Careless Driving - gone to court

disneymum

Hi all,

Just wondering....

If a Careless Driving complaint goes to court, what is the general penalty imposed? Could it affect a persons ability to work due to a large number of penalty points or something? I think I may be in for some speculation here but if anyone has any real ideas of what happens I'd really appreciate the advice.

Ta, DM!

goldie fish

Depends how you got it in the first place.

Turner

As far as i know its dealt with under the general penalty Section 102 Road Traffic Act.

That is,

First offence Fine of up to 800 euro

Second offence Fine of up to 1500 euro

Third offence Fine of up to 1500 euro and 3 months imprisonment.


But thats all i remember from Templemore,

Ill send this over to legal discussion where those legal buffs might be able to advise you.

Oh and show up well dressed, apologetic (if you are guilty of the offence) and with a solicitor, and make sure you say you are currently employed.

Judges in todays climate are not really focussed on screwing any man who gets up in the morning and goes out to work to earn a few bucks.

Best of luck.

disneymum

Thanks Chief,

Thankfully it's not me! It was me who was shoved off the road and while I certainly feel a punishment is due I would hate to think my actions put another person out of work. We know all too well in this house, the pain of losing jobs and would be disgusted if I was the cause of something like that. A good hollering at the guy in question would have done me but apparently the local Inspector feels that would not be sufficient. I am due to meet with the inspector to discuss the matter over the next few days so hopefully that will shed some more light on it all.

Thanks again, DM!

1922

is it definately careless driving??

there is 3 possible charges

least serious is "driving without due care and attention"
then there is "careless driving"
and most seriously "dangerous driving"

the first mentioned there can be dealt with by way of a fine in the post and penalty points

coylemj

1922 wrote: »

is it definately careless driving??

there is 3 possible charges

least serious is "driving without due care and attention"
then there is "careless driving"
and most seriously "dangerous driving"

the first mentioned there can be dealt with by way of a fine in the post and penalty points

Wrong, 'driving without due care and attention' (Sec. 52) is what is commonly called 'Careless Driving', they are one and the same thing. The original 1961 Sec 52 was replaced with amended wording in 1968..

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1968/en/act/pub/0025/sec0050.html

You are right that Dangerous Driving (Sec. 53) is the most serious.

The least serious is Sec. 51a (added in the 68 act) which is 'A person shall not drive a vehicle in a public place without reasonable consideration for other persons using the place' but any Garda will tell you that nobody ever gets convicted for this offence.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1968/en/act/pub/0025/sec0049.html

disneymum

If it helps....the offence alleged on the summons says

"Offence Alleged:
Careless Driving Contrary to Section52(1) of the Road Traffic Act, 1961................"

coylemj

The 1968 act inserted the possibility of three months imprisonment for Careless Driving, originally (1961) an offence under Sec. 52 was dealt with under the general penalty which was a fine for the first offence and scaling up for second and subsequent offences as outlined earlier by Chief.

OP, you asked: 'what is the general penalty imposed' - there really is no 'general' penalty as it will depend on the circumstance, how silly or dangerous was the manoeuvre, was anyone put in immediate danger, was it totally crazy like overtaking someone while passing a school with children about?

1922

coylemj wrote: »

Wrong, 'driving without due care and attention' (Sec. 52) is what is commonly called 'Careless Driving', they are one and the same thing. The original 1961 Sec 52 was replaced with amended wording in 1968..

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1968/en/act/pub/0025/sec0050.html

You are right that Dangerous Driving (Sec. 53) is the most serious.

The least serious is Sec. 51a (added in the 68 act) which is 'A person shall not drive a vehicle in a public place without reasonable consideration for other persons using the place' but any Garda will tell you that nobody ever gets convicted for this offence.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1968/en/act/pub/0025/sec0049.html

wrong, people do get convicted of s51a, i've seen it.

and my definitions of the offences are as stated on the header of any summons for the said offence...you've said yourself s52 is commonly referred to as careless driving

coylemj

1922 wrote: »

there is 3 possible charges

least serious is "driving without due care and attention"
then there is "careless driving"
and most seriously "dangerous driving"

you have selective recall, you gave careless driving on two lines as separate offences when in fact 'driving without due care and attention' and 'careless driving' are one and the same thing as defined in Sec. 52.

If you are aware of convictions for 51a then I accept that. You were correct when you said there was three offences but you doubled up on Sec. 52 and left out 51a.

Monty Burnz

disneymum wrote: »

Thanks Chief,

Thankfully it's not me! It was me who was shoved off the road and while I certainly feel a punishment is due I would hate to think my actions put another person out of work. We know all too well in this house, the pain of losing jobs and would be disgusted if I was the cause of something like that.

Well if this guy lost his job then it would take someone who isn't a dangerous driver off the dole. Don't feel bad about it, it's his own fault. If he has so many points already he'll probably kill someone one day.

sdanseo

Without any malintent here, how did the OP quote directly from the summons if it wasn't here who received it?

coylemj

She says that she was 'shoved off the road' so it's likely that she received a witness summons which if I recall correctly contains details of the alleged offence.

disneymum

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Well if this guy lost his job then it would take someone who isn't a dangerous driver off the dole. Don't feel bad about it, it's his own fault. If he has so many points already he'll probably kill someone one day.

Yeah, a few have said that to me. Guess I'm just a sucker!

sdonn wrote: »

Without any malintent here, how did the OP quote directly from the summons if it wasn't here who received it?

coylemj wrote: »

She says that she was 'shoved off the road' so it's likely that she received a witness summons which if I recall correctly contains details of the alleged offence.

Correct coylemj, I received a Witness Summons. The Garda who delivered said it meant I would have to give evidence in court if called but either way I have to be there.
Absolutely dreading it all to be honest. I did a bit of research and if I'm right then this guy does use his vehicle for work purposes. I can only hope he gets a good boll***ing and that's it. Like I said before, I would hate to see someone jobless over my actions.

Thanks again folks for all the info and opinions!

DM!

Abelloid

disneymum wrote: »

Yeah, a few have said that to me. Guess I'm just a sucker!





Correct coylemj, I received a Witness Summons. The Garda who delivered said it meant I would have to give evidence in court if called but either way I have to be there.
Absolutely dreading it all to be honest. I did a bit of research and if I'm right then this guy does use his vehicle for work purposes. I can only hope he gets a good boll***ing and that's it. Like I said before, I would hate to see someone jobless over my actions.

Thanks again folks for all the info and opinions!

DM!

His own actions.

disneymum

JustinOval wrote: »

His own actions.

I know you're right, I just can't shake the guilty feeling about it. Just have to get over myself!

coylemj

In the bad old days when people were summonsed for drink driving they always had a sob story about needing their licence for the job or they had an infirm mother who would be housebound if they lost their licence etc. etc. The judges invariably let the guy off with a big fine and an endorsement and he got off without a disqualification and at the same time this country had one of the worst records for deaths on the roads.

Then the Oireachtas by legislation told the judges that the guy had to be banned so the matter was taken out of their hands. However we still have cases of dangerous and careless driving where the attitude of the OP is typical - I don't want the guy to lose his job. I can see the point but you can't ignore the fact that we have evidence every day of appalling standards of driving in this country and part of the reason is that in 99% of cases the driver idiot knows that he will get away with it.

Ask the Gardai and they'll tell you - it's virtually impossible to get a conviction for dangerous driving without either a body or a written off car or two. My mother was crossing a zebra crossing one day about twenty years ago, three witnesses said that she observed the correct protocol - stuck her foot out, waited and then started to cross. A doctor full of drink (with previous convictions for drunk driving) came around the bend at speed, hit her and sent her flying through the air, she broke her ankle in three places when she landed. Result: on the day of the court hearing his solicitor negotiated the charge down to careless driving and he kept his licence. I rest my case.

disneymum

My Father said the same thing to me...

If everyone had my attitude then the driving conditions would only worsen as all the idiots would be allowed on the road.

I was literally forced to drive into the muck/ditch (there was no hard shoulder even though it was a main road) so the idiot wouldn't crash into on-coming traffic and because there was only room for 2 cars between me and the vehicle in front. I had the kids in the car on one of the school runs, so had I lost control of the car he could have had 4 bodies on his hands so I suppose I should just let the judge make up his mind on the basis of what the Inspector says and keep my nose out of it.

coylemj

disneymum wrote: »

My Father said the same thing to me...

If everyone had my attitude then the driving conditions would only worsen as all the idiots would be allowed on the road.

I was literally forced to drive into the muck/ditch (there was no hard shoulder even though it was a main road) so the idiot wouldn't crash into on-coming traffic and because there was only room for 2 cars between me and the vehicle in front. I had the kids in the car on one of the school runs, so had I lost control of the car he could have had 4 bodies on his hands so I suppose I should just let the judge make up his mind on the basis of what the Inspector says and keep my nose out of it.

And he's only charged with Careless Driving, you've proved my point exactly.

It's only by the luck of the gods that you and your children weren't wiped out and he gets the benefit by only being charged with the lesser charge because there was nobody killed.

About a year or two ago a guy in Co.Galway was convicted of doing exactly what happened to you except he did it twice in a matter of minutes, he overtook two cars in two different manoeuvres and forced both of them off the road when he met oncoming cars. Result: the judge sent him on an anger management course and let him keep his licence.

You are right in that you should go to court, give your evidence in a matter of fact way and see what happens, please let us know the verdict.

disneymum

I'll keep ye posted alright. It's not for a couple of weeks yet. I'll keep checking back to see if there is any further info/advice/opinions!

Thanks again!

DM!

coylemj

DM, will you give us the date of the court please, I'll bump this thread (push it back to page 1) the day after so you can find it to post the result. Otherwise it will be down on page 15 and you'll never find it.

We don't need any other details, just the date of the hearing.

disneymum

Date is 28th Jan 2011

disneymum

Hello again all Legal Eagles!!

After a very entertaining morning in court my case was finally called. I was a bag of nerves but thankfully the defendant(??) didn't turn up so I didn't have to say anything. Judge lost the plot when defendants solicitor said he had to go to work for the day as money was tight, Judge said he was insulted that the defendant didn't show. The Solicitor said he pled guilty for a lesser charge and the Judge lost the plot again, saying he could not believe the arrogance of the defendant and said he was conviceted of Careless Driving, €1000 fine, 5 points. Pay within 100 days or 10 days in prison. I have never been so relieved to get out of a place. I can't imagine what I'd be like as a defendant.

Thanks again for all the advice and opinions.

DM!

al30

I have to go to court soon as well and dreading it, not got a date yet but apparently coming up soon. Husband and I were driving on a straight road and a motorcyclist pulled out in front of us from his house. He was badly injured but Guards said they could see it was not our fault and we had a witness too, but now this guy is taking us to court to get money for his injuries under the injuries board, some people saying the judge will pity him and award him something, this is so unfair, my insurance is gone up because of it (car written off and I claimed this on the insurance but his insurance company refusing to pay, say he didnt inform them he couldnt he was on life support). He's looking for hundreds of thousands but solicitor said he might get a token award

Have been worried about this for the past four years. Rang the insurance company again last week to see if anything is getting done and he said there was a meeting this week to see whose to blame, even though as he said he can see from the reports that we were not.