filling you own company annual returns

kdowling

Is it possible to prepare your own annual returns for a limited company or do you have to get an accountant to do it for you?
My accounts are pretty straight forward so was thinking of doing it myself.
Is it is possible, is it as simple as getting the forms from revenue and filling them in?
I would appreciate any help anyone can give me.

rorymcgrory

I would like to know this too. My accountant charged me 1600 for doing mine and its the same salary each month

J.Ryan

kdowling wrote: »

Is it possible to prepare your own annual returns for a limited company or do you have to get an accountant to do it for you?
My accounts are pretty straight forward so was thinking of doing it myself.
Is it is possible, is it as simple as getting the forms from revenue and filling them in?
I would appreciate any help anyone can give me.

Depends on if you qualify for an audit exemption. You could also see about a fee reduction.

It can be done, but I would advise against the DIY approach in filing accounts in the CRO.

J.Ryan

rorymcgrory wrote: »

I would like to know this too. My accountant charged me 1600 for doing mine and its the same salary each month

Payroll only, seems a bit steep for that, but there could be other things done.

Drop me a pm with what they do, weekly or monthly, No of employees on each and I'll give you a rough price range.

srsly78

Yes you absolutely can do it yourself, and it's quite easy. Accountants are trying to get your business so they won't tell you this Note this assumes you are audit-exempt, if you don't keep your nose clean you will lose this status and have to pay big money for proper audits.

J.Ryan

J.Ryan wrote: »

Depends on if you qualify for an audit exemption. You could also see about a fee reduction.

It can be done, but I would advise against the DIY approach in filing accounts in the CRO.

srsly78 wrote: »

Yes you absolutely can do it yourself, and it's quite easy. Accountants are trying to get your business so they won't tell you this Note this assumes you are audit-exempt, if you don't keep your nose clean you will lose this status and have to pay big money for proper audits.

Hmmmmmm, give a profession a bad name.


The reason I advise against it, is that there are certain disclosures mandated by company law are you could easily miss one of these required disclosures.

spoonface

kdowling wrote: »

Is it possible to prepare your own annual returns for a limited company or do you have to get an accountant to do it for you?
My accounts are pretty straight forward so was thinking of doing it myself.
Is it is possible, is it as simple as getting the forms from revenue and filling them in?
I would appreciate any help anyone can give me.

I used to do it myself and then one year I missed out on the submission deadline, thus meaning I was obliged to get audited accounts done, which cost me a bundle. Since then I have been very careful to get everything in on time and I used the accountant's accounts as a template for future years to make my own accounts, in fact I built software to do it and it was good coz it made me get more organised with my figures and really understand everything. So you can do it but will need to understand the nuances of accounts, how the P&L flows into the balance sheet etc.
For PAYE stuff, I never did figure it out but use a guy who's both good and cheap to work out the figures for me. PM me if you'd like his contact details, he's a good guy.

If you decide to do all the submissions (revenue & CRO) yourself, here's what you'll be taking on...

VAT3 (Jan-Apr returned in May,May-Aug in Sept,Sept-Dec in Jan, or bi-monthly if preferred)
VAT RTD (beginning of year)
P30 monthly - due in by the 14th of each month
CT1 (Corp Tax return, towards the end of the year)

B1 with accounts

P60 - only issued to the employees,not Revenue. Must be issued each Jan.

Income Levy statement - only issued to the employees,not Revenue. Must be issued each Jan.

P35 & P35L - this is sent on by Revenue in late January. You must complete it to confirm the details of the last year's payments are correct as stated by them.

J.Ryan

spoonface wrote: »

......I used the accountant's accounts as a template for future years to make my own accounts......

You've updated things like the CA references (Companies Acts 1963 to 2009) I take it, to give one example of an easy slip.

Also if you're using the accounts accounts as your template, I assume that he audited you and you're using the audited accounts and removing the audit report, so did you then remember to place the disclosures on the balance sheet that you are availing of the audit exemption (another example of something easy to miss), as they wouldn't have been on the balance sheet you used as a template.


As I stated earlier, you can DIY CRO returns, but you need to be very careful.

spoonface

J.Ryan wrote: »

You've updated things like the CA references (Companies Acts 1963 to 2009) I take it, to give one example of an easy slip.

Also if you're using the accounts accounts as your template, I assume that he audited you and you're using the audited accounts and removing the audit report, so did you then remember to place the disclosures on the balance sheet that you are availing of the audit exemption (another example of something easy to miss), as they wouldn't have been on the balance sheet you used as a template.


As I stated earlier, you can DIY CRO returns, but you need to be very careful.

Good point re CA references, I've updated my template now, thanks for that.

Yes I had removed the audit report and included the audit exemptio, which I took from a different set of accounts.

You're right, it's important to be careful if doing it DIY.

J.Ryan

spoonface wrote: »

Good point re CA references, I've updated my template now, thanks for that.

Yes I had removed the audit report and included the audit exemptio, which I took from a different set of accounts.

You're right, it's important to be careful if doing it DIY.

You're welcome, but thats really how easy it is to make a mistake doing a DIY set of accounts. I can't remember how many pages the proof reading checklist I use has.

spoonface

J.Ryan wrote: »

You're welcome, but thats really how easy it is to make a mistake doing a DIY set of accounts. I can't remember how many pages the proof reading checklist I use has.

Is that checklist something standard that's available to anyone, or an internal document? A checklist is certainly something I could use evidently.

J.Ryan

Its part of the work programs I use, so its copyrighted elsewhere I'm afraid.

kennyb3

Im with J.Ryan on this one, probably because im also in the business.

I think only people with a background in accounting should do the return themselves. The reasons being:

1. Constantly changing tax legislation. If you don't know your taxes inside out how can you know your claiming everything and dealing with everything correctly.

Accountant generally help with claims for travel & subsistence, make adjustments for capital allowances, and other tax related adjustments.

If peolpe are comfortable with deferred tax, balancing charges/allowance, close company surcharges then by all means go ahead and file your CT1.

2. Changing disclosure regulations. Recent changes include:

- splitting tax creditor between vat and paye/prsi in the notes
- updated companies Acts
- Updated FRSSE
- Disclosure of directors interests in abridged accounts.

So again if you know all this and more you are probably more than competent to file your own B1.

3. Yes accountants charge but a point that is always missed is this:

A €1,210 bill is only really a net cost of €875 (72.3% of original biil) to company because of a) the vat claim you can make if vat registered b) the corporation tax deduction.

For a sole trader who is vat registered and paying tax at the highest rate a bill of €1,210 can amount to €500 net cost after the tax allowances.

Is it really that expensive so? Is it not worth the peace of mind, knowing a Revenue audit is significantly less likely? Does it not free up your time to concentrate on other areas?

Anyway just my 2c.

Regards,

Brian

srsly78

J.Ryan wrote: »

Hmmmmmm, give a profession a bad name.


The reason I advise against it, is that there are certain disclosures mandated by company law are you could easily miss one of these required disclosures.

The ROS online system sends you reminders about all these documents, thus you are being disingenuous

BarMcc

J. Ryan was referring to company law requirements. ROS is the Revenue system and does not issue reminders about company law documents/disclosure requirements. The CRO are responsible for company secretarial issues.

kennyb3

BarMcc wrote: »

J. Ryan was referring to company law requirements. ROS is the Revenue system and does not issue reminders about company law documents/disclosure requirements. The CRO are responsible for company secretarial issues.

Exactly! Big difference between tax requirements and company act requirements. Think the above poster just proved our point.

srsly78

And the CRO send you reminders too, did you just forget to mention that as well? Comes in big envelopes with IMPORTANT in massive letters on it!

I got this advice from a good accountant: "you do not need an accountant for your 1 employee company". It's very easy in 2011 with all the online stuff available. Very hard to get unbiased advice off you guys since your business depends on it. I dare you to post here confirming that what I have said is correct about both the ROS and CRO reminders. In fairness maybe some of you are old-school accountant and are not aware of new systems?

And for the sake of transparency: I do all the books myself, BUT... I get an accountant friend to throw his eye over them before I submit EoY (he refuses payment but I buy him loads of pints lol).

J.Ryan

J.Ryan wrote: »

Hmmmmmm, give a profession a bad name.


The reason I advise against it, is that there are certain disclosures mandated by company law are you could easily miss one of these required disclosures.

Note I spoke about the disclosures in the accounts, disclosures mandated by the Companies Acts 1963 - 2009

srsly78 wrote: »

The ROS online system sends you reminders about all these documents, thus you are being disingenuous

You reply that the systems sends you reminders to file the returns

srsly78 wrote: »

And the CRO send you reminders too, did you just forget to mention that as well? Comes in big envelopes with IMPORTANT in massive letters on it!

I got this advice from a good accountant: "you do not need an accountant for your 1 employee company". It's very easy in 2011 with all the online stuff available. Very hard to get unbiased advice off you guys since your business depends on it. I dare you to post here confirming that what I have said is correct about both the ROS and CRO reminders. In fairness maybe some of you are old-school accountant and are not aware of new systems?

And for the sake of transparency: I do all the books myself, BUT... I get an accountant friend to throw his eye over them before I submit EoY (he refuses payment but I buy him loads of pints lol).

We never said they didn't, we are talking about the formating of the information in the accounts to comply with presentation and disclosure requirements as laid down by the law, you're talking about being reminded to submit a return, two different things.


Look at the 3rd post in this thread (here it is)

J.Ryan wrote: »

Depends on if you qualify for an audit exemption. You could also see about a fee reduction.

It can be done, but I would advise against the DIY approach in filing accounts in the CRO.

kennyb3

@ srsly78, i do not want to get into a fight but I have so many issues with your post:

1. Yes the CRO send you reminders, nobody said they dont. They send you a reminder to file a B1, which is a from you can easily complete yourself no issue there. Its what is attached to the B1 that counts.

The financial statements need to be in accrodance with company law and Irish GAAP. Its compliance with theses that will keep you from a visit from the Director of Corporate enforcement.

2. On the tax side of things you need to know how to fill out a CT! properly and what is tax deductible and not:

You need to know about tax issues like:

- The difference between HP and leasing
- How to treat the capital element and finance element of repayments
- The difference between depreciation and wear and tear
- How to calculate balancing charges and allowances
- Close company surcharges
- How to treat deposit interest earned

That just a sample.

3. You openly admit in your last line you get an accountant friend to look at your accounts, yet you are advising others to do them themselves.

4. Yes we may be a tiny bit biased but we are not liarers. Most of us come on here and post to help others, not to generate business (as this would be a very time inefficient way), so perhaps you could give us a bit more credit. We have confirmed you receive CRO and ROS reminders and perhaps you should look up what CPD is before you suuggest we are old school accountants. There is nt such a thing or we wouldnt have a business. I dont insult you and your business or comment on what i dont know.

5. Finally a good accountant is more than just a compliance tool. They should be able to provide meaningful advice on how to improve various aspects of your business. They can also provide accounts training and advices.

Regards,

Brian

srsly78

@jryan: I posted about the reminders because you said this: "you could easily miss one of the required disclosures", which struck me as disingenuous.

The situation now is very different from 10 years ago, mainly because of the automatic audit-exemption. Yes I get some help with my EoY, but not with the various monthly/bi forms. This is my objection, you guys seem to be advising people they need help regarding these small items as well, which are a doddle now we have ROS.

J.Ryan

srsly78 wrote: »

@jryan: I posted about the reminders because you said this: "you could easily miss one of the required disclosures", which struck me as disingenuous.

.

A disclosure is not related in any way to the reminders, this has been pointed out in numerous posts above. The CRO sends out a reminder to file a B1, we all agree on that, what the rest of us are talking about is the disclosures mandated by company law in the set of accounts that accompany the B1, a point that you completely fail to address or even acknowledge.

srsly78 wrote: »

The situation now is very different from 10 years ago, mainly because of the automatic audit-exemption. ......

There is no automatic audit exemption, there is a proceedure to be followed, it can be done easily by the directors, but it still requires them to do something.

srsly78 wrote: »

....Yes I get some help with my EoY, but not with the various monthly/bi forms. This is my objection, you guys seem to be advising people they need help regarding these small items as well, which are a doddle now we have ROS.

You are the only one talking about VAT/PAYE, read the original question.

kdowling wrote: »

Is it possible to prepare your own annual returns for a limited company or do you have to get an accountant to do it for you?........

MartMax

Oh gawd! The accountants are robbing us all over again!

barneystinson

Just gonna wade in and resurrect this thread to point out some things that popped into my head as I read through it, but didn't crop up during the discussion - what about the complete set of financial statements required to be laid before the AGM of the company, along with the appropriate notes and disclosures, as distinct from the abridged accounts for filing to CRO, which appear to have been the central theme of the earlier discussion.

Then there's the rest of the company secretarial work, the notice/minutes of said AGM, S.40 issues (given that we appear to be talking about small companies which may well have negative net assets), maintaining of the company registers, etc etc etc, responsibilities of the officers of the company but in my experience usually executed by the accountant. Oh, and I nearly forgot, we're going to be moving to mandatory efiling of accounts to Revenue (and I presume also to CRO) via XBRL within the next 2 years, so there will be issues aplenty around these big changes, which the professional accounting practice will be resourced to deal with, but could vex the DIY director.

So, I'm just wondering if the DIY guys are fulfilling all of the obligations they are legally required to. Everything may appear rosy, and they might be delighted with themselves saving €1.5 - 2k a year until the day the proverbial hits the fan... be it a problem with Revenue, the ODCE, or even the bank - perhaps I'm wrong but I would imagine they wouldn't be too happy being handed Ltd Co. accounts that haven't been prepared by an accountant, particularly in the times we're living in... (one of the DIY lads might shed light on that for me?)

And just to clarify, yes I'm an accountant, but I no longer work in the profession, so I have no vested interest in maintaining the status quo..! (Really I'm just hoping to restart an argument that I never got to join in at the time...! )

Legend100

From my experience Barneystinson, the banks will not accept Ltd company accounts without an accountants report but this is only in my experience,
(im an accountant btw)

Technoprisoner

this is the htread i was trying to find lol....i have a limited company and my ard is due....and the company has not traded yet and i was wondering if there was any accountants out there that charge a reasonable rate for fileing 0's for me?

J.Ryan

Technoprisoner wrote: »

this is the htread i was trying to find lol....i have a limited company and my ard is due....and the company has not traded yet and i was wondering if there was any accountants out there that charge a reasonable rate for fileing 0's for me?

Feel free to PM me