Election 2011 who gets your vote

rochey84

Hi guys and girls!

I saw a debate the other night from a Sinn Feinner, he was urging ppl to vote sinn fein in the General Election based solely on the promise that they would work hard and better for the LGBT community, while I realise that this is an important issue, its not something that I would base my entire vote on, so I was wondering if you guys would let this be the main driver behind your vote and for those that are under 18 since this is a discussion I really welcome your opinions?

Sorry if this is in the wrong forum but the nature of the question leads me to believe that this is the right place to post it!

Dr. Baltar

rochey84 wrote: »

Hi guys and girls!

I saw a debate the other night from a Sinn Feinner, he was urging ppl to vote sinn fein in the General Election based solely on the promise that they would work hard and better for the LGBT community, while I realise that this is an important issue, its not something that I would base my entire vote on, so I was wondering if you guys would let this be the main driver behind your vote and for those that are under 18 since this is a discussion I really welcome your opinions?

Sorry if this is in the wrong forum but the nature of the question leads me to believe that this is the right place to post it!

If we weren't in recession, I would definately vote for the party who was most pro-LGBT in my eyes, but unfortunately now I'm thinking what kind of life would future kids of mine have anyway?

It's a tough one, Sinn Féin and Labour are definately the most pro-LGBT parties, and Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael would be the most anti-LGBT parties in my view. So what to do?

Ideally, I would vote for a party such as the Progressive Democrats who were both socially liberal and economically towards the right. But now? I guess the best I can hope for is to have Fine Gael in charge of economics and Labour in Charge of society as a whole.

I don't know who I'm going to vote for. I'm so angry with the current shape of things I wouldn't be surprised if I throw the Shinners down as number 1 to piss the establishment off.

Chuchoter

I think its hilarious the way now that we're coming up to an election are like "OMG the gays! We LOVE the gays! Vote for us! Even though we totally forgot about you otherwise!!"

Myself, frankly I don't like any of the parties. If I could take Fine Gaels (comparitive to FF) honesty and economic ideas together with a progressive social agenda, I would be happy. But that party doesn't exist

Azure_sky

Labour, not that the there's any other real options. Only three parties in Ireland who can really have influence. One is corrupt, the other is conservative Christian and then there's Labour. Only option by default for me.

wonderfulname

I'm going to vote Labour. Not because they are pro-LGBT rights, I think every party is pro-votes and regardless of who gets in when public sentiment is strongly pro-LGBT then steps will be taken towards equality with a minimum of fuss.

Economic matters aren't something that worry me when it comes to voting, its too late for that now and besides, its not like the next government will have all that much say in what happens from here, I think in the coming years it actually makes more sense to have a greater focus on social matters, although as has been said above a FG-esque financial policy would be a bonus.
Labour make some interesting proposals regarding Dail and constitutional reform, the latter is quite necessary in my eyes. Aside from that, their core principles match up with my own, and not including times when they attempt to do what looks good, I have approved of every stance they have taken to date.

I seriously disagree with voting for your own good, or voting as a reaction. Any party which focuses too much on one demographic will ultimately fail them all as the whole system must work, not just one part. Years of FF pumping money in to social welfare to look like nice, caring people didn't do anybody any good in the end. Neither did licking the arses of the wealthy.
We need a party with the whole package, we don't have that as of yet, but I believe Labour is the closest thing to it. I will certainly never vote Sinn Fein, I don't trust them, and I don't see the point of a party which is nothing more than the cheerleaders of the underdogs.

L.Jenkins

crayolastereo wrote: »

I think its hilarious the way now that we're coming up to an election are like "OMG the gays! We LOVE the gays! Vote for us! Even though we totally forgot about you otherwise!!"

It's all about distraction. In some cases the elect are pretty good at having you forget about all their false promise to get your vote again. Personally, I'm voting as I always have, for an independant. It will be along time before you ever see a transparent Government with a broad base of policy that suitably covers everone and everything.

gcgirl

Labour are the only party with an active LGBT section which I think is excellent can't ever see FG going down the route or FF far too conservative, sinn fein I have a bit of a mental block with because of their history ESP the70's,80's and early 90's

rochey84

I think these are all valid points except for the message that insists that FF are extremely christan, they are the 1s that (eventually) brought us Civil Partnership, granted it isn't great but its better than we've ever had before!!! I'm finding this very interesting given everyone's views and I would love to get more of an idea who to vote for from my peers and in simple english as I find the parties tend to try to bamboozle you with big words and over-use of the english language!!!

gcgirl

The greens(as much as i hate the fookers) pushed it Dermot Ahern opposed the decrimliation of homosexualty back in 93 which more or less says it

gcgirl

Remember it was also FF who let John Charles McQuaid write the constitution I know it was back in 1936 but we have been paying for it ever since ;-(

wonderfulname

rochey84 wrote: »

I think these are all valid points except for the message that insists that FF are extremely christan, they are the 1s that (eventually) brought us Civil Partnership, granted it isn't great but its better than we've ever had before!!!

FF were surprised by a Labour proposal for civil partnership in 2007. The Bill made express provision for children of a civil union relationship. The Bill was introduced in February 2007, and an attempt was made to reintroduce it in
October 2007 but the Bill fell when a general election was called. Then FF came up with a more conservative version of the bill, leaving children of same-sex couples out of the loop and passed it off as their own idea, and a great step forward, in reality it was a step back from where we should have been.

L1011

Labour's proposal was for civil *marriage* not partnership, a fairly important distinction here. Them and SF are the only parties pushing full marriage properly.

wonderfulname

Yes but the constitution does not allow for full marriage, who's proposing constitutional reform?

Dr. Baltar

wonderfulname wrote: »

Yes but the constitution does not allow for full marriage, who's proposing constitutional reform?

Not exactly, it's unclear what the constitution says about same-sex marriage due to the fact that it never clearly states that marriage is between a man and a woman. I believe that there is a case in the supreme court about this at the moment?

It's possible that the court could rule that marriage is not just between a man and a woman and that simple legislation could give the LGBT community rqual rights.

However, if said court case fails, then yes, a referendum would be needed to change the constitution in order to allow same sex couples to marry.

L1011

wonderfulname wrote: »

Yes but the constitution does not allow for full marriage, who's proposing constitutional reform?

Thats for the Supreme Court to decide. There is no wording in the constitution explicitly banning it, only text which says the state must protect the "household" ("Family" is a mistranslation, and the Irish language text is the only legal version).

FF pretend there is an explicit ban as they know the most likely people to object to a party putting forward full marriage are amongst their core support.

wonderfulname

Dr. Baltar wrote: »

Not exactly, it's unclear what the constitution says about same-sex marriage due to the fact that it never clearly states that marriage is between a man and a woman. I believe that there is a case in the supreme court about this at the moment?

It's possible that the court could rule that marriage is not just between a man and a woman and that simple legislation could give the LGBT community rqual rights.

However, if said court case fails, then yes, a referendum would be needed to change the constitution in order to allow same sex couples to marry.

The court has ruled on previous occasions?

L1011

wonderfulname wrote: »

The court has ruled on previous occasions?

Not on this issue.

littlehedgehog

I will be voting labour.
More importantly, for the first time in my life, I actually care enough to vote. If there's one good thing ff did, it's create a massive bunch of seriously pissed off people which will hugely outnumber the 'always voted ff, always will' people.

Annasopra

rochey84 wrote: »

I think these are all valid points except for the message that insists that FF are extremely christan, they are the 1s that (eventually) brought us Civil Partnership, granted it isn't great but its better than we've ever had before!!!

FF has a good record on legislation in the areas of LGBT rights but only because other parties have forced them - Labour forced decriminalisation in 1992/1993, pressure from all other parties especially Labour and greens forced civil partnership - The greens also appear to have forced dropping the Lydia Foy appeal

Labour has an active LGBT section since 2004 that has engaged with many LGBT organisations in Ireland and worldwide (many socialist and social democratic parties have LGBT groups and there are clear links between Labour LGBT and similar groups within sister parties)
so it's a bit disingenuous to claim as crayolostereo does that parties only come around at election time saying we love the gays etc etc - In fact were it not for Labour LGBT forcing partnership rights as an issue within the labour party between 2004 and 2007 and the Labour TDs forcing the issue in the Dail from 2006/2007 onwards I honestly don't think we would have civil partnership yet.

I say this as someone who is completely biased and a member of Labour LGBT

I don't think people should vote purely based on LGBT issues but its a significant factor for me. In fact I believe that you can't have social justice without economic justice so for me social democratic economic policies are equally as important as social democratic social policies. The current economic crisis shows in my view the complete failures of neo liberal economic policies of deregulation

As an aside Sinn Fein do to the best of my knowledge have an LGBT group as well.

Chuchoter

I was actually referring to the fact that thats the second political party (1st FF and now SF) thats come saying they are all into gay rights and we should vote for them for that one reason, but any-who, I just think its interesting that we seem to be a targeted demographic all of a sudden.

L1011

crayolastereo wrote: »

I was actually referring to the fact that thats the second political party (1st FF and now SF) thats come saying they are all into gay rights and we should vote for them for that one reason, but any-who, I just think its interesting that we seem to be a targeted demographic all of a sudden.

SF have been in to gay rights and to a significantly higher level for massively longer than than FF have. 1980s I believe, vs. FF's conversion THIS YEAR when they're running out of votes.

Still have other reasons I wouldn't vote for them, though.

Chuchoter

Just going from their Moving On policy on the website, I can't see anything explicitly stating they are for gay marriage though, but I could be corrected on that. Its just that its the second party having said that gay people should vote for their party purely on the basis of that they do gay rights.

rochey84

I seem to have started a very interesting debate, I only ever voted for FF because as business my family suffered under the last opposition government, however I don't think the family business suffered this much. So I am very grateful to all the info being provided here, Johnnymc (sorry if I spelt it wrong) seems to be very well informed, albiet bias by his own admission. I would love it if there was someone from each of the parties that could articulate information the way Johnny did for Labour!

wonderfulname

crayolastereo wrote: »

Just going from their Moving On policy on the website, I can't see anything explicitly stating they are for gay marriage though, but I could be corrected on that. Its just that its the second party having said that gay people should vote for their party purely on the basis of that they do gay rights.

No, there isn't anything, are you mad? With the lot they appeal to taking such a stand would be suicide.

L1011

crayolastereo wrote: »

Just going from their Moving On policy on the website, I can't see anything explicitly stating they are for gay marriage though, but I could be corrected on that. Its just that its the second party having said that gay people should vote for their party purely on the basis of that they do gay rights.

Is that not the *economic* policy document?

FF are the "second party" here, indeed fourth. Labour, Greens and SF in that order have all come out, so to speak, about their gay rights policies, many many years ago.

hotmail.com

Whilst Labour want full civil marriage, they are going into government with a party, that as far as I know, does not support that position.

Will Labour make this a sticking point in their negotiations for a programme for government, that's the big question.

Dr. Baltar

hotmail.com wrote: »

Whilst Labour want full civil marriage, they are going into government with a party, that as far as I know, does not support that position.

Will Labour make this a sticking point in their negotiations for a programme for government, that's the big question.

I believe that to be the case also. Fine Gael has always stuck me as a rather 'rural' party.

wonderfulname

Oi! Don't insult us rural people!

I think the constitution may be a sticking point, and I find it hard to believe that nobody will latch on to that and make it impossible not to have full marriage through it.

L.Jenkins

Granted, I'm all for civil marriage, but I'd like to see any party with that as part of their manifesto along with a more agreeable policy on pretty much everything else, i.e. Jobs, Health and so on and so fourth.

Still makes me sad to know that any candidate will tell me what I want to hear, just to get a vote.

KnifeWRENCH

With regards to LGBT rights, if the youth wing of Fianna Fáil is anything to go by I am somewhat optimistic that they will be a more progressive party in the future. They have policy documents in favour of full marriage equality. I don't have that same optimism as far as Fine Gael are concerned; they are fundamentally a conservative Christian party and officially listed as a "Christian democracy" whereas FF (despite their foundation by strictly catholic Dev) does not have that specific ideology, to the best of my kbnowledge. For now anyway, both parties leave a lot to be desired as far as social issues like LGBT rights are concerned. And then of course you have corruption and butchering the economy where FF are concerned...

I would also love a party that was socially liberal but economically conservative. With the current political climate and new political groups sprining up every so often, I'm hopeful that party will come along some day. For this election, I will most likely vote Labour (I don't like the fact that they're in bed with the trade unions but weighing up all considerations they are the least objectionable alternative out there at the moment.) The only other viable option for meis voting Independent, but I'd have to wait and see who's running.

hotmail.com

KnifeWRENCH wrote: »

With regards to LGBT rights, if the youth wing of Fianna Fáil is anything to go by I am somewhat optimistic that they will be a more progressive party in the future. They have policy documents in favour of full marriage equality. I don't have that same optimism as far as Fine Gael are concerned; they are fundamentally a conservative Christian party and officially listed as a "Christian democracy" whereas FF (despite their foundation by strictly catholic Dev) does not have that specific ideology, to the best of my kbnowledge. For now anyway, both parties leave a lot to be desired as far as social issues like LGBT rights are concerned. And then of course you have corruption and butchering the economy where FF are concerned...

I would also love a party that was socially liberal but economically conservative. With the current political climate and new political groups sprining up every so often, I'm hopeful that party will come along some day. For this election, I will most likely vote Labour (I don't like the fact that they're in bed with the trade unions but weighing up all considerations they are the least objectionable alternative out there at the moment.) The only other viable option for meis voting Independent, but I'd have to wait and see who's running.

Complex history to the social policy of the two main parties, but both parties get most of their vote from rural areas and older people. Thus, both parties are traditionally conservative on social matters. There is right wing members in both parties, so I wouldn't say there's a big difference in either party.

In fairness to FG, they were the party that introduced the divorce referendum in the 1990s (almost 50% voted against it).

Azure_sky

Dr. Baltar wrote: »

I believe that to be the case also. Fine Gael has always stuck me as a rather 'rural' party.

Their primary niche is the wealthy rural farmer.

Azure_sky

Dr. Baltar wrote: »

Ideally, I would vote for a party such as the Progressive Democrats who were both socially liberal and economically towards the right.

Damn capitalists.:P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnxPuidq1qQ

Donnaghm

1st preference - FG because I trust them the most with the economy.

2nd preference - Lab because they're quite liberal on social policy.

Also, set up a poll!

rochey84

Donnaghm wrote: »

Also, set up a poll!

Poll set up and it is remaining private so please feel free to vote openly!!!

Bottle_of_Smoke

Do SF actually support full civil marriage for same sex couples? Have they pushed for it to replace the civil partnership apartheid bill? Only ones I've heard being vocal about supporting full civil marriage are the socialist republican group Eirigi but I don't think they're even running