WIT looking to become a UNI - with Cork

rude awakening

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0117/it_colleges.html

Might happen in the future after all ?

Trotter

How would that work? Say someone wanted to do a BBS degree.. would they have to go to the campus that held that course?

You could have someone from Waterford travelling to Cork to do the BBS, and someone from Cork travelling to Waterford for a BSc.. all within the same University.

Would certain course types then be removed from Cork/Waterford, or courses be split into two centres to cater for local populations?

pocketvenus

Forget it lads if Martin gets to lead FF you can kiss goodbye to UNI for Waterford. It is heading straight for CIT.

mike65

You seem to forget that FF will not be power much longer and Waterford will have two FG TDs in the next Dail and one of them might even get a place as a junior minister (w00t!)

merlante

Disastrous idea. I'd stay well away from Cork. There is no argument for another university in Cork, and every argument for a university in the south east.

Waterford IT should club in with Carlow IT and anybody else in the south east in order to achieve this perceived "critical mass" and leave Cork IT to court Tralee IT or somewhere, which might have some interest for them. I love the way the demographics always seem to add up to something else being put in Cork. The population density of the south east and the south is the same, it's about time the south east got equal provision.

I don't even know how a merger would work anyway. There would be relentlessness infighting for the spoils, and there would never be any real cooperation. The local and regional support base of the two ITs would be alienated and undermined by such a two headed monster.

There *should* only be one further university created, and it should be in the south east, centred in Waterford. That is what the demographics and existing distribution of universities point to. Upgrading either DIT or CIT would be a joke, considering that those regions are more than adequately catered for by university provision as it is.

The fact that DIT is ahead of the IoTs coming from the old RTC sector is a moot point. There are already too many universities concentrated in the east of the country in and around Dublin. CIT has no argument at all, except that it is operating on roughly the same level as WIT. WIT has always lead the old RTC sector, despite decades of chronic underfunding, and is situated in a region that is in dire need of university facilities and inward investment.

The critical mass argument is neither here nor there. DCU reached "critical mass" fairly rapidly when Bertie bulldozed cash into the place in the 90's and 00's. It was smaller in the mid-90's than WIT is now. If an institution is given a particular designation and funding to back it up, "critical mass" can be achieved very quickly.

I realise of course that this is all politics and that every tom, dick and harry seems to feel that their institution should be upgraded. I also realise that Waterford, with the hesitant support of the south east, has never been politically strong enough to make make its superior case stick. It's long forgotten, or unremembered, that Waterford RTC was the first RTC to be upgraded in the late 90's. The rest were upgraded because of politics.

We can only hope that the recession will bring some sort of logic to the process.

dayshah

Trotter wrote: »

How would that work? Say someone wanted to do a BBS degree.. would they have to go to the campus that held that course?

You could have someone from Waterford travelling to Cork to do the BBS, and someone from Cork travelling to Waterford for a BSc.. all within the same University.

Would certain course types then be removed from Cork/Waterford, or courses be split into two centres to cater for local populations?

I agree 100%, but similar arguments can be made against a dispersed university of the south east.

If CIT wants to merge and be a university they can merge with UCC.

Trotter

dayshah wrote: »

I agree 100%, but similar arguments can be made against a dispersed university of the south east.

If CIT wants to merge and be a university they can merge with UCC.

I think theres a massive difference between commuting to Cork from Waterford/Kilkenny when you compare the same opportunities for Waterford/KK students to go to Carlow on the motorway for specific courses and vice versa.

dayshah

Trotter wrote: »

I think theres a massive difference between commuting to Cork from Waterford/Kilkenny when you compare the same opportunities for Waterford/KK students to go to Carlow on the motorway for specific courses and vice versa.

True for KK. Carlow would be similar to Cork, I don't think it would be a good daily commute.

But overall I think a single campus is the only option.

Psychedelic

I am a bit confused about all this:

The Hunt Report is not a legislative document; it is merely a set of recommendations that can be adhered to, or ignored by the Government. Isn't that what happened with the "An Bord Snip" report on cost cutting recommendations, the Government did not implement those recommendations. They also pretty much ignored the Dr Port Report and commissioned the Higher Education Strategy / Hunt Report, presumably in the hopes that it would bury our university hopes once and for all.

Fianna Fail, a party which is totally against giving university status to WIT, is not going to be in power for much longer. Fine Gael and/or Labour will be in power. Both parties say they are in favour of the University for the South East. Whether they will stay true to their word is another thing. I doubt they will to be honest, but at least we can remain somewhat hopeful.

Why are the chairman and president of WIT rushing in to talks with CIT about a technological university? What is there to be gained by these talks now, instead of waiting till the new Government is in power? Why not wait till FG/Labour are in power, and see the lay of the land then? And why are DIT similarly so eager to get in on this technological university thing? (They were talking about it before the Hunt Report was even published, which I assume means the Report was leaked to them)

I am also confused that WIT would be willing to join with CIT, considering the whole university campaign has been about a University for the South East. I would imagine that Wexford and Kilkenny would not be too happy about this, considering those counties, and Carlow to a lesser extent, have supported the USE model with WIT as the hub.

Bottom line, we should not settle for anything less that a university.

road_high

As a south east person I think this would be disasterous also. While it would obviously be good for Waterford (somewhat) it would undermine Waterford as the regional capital for the south east and leave KK, Carlow and Wexford basically high and dry.
The logical link up here is of course Carlow IT which is about half the distance and has excellent motorway,bus and rail links to Waterford.

I think this idea is frankly ridiculous as Cork already has a Uni of it's own, let alone in a very poor location, alien to the south east; another university on the outskirts of Dublin would be far more useful to any of us for godsake. I mean, the whole point of the campaign to upgrade WIT was a uni in THIS region not so Cork would have a second one!
Glad to see one of our local politicians is on the same wavelength;
http://johnpaulphelan.ie/?p=308

And bear in mind this is the same IT that kicked up a fuss when WIT was last upgraded so I really think people in the south eas should thread very carefully.

Bards

Lads the old Rebel saying comes to mind "What we have we hold, and what we don't we'll get"

It would not be a good idea for WIT & Cork IT to merge/co-operate. Cork will want all the spoils while Waterford will get the crumbs.

IF anyone is going to merge it should be WIT & the other CIT (Carlow)

merlante

What worries/bemuses me most about this, is that WIT seem to be one of the driving forces behind the idea. I can't for the life of me figure out why.

Better that WIT and CIT both lose out in the meantime and a longer struggle is continued for WIT alone than this madness is entertained.

The only way WIT should agree to this is if CIT plays a clear second fiddle -- and I really can't see CIT agreeing to that.

It really is amazing that it has come to this, that there are universities and IoTs in every other city region, but that Waterford is expected to merge it's only institution with one somewhere else to achieve jointly something less than what is available elsewhere -- and also to add to clout of another region in the process. Shame on the politicians of Waterford and the south east over the last few decades for leaving the region in such a sorry state.

pocketvenus

mike65 wrote: »

You seem to forget that FF will not be power much longer and Waterford will have two FG TDs in the next Dail and one of them might even get a place as a junior minister (w00t!)

That is true.

However I do not believe for one minute that anyone in the FG/Labour etc has any intrest in giving WIT Uni status. The talk and promise of a Uni is just playing for votes etc and even Gilmore recently backed away from his promises of a Uni for Waterford.

As per usual the Waterford TD's will have no real power up there and believe me a Uni will have been promised by FG / Labour to regions like Mayo, Sligo, Cork also.

marathont

Im fully behind the Idea of updating WIT to a Uni, but I think the southeast also needs a decent IT.

invinciblePRSTV

Like i told ye all 2 years ago, consolidation and not expansion is the name of the game in the Irish 3rd level sector. Thankfully even WITs management agrees. With the re-introduction of fees coming sooner or later and the almost certain decline in 3rd level attendance as a result, this is more the case now more then ever.

Before ye lot dismiss it completely and have a moan about what ye think Wa'furd is due consider that there have been several link-ups, UL-NUIG, TCD/UCD & The Dublin technical Uni. I'd argue that this announcement should go further and include all ITs in the SW & SE merged under 1 banner like the S&E Technical University for example. Universities with multiple campuses across huge distances are pretty common around the world also, so no point moaning about that either.

merlante wrote: »

What worries/bemuses me most about this, is that WIT seem to be one of the driving forces behind the idea. I can't for the life of me figure out why.

Because it's a good idea? tbf i imagine they'd have a better idea of whats good for WITs future then locals who have ginormous chips on their shoulder.

merlante wrote: »

Better that WIT and CIT both lose out in the meantime and a longer struggle is continued for WIT alone than this madness is entertained.

Whats the expression again? cut off your nose to spite your face....

merlante wrote: »

The only way WIT should agree to this is if CIT plays a clear second fiddle -- and I really can't see CIT agreeing to that.

What do you mean CIT should play second fiddle? why shouldn't both institutions work in an equal partnership like in the other mentioned link ups? i'm loathe to use the P word again in debates with sensitive Wa'furd folk but really your demand smacks of petty small mindedness.

Bards wrote: »

Lads the old Rebel saying comes to mind "What we have we hold, and what we don't we'll get"

It would not be a good idea for WIT & Cork IT to merge/co-operate. Cork will want all the spoils while Waterford will get the crumbs.

IF anyone is going to merge it should be WIT & the other CIT (Carlow)

Still pushing the 'Cork is the real enemy' schtick i see. Change the record already!.

merlante wrote: »

Disastrous idea. I'd stay well away from Cork. There is no argument for another university in Cork, and every argument for a university in the south east.

There's no argument for new universities, only consolidation of existing 3rd level institutions.

merlante wrote: »

Waterford IT should club in with Carlow IT and anybody else in the south east in order to achieve this perceived "critical mass" and leave Cork IT to court Tralee IT or somewhere, which might have some interest for them. I love the way the demographics always seem to add up to something else being put in Cork. The population density of the south east and the south is the same, it's about time the south east got equal provision.

Moan moan moan, heard it all before, the argument is lost.

merlante wrote: »

I don't even know how a merger would work anyway. There would be relentlessness infighting for the spoils, and there would never be any real cooperation. The local and regional support base of the two ITs would be alienated and undermined by such a two headed monster.

Things seem to work ok so far between UL-NUIG, ditto TCD-UCD, in fact they've worked very well in terms of funding allocation.

merlante wrote: »

There *should* only be one further university created, and it should be in the south east, centred in Waterford. That is what the demographics and existing distribution of universities point to. Upgrading either DIT or CIT would be a joke, considering that those regions are more than adequately catered for by university provision as it is.

merlante wrote: »

The fact that DIT is ahead of the IoTs coming from the old RTC sector is a moot point. There are already too many universities concentrated in the east of the country in and around Dublin. CIT has no argument at all, except that it is operating on roughly the same level as WIT. WIT has always lead the old RTC sector, despite decades of chronic underfunding, and is situated in a region that is in dire need of university facilities and inward investment.

You've argued that there should be a new uni using the same tired old points about demographics, regional balance etc. no one - not the DoT, not the political parties, not the Hunt report - agrees. So really there *shouldn't* be a new Uni established. Tough luck, suck it up and move on.

merlante wrote: »

The critical mass argument is neither here nor there. DCU reached "critical mass" fairly rapidly when Bertie bulldozed cash into the place in the 90's and 00's. It was smaller in the mid-90's than WIT is now. If an institution is given a particular designation and funding to back it up, "critical mass" can be achieved very quickly.

A lot of places were smaller in the mid 1990s then WIT is now, this is because free fees had yet to be introduced.

merlante wrote: »

I realise of course that this is all politics and that every tom, dick and harry seems to feel that their institution should be upgraded.

You got it in one.

mike65

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Wa'furd folk but really your demand smacks of petty small mindedness.

Still pushing the 'Cork is the real enemy' schtick i see. Change the record already!.

Moan moan moan, heard it all before, the argument is lost.

Tough luck, suck it up and move on.

You got it in one.

You're a right charmer.

coolperson05

A multi campus module has worked in many other places even here in Ireland with University of Ulster. But Cork is just too far away. If their reasoning is to just find 2 similar IT's then why not Cork IT and Limerick IT?

I do feel that WIT is not up the standard yet to be a full University as it stands. DCU got handed University status and it is still the attitude among Dubliners that DCU isn't a 'real' university. I know this from staff and students there!

WIT should merge with Tipperary Institute and maybe Carlow IT and be South East University. With intensive courses like architecture and nursing based in Waterford. And Arts maybe in Carlow, and postgraduate and Hospitality courses in Tipp (Clonmel).

WIT and CIT do too many of the same courses to be viable together. And I dont agree with this 'Technological University' Idea either. I so wish when the money was around in the 00's that we just got the outright NUIW. But we didn't, so now we need to build WIT up on its strengths along with newer, younger IT's around us.

Psychedelic

Sounds like this merger is well on the cards. From today's News & Star:

Both men revealed that WIT had held exploratory talks well before the publication of the Hunt report with a number Institutes, where a possible merger was discussed. Commenting on when the Technological University would open Mr O’Donoghue said, “he could not set a date, but they would try everything to open it as soon as possible.”

http://www.waterford-news.com/news/story/?trs=mheykfidql&cat=news

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Tough luck, suck it up and move on.

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Wa'furd

You were involved in this debate here before, under the username invincibleirish. I assume you were banned and have re-registered. You used to show up here whenever there were university status for WIT discussions. You are either a troll and/or someone who just dislikes Waterford. You're language I quoted above clearly shows you are not here for discussion.

invinciblePRSTV

mike65 wrote: »

You're a right charmer.

Thank you, anything else to add to this debate beyond your post count Mike?

Psychedelic wrote: »

You were involved in this debate here before, under the username invincibleirish. I assume you were banned and have re-registered. You used to show up here whenever there were university status for WIT discussions. You are either a troll and/or someone who just dislikes Waterford. You're language I quoted above clearly shows you are not here for discussion.

Yawn! address the points i raised and stop assuming things.

invinciblePRSTV

coolperson05 wrote: »

A multi campus module has worked in many other places even here in Ireland with University of Ulster. But Cork is just too far away. If their reasoning is to just find 2 similar IT's then why not Cork IT and Limerick IT?

Surely the whole idea of a link up to have a single 'brand' and awarding body to operate under as such, with economies of scale achieved and greater chance of achieving funding that consolidation provides as demonstrated by link-ups already.

On the issue of distance the University of Ulster is proposed to link up with LYIT, similar distance to WIT-CIT. Indeed the UL-NUIG seems to do just fine also given the distances involved.

coolperson05 wrote: »

WIT should merge with Tipperary Institute and maybe Carlow IT and be South East University. With intensive courses like architecture and nursing based in Waterford. And Arts maybe in Carlow, and postgraduate and Hospitality courses in Tipp (Clonmel).

You're coming back to the USE idea, there is already an oversupply of arts places in the state, so that'd be a needless duplication. Surely a re-emphasis on technical 3rd level provision should be the guiding light in amalgamating various ITs. Indeed i believe that this is considered the main aspect to 3rd level funding over the next decade.

coolperson05 wrote: »

WIT and CIT do too many of the same courses to be viable together. And I dont agree with this 'Technological University' Idea either. I so wish when the money was around in the 00's that we just got the outright NUIW. But we didn't, so now we need to build WIT up on its strengths along with newer, younger IT's around us.

Surely if WIT & CIT have similar courses then there is scope for greater co-operation between faculties and academic staff on research for academic and commerical purposes. This can only be advantageous for both institutions.

merlante

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Like i told ye all 2 years ago, consolidation and not expansion is the name of the game in the Irish 3rd level sector. Thankfully even WITs management agrees. With the re-introduction of fees coming sooner or later and the almost certain decline in 3rd level attendance as a result, this is more the case now more then ever.

Before ye lot dismiss it completely and have a moan about what ye think Wa'furd is due consider that there have been several link-ups, UL-NUIG, TCD/UCD & The Dublin technical Uni. I'd argue that this announcement should go further and include all ITs in the SW & SE merged under 1 banner like the S&E Technical University for example. Universities with multiple campuses across huge distances are pretty common around the world also, so no point moaning about that either.

What would you know about what's best for 3rd level education? You're only parroting something you read in the Irish Times at some point. Consolidation is the current fad, but it will end up doing more harm than good. You don't see Harvard, a university with just over 7,000 undergrads, scrambling to increase their student numbers. There is a lot to be said for having smaller, more agile, less bureaucratic institutions that are well positioned to forge alliances with local business and other organisations. But I don't expect you to deviate from the received dogma of "too many universities as it is" (a completely unproven assertion).

Consolidation and cooperation can easily occur across universities when it comes to research activities. Otherwise, having universities in well populated regions is a good idea, in order to maximise numbers of undergrads and to maintain a skilled workforce across the country. The Scandinavian countries have the same sort of population profile as Ireland and the same sort of distribution of universities. Finland has even more. These countries have some of the best education systems in the world.

I don't know of any countries off hand that share the current Irish obsession with merging third level institutions, certainly not on the scale whereby every single institution has been involved in one sort of merger speculation or another.

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Because it's a good idea? tbf i imagine they'd have a better idea of whats good for WITs future then locals who have ginormous chips on their shoulder.

You're the one with the chip on your shoulder mate.

Why don't you go away and troll somewhere else?

dayshah

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

UL-NUIG, TCD/UCD & The Dublin technical Uni.

Would it not make far more sense for UCC and CIT to merge than WIT and CIT. The other college link ups are close to one another.

@Other posters
If there is a merger between WIT and Carlow IT, how would you divide the subjects. I can't see how it wouldn't fail to weaken Waterford.

merlante

I think that anyone presenting the argument that there should be less universities rather than more -- which is not the same question as discussing the merits and flaws of a WIT upgrade -- should present some evidence for this assertion, or stick to the topic.

The OECD report in 2002, iirc., merely recommended that no new universities be created. The Port report highlighted the lack of clarity in the sector and that other universities might be created. The Hunt report speaks of the potential for technological universities. None of these reports -- and I'm sticking to those the government is happy to acknowledged here -- talk about reducing the number of universities. Although to be fair there is talk of mergers and consolidation. Hunt opens the door for the creation of new universities of technology, which is the avenue that WIT is currently pursuing.

An ex-president of DCU, Danny O'Hare, is pretty much the origin of the "too many universities" dogma. And he never backed up his assertions either in his numerous articles either, at least in the ones I read.

invinciblePRSTV

merlante wrote: »

What would you know about what's best for 3rd level education?You're only parroting something you read in the Irish Times at some point.

What would you know about what's best for Irish 3rd level education Merlante? you've taken it upon yourself to right the terrible wrong of there being no university in your locality, if it wasn't a uni, it's a motorway, if it's not a motorway then it's something else to moan about Wa'furd not having that other places have. Wearing the blue and white shirt seems to be your main priority over any kind of measured debate on reforms to Irish tertiary education.

The fact you dismiss out of hand the proposal firstly, then propose CIT take some sort of subservient role to WIT in any link up demonstrates exactly the kind of mentality you have mister, care to elaborate how this would work in practice?

merlante wrote: »

Consolidation is the current fad, but it will end up doing more harm than good. You don't see Harvard, a university with just over 7,000 undergrads, scrambling to increase their student numbers. There is a lot to be said for having smaller, more agile, less bureaucratic institutions that are well positioned to forge alliances with local business and other organisations. But I don't expect you to deviate from the received dogma of "too many universities as it is" (a completely unproven assertion).

If WIT can milk it's alumni's for serious cash like Harvard do then go ahead, but seeing as Harvard relies on private funding, and Irish 3rd level institutes rely on state funding per student, then the need to increase student numbers is more an issue here then it is for private universities in the USA.

Besides that let's be honest here, you want the hard pressed Irish taxpayer to pay for your flights of fancy, not private donations. And yes, in the Irish context there is ample evidence of there being too many institutions which cost a fortune to run and owe their continued existence to the local TDs as they do for educating people. The way forward as proposed by the Hunt Report is consolidation, everyone accepts it, so just move on?

No doubt you would gladly subscribe to the 'received dogma' if your backyard had or got a Uni, yet you can't accept it when experts, with no biases like yourself, recommend against creating another Irish university.

Remember link ups between 'local business and other organisations' can still occur with tied/amalgamated 3rd level institutions.

merlante wrote: »

Consolidation and cooperation can easily occur across universities when it comes to research activities. Otherwise, having universities in well populated regions is a good idea, in order to maximise numbers of undergrads and to maintain a skilled workforce across the country. The Scandinavian countries have the same sort of population profile as Ireland and the same sort of distribution of universities. Finland has even more. These countries have some of the best education systems in the world.

Your point is ably demonstrated by UL-NUIG & TCD-UCD, both have linked up, both have achieved funding for joint research programmes, with the proposal of a WIT/CIT link up there will be increased opportunity to compete for these kind of awards and a university, of the technical variety, will exist in downtown Waterford city. Yet you still reject it? why?

merlante wrote: »

I don't know of any countries off hand that share the current Irish obsession with merging third level institutions, certainly not on the scale whereby every single institution has been involved in one sort of merger speculation or another.

But do any other countries share the characteristics of the Irish system, namely a glut of institutions spread across thinly populated areas?

merlante wrote: »

Why don't you go away and troll somewhere else?

If i'm trolling you know where the report post button is, have a nice day:).

invinciblePRSTV

dayshah wrote: »

Would it not make far more sense for UCC and CIT to merge than WIT and CIT. The other college link ups are close to one another.

As i understand it, the Hunt report rules out mergers between Uni's & ITs, and that consolidation isn't a geographical thing but rather a pooling of expertise and developing economies of scale. But then again i read somewhere there is a proposal that UU & LYIT are merging so i don't know where that fits into the grand scheme of things.

dayshah

coolperson05 wrote: »

A multi campus module has worked in many other places even here in Ireland with University of Ulster. But Cork is just too far away.

I strongly disagree with following the University of Ulster model. UU is a fairly mediocre university, far below Queens.

The reason UU is in its current form is pure politics. During the 60s they decided to create a new university, and by far the most obvious location was Derry. But Derry was a largely nationalist city so they put it in Coleraine. They had to open another branch in Derry because Coleraine is such a poor location.

I think a case can be made for a 'virtual' university like the Open University (though I'm far from convinced).

There is some consolidation in post-graduate education. I think this is logical if you can meet your research buddy within 30 minutes, or PhD students in TCD can call to a UCD lecturer. Alone neither TCD or UCD get enough students to put on a decent PhD programme for most subjects, but together they could do this (while still competing at undergraduate and masters level). Of course there are international research projects, but I don't think thats a good argument for 'long distance' consolidation.

How many people here would be willing to give up our Business school or Engineering school to Kilkenny or Carlow? I suppose if they put some new departments in Kilkenny like history/geography we wouldn't lose out. If they put medicine somewhere else we would lose economies of scope with nursing, and if they put law somewhere else we would lose economies of scope for the legal studies course.

No, I say the best direction for WIT is to remain stand alone (it can of course still cooperate with other independent colleges) and if possible to get the old Waterford Crystal site.

Sully

Mod Warning

invinciblePRSTV; While we welcome your contributions on the forum and topic, we would ask that you please do so civilly and make your points constructive without being borderline insulting towards others and what I would see as borderline trolling the posters within.

You can disagree all you like, but your current form of shooting everyone in sight with an aggressive tone to make your point isn't appreciated.

So from this warning onwards, please bare the above in mind and change your tone when posting.

Feel free to discuss this with me over PM if you have any questions/concerns.

Everyone else; If you have a problem with a post or a poster - report it. Thats what we have a report button for. While we keep an eye on threads anyway, its always good to report it as it helps us get to problems quicker and get an idea what the feelings of the users are in relation to a certain problem.

So please, lets not derail this topic any further and keep on the original point at hand - constructively, civilly and without the need to be calling each other trolls.

Cheers.

Bards

Sully wrote: »

Mod Warning

invinciblePRSTV; While we welcome your contributions on the forum and topic, we would ask that you please do so civilly and make your points constructive without being borderline insulting towards others and what I would see as borderline trolling the posters within.

You can disagree all you like, but your current form of shooting everyone in sight with an aggressive tone to make your point isn't appreciated.

So from this warning onwards, please bare the above in mind and change your tone when posting.

Feel free to discuss this with me over PM if you have any questions/concerns.

Everyone else; If you have a problem with a post or a poster - report it. Thats what we have a report button for. While we keep an eye on threads anyway, its always good to report it as it helps us get to problems quicker and get an idea what the feelings of the users are in relation to a certain problem.

So please, lets not derail this topic any further and keep on the original point at hand - constructively, civilly and without the need to be calling each other trolls.

Cheers.

Can I also add to this that invinciblePRSTV spells Waterford correctly as it is very insulting to be called Wa'furd the whole time in a Forum specifically about Waterford City - unless he is Trolling and looking for a rise:rolleyes:

Bards

Looks like one for everybody in the audience - and we'll be back to where we started
=========================================
http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/institutes-of-technology-in-bid-for-university-status-142471.html

Institutes of technology in bid for university status
By Niall Murray and Anne Lucey

Wednesday, January 19, 2011

THE institutes of technology in Limerick and Carlow could be moving towards a technological university application after signing a collaboration deal.

The idea of a technological university sector was proposed in last week’s report of the group chaired by economist Colin Hunt on a 20-year strategy for higher education.

But, as reported by the Irish Examiner last week, a number of technology institutes have already been in talks about joining forces under the new structure.

The four technology institutes in Dublin have already said they may seek technological university status together, while another partnership between the institutes in Cork (CIT), Waterford (WIT) and Kerry (IT Tralee) is also under discussion.

Limerick Institute of Technology (LIT) and Institute of Technology Carlow (ITC) have agreed further collaborations on courses, research, attracting overseas students and other areas.

Their statement announcing the Trans-Ireland Higher Education Alliance said both colleges will continue to take part in consultation and action to identify further potential for co-operative initiatives across the academic, administrative and support of each institution.

The two colleges operate campuses, not just in Limerick and Carlow but also in Clare, Tipperary, Wexford and Wicklow and have more than 12,000 full-time and part-time students between them.

Other immediate areas of collaboration will include academic portfolio development, lifelong learning and staff development.

The prospective partnership between technology institutes in the southern region could meet the requirements of WIT and CIT for university and technological university status. They had both made applications to Government for redesignation before the Hunt group began its deliberations in 2009.

IT Tralee president Michael Carmody said the attainment of a university for Kerry has been a long-term objective and the engagement with CIT and WIT is a welcome development in helping to achieve this goal and university designation would enhance international opportunities, including student recruitment and research.

Speak Now

dayshah wrote: »

@Other posters
If there is a merger between WIT and Carlow IT, how would you divide the subjects. I can't see how it wouldn't fail to weaken Waterford.

I assume Universities offer alot more courses than IT's so i dont think it'll be weakening Waterford.

merlante

All this merging is pure madness. Even if the various bureaucracies involved in any given merger were fully and properly consolidated -- which would be extremely unlikely within a 10 year period given the unsackability of public servants, intransigence, etc. -- it's still really hard to imagine a retrospective multi-campus model working.

One university per region of a half million people is all that the country requires. This is in line with other small, sparsely populated countries, such as Finland and Sweden. The IoTs are useful institutions in their own right.

It is crazy to see that the university campaign in Waterford has triggered a series of reports that could lead to almost any reconfiguration of existing institutions possible *except* a straight forward upgrade of the WIT. Only in Ireland.

It is also regrettable to see that WIT seems set on alienating the other IoTs in the south east by throwing their lot in with Cork, to the point where Carlow want to merge with Limerick. This is pure madness. It is not a case of cutting your nose to spite your face -- just common sense -- to say that it would be better that no new universities be created at all, than universities be created out of these frankenstein's monsters.

If they are going to create universities of technology, then straight upgrades of WIT, DIT and CIT are obvious candidates. It only makes sense to upgrade WIT, though, when you take the regional and national needs into account. If you believe in any kind of a social contract, then you belief that citizens tolerate governments because they are granted equal rights, and the people of the south east do not have equal access to university education compared with all other city regions of similar (or in some cases less) population.