Israeli military cleared over flotilla raid

Gunsfortoys

An Israeli inquiry has cleared the government and military of wrongdoing in the bloody seizure of a Turkish aid ship that tried to breach the Gaza blockade, saying passengers were to blame for the violence.
The Turkel Commission, whose report will form the core of Israel's submission to a UN inquiry into the 31 May incident, endorsed the sea closure but urged Israeli reviews of how to focus sanctions on Gaza's Hamas rulers and spare its civilians.
'By clearly resisting capture, the Mavi Marmara had become a military objective,' the commission said in a 245-page report, referring to a converted cruise ship which Israeli marines boarded on the high seas after it ignored orders to turn back.
Nine pro-Palestinian Turks were killed in the incident.
The commission accused the IHH, a Turkish Islamist charity that owned the Mavi Marmara, 'of planned and extremely violent' resistance which was 'directly connected to the ongoing international armed conflict between Israel and Hamas'.
In September, three international experts appointed by the UN Human Rights Council to investigate the attack said it had been unlawful and resulted in violations of human rights and international humanitarian law.
Israel said the investigators' mandate was biased.
UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon set up his own inquiry into the incident, which is still in progress.
In its report, the Israeli commission said the Gaza blockade was justified given the threat of gun-running to Hamas and Israel's efforts to maintain humanitarian supplies to ordinary Palestinians there.
Turkey said it was 'appalled and dismayed' at the findings by the inquiry.

No surprises there, I think it is a disgrace and while I certainly don't support Hamas laws and practices, there is clearly something very wrong about this.

TeddyTedson

I only read the bit in bold and was surprised myself alright.

aDeener

Gunsfortoys wrote: »

No surprises there, I think it is a disgrace and while I certainly don't support Hamas laws and practices, there is clearly something very wrong about this.

shower of cunts

orourkeda

Here we go. Let the fireworks commence

wes

The accused exonerating themselves. Hardly surprising at all, and tbh honest utterly pointless. No one will be convinced by this at all. Those who support Israel right or wrong would have considered Israel innocent already, and those who don't won't be convinced by Israel exonerating themselves.

RMD

Ah sure, the thought of the Israelis ever admitting fault is just a dream. Nothing but a pack of bullies.

Wolfe Tone

Whitewash, disgraceful but predictable.

Dudess

You have to back IDF atrocities if you want to sock it to the hippies though - them's the rules.
Oh and criticism of the IDF is anti-semitism.

Mrmoe

In other news, turkeys have not voted for Christmas.

squod

Commence re-regging and shit stirring in 10, 9, 8

Metallergy

don't buy the hass avocados

Gunsfortoys

Dudess wrote: »

You have to back IDF atrocities if you want to sock it to the hippies though - them's the rules.
Oh and criticism of the IDF is anti-semitism.

Ignorance is bliss and all that...

murnhome

Reads like a Who's on first base? sketch.

Badgermonkey

Anyone read the report or will we just kick in with the anti Israeli sentiment automatically?

Dudess

It's not anti Israeli - it's anti bullying. The fact the bullying is being done by people from Israel is immaterial to me.

Badgermonkey

wes wrote: »

Those who support Israel right or wrong would have considered Israel innocent already, and those who don't won't be convinced by Israel exonerating themselves.

Nor would they be convinced were Israel independently exonerated.

Dudess

Ghandee wrote: »

The Israelites.

A great song.

FYP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnDs5u_mFBc

Ghandee

Dudess wrote: »

It's not anti Israeli - it's anti bullying. The fact the bullying is being done by people from Israel is immaterial to me.

The Israelites.

A great bunch of (circumcised) tossers lads. :rolleyes:

wes

Badgermonkey wrote: »

Nor would they be convinced were Israel independently exonerated.

People would accept it, I reckon.

The fact remains, that any report from the accused exonerating themselves is simply worthless, and this would apply to any other group as well. To some how suggest that this report should be taken seriously is a bad joke.

Monty Burnz

Badgermonkey wrote: »

Anyone read the report or will we just kick in with the anti Israeli sentiment automatically?

You read it, we've already made a start on the anti-Israeli stuff.

Monty Burnz

Funny thing is, there is a genuine large minority of humanitarian, fair-minded Israelis who resist this type of thing which I think can often be forgotten. They are shouted down by those on the right unfortunately.

Badgermonkey

wes wrote: »

To some how suggest that this report should be taken seriously is a bad joke.

I didn't suggest it should be taken seriously.

At an official level, Israel has proved itself undoubtedly inept at any sort of meaningful reflection on its treatment of the Palestinian population.

The UN report should certainly provide an examination of the events of last may with an authority the Israeli Commission cannot possibly possess.

KeithAFC

Always knew Israel was in the right in this story. Glad thats that sorted.

marcsignal

this shit out there started 1 week after I was born, and it's still going on. It's insane to think, that with every memory I have about my whole life, that, in the background, and simultaneously, this shit has been going on. junior school, senior school, in all the pubs, and all the gigs i've ever been to, all the Christmases and new years i've ever had, all the places i've ever been, and people i've ever met, this shit has been going on....


i've heard all the excuses, and i'm not interested anymore, it just has to stop...

Wolfe Tone

KeithAFC wrote: »

Always knew Israel was in the right in this story. Glad thats that sorted.

Ah Keith.......

3/10


Your sh!t stirring attempts usually are a wee bit more imaginative.

KeithAFC

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Ah Keith.......

3/10


Your sh!t stirring attempts usually are a wee bit more imaginative.

But the article says they were in the right.

Son Of A Vidic

Israel clears itself of any wrongdoing.........that's a shocker!

Manic Moran

Badgermonkey wrote: »

Anyone read the report or will we just kick in with the anti Israeli sentiment automatically?

I've not found it yet, but I'm looking. Not so much because I accept the conclusion, but it would be nice to read the other side.

Like most every other report from the middle east, one side refused to speak to the investigators. As a result, the only people the Israeli investigators only spoke with people who honestly believed their acts were legal. There's no wonder the report concluded the same thing. What intrigues me is the fact that they've split the report up, with another volume due in a few months.

NTM

Mahatma coat

Thread title is a bit misleading

It should read

Israel gives Finger to Common decency
Instead Choses to Perpetuates Lie

Lumen

I have no particular axe to grind, but can someone link to information which describes the incident from something approaching an objective perspective?

I saw some footage in which people on the ship were hitting Israeli soldiers with sticks, which seemed a bit retarded.

Ignoring instructions from a military blockade also seems like asking for trouble, particularly when that military is not known for it's proportional responses.

Mahatma coat

Heres what Gets me tho
why were the Civillians on board the Ship Retarded for trying yo repel an illegal boarding by People intent on killing them??

What would you have done??

Lumen

Mahatma coat wrote: »

why were the Civillians on board the Ship Retarded for trying yo repel an illegal boarding by People intent on killing them??

Regardless of intent, actual or perceived, hitting an armed soldier with a stick is more likely to get you killed than not doing so. Particularly when that soldier is Israeli.

That's just plain common sense.

Or maybe you think your stick fighting skills are sufficient to win against someone armed with guns, knives and Krav Maga training?

Snakeblood

Badgermonkey wrote: »

Nor would they be convinced were Israel independently exonerated.

Well, I would.

FlutterinBantam

Gunsfortoys wrote: »

No surprises there, I think it is a disgrace and while I certainly don't support Hamas laws and practices, there is clearly something very wrong about this.

Absolutely no surprise, total media spin on the whole issue, vested interests and left wingers tried to muddy the waters but as always the truth will emerge from the propaganda.

these people might think again before pulling a stunt like that in that area.

wes

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Absolutely no surprise, total media spin on the whole issue, vested interests and left wingers tried to muddy the waters but as always the truth will emerge from the propaganda.

these people might think again before pulling a stunt like that in that area.

Man, the whole left wingers etc stuff is getting old.

Also, to claim that this some how reveals some kind of truth, is a joke. Sure, why not have Hamas investigate the incident and then ask people to take there investigation seriously? As I said earlier, the only people who will take this seriously are the people who already support Israel. The report is essentially flawed due to the accused investigating itself.

Lumen

wes wrote: »

The report is essentially flawed due to the accused investigating itself.

I could accuse you of bias due to your sig. Does that make your opinion worthless?

I'd say this has as much value as, say for example, a financial regulator sitting on a bank committee, regulating that bank

squod

squod wrote: »

Commence re-regging and shit stirring in 10, 9, 8

Blastoff..............

Lumen wrote: »

Ignoring instructions from a military blockade also seems like asking for trouble, particularly when that military is not known for it's proportional responses.

Lumen

squod wrote: »

Blastoff..............

I'm not shít stirring. I came on this thread admitting ignorance and asking for information, and got nothing.

Sorry, I thought this was a discussion forum.

wes

Lumen wrote: »

I could accuse you of bias due to your sig. Does that make your opinion worthless?

You could accuse me of bias, and I could care less. Why anyone would have a problem with saving the people of Gaza from an inhuman blockade is beyond me, and if that makes me biased, then I am guilty as charged. If someone has issue with that position, it says more about them than me.

Of course, we aren't talking about bias, we are talking about the accused (Israel) declaring itself innocent. That is nonsense, and trying to make this about other posters is a typically bankrupt tactic we often see on these threads.

Lumen

wes wrote: »

Of course, we aren't talking about bias, we are talking about the accused (Israel) declaring itself innocent. That is nonsense, and trying to make this about other posters is a typically bankrupt tactic we often see on these threads.

I'm not trying to make this about you. It was a simple example illustrating that bias is not a sufficient reason to entirely discount a viewpoint.

In the absence of any actual discussion, I'm out.

wes

Lumen wrote: »

I'm not trying to make this about you. It was a simple example illustrating that bias is not a sufficient reason to entirely discount a viewpoint.

Oh please, you made it about me, by making claims about my bias, and as I pointed out, this goes beyond bias, and we are not talking about a view point here, but rather Israel declaring themselves innocent, based on there own investigation. Basically, the accused party investigating themselves and saying there innocent on that basis, if you can't see the problem with that, then there really is no way to have a reasonable discussion.

Lumen wrote: »

In the absence of any actual discussion, I'm out.

Considering that you didn't engage with any such discussion on the first place....

Lumen

wes wrote: »

Considering that you didn't engage with any such discussion on the first place....

I entered this thread with this...

Lumen wrote: »

I have no particular axe to grind, but can someone link to information which describes the incident from something approaching an objective perspective?

It was a genuine question. I got nothing in response except for accusations of trolling.

Gunsfortoys

Lumen wrote: »

I entered this thread with this...



It was a genuine question. I got nothing in response except for accusations of trolling.

Have you even read the quoted article?

In September, three international experts appointed by the UN Human Rights Council to investigate the attack said it had been unlawful and resulted in violations of human rights and international humanitarian law.

How the hell can you call three international experts biased?

jackiebaron

Badgermonkey wrote: »

Anyone read the report or will we just kick in with the anti Israeli sentiment automatically?

What's anti-Israeli about criticising criminals investigating themselves.
It's akin to a redneck sheriff and his deputies "investigating" reports of Klan violence against blacks in Mississippi and him coming back saying "No, sireee! Nothing strange happening here. Just a quiet little community. But if anything does turn up, we'll be sure and let you know".

Farcical.

Lumen

Gunsfortoys wrote: »

Have you even read the quoted article?

How the hell can you call three international experts biased?

Yes, I read the article.

Did those experts make a formal report? Do you have a link to it?

Gunsfortoys

Lumen wrote: »

Yes, I read the article.

Did those experts make a formal report? Do you have a link to it?

Jesus ever hear of google? The UN report

Lumen

Gunsfortoys wrote: »

Jesus ever hear of google? The UN report

The two things that really stand out for me are:

"At this point between 10 and 20 passengers were located in the central area of the top deck...it has concluded that live ammunition was used from the helicopter onto the top deck prior to the descent of the soldiers"

...and:

"A number of the passengers on the top deck fought with the soldiers using their fists, sticks, metal rods and knives. At least one of the soldiers was stabbed with a knife or other sharp object."

They're all completely nuts. Which is in no way an attempt to equalise the blame, or weigh up one set of stupidity against the other. Most of the passengers were not fighting and apparently had no intention of doing so, including some of those who died.

As I said, I have no axe to grind.

Thanks for the link.

fedor.2.

KeithAFC wrote: »

Always knew Israel was in the right in this story. Glad thats that sorted.

I agree. Thank God its all been cleared up now.

prinz

Israel finds for itself....shocker. I am sure if you asked the other groups involved they would come out of it whiter than white too. Good to see the inquiry seemingly calling for a review of the blockading tactics which I don't think has been mentioned yet on the thread.

aDeener

KeithAFC wrote: »

But the article says they were in the right.

pathetic. what age are you?