prison for non payment of debt.

Builderfromhell

I was wondering is there any way of finding out how many people are actually imprisoned for non payment of debt. That is to say not complying with a court order to pay a debt.

Discussed this matter with some people today and some say people who refuse or can't comply with a court order to pay a debt are definetly commited for the full term while others, including a solicitor, said they are often just logged into prison and then released.

smcgiff

Not 100% sure, but my understanding is that only those that are judged able to pay and don't (for whatever reason) that are sent to prison.

detective

the only way to find out how many is to call your local td who can table the question to the minister for justice. from my experience they are generally just brought to prison and released immediately. most criminals who receive fines in lieu of sentences don't pay the fines because they know this so the only loser is irish society. they have to change the system in this regard.

johnnyskeleton

detective wrote: »

the only way to find out how many is to call your local td who can table the question to the minister for justice. from my experience they are generally just brought to prison and released immediately. most criminals who receive fines in lieu of sentences don't pay the fines because they know this so the only loser is irish society. they have to change the system in this regard.

That's for fines, but I think the scenario is a bit different when it comes to imprisonment for failure to comply with an installment order under the enforcement of court orders act. I think, but am not sure, that when someone is imprisoned under that act, the prisons are less likely to let them out because the debt is a private one rather than a public debt and they feel that to release the person early would be seen as depriving the party of their lawful remedy.

When it comes to pure contempt of court, I don't think the prisons even have authority to release a person because they have to purge their contempt first.

Our man in Havana

Under the 2009 act it is now very difficult to imprison debtors.

Once a debtor can show they can't pay they cannot be imprisoned. Also they are entitled to free legal aid which levels the playing field.

johnnyskeleton

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Under the 2009 act it is now very difficult to imprison debtors.

Once a debtor can show they can't pay they cannot be imprisoned. Also they are entitled to free legal aid which levels the playing field.

It still hasn't remedied one of the main failures of the old system - there is no personal service of the summons and there is no requirement to have the person present in court before a warrant may issue.

Our man in Havana

http://www.attorneygeneral.ie/eAct/2009/a2109.pdf

(e) be served on the debtor by personal
service, unless the judge of the District
Court directs otherwise.

(4) A debtor arrested under subsection (3)(a)
shall be brought as soon as practicable before the
District Court.

johnnyskeleton

Our man in Havana wrote: »

http://www.attorneygeneral.ie/eAct/2009/a2109.pdf

Thanks for that. Don't know how I didn't spot that, perhaps I had read the bill and not the final act.

Tom Young

Yes, I think the McCann case was at least one of the reasons for the changes here.

Edit: http://www.courts.ie/judgments.nsf/6681dee4565ecf2c80256e7e0052005b/c70d9db2f22e09e9802575fc003c52a4?OpenDocument&Highlight=0,McCann

Builderfromhell

It seems the situation is not so clear and it would be interesting to hear how people are dealt with in the next year or two.
I have looked for recent cases by googling the subject but only found the McGann case.

krd

detective wrote: »

the only way to find out how many is to call your local td who can table the question to the minister for justice. from my experience they are generally just brought to prison and released immediately. most criminals who receive fines in lieu of sentences don't pay the fines because they know this so the only loser is irish society. they have to change the system in this regard.

They've only been releasing people immediately recently. In the last year. Go back a few years and there was a surprisingly high number of people in Mountjoy for non-payment of fines. I think it was 5% of the prison population were there for non-payment of fines.

Builderfromhell

Thanks KRD,
If they are adopting a revolving door policy then it does not seem like a disincentive to ignoring your bills. Yet if they jail the increasing numbers who can't or wont pay their debts the prisons will not be bale to cope especially as crime appears to be on the rise now.

Our man in Havana

The numbers being jailed for not paying debts will fall with the new act. The can't pays will not be jailed for starters. The won't pays know the system well and can avoid jail.

PCPhoto

Our man in Havana wrote: »

The numbers being jailed for not paying debts will fall with the new act. The can't pays will not be jailed for starters. The won't pays know the system well and can avoid jail.

so true !!

those that know the system ....know how to use/abuse it.

Kosseegan

Builderfromhell wrote: »

Thanks KRD,
If they are adopting a revolving door policy then it does not seem like a disincentive to ignoring your bills. Yet if they jail the increasing numbers who can't or wont pay their debts the prisons will not be bale to cope especially as crime appears to be on the rise now.

The revolving door policy arises in respect of non-payment of fines. Not paying a civil debt becomes contempt of court when an instalment order is made and disobeyed. There is no revolving door in such cases.

Builderfromhell

My brother has a business and is owed money by many other businesses. One business owes him approximately 50,000. They wrote off about 150,000 in bad debts last year.
He is extremely disgruntled by the legal system as he has found that bringing someone to court who owes him say 5,000 may lead to a judge agreeing a payment of 20 euro a month for years. This sum is then paid for a couple of months and then stopped.
He then has to start the whole legal process again in order to get paid.

Is this what is really happening out there?

Our man in Havana

Pretty much.

When yer man stops paying the €20 you then have to go an issue a commital summons. Then the debtor will promise to start paying again and it gets struck out. He pays again for a few more months, repeat rinse and repeat.