Reloading

linuxman52000

Hi Folks again,
I know i'm really setting the cat among the pigeons with this question, but here goes.
Several of my older shooting buddies tell me that once upon a time there was a gun shop in Dublin where you could buy powder & primers. Does anybody here know of such a shop? These guys are not old enough to have been around before the Firearms act of 1925 ? came into force. Despite a lot of research, I can't see where or how it has become illegal to buy powder or primers in this country according to any changes made to the act since 1925!.
Also, with the new EU Directive which was accepted by our Dept. of Justice around Sept. last, ammunition is defined as the complete round & the 4 components, ie head, case, primer & propellant. Note here that the EU Directive defines the powder correctly as a propellant & not an explosive powder such as Black Powder!. Therefore, is it not reasonable to assume that in my case, since i'm licensed to have 500 rnds of 0.270" ammunition, i'm also licensed to have the equiv. amount of propellant ( approx. 3.5 lbs) & primers ?
I'd be interested in hearing any views on this subject.

Cheers,

Pat.

Sparks

EU law on firearms has always stated fairly explicitly that it does not aim to trump national law; so if the EU says you can have 40mm grenade launchers, the government isn't acting against EU law by saying you can't. That's why you can have a pistol ban in the UK without breaking EU directives.

As to the gun shop, never heard of anywhere like that.

Cass

Powder/primers, etc can only be held and used under strict licensing from the DOJ.

You have a license for 500 rounds of .270 ammo. Thats allows you to own, possess and use the ammo. The rounds are the complete items as in all four components sold as a whole. The very minute you break the round into its four individual components you are now in possession of explosives. I know the powder used is actually propellant however under Irish law they are classed the same as black powder - ie. Explosives.

So to possess the propellant used in the rounds you have to have a seperate license issued by the DOJ. These licenses simply are not being issued, and therefore you cannot have or store the propellant. The new explosives Act is currently being reviewed and updated and the propellant and black powder will be covered under this act. Until it is issued the act of reloading stands "stalled". The only exception being the Pilot reloading scheme currently being run in the MNSCI.

That would be my understanding of it.

deerhunter1

Ezridax wrote: »

Powder/primers, etc can only be held and used under strict licensing from the DOJ.

You have a license for 500 rounds of .270 ammo. Thats allows you to own, possess and use the bullets. The bullets are the complete item as in all four components sold as a whole. The very minute you break the bullet into its four individual components you are now in possession of explosives. I know the powder used is actually propellant however under Irish law they are classed the same as black powder - ie. Explosives.

So to possess the propellant used in bullets you have a seperate license issued by the DOJ. These licenses simply are not being issued, and therefore you cannot have or store the propellant. The new explosives Act is currently being reviewed and updated and the propellant and black powder will be covered under this act. Until it is issued the act of reloading stands "stalled". The only exception being the Pilot reloading scheme currently being run in the MNSCI.

That would be my understanding of it.

The Bullet is only the Head (The Projectile that leaves the firearm through the barrel) A round is the complete item i.e bullet,casing,primer,powder etc.

Grizzly 45

Your gunshop that sold the stuff,might have been Watts Bros down on Ormond Quay.[ long gone] or Garnett &Keegans on Bridge street? near Dame st [gone as well]. I remember as a young fellah up on the trips to "de big city" going to both of them and seeing reloading equipment for sale in both.So that would be in the 80s.;) Would that fit??

That's why you can have a pistol ban in the UK without breaking EU directives.

It could also be challanged when somone gets enough bobs together[like a million or two] on the grounds of discrimination within the EU,on the grounds of why should Mr Smith be prevented from owning a certain type of firearm on the UK mainland ,when Mr O Smyth in NI can own one, or Herr Schmitt can own one??No doubt if it was won ,they would pull a typical Govt stunt like the illegal VRT on cars here.:( Call the ban somthing else.

Sparks

It'd be damn hard to bring a case like that Grizzly; the EU directives contain phrases like:

This Directive is without prejudice to the application of national provisions concerning the carrying of weapons, hunting or target shooting.

Member States may adopt in their legislation provisions which are more stringent than those provided for in this Directive, subject to the rights conferred on residents of the Member States by Article 12 (2).

Article 12(2) wrote:

this derogation shall not apply to journeys to a Member State which prohibits the acquisition and possession of the firearm in question or which, pursuant to Article 8 (3), makes it subject to authorization; in that case, an express statement to that effect shall be entered on the European firearms pass.

blackpowder

does anyone have any idea where does the problem lie with pyrodex/blackpowder with the irish goverment like i could understand in the troubles there was a real need for for substantences like this being very heavily controlled, but in ireland today what would the primary concern be with blackpowder/pyrodex with the gardai and dept of justice ???? i,d love to hear some ideas thanx a million

Grizzly 45

blackpowder wrote: »

does anyone have any idea where does the problem lie with pyrodex/blackpowder with the irish goverment like i could understand in the troubles there was a real need for for substantences like this being very heavily controlled, but in ireland today what would the primary concern be with blackpowder/pyrodex with the gardai and dept of justice ???? i,d love to hear some ideas thanx a million

:rolleyes:Pretty simple really...Paranoia and a distinct lack of trust of sucessive govts in the citzenry of Ireland.Which in some cases is unfortunatly entirely justified.
There seems to be a never ending supply of fukwitts and mentally defective idiots in Irish society who abuse anything that might be considerd dangerous,and thereby get them banned or heavily restricted from responsible people ever being able to use them in a safe manner. So many marvelous things that are legal everywhere else are illegal here..
There have been cases of our happy feuding fammilies AKA drug dealing criminal gangs making pipe bombs or as it is put offically "viable explosive devices" using BP,and homebrew explosives.Wether it was shooting BP or the stuff scraped out of a load of firecrackers is not known.

However it was black powder which is an explosiveI]true[/I,therefore it must be dangerousI]true[/I.Which means no "mere civillian" would know how to use this safely[Yet they can muck about with an explosive 10 times more unstable and powerful than BP anyday,store it and be totally cavlier in its handling..Called petrol Not to mind there are thousands of people who shoot BP guns safely worldwide ,and would never think of making up a grenade to attack their country or neighbours] And anyone who would want it must be up to no good.So prevent it falling int civillian hands.
Pryodex and other propellants...well,they COULD be misused[Our elected ones and lawmakers are big into preventative legislation here.:rolleyes::rolleyes:] So treat it as an explosive as well.

blackpowder

EXCELLENT ANSWER GRIZZLY HOW SOON DO U THINK IT WILL TAKE TO CHANGE THE LAW THAT BE. A NEW GOVERMENT ? A ANOTHER MINISTER OF JUSTICE? MAYBE THE NEW GARDAI COMMISIONER? THE CREEDMORE CUP PILOT SCHEME? IT TAKES AN SUCH A LONG TIME IN THIS COUNTRY TO DO ANY THING I WAS LOOKING AT OLD POSTS FROM BOARDS .IE GOING BACK TO 2007 ON SHOOTING/HUNTING I SEEN POSTS JUST LIKE THE ONES NOW ON MUZZLELOADING /RELOADING THE SAME QUESTIONS AND THE SAME ANSWERS TO BE HONEST SENSE THEN LITTLE HAS CHANGED ,DO YOU THINK THE INTEREST IS JUST NOT IN IRELAND TO LOBBY THE DEPT.? OR MUZZLELOADING WOULD NOT CATCH ON AS A POPULAR FORM OF SHOOTING I,M VERY PREPLEXED PRESONALLY DO YOU KNOW OF ANY BODY THAT LOBBYS FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ON BEHALF OF THIS FINE SPORT ? I CAME ON BOARDS .IE TO FIND OUT WAS THERE ANYONE IN THE COUNTY DOING A SPOT OF MUZZLELOADING I DONT THINK THERE IS SO FAR I HAVE NOT COME ACROSS ANYONE .THERES NO SITES ON LINE OR NOTHING IN IRELAND THAT EVEN MENTIONS A CLUB ALAS THERE IS PLENTY IN N.IRELAND ALL THE BEST GRIZZLY STU

Sparks

blackpowder, would you mind not shouting please?

And somehow, given all the fun in the news right now, I don't think we're going to see a new explosives Act in the immediate future (or much else from any department for that matter); it's not on the list of things the government want to do before the next general election. Which could be a blessing in disguise as a more sympathetic Minister could be in office when it comes up...

And yes, it takes time. Go back past 2007 to around 2004 when we first started on this site, and you'll see similar themes coming up then to today. It's why you have to play the long game when working on legislation; it's a long process to shepard something through, and there are very few shortcuts

And the Department has been lobbied, by the way, by the NRAI with reasonable success (that's where the Creedmoor Cup pilot scheme came from). If that works, and I've a fair amount of confidence in those lads, then it looks quite good for reloading in Ireland in the future; just not next week.

For now though, no, there's noone muzzleloading - because without propellant, you can't muzzleload; it's currently damn near impossible just to apply for a licence to import and store propellant (and if you managed, you'll be turned down at the moment), so the sport can't get going. Once that changes, I'd say we'd see a pretty sharp take-up from various places, as it's very appealing to quite a lot of people.

Grizzly 45

Sparks pretty much answerd everything there BP.
I just wish I could be as optimistic betimes.:)

I really DO hope that the Creedmore match will be the foothold into getting reloading and hopefully BP going in the Republic.However,I think it will be a loooong way to go before we see ourselves comfortably ensconsed in our homes reloading whatever calibres to our hearts content.

Knowing the intense paranoia/dislike in both Gardai/DOJ of the average Irish citizen owning anything that might usurp the power of the State IE firearms,not to mind having access to technically" explosives" which "could"[Remember the thing about being preventative in legislation:rolleyes:] be filtered off for illegal uses.
They will do their utmost to obfusticate,delay,stall any such legislation that might be of benefit to the law abiding.If it does come through,I personally think there will be so much red tape,conditions,pre conditions,structural demands and high fees involved that it will be proably easier to store and use gelignite than smokeless or BP.

All you have to do is look at the fiasco of our recent firearms laws regarding handguns for a fine example of this.

So I do hope it comes in,but unless we actually get a Minister for Justice who actually shoots and knows a butt from a barrel and will say"bollix"to our firearms laws and see about reworking them,Sparks is 100% right, it is a long way off.

meathshooter1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Your gunshop that sold the stuff,might have been Watts Bros down on Ormond Quay.[ long gone] or Garnett &Keegans on Bridge street? near Dame st [gone as well]. I remember as a young fellah up on the trips to "de big city" going to both of them and seeing reloading equipment for sale in both.So that would be in the 80s.;) Would that fit??

garnett & keegans was on parliment st:D just over capel st bridge.remember as a kid seeing a purdy I think side by side 8000punts at the time the price of a house back then.to get back on topic as far as I remember they made there own brand of ammo.watts on ormond quay was another used to drop into tony with the father great banter, these would have been the main two shops in the 70s 80s dublin, I do bump into a chap who worked in keegans now and again he opened a fishing shop in clane as far as I know.

Grizzly 45

[

garnett & keegans was on parliment st:D just over capel st bridge.remember as a kid seeing a purdy I think side by side 8000punts at the time the price of a house back then

.

MS can you remember be any chance was that Purdy a single or matched set?? If it was a single and around 1987 or 88 that you saw it,which would have been around the time G&K closed down in around those years.
I have an intresting story to tell about that Purdy. If it is the same gun ,I knew who owned it and I would have actually shot it numerous times ,as a young fellah learning to clay shoot.:cool:

meathshooter1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

[

.

MS can you remember be any chance was that Purdy a single or matched set?? If it was a single and around 1987 or 88 that you saw it,which would have been around the time G&K closed down in around those years.
I have an intresting story to tell about that Purdy. If it is the same gun ,I knew who owned it and I would have actually shot it numerous times ,as a young fellah learning to clay shoot.:cool:

cant remember the exact year but wouldn't be far off . It was on its own in a big wood & glass display case right down the back was only a kid at the time.remember staring at awe at it, beautiful real craftsmanship,the lads in the shop saw me staring that's how we found out the price I said to my da can we get that and he broke his heart laughing joking saying we take two(I wish).great shop sad to see it and watts closed

hrcbob

Should have lobbied the green party on the grounds of the "Reduce,Reuse, Recycle" plan .. All those expensive brass cases and empty shotgun shells goin to waste when we could be reloading and re using them..

Grizzly 45

Small world MS. Thats the last time I saw it as well,as it was the last time I was in G&K before it closed down.

Story is it belonged to a Mr Davidson,who has now left this world many years ago.He was one of the last true "gentleman shooters " of the real old school,plus twos ,jacket shirt and tie irrespective of the shooting season and a total chacter.He was 14 when the war of independance was on,and he had an idea to fight for Irish freedom locally by single handly digging up a local boreen to ambush the local RIC patrol.He managed to catch the local milkman and cart in his bear pit.:eek::D
Ending up in the LDF or Army [cant remember which] He was in charge of a section defending Dollymount strand against German invasion.His platoon were armed with four American p14s and the wrong .303 ammo.He said the rounds had to be slammed with the bolts into the chamber,and he personally had two 9mm Luger pistols in his back pockets.The rest of the section were armed withpick handles and pikes!:eek::eek::eek:

He was asked to repersent Ireland at the Olympics at Mexico in 1964,but was prohibited from going by his wife who taught his health wasnt going to be up to the high altitude of Mexico city. He was a neighbour of ours,and I only really got to know him when I was about 14 and he met me at a local flapper shoot ,breaking clays with a single shot .410.Or trying to.:o.
He took me under his wing so to speak over the years and taught me when he had the time the art of clay shooting,and wildfowling.His sister lived with him and they had on average four Irish red setters at any time which we took out hunting.Although he disapproved of pumps and semis he never critiqued my choice ,as his mind was if you shoot well with it and just use the two per bird ,no matter how many you have up there in it .Thats fine!Its only coming out the one barrel.He always said,that I shot well with the Purdy,and if I wanted it he would pass it on to me when he retired or would see that I got a first shout on it,as he had no one else to pass it on to in his family,and they never had kids of their own.

What with growing up and school,I ldidnt see as much of him for awhile,as they commuted between Dublin and Clare alot.I onlly realised that somthing was seriously wrong when I was in G&K as I was studying in Dublin at the time and was in with the Mot showing her the sights,when I saw the Purdy,I knew somthing was seriously wrong.It must have been in the final days of G&K as they said to me five grand cash would get it.Might as well have said five million to me.I tried everything to raise the money,begged ,pleaded with parents,tried to sell my car[a joke that was] anything to get the bobs together.
To no avail.When I got back to Dublin G&K shutters were down,and the Purdy was gone forever.:(
Turned out he had taken seriously ill and died soon after in Dublin,and had obviously not said anything to his wife or sister about his promise.:(:(

God grant he have a eternally good days sport in the happy hunting grounds.
I think often of him when I am down at my local flight pond.

I wonder who the lucky sod was that got it in the end.They are on a nice little gun thats worth a good few bobs now.

Well thats the story now of how I almost owned a Purdy.;):)
Grizz

blackpowder

a heart warming story grizzley:o

It wasn't me!

That's a great story Grizzly, lovely to hear of things like that.

meathshooter1

Great story would have giving my left nut at the time for it:D.it was one well looked after gun.great to hear the history of it makes me still feel young,24 years later its stands out in my mind,wonder what ever happend to it Im sure its still there somewhere built to last probally went to england for auction.If I bump into the fella who worked in G&k I will ask him.it would be worth some money today NAMA probaly have it now:D