Who's more in the wrong? M50 Speed Limit

ironclaw

Hi Folks,

This question has bugged me for a while and I'd like to get a general consensus.

Location: The M50 on the 3 lane 100 km/ph section.

I'm taking lane 1 as the lane closest to the central median and lane 3 as the lane furtherest from the central median.

If your progressing at in lane 3 (e.g. Speed 75 km/ph) and from slowing traffic you move into lane 2 (Perfectly legal overtake with intentions to move back to lane 3) (e.g. Speed now 85 km/ph)

If while in lane 2 you again are in a position to overtake and move into lane 1. You now accelerate (as road conditions permit) to the max at 100 km/ph and continue to overtake as your moving and passing, while at all times preparing to move into lane 2, and subsequently to lane 1 as necessary.


My question is, if someone barrels up behind you at 120 km/ph+ in lane 1 and is sitting right behind you at a dangerously close distance. You can't move into lane 2 due to traffic and your the first car in the queue. Who is in the wrong?

Why is it seemingly wrong in this country to obey the speed limit and legally overtake while being hassled by other drivers? Who is more wrong, the driver obeying the speed limit and road rules, or the driver behind "pushing"?

Question stems from an incident on the M50 last week where the driver behind me was closer than 5 feet I would say from my rear bumper at 100 km/ph in somewhat wet conditions. Pushing doesn't matter to me, I was more worried if I had to hit the brakes.

Paulw

The person behind you is in the wrong, and should there be an accident, they would be liable for not keeping a safe distance.

ironclaw

Paulw wrote: »

The person behind you is in the wrong, and should there be an accident, they would be liable for not keeping a safe distance.

Thats my reasoning exactly but that person mustn't care if they are that close?

KamiKazi

It's safer to speed up and get back into the left lane quicker IMO, forget about the speed limit when overtaking.

spockety

KamiKazi wrote: »

It's safer to speed up and get back into the left lane quicker IMO, forget about the speed limit when overtaking.

Yup, don't worry about points or anything, sure 'tis all hunky dory.

CJ83

This is just a typical driving experience. It doesn't matter what speed you're doing, you could have been doing 120 and still there will be some idiot wanting to do 130 or more and will be stuck to your bumper. You answer your own question I think, you know the outside lane is for overtaking and you shouldn't keep driving in it, so if you move to that lane to overtake another car you should move back over afterwards. Don't break the speed limit, and try to completely ignore anyone up the arse of your car. These idiots are the ones flying down the outside lane the whole time like it a normal lane, and sooner or later they will be caught, or worse. Best you can do is stay out of the way.

kmick

The whole point is that you dont sit in the overtaking lane though. If you are not able to overtake quaicly and safely then just stay on lane 2? Fully agree though if there was an accident it would be their fault. That would not be much consolation if you were wrapped around the enarest tree though.

Ush1

There is no set speed at which you must overtake AFAIK. As long as you are moving faster and overtaking traffic on the lane to the left, you're perfectly entitled to be in that lane.

The other guy was just tail gating stupidly.

ironclaw

Ush1 wrote: »

There is no set speed at which you must overtake AFAIK. As long as you are moving faster and overtaking traffic on the lane to the left, you're perfectly entitled to be in that lane.

The other guy was just tail gating stupidly.

The speed limit is 100 km/ph so thats your max. Your not entitled to drive in lane 3 no matter how fast your going or how many cars your overtaking. Once you have the ability to move to a "left-er" lane you should do so.

The whole point is that you dont sit in the overtaking lane though. If you are not able to overtake quaicly and safely then just stay on lane 2? Fully agree though if there was an accident it would be their fault. That would not be much consolation if you were wrapped around the enarest tree though

I was merely moving to lane 1 as I was able to overtake at a considerably faster speed (+ 15Km/ph on lane 2) You don't have to over take at 1000 km/ph I was doing so safely at at the speed limit with ever intention of moving back to lane 2 when it was safe to do so.

I agree with the accident though, your probably going to come off worse that the tailgater. And if you speed, your going to be the one pulled.

BrianD3

How far away was he when you pulled into the lane closest to the median? Even if he was speeding, you still have to give way to traffic already present in the lane you are entering. If he was 1000 metres behind you when you changed lanes then that couldn't really be considered bad driving on your part. Whereas if he was 50 metres behind then that could be considered bad driving on your part.

edit: rereading your poist its not clear if he was in the lane all along or moved there from another lane after you had commenced your overtake

Either way, he shouldn't tailgate.

PS the lane closest to the median is generally termed Lane 3, the middle lane = Lane 2, the left lane = Lane 1

Ush1

ironclaw wrote: »

The speed limit is 100 km/ph so thats your max. Your not entitled to drive in lane 3 no matter how fast your going or how many cars your overtaking. Once you have the ability to move to a "left-er" lane you should do so.

Erm, that's what I said. You're entitled to be the far right lane as long as you're moving faster than and overtaking the traffic in the lane to the left.

If you're in that lane going 100 kph and not overtaking, get out of the way as it's not your job to police the road and you aren't overtaking.

Big Nasty

Doesn't everyone know it's 1>2>3 not 3<2<1 ?

Alun

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Doesn't everyone know it's 1>2>3 not 3<2<1 ?

Yes, and there's no such unit of speed as km/ph either

Wolverine_1999

Ush1 wrote: »

Erm, that's what I said. You're entitled to be the far right lane as long as you're moving faster than and overtaking the traffic in the lane to the left.

If you're in that lane going 100 kph and not overtaking, get out of the way as it's not your job to police the road and you aren't overtaking.

Ditto. I have no problem with people overtaking and going at 100kph.. that's the limit and I respect other people's decisions. Once you're done overtaking - get out of the way however!

Nothing worse than someone doing 80-90 in a single carriage 100kph zone though...

Big Nasty

Alun wrote: »

Yes, and there's no such unit of speed as km/ph either

Of course there is:

Kilometres Per Per Hour!

corktina

would be easier to answer if you had stuck with the convention of the first lane being no1 and the overtaking lanes being 2 and 3...

however, it seems to me you are both wrong...one shouldnt be crusing in the outside lane (no3 in my book!) and the other shouldnt be speeding. The sensible thing to do in this example would be to pull back into the left most available lane and let the guy go.. Not much point though as you can bet there will be someone else blocking it just down the road.

God, I hate sharing my road with such bad drivers as you get in this country,.

meathstevie

If the gap between the cars in the lane to your left is 100 meter or more you HAVE to move back into the lane on your left and do your overtakes in stages. If you're doing a continuous overtake in the far right lane ( or any other lane that's not the left hand driving lane btw ) you have to make sure :

- that there's no vehicles coming towards you in that lane at a higher speed than you as you have to give priority to traffic allready in that lane, whether their speeding or not is irrelevant. The priority issue stands for all lane changes.

- you do your overtake as fast and smooth as legally and practically possible. It is just bad driving if you do an overtake at 80km/h on an 100km/h 3rd lane of a motorway if the practical circumstances allow you to drive at the speedlimit. Put it this way, if it was a dual carriage way and your driving test it would be a mark against you for insufficient progress.

Alun

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Of course there is:

Kilometres Per Per Hour!

I thought it was kilometres per pico-hour which makes 100km/ph waaay over the speed limit

pippip

corktina wrote: »

would be easier to answer if you had stuck with the convention of the first lane being no1 and the overtaking lanes being 2 and 3...

however, it seems to me you are both wrong...one shouldnt be crusing in the outside lane (no3 in my book!) and the other shouldnt be speeding. The sensible thing to do in this example would be to pull back into the left most available lane and let the guy go.. Not much point though as you can bet there will be someone else blocking it just down the road.

God, I hate sharing my road with such bad drivers as you get in this country,.

Read the original post again. They were doing nothing wrong. The op had moved into lane 1 and was overtaking the traffic in lane 2 and was continuing to overtake until they reached a safe gap to get back in. They were overtaking not cruising and doing the max speed limit.

PS yeh 1,2,3 is easier but i'll stick with the op for now.

ironclaw

corktina wrote: »

would be easier to answer if you had stuck with the convention of the first lane being no1 and the overtaking lanes being 2 and 3...

however, it seems to me you are both wrong...one shouldnt be crusing in the outside lane (no3 in my book!) and the other shouldnt be speeding. The sensible thing to do in this example would be to pull back into the left most available lane and let the guy go.. Not much point though as you can bet there will be someone else blocking it just down the road.

God, I hate sharing my road with such bad drivers as you get in this country,.

Sorry about the convention folks. Just wanted to be crystal clear in my post to avoid confusion. Convention noted.

To be clear:

I wasn't driving in the lane closest the central median.

I don't drive in this lane. I know what its for and what its not for. I had moved progressively from lane 3 to 1 due to traffic. Not lane hopping, progressively overtaking due to slow moving traffic.

When in lane 2 I checked as per usual, no close cars in lane 1, so I overtake up to at the speed limit and in a timely fashion with all intention of moving back progressively to lane 3 when possible (Left of centre etc)

stevenmu

It's fairly common on the m50, especially on wet days, for there to be a queue of cars close together doing 80kph in lane 2, I see nothing wrong with overtaking them in lane 3 (i.e. the "overtaking the overtaking-lane lane" )at 100kph and anybody who tries to push you to go faster is in the wrong.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Dont try enforce the speed limits, if a faster driver is coming up behind you move over and out again when you can. Its frustrating but it avoids accidents. Dont undertake, nobody checks their left mirror before moving into the driving lanes.

rickyjb

The problem here is that everyone drives in the middle lane and the left hand driving lane is left empty, same thing on the m50 every day. Someone pulls out from an empty driving lane (lane 3 using the OPs convention) doing 70 km/h for no reason causing all the traffic using the middle lane to overtake. This has the effect of forcing people out into the right hand overtaking lane (lane "1") who are not really going fast enough or are comfortable enough to be out there.

The next time your on the m50 (or any Irish motorway with moderate traffic) observe the number of cars in the right hand overtaking lane vs the other lane, the distribution will be the opposite of the way it should be i.e. you will have the most cars in the right hand lane followed by the middle lane and the emptiest lane will be the driving lane.

You see this every single day, surprised someone hasn't pointed it out.

E39MSport

Slightly hung over but in a reasonable mood 'til I read this.

I focking hate using the M50. Used to be a carpark, now it's a meeting place for inconsiderate, ignorant motorists.

omb0wyn5ehpij9

stevenmu wrote: »

It's fairly common on the m50, especially on wet days, for there to be a queue of cars close together doing 80kph in lane 2, I see nothing wrong with overtaking them in lane 3 (i.e. the "overtaking the overtaking-lane lane" )at 100kph and anybody who tries to push you to go faster is in the wrong.

They should not push you to go faster, i.e. sitting on your bumper.
But you also are meant to move out of their way if they want to go faster, you aren't allowed block their path

si_guru

Km/ph

Kilometres per Paddy hour - varies by county.

Donegal 100km/ph = 125kph more if you have a A4
Kerry 100km/ph = 65kph or 25kph if a tractor
Dublin 60km/ph = 0 kmh when on the quays.

Alun

si_guru wrote: »

Km/ph

Kilometres per Paddy hour - varies by county.

Donegal 100km/ph = 125kph more if you have a A4
Kerry 100km/ph = 65kph or 25kph if a tractor
Dublin 60km/ph = 0 kmh when on the quays.

corktina

Bryn wrote: »

They should not push you to go faster, i.e. sitting on your bumper.
But you also are meant to move out of their way if they want to go faster, you aren't allowed block their path

exactly...if you are first in the procession in the outer lane, then you should remember that you arent a member of the traffic corps and your speedo could well be underreading by 10%. Just move over and stop making life unpleasant fro everyone else who want to do what THEIR speedo says is 100k

Ush1

Bryn wrote: »

They should not push you to go faster, i.e. sitting on your bumper.
But you also are meant to move out of their way if they want to go faster, you aren't allowed block their path

Not true as long as you are overtaking.

Big Nasty

rickyjb wrote: »

The problem here is that everyone drives in the middle lane and the left hand driving lane is left empty, same thing on the m50 every day. Someone pulls out from an empty driving lane (lane 3 using the OPs convention) doing 70 km/h for no reason causing all the traffic using the middle lane to overtake. This has the effect of forcing people out into the right hand overtaking lane (lane "1") who are not really going fast enough or are comfortable enough to be out there.

The next time your on the m50 (or any Irish motorway with moderate traffic) observe the number of cars in the right hand overtaking lane vs the other lane, the distribution will be the opposite of the way it should be i.e. you will have the most cars in the right hand lane followed by the middle lane and the emptiest lane will be the driving lane.

You see this every single day, surprised someone hasn't pointed it out.

This has been mentioned many, many times before - so much so that I presumed the thread was being discussed knowing this is the case.

rickyjb

MCMLXXV wrote: »

This has been mentioned many, many times before - so much so that I presumed the thread was being discussed knowing this is the case.

Well I'm glad some people are aware of it because the general road-going public certainly don't seem to be!!

johnos1984

Rosa Few Leakage wrote: »

Dont undertake, nobody checks their left mirror before moving into the driving lanes.

I know some will frown on this but I have taken to under taking lately.

The reason: people sitting below the speed limit in the overtaking lanes. I come up behind, give them time to move, flash them but as you say they don't check the mirrors and then I move to undertake at the speed limit while checking for any movements due to the fact I now know they don't check their mirrors so that I can brake or change lane again.

The most frustrating drivers are the ones going slow, see you moving and then suddenly swerve across in front of you to block you from "dangerously undertaking" as in their eyes they are doing nothing wrong.

Also I'm a major fan of just staying in the driving lane and driving at the speed limit. AFAIK your entitled to undertake in that situation as your just cruising.

ironclaw

Why do people not look in their left mirror when moving in?

squod

How anyone makes sense of the M50 is beyond me. The answer to the OP is that no-one gives a fuck. That's the actual problem .

GTE

corktina wrote: »

exactly...if you are first in the procession in the outer lane, then you should remember that you arent a member of the traffic corps and your speedo could well be underreading by 10%. Just move over and stop making life unpleasant fro everyone else who want to do what THEIR speedo says is 100k

With respect that is the second time you have posted in this thread having misunderstood the OP.

Although I agree with you when the person is actually blocking the lane the situation described says that there is someone travelling at above the speed limit for that section of road and meets another car travelling at the speed limit in the most right hand lane. That car is overtaking at least one other car in the middle lane who we must assume is overtaking someone in the most left hand lane.

From that the OP asked who was more at fault. The person who is speeding or the one who is blocking the speeder while doing an overtake.

corktina

no ...i fully understand what the person SAID but in my experiance the person crusing at the front of the queue in the outer lane (which he said he was) is nearly always holding up the traffic with THEIR idea of 100 k which as often as not is 98 or 96 or even lower. If he is going faster than the middel or inner lane, he will be able to pull over as sonn as he passes the car he is passing himself.

The OP asked who is most at fault and I gave the opinion that BOTH drivers are.

ironclaw

corktina wrote: »

no ...i fully understand what the person SAID but in my experiance the person crusing at the front of the queue in the outer lane (which he said he was) is nearly always holding up the traffic with THEIR idea of 100 k which as often as not is 98 or 96 or even lower. If he is going faster than the middel or inner lane, he will be able to pull over as sonn as he passes the car he is passing himself.

The OP asked who is most at fault and I gave the opinion that BOTH drivers are.

I was doing 100 km/h by GPS. I know a Speedo can be underclocked but I'd never second guess a GPS.

GTE

corktina wrote: »

no ...i fully understand what the person SAID but in my experiance the person crusing at the front of the queue in the outer lane (which he said he was) is nearly always holding up the traffic with THEIR idea of 100 k which as often as not is 98 or 96 or even lower. If he is going faster than the middel or inner lane, he will be able to pull over as sonn as he passes the car he is passing himself.

The OP asked who is most at fault and I gave the opinion that BOTH drivers are.

This all stems from your first post but come on Corktina.

corktina wrote: »

one shouldnt be crusing in the outside lane ( and the other shouldnt be speeding

There was never a mention of cruising and your second post was commenting on people blocking the lane. None of them have anything to do with the OP's question as you totally forgot about the overtaking part of the question. It doesn't matter what the people that in your and my experience generally do on certain lanes.

We all know that when you overtake you move back into the lane you were.
That is the kind of assumption we have to use on questions like this but even at that it was spelled out so clearly from the outset.

The way this whole thread is going is under the false understanding that in the OP's scenario the overtaker doesn't move in. We all know that when you overtake you move back into the lane you were.

Quickest derailment I have seen outside of AH

antoobrien

ironclaw wrote: »

Question stems from an incident on the M50 last week where the driver behind me was closer than 5 feet I would say from my rear bumper at 100 km/ph in somewhat wet conditions. Pushing doesn't matter to me, I was more worried if I had to hit the brakes.

It sounds like when you moved out to the overtaking lane there was no reason not to (i.e. nobody barreling up doing 120+), so the next time it happens take their reg and ring the Garda Traffic watch line (1890 205 805).

corktina

bbk wrote: »

This all stems from your first post but come on Corktina.



There was never a mention of cruising and your second post was commenting on people blocking the lane. None of them have anything to do with the OP's question as you totally forgot about the overtaking part of the question. It doesn't matter what the people that in your and my experience generally do on certain lanes.

We all know that when you overtake you move back into the lane you were.
That is the kind of assumption we have to use on questions like this but even at that it was spelled out so clearly from the outset.

The way this whole thread is going is under the false understanding that in the OP's scenario the overtaker doesn't move in. We all know that when you overtake you move back into the lane you were.

Quickest derailment I have seen outside of AH

OP asked for an OPINION which I could only base on the info given...seems NOW he was using GPS to verify he was doing 100k exactly, so my opinion proves to be wrong....opinions have a habit of being wrong.

However it is still my OPINION that GENERALLY it is possible to overtake someone and then pull in and multiple overtakes where the speed differential is small hold up the traffic flow.

omb0wyn5ehpij9

ironclaw wrote: »

I was doing 100 km/h by GPS. I know a Speedo can be underclocked but I'd never second guess a GPS.

Seems very convenient to now mention that you were using a GPS to determine your speed, once a few people mentioned you may have been doing slightly under 100km/h due to speedo inaccuracies......

MarkoC

Most kids/lads here have no common sense

By sitting in the third line @ 100km/h, well in the first by OP opinion (seems clearly the OP needs some driving lessons as he doesnt know even which one is fiirst and which is third lane), you not going to fix the world or make it better place.

Theres a good saying:

Drive and let others to drive and let the police do theyr job !

If you feel you MUST make the world better place, go to police academy !

SilverBell

MarkoC wrote: »

By sitting in the third line @ 100km/h, well in the first by OP opinion (seems clearly the OP needs some driving lessons as he doesnt know even which one is fiirst and which is third lane), you not going to fix the world or make it better place.
!

Err......he wrote what he called lane 1 and lane 3 in his first post.........

MarkoC

SilverBell wrote: »

Err......he wrote what he called lane 1 and lane 3 in his first post.........

Lane 1 is the very left line in Ireland ! No needs to create lanes in the opposite way ... its all explained in driving schiool

bazzachazza

Just be careful to check your mirrors and monitor others speeds before changing lanes especially if you are travelling below the limit like at the speed you said 85 kmh. It's extremely annoying to have people change lane and NOT adjust to the lanes speeds and to continue at THEIR own pace.

It's becoming a growing problem to have middle lane cruisers change lane doing 75 or 80kmh and jump out in front of you sometimes without using their indicators. I had a woman in a Golf join at the mad cow and go straight to the middle lane then look in her mirror see me and dive out in front of me doing 70 kmh I was less than 10m from her rear bumper when she jumped and I had to stand on the brakes. Funny when I flashed my lights at her she got irate like she had the right of way.:mad:

I saw someone last week drive on the M50 change from middle to right lane sit in it and when their was 4 cars cruising in the middle lane they changed into the left most lane No 1 and undertake them and then move back to lane No 3 when they had undertook all 4 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why oh why ?

GTE

MarkoC wrote: »

Lane 1 is the very left line in Ireland ! No needs to create lanes in the opposite way ... its all explained in driving schiool

Sadly that is not the case everywhere. It is not explained by all instructors.

It shows up the problems, on a very basic level I admit, with the education system we have for driving.

Fair play to the OP though as he explained it his way and there is no problem in his logic as per the first post but even the fact that things like this aren't cemented in our mind like how to do basic times tables is I think indicative of bigger problems.

mcwhirter

This thread is too exciting, yawn