Single farm payment

Juniorhurler

Farmers,
Mind your maps this year and make sure they are all in your name. The rumblings are that the next review of the SFP in 2013 may be based on what you are farming in 2011 and maybe 2012. This could be just rumour, but I have heard it one step removed from a farm advisor/planner. Any mistakes could be costly every year for up to ten years.

reilig

I was talking to a dealer yesterday evening. He says that its impossible for dealers to buy cattle and turn a profit on them at the moment. He said that suck calves have risen €80 a head in the last 2 weeks. Any female suck calf that's a half continental is being bought up by over eager landowners who currently have no stock and cannot afford to buy weinlings but want to have stock on their land for 2011 so that they don't miss out on any payments. Local co-ops are selling maverick like at rates never seen before. There's a mad frenzy to buy heifer weinlings at local marts too - prices are way up on autumn prices.

So you're not the only one to hear the rumour. I wonder if its true?? I certainly welcome it and will help to keep it alive if it keeps the price of stock rising. Thank god I kept a few weinlings over the winter to sell this spring.

Juniorhurler

Ya I was trying to buy a few heifers in the mart on Saturday. Looking for limousin out of british friesian to try breed milk back into some replacements. They were available at about €700 in the fall. €850-900 for anything nice now. Hard to make money from weanlings having to pay that for maiden half dairy heifers.

BeeDI

reilig wrote: »

I was talking to a dealer yesterday evening. He says that its impossible for dealers to buy cattle and turn a profit on them at the moment. He said that suck calves have risen €80 a head in the last 2 weeks. Any female suck calf that's a half continental is being bought up by over eager landowners who currently have no stock and cannot afford to buy weinlings but want to have stock on their land for 2011 so that they don't miss out on any payments. Local co-ops are selling maverick like at rates never seen before. There's a mad frenzy to buy heifer weinlings at local marts too - prices are way up on autumn prices.

So you're not the only one to hear the rumour. I wonder if its true?? I certainly welcome it and will help to keep it alive if it keeps the price of stock rising. Thank god I kept a few weinlings over the winter to sell this spring.

I kept all my weanlings this fall, and I'm glad. Will probably go out next week or the week after.
Thing is, I was planning on keeping 5 nice heifers for replacements. With the prices heifers are making now, I might be as well off buying springers and selling the heifer weanlings.
I'm now thinking sell the heifers I have at say €750 a piece.
Buy springers at €1300 / €1400, and hopefully sell offspring in the autumn at say €750 a piece.
Might make better financial sense than waiting for my own replacements to produce something to sell, which would be fall 2012
What do ye think?

PS: Ennis mad dear today

blue5000

I thought last year was a base yr. It would make more sense as tillage area was down, dairy farmers were still in shock after 09 and beef prices lowish as well. Not complainin though as I still have weanlings to sell.

5live

What does buying stock have to do with SFP post 2013? Are we not decoupled from numbers of stock and coupled to area of land?

reilig

5live wrote: »

What does buying stock have to do with SFP post 2013? Are we not decoupled from numbers of stock and coupled to area of land?

All the talk is that its going to be recoupled with numbers of stock in order to create a fairer payment system. 30% of the financial total of the SFP is paid out to farmers who only keep the minimum amount of stock required to claim the sfp.

IMO Larry Goodman does not need the €3 million in SFP that he receives on his 500 acres of land on an annual basis.

dryan

5live wrote: »

What does buying stock have to do with SFP post 2013? Are we not decoupled from numbers of stock and coupled to area of land?

That is the question that nobody knows the answer to id say!!
Lots of speculation going on though.

This thread seems to be gathering a bit of momentum this time around.

dryan

Also, this racket of panic buying to increase stocking rates and high factory prices is just going to drive mart prices through the feckin roof for the next few months.

Roll on next september when prices are back to .95p - 1.00/lb (old money :P) - there'll be alot of sorry looking faces about!

reilig

dryan wrote: »

Also, this racket of panic buying to increase stocking rates and high factory prices is just going to drive mart prices through the feckin roof for the next few months.

Long may it continue

theaceofspies

Surely from a legal perspective the new formula for calculating SFP entitlements post 2013 will be announced in advance. This is what happened before the last reference period at the start of the noughties.

bogman_bass

Could the rumour be coming from the factories to keep stock in the country?

Tipp Man

Hmm i'll be surprised if post 2013 it is based on animal numbers

IMO it will be a set amount per acre (with different per acre rates for dairy, tillage and beef??) and then supplementary amounts based on how you are farming the land - so use less fertiliser get paid more etc

Purely my opinion though

Tipp Man

With regards to cattle prices

I think this has very little to do with possible SFP. IMO the future for drystock could be pretty good in Ireland. After all brazilian farmers were getting more in factories than Irish farmers at the back end of last year. Irish factory prices are as low as anywhere in the developed world.

I think that farming is about to embark on a golden era. A brilliant economist/author in a book my brother read is predicting that agriculture is about to boom - not just for a couple of years but for 25-50 years (with obvious ups and downs in that period)

It might not all be doom and gloom

Or I might be completly wrong and we are proper f##ked, who knows:D

5live

Tipp Man wrote: »

Hmm i'll be surprised if post 2013 it is based on animal numbers

IMO it will be a set amount per acre (with different per acre rates for dairy, tillage and beef??) and then supplementary amounts based on how you are farming the land - so use less fertiliser get paid more etc

Purely my opinion though

+1 tipp man. Based on animals, SFP would need lots of inspections whereas land based only requires satellite checks and a minimum of on the ground inspections. Dept losing loads of staff so can only barely keep up with current regime. Thank god. Still, if people want to pay foolish money to buy stock i can post my mobile number:D

Shauny2010

Were not going to get anything near what Ireland got in the last round from Europe, Ireland done very well the last time with a far higher payment rates than a lot of other countries. The poorer east European countries are looking for a fairer share of the pot.
No doubt there is going to be some sort system that guarantees that its people who are farming get paid and not the sofa farmers

whelan1

Shauny2010 wrote: »

Were not going to get anything near what Ireland got in the last round from Europe, Ireland done very well the last time with a far higher payment rates than a lot of other countries. The poorer east European countries are looking for a fairer share of the pot.
No doubt there is going to be some sort system that guarantees that its people who are farming get paid and not the sofa farmers

hope you're right ... its unreal when you look up the payment list and the local gentlemen farmers are raking it in

Curious Geroge

reilig wrote: »

All the talk is that its going to be recoupled with numbers of stock in order to create a fairer payment system. 30% of the financial total of the SFP is paid out to farmers who only keep the minimum amount of stock required to claim the sfp..

Not too sure about that, in the current SPF you dont need stock to claim to the best of my knowledge. Can't comment on the future SPF, I'm as intrigued as everyone else. Does anyone remember the rumours prior to the introduction ?

leg wax

if the dept can tell me how much my cow ****s in a year ,i cant understand why they cannot work out a payment system that pays x-amount of money at a certain stocking rate for that year so if someone is intensive he gets x-money and if not gets different rate, something like the cattle grid gradeing system. everone has maps sent in they know how many livestock units is on our farms simple. we could all look then to see which system suits our own farm . sofa farmers get 0.

pakalasa

The headage based system was crazy though, people keeping the worst of poorly fed cattle on bad land just to claim their punches (as they were called back then). A combination of land based and headage based would probably work the best.
Don't like the signals from the IFA, they seem only intent on protecting their own single payments. Most have a nice little pension there, when you think about it. Different signals completely from Macra. Lots of young farmers with little if any payments.
Everybody looking after themselves.

theaceofspies

With the current political preference for "Green" issues in Europe the new SFP will probably be along the lines of the REPS4 scheme. That seems to be the trajectory - moving away from quantity of stock and focusing on environmental issues. Don't kid yourselves, the IFA have made themselves irrelevent - they are being laughed at by the Bureaucrats in Brussels. When they shout the only one listening are their own members.

Curious Geroge

Tipp Man wrote: »

I think that farming is about to embark on a golden era. A brilliant economist/author in a book my brother read is predicting that agriculture is about to boom - not just for a couple of years but for 25-50 years (with obvious ups and downs in that period)

What's the book ?

JohnBoy

What worries me is that our current minister for agriculture seems to be singing from the same hymnsheet as the IFA.

However the comments from the commisioner, and his scottish assistant MEP seem to get stronger as time goes on that it will not be a historical model.

adne

5live wrote: »

+1 tipp man. Based on animals, SFP would need lots of inspections whereas land based only requires satellite checks and a minimum of on the ground inspections. Dept losing loads of staff so can only barely keep up with current regime.

Thought the decision came from Europe rather than Dept of Ag - Nothing to do with how well resourced the Irish Department of Ag is.....

rancher

Was at IFA agm today, our man in europe micheal treacy tells us there is no proposals on new sfp yet, someone is giving you a bum steer, he was hopeful we might even get longer than 2013 on the present system

agcons

finished cattle are 'dear' (all things are relevant) now because of scarcity, not rumours on possible shape of future SPS. Might as well bring your money to the next race meeting as gamble on 2011 stocking rates being relevant post 2013. Latest rumour is 10% reduction in Irelands gross receipt and a combination of flat rate plus headage type payment for individual farmers.

5live

adne wrote: »

Thought the decision came from Europe rather than Dept of Ag - Nothing to do with how well resourced the Irish Department of Ag is.....

Staff numbers in dept falling and are being transferred elsewhere:) eg social welfare and not being replaced:D

Tora Bora

Ah, nothing as pluckey as a cattle man when the price in the factory rises a fair bit at all. Gallops to the next mart and bids up the price of stores like there's no tomorrow. Never stops to realise as is happening now, the cost if all inputs from fertilizer to fuel, to plastic, to steel, to income levies, has gone mad.

keep going

sometimes i just wonder would we be better off with out all this payment crack(please dont ate me)
sher all im doing is paying it out in rent to x farmers

Dazzler88

keep going wrote: »

sometimes i just wonder would we be better off with out all this payment crack(please dont ate me)
sher all im doing is paying it out in rent to x farmers

Just wondering can you get SFP on rented land?

Shauny2010

Off course you can, whether that will be true in the next round of SFP 2013 who knows

funny man

as far as i know the current system is staying in place until 2015, just a bit of advice watch closely what all the big IFA men are doing ; renting land, buying cattle, etc., as they will know whats happening before we do, they were well prepared for it the last time or at least the ones i know were.

keep going

funny man wrote: »

as far as i know the current system is staying in place until 2015, just a bit of advice watch closely what all the big IFA men are doing ; renting land, buying cattle, etc., as they will know whats happening before we do, they were well prepared for it the last time or at least the ones i know were.

and dont do what i do,i never seem to score

benjydagg

I would go along with your opinion. It could not be based on animal numbers, why should lowly stocked farmers be discriminated against?
And why should someone farming over 170kg/ha be rewarded for breaching the nitrates directive?
Any one that thinks they are hard-done by armchair farmers, can go and buy entitlements for themselves!!
So called armchair farmers earned their payments by hard work and heavy borrowings in the reference years.

niallf

If Farmer X rents out a field with SFP to Farmer Y during the reference years does this mean that Farmer X might lose out on his SFP when it is recalculated in 2013? (assuming of course that the system remains decoupled from stock)

Dazzler88

benjydagg wrote: »

I would go along with your opinion. It could not be based on animal numbers, why should lowly stocked farmers be discriminated against?
And why should someone farming over 170kg/ha be rewarded for breaching the nitrates directive?
Any one that thinks they are hard-done by armchair farmers, can go and buy entitlements for themselves!!
So called armchair farmers earned their payments by hard work and heavy borrowings in the reference years.

i think you may be right but if they base it on acreage it will leave it very hard for young farmers who cant get land through renting and they wont have a chance of getting money from the banks.Back in 2003 the banks would throw money at you.

5live

niallf wrote: »

If Farmer X rents out a field with SFP to Farmer Y during the reference years does this mean that Farmer X might lose out on his SFP when it is recalculated in 2013? (assuming of course that the system remains decoupled from stock)

I wouldnt think so. The SFP will be coupled to the land and will(should?) transfer back with the land. At least that is my reading of the published proposals

benjydagg

The farmer Y is the active farmer, so my understanding is that X will lose out. But who knows.

benjydagg

I started farming in 1992. I borrowed to buy suckler quota and cows. The interest rate for 7 year money was 18.75%, and I almost had to kiss the managers butt to get it.
Today I can borrow for 4% variable, i.e. 1% above euribor. European banks will lend. Stay away from the Irish banks.

Dazzler88

benjydagg wrote: »

I started farming in 1992. I borrowed to buy suckler quota and cows. The interest rate for 7 year money was 18.75%, and I almost had to kiss the managers butt to get it.
Today I can borrow for 4% variable, i.e. 1% above euribor. European banks will lend. Stay away from the Irish banks.

What European banks have you dealt with?im looking to purchase land before the new SFP,im a first time buyer.I have 30% deposit for farm I have my eyes on but the local banks are all broke,thanks to a few local greedy developers.I havent approached them yet but a neighbour was refused last week.

benjydagg

Dazzler88 wrote: »

What European banks have you dealt with?im looking to purchase land before the new SFP,im a first time buyer.I have 30% deposit for farm I have my eyes on but the local banks are all broke,thanks to a few local greedy developers.I havent approached them yet but a neighbour was refused last week.

ACCBANK.
Don't be put off by the neighbour getting refused. I have heard of farmers being refused €20k overdraft to buy dairy cows.
Be aggresive, put a cashflow analysis together to show how you will make repayments. Include all your expenditure because the bank will want to know how you are going to pay for the holidays, or the change of car, etc.
AIB turned me down because I refused to tell them why my personal drawings were so high. They were just using that as an excuse to say no. It's not their business how much I spend on my family after repayments of my loans and tax.
I have asked for 100% loan to purchase land, plus the associated costs, stamp duty/solicitor. I want it over 20 years. I have a 12 year history with ACCBANK. I have been quoted 3% over euribor i.e. 4% variable by my manager.
I HAVE NOT HAD WRITTEN CONFIRMATION YET. But I have not bid on the land yet also.

Dazzler88

benjydagg wrote: »

ACCBANK.
Don't be put off by the neighbour getting refused. I have heard of farmers being refused €20k overdraft to buy dairy cows.
Be aggresive, put a cashflow analysis together to show how you will make repayments. Include all your expenditure because the bank will want to know how you are going to pay for the holidays, or the change of car, etc.
AIB turned me down because I refused to tell them why my personal drawings were so high. They were just using that as an excuse to say no. It's not their business how much I spend on my family after repayments of my loans and tax.
I have asked for 100% loan to purchase land, plus the associated costs, stamp duty/solicitor. I want it over 20 years. I have a 12 year history with ACCBANK. I have been quoted 3% over euribor i.e. 4% variable by my manager.
I HAVE NOT HAD WRITTEN CONFIRMATION YET. But I have not bid on the land yet also.

Thanks for that information.I thought no bank would give you 100% these days,you must have a good bit of collateral.Do you think I could have a problem because I am a first time buyer and have no collateral.

benjydagg

Dazzler88 wrote: »

Thanks for that information.I thought no bank would give you 100% these days,you must have a good bit of collateral.Do you think I could have a problem because I am a first time buyer and have no collateral.

It is not in your favour that you have no history of borrowing. I have a lot of borrowings, but I am better off now then when I had to get my mum to guarantee my first loan of €20,000. My 2nd loan was for 36k at 18.75%. The first person you need to convince is yourself. Bank managers can sense fear! If you don't believe it makes sense to borrow, then don't. Trust your instinct.
You must be certain that you can make repayments at todays rates first.
Then you need to stress the repayments by adding as much as 3% on top of today's rates, as this could happen. Then put together a 3 year cash flow based on todays input and sales figures, and the stressed repayments. If at any stage it looks too tight to live on, I would resist the temptation to borrow.
Remember, by renting land, you are allowed the cost against your profits.
Some of the most progressive farmers do not believe in having assets, long term leases suit. New Zealand for example.

pluto2

Sure the sofa farmers dont mind who gets paid as long as you pass on the SFP equivalent on to them on the rental price per acre More is just charged on the rent or lease. ......... Surely thats obvious.

Bono333

You need to be an Accountant to be a farmer these days, There is so much paper work and red tape to it now, You should nearly put your land in Forestry!!!