Follow the money

tenchi-fan

When I worked in Ireland, I noticed I had very little free time.

Monday to Friday I did a 7.5 hour day of work. A mandatory 1 hour for lunch. 3 hours commute - not by choice, but necessity. I was lucky to get home by 7pm. I'd pick up some groceries for a few quid from the supermarket on the way home and my central heating was timed to coincide with my arrival home.

I didn't earn much money but I got hit with a fair bit of income tax, motor tax, private health insurance.. Lots of bills that all add up.

I hadn't time to spend money, and when I had time I'd remember how hard it was to earn the money and I'd think twice about spending it. I just didn't earn a salary that would make me wealthy.

So I didn't do much for the economy. I packed a lunch rather than spent an hour's wages in a cafe or food court. I read the news online instead of buying a newspaper for the racing section to spend the afternoon in the bookies. I have a couple of suits for work so I tend not to spend a few days wages on new hoodies and designer gear every week. And during the few warm days last summer when some people spent the summer sipping bulmers in the beergarden of their local pub, I was home just in time to grab a bottle from the fridge and try to unwind after a long day.

So I salute the people who live on welfare. They drive the economy by spending the money the employed don't get a chance to spend. Their act of spending every cent they collect in the post office without fail before their next collection date is nothing short of selfless. They create the employment, leaving the rest of us to get on with our jobs. And when they tell me, "you're lucky to have a job", I know a truer word was never spoken. Because I am proud to have served them.


^^ That's just a little thought I wrote. What I'm getting at is the reason for high welfare rates is to keep money in the economy. Higher taxes combined with high mortgage rates and high inflation will make discretionary income a thing of the past for many employees and the self employed. It seems we're at the stage where only the (often financially unaware) unemployed can be relied to spend almost their entire allowance in retail stores in their local town every week.

gonedrinking

But if there were fewer unemployed, you would be taxed less, have more disposable income and would likely spend more. You might even go crazy and buy your lunch in town instead of the packed lunch.

Sarn

Interesting observations. The thing is, the money that is spent by people on welfare is used to pay for the basics, more or less. The employed also spend the equivalent amount, as we all have the same bills and basic requirements.

It is the employed who have the ability to boost local industry above the bare minimum through discretionary spending. Whether or not they have the time or inclination is another matter.

liammur

Sarn wrote: »

Interesting observations. The thing is, the money that is spent by people on welfare is used to pay for the basics, more or less. The employed also spend the equivalent amount, as we all have the same bills and basic requirements.

It is the employed who have the ability to boost local industry above the bare minimum through discretionary spending. Whether or not they have the time or inclination is another matter.

Correct. There is a lot of bull**** about the dole. Yes it is high by N Irl standards, but we won't see anyone on the dole buying much other than the basics.

Sikie

Can say I understand the feeling work taking up 12-13 per day between travel and work and then home is barely in the door and out. Then after it all between extra tax, mortgage and fuel there is nothing left anymore for discretionary spend.

Dannyboy83

Higher social welfare rates + Higher public servants wages= Higher taxation
Wasteful spending + inefficient state sector = Higher taxation

I've also heard this argument about public sector employees.
The idea is that because they have secure employment and higher salaries, they will keep the domestic economy afloat by spending, compared to private sector employees who will save more/spend less due to fear.

That ignores the fact that
A) The money has to come from somewhere - i.e. Taxation
The private sector would spend money if they weren't terrified of further tax increases not to mind losing their jobs.

The idea that you can simply remove money from people who are too scared to spend it simply leads to a huge emigration rate - noticed you said in your op:

When I worked in Ireland

car

Sikie wrote: »

Can say I understand the feeling work taking up 12-13 per day between travel and work and then home is barely in the door and out. Then after it all between extra tax, mortgage and fuel there is nothing left anymore for discretionary spend.

I also know how u feel, I'm in the same boat, 4 hours commutting to and from work, bring my lunch to work each day now, as I cant afford to eat out, I'd gladly buy lunch out if I could afford it, but my office has now moved last year for it's 3rd time in the past few years, to the other side of Dublin. If I had to take public transport, it would cost me even more to go to work, as well as more time commutting to work.

I don't mind doing it in the winter, but as u said in the Summer when u hear of ur fellow friends spending time in the beer garden or after coming back from a round of golf, you are bound to get pissed off or I went for a lovely walk or I was at the beach today... u wonder why u bother working, when some of them seem to have better lives than u do, and they dont have the 5am starts that I have, to beat the traffic!

tenchi-fan

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

The idea that you can simply remove money from people who are too scared to spend it simply leads to a huge emigration rate - noticed you said in your op:
When I worked in Ireland

You noticed correct, I'm working in Toronto on my the U35 visa. I'm going to apply for the extension today as it's hard getting good jobs with a visa that expires in less than a year.

I wasn't on terrible wages in Dublin, but the commute was horrible, management had hinted we should work longer hours (the team fell from 6 people to 4) and with the impending budget i just didn't see the point in sticking around.. sounded like too much of a struggle! People were saying inflation was falling, which might be true for restaurants, hotels and rent, but fuel prices, electricity, healthcare, insurance, tax and interest rates were all going up! Crazy stuff.

later12

tenchi-fan wrote: »

So I salute the people who live on welfare. They drive the economy by spending the money the employed don't get a chance to spend. Their act of spending every cent they collect in the post office without fail before their next collection date is nothing short of selfless.

It's probably not selfless so much an necessary. Personally, I'm not rich, but I couldn't live on 25 euro per day every day. It's not living, it's surviving.

In any case I like your sentiment, but you have to remember that the money spent on welfare is borrowed money, and the cost of that borrowing is itself expensive. Welfare money might go straight back into the economy, but it's also soaking up a lot of wealth just to pay for it in the first place.

Sesshoumaru

@tenchi-fan

How long ago was it when you last worked in Ireland? I'm just curious why you had such a long commute? Were you renting? If you were renting surely you could have got some place closer? I have 2 kids and I've still managed to move several times in the last few years in order to get better accommodation at cheaper rates.

Although in the last move I have to admit, I moved further away, but that's not such a big deal any more since I commute by motorcycle now. On the few occasions I need to take public transport, I find it an extremely soul destroying experience, even the car is soul destroying... nothing worse than sitting still for so long.

Spudmonkey

later10 wrote: »

In any case I like your sentiment, but you have to remember that the money spent on welfare is borrowed money, and the cost of that borrowing is itself expensive. Welfare money might go straight back into the economy, but it's also soaking up a lot of wealth just to pay for it in the first place.

To be honest the statement that money spent on welfare is money spent in the economy doesn't hold much water when all that money has to be borrowed in the first place!!

tenchi-fan

Sesshoumaru, I left Ireland at the start of November.

I understand what you are saying, could I not move closer to work. The problem is if I was going to relocate, I would prefer to relocate to a country with better opportunities than to relocate to Dublin.

Returning to Dublin is always an option. However, so is London.

PARKHEAD67

liammur wrote: »

Correct. There is a lot of bull**** about the dole. Yes it is high by N Irl standards, but we won't see anyone on the dole buying much other than the basics.

Ha Ha.Except shiny 09to11 passats and nice new caravans.Get real.Every loser drug dealer is a dole claimant.FFS.Only in Ireland!!And as for the poor aul travelling community.God bless em all.Jesus wept.:mad:

Sesshoumaru

tenchi-fan wrote: »

Sesshoumaru, I left Ireland at the start of November.

I understand what you are saying, could I not move closer to work. The problem is if I was going to relocate, I would prefer to relocate to a country with better opportunities than to relocate to Dublin.

Returning to Dublin is always an option. However, so is London.

Perfectly understandable! I was just curious as you seemed fairly mobile, you said you had moved to Toronto after all (= Several of my friends have moved overseas and I'd consider it myself if my job sucked.

Sesshoumaru

liammur wrote: »

Correct. There is a lot of bull**** about the dole. Yes it is high by N Irl standards, but we won't see anyone on the dole buying much other than the basics.

This is just my own personal experience, I wouldn't even dream of suggesting most on the dole are like this. But I recall soon after finishing secondary school, I took a job working in Xtra Vision for 1 year. I wanted to take a small break before going on to 3rd level. Anyways I was going for a walk down by the river Liffey near where I live with my gf, when I bumped into some people who had been in the same year as me in school. They were enjoying the summer sunshine and drinking alcohol by the river. They recognised me and asked me what I was doing etc, when I told them I was working they actually laughed at me. They told me they were getting "free money" on the dole and why would anyone bother working.

Any friends I know on the dole currently are working hard to find jobs and are not living in luxury. But I have to say they aren't struggling either.

raymann

tenchi-fan wrote: »

When I worked in Ireland, I noticed I had very little free time.

Monday to Friday I did a 7.5 hour day of work. A mandatory 1 hour for lunch. 3 hours commute - not by choice, but necessity. I was lucky to get home by 7pm. I'd pick up some groceries for a few quid from the supermarket on the way home and my central heating was timed to coincide with my arrival home.

I didn't earn much money but I got hit with a fair bit of income tax, motor tax, private health insurance.. Lots of bills that all add up.

I hadn't time to spend money, and when I had time I'd remember how hard it was to earn the money and I'd think twice about spending it. I just didn't earn a salary that would make me wealthy.

So I didn't do much for the economy. I packed a lunch rather than spent an hour's wages in a cafe or food court. I read the news online instead of buying a newspaper for the racing section to spend the afternoon in the bookies. I have a couple of suits for work so I tend not to spend a few days wages on new hoodies and designer gear every week. And during the few warm days last summer when some people spent the summer sipping bulmers in the beergarden of their local pub, I was home just in time to grab a bottle from the fridge and try to unwind after a long day.

So I salute the people who live on welfare. They drive the economy by spending the money the employed don't get a chance to spend. Their act of spending every cent they collect in the post office without fail before their next collection date is nothing short of selfless. They create the employment, leaving the rest of us to get on with our jobs. And when they tell me, "you're lucky to have a job", I know a truer word was never spoken. Because I am proud to have served them.


^^ That's just a little thought I wrote. What I'm getting at is the reason for high welfare rates is to keep money in the economy. Higher taxes combined with high mortgage rates and high inflation will make discretionary income a thing of the past for many employees and the self employed. It seems we're at the stage where only the (often financially unaware) unemployed can be relied to spend almost their entire allowance in retail stores in their local town every week.

everything i have read indicates that trying to recycle tax payers money back into the economy through, public sector wages or welfare, is an inefficient way to do it.

tax cuts through (paid for by reduced spending?) are a much much more efficient way of doing this.

CokaColumbo

The idea that people who don't work and don't contribute to the economy are actually the driving force behind it is absurd.
The fact is that to support the unproductive and a large government bureaucracy (as well as state-sponsored job training programmes), the productive have to have their private wealth forcibly redistributed, i.e. taxed. Every form of taxation destroys jobs (which allow the unproductive to become self-sufficient), stifles business and hinders prosperity, not the other way around.

The OP is actually a very productive member of the economy because he probably puts a large chunk of his money (that which the government has graciously permitted him to keep) in the bank. That is a very good thing because savings in banks are essential for loans which enable capital investment and the financing of sustainable growth. An economy based on production and savings is clearly better than one based on debt and consumption (try telling that to the Keynesians though!)
The means to achieving greater prosperity is to reduce government intervention in the economy. That means lower taxes, lower spending, no state guarantees for private institutions, no artificially suppressed interest rates which create artificial investment bubbles, and less regulation.

BeeDI

tenchi-fan wrote: »

When I worked in Ireland, I noticed I had very little free time.

Monday to Friday I did a 7.5 hour day of work. A mandatory 1 hour for lunch. 3 hours commute - not by choice, but necessity. I was lucky to get home by 7pm. I'd pick up some groceries for a few quid from the supermarket on the way home and my central heating was timed to coincide with my arrival home.

I didn't earn much money but I got hit with a fair bit of income tax, motor tax, private health insurance.. Lots of bills that all add up.

I hadn't time to spend money, and when I had time I'd remember how hard it was to earn the money and I'd think twice about spending it. I just didn't earn a salary that would make me wealthy.

So I didn't do much for the economy. I packed a lunch rather than spent an hour's wages in a cafe or food court. I read the news online instead of buying a newspaper for the racing section to spend the afternoon in the bookies. I have a couple of suits for work so I tend not to spend a few days wages on new hoodies and designer gear every week. And during the few warm days last summer when some people spent the summer sipping bulmers in the beergarden of their local pub, I was home just in time to grab a bottle from the fridge and try to unwind after a long day.

So I salute the people who live on welfare. They drive the economy by spending the money the employed don't get a chance to spend. Their act of spending every cent they collect in the post office without fail before their next collection date is nothing short of selfless. They create the employment, leaving the rest of us to get on with our jobs. And when they tell me, "you're lucky to have a job", I know a truer word was never spoken. Because I am proud to have served them.


^^ That's just a little thought I wrote. What I'm getting at is the reason for high welfare rates is to keep money in the economy. Higher taxes combined with high mortgage rates and high inflation will make discretionary income a thing of the past for many employees and the self employed. It seems we're at the stage where only the (often financially unaware) unemployed can be relied to spend almost their entire allowance in retail stores in their local town every week.

Great summary of where the domestic economy is right now! Sounds like it was dictated to you by David McWilliams.
The scenario you describe is also true of people who have plenty free time, and also still have plenty money / income.
They too, will not spend it to easily. No money going around, probably means, the next Dail, will find more and more direct methods, of getting theiw hands on it one way or another. Higher and higher, income taxes and levies and service charges. Simple:eek:

murphaph

CokaColumbo wrote: »

An economy based on production and savings is clearly better than one based on debt and consumption

This is the German way. Hasn't led them to far wrong. They realised their welfare was getting out of hand about 15 years ago and made moves to correct that. Ireland will have to bite that bullet too. How our welfare rates climbed so fast is breathtaking tbh. Welfare increase outstripped inflation for a good decade.

liammur

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

This is just my own personal experience, I wouldn't even dream of suggesting most on the dole are like this. But I recall soon after finishing secondary school, I took a job working in Xtra Vision for 1 year. I wanted to take a small break before going on to 3rd level. Anyways I was going for a walk down by the river Liffey near where I live with my gf, when I bumped into some people who had been in the same year as me in school. They were enjoying the summer sunshine and drinking alcohol by the river. They recognised me and asked me what I was doing etc, when I told them I was working they actually laughed at me. They told me they were getting "free money" on the dole and why would anyone bother working.

Any friends I know on the dole currently are working hard to find jobs and are not living in luxury. But I have to say they aren't struggling either.

I would say this is a very accurate summation. However, I wouldn't advise anyone to be planning a life on the dole, the best days on that are over too.