criminal investigation department on grounds of "suspicion of murder or accessory to murder" ("Verdachts des Mordes bzw der Beihilfe zum Mord"), following preliminary proceedings carried out at the request of the judiciary in Ludwigsburg. Investigations were carried out against a total of 677 policemen who had been members of police battalions deployed in Poland. Police Battalions 101, 102, 103 and 305 were implemented. Legal proceedings were undertaken separately against the police battalions 101, 102, 104, and 305. The judiciary and public prosecutor's office determined that, regarding the arrest of "hostages", and the "Evakuierung", the term was accepted, i.e. the deportation of people to the extermination camps, the crimes, if seen as crimes at all, were deemed as "wrongful deprivation of personal liberty" ("Freiheitsberaubung"), which in the meantime came under the statute of limitations, (the legislative enactment prescribing the period of time within which proceedings must be instituted to enforce a right or bring an action at law). No incriminating evidence was found regarding the participation in executions, even after investigations were carried out in Poland. No criminal proceedings were taken in connection with executions carried out following drumhead court-martials. Executions carried out without prior legal proceedings, which could not be proved, were regarded as possible accessory to murder/manslaughter. In 1965 the proceedings were discontinued "for lack of evidence of a punishable offence", or as the crimes had come under the statute of limitations. Source : http://www1.uni-hamburg.de/rz3a035//police101.html

It is always possible that they have been mis-identified in this album. However it does seem odd that your holocaust book puts them in Pochayev, Kremenets & Wisniowiec (Ukraine) around August and September when the information I have is as follows :

On 10th March 1942 Reserve-Polizei-Bataillon 102 reinforced Polizei-Kampfgruppe 'Jeckeln' on 'combat operations' ('Kampfeinsatz') in front of Leningrad.

This seems reinforced by pictures in this album which instead of the Ukraine place them all around Leningrad and environs all through this timeframe :

1942 Leningrad



30th August 1942 Leningrad


The jpeg you posted from that book is also unclear as to how many men from the 102, it could mean 1 or 2 or it could mean 500 of them so I think it is useful information to have but on it's own it is not necessarily definitive. I think I would need to do more reading on this to be convinced. There is another highly regarded book that I would love to get hold of unfortunately it's not cheap and it's in German :

Other Book Stefan Klemp Nicht Ermittelt
Polizeibataillone und die Nachkriegsjustiz- Ein Handbuch

There are also books here which may clear up some of this :

http://www.ordnungspolizei.org

BlaasForRafa

Morlar wrote: »

1943 Staryye Gorki, Russia

Is that a Bergmann MP35? Its interesting to see one as opposed to the ubiqutous MP40.

Also, don't suppose you'd have any info as to whether it operated better in cold temps and rough conditions of the eastern front?

Morlar

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Is that a Bergmann MP35? Its interesting to see one as opposed to the ubiqutous MP40.

Also, don't suppose you'd have any info as to whether it operated better in cold temps and rough conditions of the eastern front?

I believe it is, though I have no idea if it performed better in cold conditions. I believe it is shown in one other photo (in a weapons stack at Wolchow) but it appears also to be autumn now winter.

jonniebgood1

Morlar wrote: »

Your attached jpeg is very interesting and I was not aware of them in that book, so cheers for that.

I could be mistaken but I do not believe they were convicted of anything :
.......

The jpeg you posted from that book is also unclear as to how many men from the 102, it could mean 1 or 2 or it could mean 500 of them so I think it is useful information to have but on it's own it is not necessarily definitive. I think I would need to do more reading on this to be convinced. There is another highly regarded book that I would love to get hold of unfortunately it's not cheap and it's in German :

There are other possible explanations- Perhaps there is a panzer battalion 102 rather than police battalion referenced, or something like that?
I have found further references to battalion 102 being used in mass shootings in the Ukraine. The reference does NOT have the word 'police' before the reference to battalion 102.

Morlar

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

There are other possible explanations- Perhaps there is a panzer battalion 102 rather than police battalion referenced, or something like that?
I have found further references to battalion 102 being used in mass shootings in the Ukraine. The reference does NOT have the word 'police' before the reference to battalion 102.

I'd definitely be interested in those links /references if you get the chance.

jonniebgood1

Morlar wrote: »

I'd definitely be interested in those links /references if you get the chance.

I will post the reference in morning when I check it. As previously stated though I suspect it is a different 102 Battalion, perhaps from 30th waffen SS. Im not big into the division names, etc, but think that the references to 102 battalion in Ukraine may be a different battalion than your photos

The Ukrainians formed the 102nd and 108th Battalions under the command of Sturmbannführer Lev Hloba and Hauptsturmführer A. Negrebetzk respectively. The battalions were assigned anti-partisan duties in the Belfort Gap.

http://www.division.cc/30th_SS_en.htm

BlaasForRafa

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

I will post the reference in morning when I check it. As previously stated though I suspect it is a different 102 Battalion, perhaps from 30th waffen SS. Im not big into the division names, etc, but think that the references to 102 battalion in Ukraine may be a different battalion than your photos
http://www.division.cc/30th_SS_en.htm

Looks like you've solved that conundrum. The 102 battalion in Ukraine was a Waffen SS battalion with a Waffen SS designation. The 102 battalion in this thread title is given that designation by the Polizei.

There was also an SS 102nd Heavy Panzer battalion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Heavy_Panzer_Battalion_102 and there was a Divisions-Füsilier-Battalion 102 as part of the 102nd Infantry Division (Heer) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/102nd_Infantry_Division_%28Germany%29

So they're all 102nd battalions, just from different services.

jonniebgood1

Morlar wrote: »

I'd definitely be interested in those links /references if you get the chance.

Irrelevent Now but here is reference as requested above, taken from 'The shoah in Ukraine' by ray Brandon and Wendy Lower, pg. 55.


As previously said it refers to 'battalion 102' as opposed to piece quoted in my 1st post which refers to 'police battalion 102'.

Dr Strange

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Is that a Bergmann MP35? Its interesting to see one as opposed to the ubiqutous MP40.

Also, don't suppose you'd have any info as to whether it operated better in cold temps and rough conditions of the eastern front?

Morlar wrote: »

I believe it is, though I have no idea if it performed better in cold conditions. I believe it is shown in one other photo (in a weapons stack at Wolchow) but it appears also to be autumn now winter.

It wouldn't be unusual as it was the standard issue for police forces. Even the early Propaganda postcard showed this very well:

Morlar

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

however there is some information linking the 102 with the liquidisation of ghetto in Kremenets.
page 352 of 'Holocaust: The Nazi Persecution and Murder of the Jews' By Peter Longerich.
I think the reference to kremenecs is actually meant to be kremenets, depends on launguage I suppose. There is a similar named region in slovakia and Ukraine.

The 102 were not in those places, so this book is incorrect. They were in Leningrad at this time, I believe Longerich is the only author to make this assertion and he is wrong. If his source is footnoted I would be interested to find out what he based this on.

jonniebgood1

Morlar wrote: »

The 102 were not in those places, so this book is incorrect. They were in Leningrad at this time, I believe Longerich is the only author to make this assertion and he is wrong. If his source is footnoted I would be interested to find out what he based this on.

We have already clarified this earlier in the thread, you may have missed it. It is incorrect to say as you do above that Longerich is 'wrong', as he was referring to a different 102 battalion.
In actual fact the 102 battalion refered to by Longerich was formed from Ukrainian forced labourers and volunteers from Kremianets area. They were initially assigned by the SS as Police units (hence his reference to 'police battalion 102' which confused matters) to protect local military sites and stores from partisans in the Ukraine. They were later brought to France to fight against the western allies and they revolted against the Germans while in France in 1944. http://forum.ottawa-litopys.org/france/sorobey.htm
Hope that clears this up.

Morlar

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

We have already clarified this earlier in the thread, you may have missed it. It is incorrect to say as you do above that Longerich is 'wrong', as he was referring to a different 102 battalion.

It’s incorrect to say he is wrong, it’s just that he just meant something different to what he said ?

No you did not clarify the discrepancy, and I have not missed anything. He is simply wrong and you did not address the error. He is wrong about that and that is not a good sign.

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

In actual fact the 102 battalion refered to by Longerich

There is no '102 battalion referred to by longerich', he referred distinctly to :

"In August, in the District Commissariat of Kremenec (Kreminanec), members of the KdS out-station, with the help of the District Commissariat, the Gendarmerie, Ukranian volunteers and the police battalion 102 murdered the Jews still living in the ghettos."

'Police Battalion 102' is not a loose, interchangeable generic sort of term that you can apply to any unit you choose to apply it to. It is the specific unit designation of this specific Police Battalion.

So this is a direct allegation against the PolBtl 102, also known as ResPolBtl 102 raised in Hamburg on which he is incorrect.

They (the Police Battalion 102) were not in the location he said they were in doing what he said they were doing at the time he said they were doing it. They were on the front lines combat duty at Leningrad at that time. The author you quote is wrong. That completely undermines his validity in my view.

jonniebgood1

Morlar wrote: »

It’s incorrect to say he is wrong, it’s just that he just meant something different to what he said ?

No you did not clarify the discrepancy, and I have not missed anything. He is simply wrong and you did not address the error. He is wrong about that and that is not a good sign.



There is no '102 battalion referred to by longerich', he referred distinctly to :

"In August, in the District Commissariat of Kremenec (Kreminanec), members of the KdS out-station, with the help of the District Commissariat, the Gendarmerie, Ukranian volunteers and the police battalion 102 murdered the Jews still living in the ghettos."

'Police Battalion 102' is not a loose, interchangeable generic sort of term that you can apply to any unit you choose to apply it to. It is the specific unit designation of this specific Police Battalion.

So this is a direct allegation against the PolBtl 102, also known as ResPolBtl 102 raised in Hamburg on which he is incorrect.

They (the Police Battalion 102) were not in the location he said they were in doing what he said they were doing at the time he said they were doing it. They were on the front lines combat duty at Leningrad at that time. The author you quote is wrong. That completely undermines his validity in my view.

If you bothered looking at the link I posted just before i said "Hope that clears this up", you would seen why he correctly refered to a police battalion 102. Perhaps you should check the link before you get stroppy.

I'll hold your hand to help you see the points OK. From Link:

The two battalions had their genesis in July 1942 in the German-occupied Ukraine. The first was formed in Kremianets, Ternopil Oblast, as the 102nd Battalion; the second was created in Kiev as the 118th. Both battalions were initially recruited by the SS to serve as police auxiliary units protecting military and transportation sites from Soviet partisans.

Thus it is correct to refer to police battalion 102 in this case.

Morlar

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

If you bothered looking at the link I posted just before i said "Hope that clears this up", you would seen why he correctly refered to a police battalion 102. Perhaps you should check the link before you get stroppy.

I'll hold your hand to help you see the points OK. From Link:

Thus it is correct to refer to police battalion 102 in this case.

This thread is about the photo album of a man from the Reserve Polizei Battalion 102.

You replied to it with a quote from a book which you said linked them to the killing of jews in the ghettos of Kremenec.

Except they were fighting on the front lines at the time.

So you are wrong. That link is to an article written by an amateur historian and genealogist. In parts he also does not provide correct military unit designations (though I had already known which unit this allegation refers to having discussed this with a credible author and researcher into the Polizei).

The author of your book is wrong, the designation 'Reserve Polizei Battalion 102' and 'Police Battalion 102' are not generic interchangeable terms you can apply to any unit with a '102' in the title. That is just not the way it works. The author is simply wrong to place this unit in that location at that time. Your claim that he meant 'some other' unit holds no water, he meant this specific unit other wise he would not have named them directly.

He thought it was this unit when in fact it was not. I would refer you to the links earlier in the thread outlining where the Police Battalion 102 were raised and fought :

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Zusatz/SS/Ordnungspolizei-R.htm
http://www1.uni-hamburg.de/rz3a035//police101.html
http://www.ordnungspolizei.org/

jonniebgood1

Morlar wrote: »

This thread is about the photo album of a man from the Reserve Polizei Battalion 102.

You replied to it with a quote from a book which you said linked them to the killing of jews in the ghettos of Kremenec.

Except they were fighting on the front lines at the time.

So you are wrong. That link is to an article written by an amateur historian and genealogist. In parts he also does not provide correct military unit designations (though I had already known which unit this allegation refers to having discussed this with a credible author and researcher into the Polizei).

The author of your book is wrong, the designation 'Reserve Polizei Battalion 102' and 'Police Battalion 102' are not generic interchangeable terms you can apply to any unit with a '102' in the title. That is just not the way it works. The author is simply wrong to place this unit in that location at that time. Your claim that he meant 'some other' unit holds no water, he meant this specific unit other wise he would not have named them directly.

He thought it was this unit when in fact it was not. I would refer you to the links earlier in the thread outlining where the Police Battalion 102 were raised and fought :

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Zusatz/SS/Ordnungspolizei-R.htm
http://www1.uni-hamburg.de/rz3a035//police101.html
http://www.ordnungspolizei.org/

You are just being silly now.

The phrase/ term used in the book was 'police battalion 102'. This is not a patented type name. For example there is a 102nd police battalion of the New York National Guard.

The mistake I made was assuming that the 102 quoted in the book was the same as the one that you posted pictures of (I think I was'nt the only person to make that assumption). We have now cleared up what the author was refering to so that should be end of any argument.

Morlar

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

You are just being silly now.

The phrase/ term used in the book was 'police battalion 102'. This is not a patented type name. For example there is a 102nd police battalion of the New York National Guard.

The mistake I made was assuming that the 102 quoted in the book was the same as the one that you posted pictures of (I think I was'nt the only person to make that assumption). We have now cleared up what the author was refering to so that should be end of any argument.

You did make a mistake, however it was directly and understandably caused by the Authors (longerich) mistake which is what is being discussed here.

The tone of some responses on this thread are starting to remind me of the TV show 'Arrested Development' where a character called 'Buster' enlists in the US Army to go and fight in Iraq. Whenever he mentions his military life he exclusively refers to it as 'Army', not 'The Army', just 'Army. As in 'You know it's not like this in Army', or 'Mother, I am leaving, I am going to go to Army'. That character sees anything military as being part of some incomprehensible entity where divisions, regiments, kompanies/platoons any kind of specific unit or even branch designation is beyond him because to him it's all just 'Army'.

Most people know the military history of WW2 does not work that way. To have an author publish a book which refers to a well known specific unit designation 'Police Battalion 102' as being in one location, at a specific time, committing a specific warcrime, and be completely wrong is not entirely surprising. It is fortunate that it was not picked up by other authors, repeated and re-referenced in other books so as to pass in to history as the truth. Fortunately this seems to be the only book making this claim, and as it is not the central claim in his book it is apparently uncontested. It is still an error on his part which should be acknowledged. To instead claim that he was not 'wrong' but that somehow at the same time as being not wrong he meant a different '102' (as if 'Police Battalion 102' is an interchangeable designation and leave it at that) is not sufficient. For example, the 23rd Panzer division is not the same thing as the 23rd Infantry Regiment, nor is it the same as the 23rd Kompanie from Infantry Regiment 4, in ID 17. You can't just say 'the germnan 23rd' or the '23rd from the Ostfront', you have to specify which 23rd of in this case which 102nd. In this case the Author DID specify which designation - the Police Battalion 102. He is wrong in claiming they had an involvement with whatever happened in Kremenec. There was a ukranische-Schuma 102, which may have been in Kremenec, however they were raised in a different decade, in a different country and were composed of Ukranians not Germans, they were not the same unit and you simply can not refer to them as Police Battalion 102, as Police Battalion 102 is a specific German Ordnungspolizei battalion.

Here are a few references which illustrate the specific nature of the unit designation Pol-Btl-102 or Res-Pol-Btl-102 :

http://forum-der-wehrmacht.de/thread.php?threadid=18186&hilight=Polizeibataillon

http://www1.uni-hamburg.de/rz3a035//police101.html

http://www.forum-der-wehrmacht.de/thread.php?threadid=20468&sid=e76bd3a5343733af28b838f04740e48f

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Zusatz/SS/Ordnungspolizei-R.htm

jonniebgood1

Morlar wrote: »

You did make a mistake, however it was directly and understandably caused by the Authors (longerich) mistake which is what is being discussed here.

Here are a few references which illustrate the specific nature of the unit designation Pol-Btl-102 or Res-Pol-Btl-102 :

http://forum-der-wehrmacht.de/thread.php?threadid=18186&hilight=Polizeibataillon

http://www1.uni-hamburg.de/rz3a035//police101.html

http://www.forum-der-wehrmacht.de/thread.php?threadid=20468&sid=e76bd3a5343733af28b838f04740e48f

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Zusatz/SS/Ordnungspolizei-R.htm

Here is another reference to a 'police battalion 102'
http://forum.ottawa-litopys.org/france/sorobey.htm

and another

http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Heraldry/ArmyDUISSICOA/ArmyHeraldryUnit.aspx?u=6730

Get over it.

Morlar

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Here is another reference to a 'police battalion 102'
http://forum.ottawa-litopys.org/france/sorobey.htm

and another

http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/Heraldry/ArmyDUISSICOA/ArmyHeraldryUnit.aspx?u=6730

Get over it.

This first one is a repeat of the one you already mentioned. From an amateur historian and genealogist who most likely based this error on the original error in Longerich's book.

As mentioned it is fortunate that other authors have not repeated it - this does not mean it has not been repeated on the internet. Throughout the course of this essay the author (our amateur historian/genealogist) veers from using what I would describe as semi-correct terminology to simply repeating longerich's error.

The 2nd link is not related to the German Polizei, German military, Eastern Front or WW2. It's irrelevant in the context of this forum nevermind thread.

Which brings us back to the 'Buster Go Army' post above - none of whose central points you have acknowledged (those around the author's clear mistake).

It might interest you to know that one (credible, published and peer-reviewed) Polizei researcher offered a possible explanation for Longerich's error, he also referred to him as a 'Political historian' rather than a military one this was a phrase I was not familiar with and am still trying to fully understand. Regardless of his category of historian he is one who makes mistake as regards specific unit designations.

jonniebgood1

Morlar wrote: »

.......
Longerich's error,.....
Regardless of his category of historian he is one who makes mistake as regards specific unit designations.

Peter Longerich reviews:

"A milestone in holocaust scholarship."--Christopher Browning, author of Origins of the Final Solution

"Superb, perhaps the best overview there is." --Mark Roseman, author of The Villa, the Lake, the Meeting

"A formidable work of scholarship...the most authoritative account of the Holocaust that we have."--Jeremy Noakes, editor of Nazism 1919-1945. Vol 4 The German Home Front in World War II

"Skeptics who maintain that there is little left of value to learn about the Holocaust should read this superb and provocative work originally published in German in 1998. Now revised and published in English for the first time, it offers relatively new data as well as a convincing thesis regarding the genesis and execution of systematic genocide. Longerich rejects the assertions of so-called 'structuralists' who view the 'Final Solution' as a byproduct of war, which implies that anti-Jewish policies simply "got out of control" under wartime stress. Rather, extermination of Jews was the logical result of the virulent race hatred of the Nazis. This is a vital addition to the field of Holocaust studies."--Booklist Starred Review

http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/HistoryWorld/European/?view=usa&ci=9780192804365

I believe he also appeared as a witness in the Irving v Lipstadt trial.

jonniebgood1

Morlar wrote: »

The 2nd link is not related to the German Polizei, German military, Eastern Front or WW2. It's irrelevant in the context of this forum nevermind thread.
.

the 2nd link was to show you it was not a unique name. The point being that not every reference to 'police battalion 102' is to the battalion whose photos you have. Thus it is entirely relevent when you propose that a reference to 'police battalion 102' can only be to 1 unit.

This is childish at this stage so I will withdraw from this nitpicking argument (we should both refrain from this in my opinion as it can ruin a thread)

citizen_p

nice album, especislly the front shots

Morlar

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Peter Longerich reviews:

http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/HistoryWorld/European/?view=usa&ci=9780192804365

I believe he also appeared as a witness in the Irving v Lipstadt trial.

I am aware of who longerich is (and also that threads can be ruined by people choosing to deny an error in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary). There are a few possibilities around why this error appears in his book.

One possibility (let's call it Option 1) is that he was not aware that 'Police Battalion 102' was a specific unit designation:

If he thought that any polizei or SS Polizei or police-related battalion bearing the number '102' could be referred to as 'Police Battalion 102'.

I don't consider that this is a credible proposition. He is a holocaust historian and so would reasonably be expected to know about Polizei Battalion designations. Primarily consider that :



Christopher Brownings groundbreaking book

'Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland'

had been published in 1992 and had a dramatic effect on the world of ww2 & related genocide studies. There is no equivocation, vagueness or grey area in that book about the specific nature of the designation 'Police Battalion 10x'. In fact a central point of that book is that this unit raised in Hamburg and tracked throughout it's progress during the war as a single cohesive, logical, distinct unit and of how the men within this unit evolved and were personally affected by what they were exposed to and what they were ordered to do and the surrounding circumstances. So this notion that longerich somehow was not aware that Police Battalion 102 referred to a specific Ordnungspolizei unit called 'Police Battalion 102' is not credible in my view.

One other possiblilty (let's call it Option 2) is that he thought that Police Battalion 102 were in that area doing the things he said they were doing at the time he said they were doing it. As his reference is not footnoted it is not possible to know what this claim would be based on. However it is incorrect.

There is one other credible possibility (call it Option 3 & I'd put this one at 55/45 likely between this one and Option 2) which has been put forward but I am not sure that one is worthy of discussion when at this point you still refuse to even acknowledge that the author's work contains this error to begin with. It would be of no use to you to go from step A to step C bypassing step B :

a) posting about the erroneous reference in Longerich book

b) acknowledging the author's work contained this error.

d) having the error and circumstances plausibly explained.