Will You Remember?

[Jackass]

Well, will you?

We've had CJ Haughey lining his pockets and dining out on the tax payer the last time we were near bankrupt, and he took a lot of money through corruption.

Teflon Bertie just about got away with doing the same and got out in time.

Now Cowen has been sorting out the boys before the big fall of the country.

They have no interest in the nation. "Economic Treason" is a good description of it. Another, is traitor to the Irish people. And most, if not all, senior FF politicians have been involved in some level for the last number of decades.

The whole bust scenario came from greed and corruption in the first place, with zoning for contractors and backhanders and getting into bed with bankers.

As a party, FF have proven time and time again, that they are nothing but a party of corrupt criminals who have been taking the Irish people for a ride this whole time and have this staunch core support that allows them almost invinsibility during the good times to do whatever they want, and the corruption runs rife. It's endemic of the party.

So, when FF are ousted, and FG / Labour come in AGAIN to clean up the mess left behind by FF, and when tough decisions are made to try and get the country back on track, and when it doesn't happen over night, and when the next general election comes around and we're still not out of the water, will you remember how we got here this time? Will you remember FF bringing us to our kness yet again? Will you remember how they're all sitting cozy in their homes with their pensions getting out in their droves before the IMF come in and make the cuts, and will you remember that time and time again, ALL FF have ever done in power is be corrupt and run the country into the ground.

So, what will it take for people to decide to never vote for them again?

You've never remembered before, will you remember your disgust and rage this time?

I just have a feeling that we'll have another clean up Government and FF will play the charm offensive in opposition and who better to know where all the fu*k ups are and will be harrassing the Government for not fixing everything perfectly and immediately, from the sh*t storm they created, and everyone will love it and think FF have all the answers again and will vote them back in after a one term coalition Government.

I just want to make this post to see if anybody will remember. And so I can quote it when it happens in the future.

I'm now permanently living away from Ireland, 3,000 miles away. I will never be able to come home and live in Ireland as there will be nothing to come home to for some time and I've no choice but to start life all over again here. In my mid-20's, I'm sure I'll have settled by the time things are good again in Ireland, if they ever are, and I can't even afford to go home and meet my first niece. So I don't think I'll ever have any problem remembering the very real and life changing devistation they've inflicted on us all, will you?

Liam Byrne

Some of us will certainly remember, OP - we've actually been remembering since the time of Haughey and voted accordingly, but were unfortunately over-ruled by others.

Others, unfortunately - including Cowen himself yesterday - can't even bring themselves to admit FF's massive contributory role in all this.

Best of luck in the new life, and hope it's somewhere fair and ethical.

Devilman40k

Oh I will most definitely remember... some say it'll be 10 years before they will have a chance to get back. I have news for those prophets, my 5 year old daughter has, through no prompting of mine said "Brian Cowen and his friends will take all my money and put it in a broken bank!" and its 13 years before she gets the chance to vote!!

the groutch

Devilman40k wrote: »

some say it'll be 10 years before they will have a chance to get back.

I don't think they will even have that chance. They are too dependent on the grey vote, which father time will decrease further and further

JustinDee

[Jackass] wrote: »

I'm now permanently living away from Ireland, 3,000 miles away. I will never be able to come home and live in Ireland as there will be nothing to come home to for some time and I've no choice but to start life all over again here. In my mid-20's, I'm sure I'll have settled by the time things are good again in Ireland, if they ever are, and I can't even afford to go home and meet my first niece. So I don't think I'll ever have any problem remembering the very real and life changing devistation they've inflicted on us all, will you?

You'd swear you were kicked out of the country or or were forced to become a refugee!

There isn't "nothing out there".
For example from my end, my father is 63 yrs old. Lost his job in a store last year. Three months later applied for a job in a similar store other side of the river, and with no pull or contacts, got it.
I'll always remember what has happened here politically. I also know what part I played with my own vote.

Lived abroad myself from around 1991 (after university) until I returned to Ireland in 2005 for family reasons. Lived in London, Greece, Israel, Australia and Norway and visited many other places.
Relax. Enjoy Canada.

catbear

JustinDee wrote: »

There isn't "nothing out there".
For example from my end, my father is 63 yrs old. Lost his job in a store last year. Three months later applied for a job in a similar store other side of the river, and with no pull or contacts, got it.

Congrats to your dad but his good fortune but don't scoff at the 15% unemployed and the many without any income who aren't entitled to any benefit. Emigrants are trying to do the best for their families, including the ones they leave behind. For a long period of time whole parts of the country were kept ticking over by money sent from abroad. I'm actually really disappointed by your post.

JustinDee

catbear wrote: »

Congrats to your dad but his good fortune but don't scoff at the 15% unemployed and the many without any income who aren't entitled to any benefit. Emigrants are trying to do the best for their families, including the ones they leave behind. For a long period of time whole parts of the country were kept ticking over by money sent from abroad. I'm actually really disappointed by your post.

This isn't some self-righteous conservative voter telling people who can't find work that they're being lazy or too choosy. I know there is a high level of unemployment in Ireland and I'm most certainly not sticking up for the incumbents in govt buildings.
I am tiring however of rhetoric from people who move away as if they have been run from their home with no choice.
Sorry if that disappoints.

hallelujajordan

[Jackass] wrote: »

Well, will you?

We've had CJ Haughey lining his pockets and dining out on the tax payer the last time we were near bankrupt, and he took a lot of money through corruption.

Teflon Bertie just about got away with doing the same and got out in time.

Now Cowen has been sorting out the boys before the big fall of the country.

They have no interest in the nation. "Economic Treason" is a good description of it. Another, is traitor to the Irish people. And most, if not all, senior FF politicians have been involved in some level for the last number of decades.

The whole bust scenario came from greed and corruption in the first place, with zoning for contractors and backhanders and getting into bed with bankers.

As a party, FF have proven time and time again, that they are nothing but a party of corrupt criminals who have been taking the Irish people for a ride this whole time and have this staunch core support that allows them almost invinsibility during the good times to do whatever they want, and the corruption runs rife. It's endemic of the party.

So, when FF are ousted, and FG / Labour come in AGAIN to clean up the mess left behind by FF, and when tough decisions are made to try and get the country back on track, and when it doesn't happen over night, and when the next general election comes around and we're still not out of the water, will you remember how we got here this time? Will you remember FF bringing us to our kness yet again? Will you remember how they're all sitting cozy in their homes with their pensions getting out in their droves before the IMF come in and make the cuts, and will you remember that time and time again, ALL FF have ever done in power is be corrupt and run the country into the ground.

So, what will it take for people to decide to never vote for them again?

You've never remembered before, will you remember your disgust and rage this time?

I just have a feeling that we'll have another clean up Government and FF will play the charm offensive in opposition and who better to know where all the fu*k ups are and will be harrassing the Government for not fixing everything perfectly and immediately, from the sh*t storm they created, and everyone will love it and think FF have all the answers again and will vote them back in after a one term coalition Government.

I just want to make this post to see if anybody will remember. And so I can quote it when it happens in the future.

I'm now permanently living away from Ireland, 3,000 miles away. I will never be able to come home and live in Ireland as there will be nothing to come home to for some time and I've no choice but to start life all over again here. In my mid-20's, I'm sure I'll have settled by the time things are good again in Ireland, if they ever are, and I can't even afford to go home and meet my first niece. So I don't think I'll ever have any problem remembering the very real and life changing devistation they've inflicted on us all, will you?

You are right about the bust coming from the property market and you are right that dodgy zoning decisions brought about by corrupt politicians played a heavy role in this but you are wrong to hold FF 100% responsible. Zoning decisions are made at county council level, not at government level and in the 80's,90's,00's corruption within the county councils was rife - right across the political spectrum. . .

You are also wrong to blame the government for the fact that you had to move away . . I don't know your personal circumstances and while I am not blaming the world recession for our Irish problems I do think that it is foolhardy to believe that we could have escaped untouched in unemployment terms following the world recession . . regardless of who had been in government.

I also had to emigrate in the past . . in 1996, to the UK . . and I don't hold the government responsible for that . . nor do I credit them with enabling my return in 2000.

catbear

JustinDee wrote: »

I am tiring however of rhetoric from people who move away as if they have been run from their home with no choice.

Some people have to leave this country for economic and you're tired of listening to them, I bet you have little time for people who get sick through no fault of their own.

CrankyCod

I have no time for Fianna Fail or the gombeen culture they represent, but I think it's important that we don't allow myths to become the accepted truth about what happened in the last few years.

[Jackass] wrote: »

We've had CJ Haughey lining his pockets and dining out on the tax payer the last time we were near bankrupt, and he took a lot of money through corruption.

I'm not sure that that is true: CJ took donations from rich business people but I've seen no evidence that that led to corrupt decisions. It seemed to me that he felt it was his due, and to expect nothing in return. In any case I think people made a balanced decision to continue supporting him as he was considered imaginative and competent, like an Irish Mitterand; flawed but charismatic.

Teflon Bertie just about got away with doing the same and got out in time.

I think Bertie's case is much more clear cut and serious, and I found it incredible that my former neighbours in Northside Dublin continued to vote for him.

Cowen has been sorting out the boys before the big fall of the country.

I honestly don't think there will be any evidence of corruption against Cowen; his problem is that he was told too often that he was a 'bright boy' and he just, well, isn't. He was elected during a time when we rewarded affable, harmless chaps who had a political pedigree and he just doesn't have the intellectual firepower for the Taoiseach's role as it has evolved in response to the crisis.

They have no interest in the nation. "Economic Treason" is a good description of it. Another, is traitor to the Irish people. And most, if not all, senior FF politicians have been involved in some level for the last number of decades.

I totally agree; but they were voted in, repeatedly, they didn't sail up the Liffey in a longboat. I honestly believe that, up to this year, they represented the real beliefs of the Irish people, as distinct from what people like to think they believe or will tell pollsters. Respect for the cute hoor, the fixer, the big man. Queues are for other people. The inalienable right to a 6bedroom house on top of the Hill of Tara, with a gold plated SUV outside. Respect for education, contempt for learning or wisdom.

Hopefully we've changed. (By we I mean the majority of people, not all)

The whole bust scenario came from greed and corruption in the first place, with zoning for contractors and backhanders and getting into bed with bankers.

That was part of it but doesn't explain the mass hysteria about getting on the property ladder; that was caused by our materialism and peasant awe at ostentation. Remember the weddings!

So, what will it take for people to decide to never vote for them again?

It will require that people with a brain AND principles stay interested in politics and make sure the latent tribalism that underlies everything in this country is not allowed to take over again.

It means that Irish people for the first time will have to start respecting the law, and following proper procedures for getting "entitlements" and accept a standard of living matched to ones's merit and job. Not easy for people used to using the inside track, and certainly not easy for their enablers.

Crucially however it will take courage to stand up to your friends and challenge the old ways of thinking. I think this is our biggest flaw; the need to not rock the boat, the fatal Irish need to be liked.

whydoibother?

I think you make a good point about remebering. I looked up Brian Cowens wiki last night out of curiosity (ok not 100% accurate all of the time) but according to that this is the third vote of no confidence. Of the previous two I'd forgotten one completely and had only a vague recollection of the other and I would consider them to be fairly significant events. We are so bombarded with news, it's almost impossible to remember everything, but I take the point that we should remember the major stuff.

catbear

All I remember about the last election is that it seemed to be about which one you'd prefer to have a pint with, Bertie or Enda.
Indeed we've entered a new ere.

JustinDee

catbear wrote: »

Some people have to leave this country for economic and you're tired of listening to them, I bet you have little time for people who get sick through no fault of their own.

That's a silly thing to say. Don't speculate on how I think. If you even knew a little about me, you certainly wouldn't post something as off as that.
Moving to a prosperous country is hardly the end of the world and compared to other migration waves (such as with what remained of my mother's family in 1944 or the North in late 60s for example), there is the luxury of choice.

catbear

People leave who don't want to leave, they have familial commitments that if they had the choice they would be able to fulfill. Have you out of necessity had to leave family and friends? If you had you might have more time for the people you say you don't like hearing from.

JustinDee

catbear wrote: »

People leave who don't want to leave, they have familial commitments that if they had the choice they would be able to fulfill. Have you out of necessity had to leave family and friends? If you had you might have more time for the people you say you don't like hearing from.

Well yes, I have. Still had a choice and didn't exactly move to a warzone either. The survivors of my mother's family didn't have this luxury.
How is someone forced to move to another country these days? They're not. They take a choice to do so.







.

the groutch

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I also had to emigrate in the past . . in 1996, to the UK . . and I don't hold the government responsible for that . . nor do I credit them with enabling my return in 2000.

you HAD to, or you chose to becuase the cushy job to had gone to college for wasn't waiting for you on a silver platter?

people keep on making it sound like they are/were being deported

hallelujajordan

the groutch wrote: »

you HAD to, or you chose to becuase the cushy job to had gone to college for wasn't waiting for you on a silver platter?

people keep on making it sound like they are/were being deported

Good point, I chose to, based on my own personal desire to achieve and the state of the Irish job market at the time.

loldog

CrankyCod wrote: »

I totally agree; but they were voted in, repeatedly, they didn't sail up the Liffey in a longboat. I honestly believe that, up to this year, they represented the real beliefs of the Irish people, as distinct from what people like to think they believe or will tell pollsters. Respect for the cute hoor, the fixer, the big man. Queues are for other people. The inalienable right to a 6bedroom house on top of the Hill of Tara, with a gold plated SUV outside. Respect for education, contempt for learning or wisdom.

Good writing skills there dude.

Some people are still about who would say: "I'm voting Fianna Fáil, it's what we fought for".

I have no idea what it means either.

Let's not forget the Donough O'Malley free education and Haughey's farmers dole and pensioner freebies. People voted Fianna Ḟáil because they thought they looked after the little people.

.

JustinDee

To answer the original point of the thread though, yes I'll remember. Same as the Saudi passport scandals, the rezoning before even getting to the past couple of years.

Biggins

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Some of us will certainly remember, OP - we've actually been remembering since the time of Haughey and voted accordingly, but were unfortunately over-ruled by others.

Others, unfortunately - including Cowen himself yesterday - can't even bring themselves to admit FF's massive contributory role in all this.

Best of luck in the new life, and hope it's somewhere fair and ethical.

Me feelings exactly and those sentiments I will be expressing if by some miracle I appear on the Dail floor some day.

Some of us won't forget. Fianna Fail have certainly given us enough reason not to!

catbear

JustinDee wrote: »

Well yes, I have. Still had a choice and didn't exactly move to a warzone either. The survivors of my mother's family didn't have this luxury.
How is someone forced to move to another country these days? They're not. They take a choice to do so. .

Well then what's your definition of an economic refugee?

leincar

Yes I'll always remember. Fortunately or unfortunately I'm old enough to remember.

Take heart Jackass, I left in 1985 and came back in the early noughties, you may not come back, you may not want to come back, but the chance will always be there.

eigrod

Tony Killeen on Vincent Browne show now saying that there was never any connection between FF and developers/builders and that their biggest mistake was not making this clear over the last couple of years. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Sometimes I really really despair.

And the biggest problem is that there's plenty out there who will believe him.

JustinDee

catbear wrote: »

Well then what's your definition of an economic refugee?

The use of the word 'refugee' doesn't apply here, in my opinion and is completely misused in an over-the-top melodramatic fashion.
Someone's civil liberties, civil rights or life are not in danger if they stay in Ireland or even a part of Ireland.
Someone moving from say, Kerry, to Dublin to work isn't a "refugee". They're a migrant. They have not been forced to do what they've done. They've chosen to move. Same with someone who decides to leave the country, live elsewhere and find work.

[Jackass]

I, like thousands of other Irish citizens, was left in an Economic situation where I had no future left in Ireland thanks to the crumbled economy.

I could have sat tight and collected the dole, but luckily saw what was coming and managed to save enough so that when my head came onto the chopping block I had enabled myself to move to a country that weathered the global economic storm through compitent Government and responsible banking.

I didn't want to leave. I'd like to still be with my friends and family, but all I hear when I talk to people at home is endless jobless stories and how my parents in particular, coming right up ro retirement, have more or less lost everything and now it's up to their kids to support the family, and that's what we're all trying to do.

We all came from very good paying jobs to our own problems, with unemployment, or in my brothers case being caught in the negative equity trap and having to move back to the parents house, which is now also under threat..

Moving abroad wasn't a lifestyle choice, it was a survival one. And yes, I do feel the majority of the blame falls at the door of the Government for it's lack of foresight, incompetance, greed and corruption. They at no point looked out for the Irish people or maintaining the prosperty of the nation that had landed on their lap. Everything was a quick buck, in and out, everything they did, infrastructure, etc. all awarding contracts to developers to do massively overpriced jobs (outrageous when we look back at the billions wasted, and for what?) such as the LUAS etc.

No future planning, no mention even of what to do when, inevitably, as any person with a basic understanding of Economics will tell you, the boom dries up and the natural economic slump comes along.

It was just one big free for all money give away and back scratching - even to the point of protecting the banks immoral practices and putting lame duck regulators in there to appease public opinion and facilitate the bank to carry on as normal... they were the anti-peoples Government - all of it, every single decision made, was motivated by back handers, contracts and connections.

I'm sorry if people think it's being dramatic, and maybe it's head in the sand, or maybe people have been lucky enough to avoid the extent of devistation it has caused to many families in Ireland, but I can assure you, there are people out there who's lively hood and status in the country has been robbed as a very real result of the Government actions. This isn't playing a blame game, this is just an absolute fact of the reprecutions of what has happened in Ireland.

A generation has been mortgaged away, and this boys club got too big this time, to the extent that it has ruined the country for decades. This is not an exageration and I think some people are slightly numb to just how much damage has been done, as they don't see it in day to day life, but this is only the begining, and I am luckly that I was ABLE to get out, and it'll be in the years to come (and under a new Government) that the policies will have to be put in place to repair this, and pay for the hundreds of thousands of people who can not afford to live because of the mismanagement of the economy, and this will all have to result in higher taxes, and spreading around a lot less money a lot thiner, so public services will suffer as will the quality of life for all and the take home pay of the hard working.

So that's why I'm asking if you'll remember, because no one will like it, and it'll be a different Government doing it, and people, as they have done in the past, will blame the incumbant Government, and forget that they're just cleaning up the sh*t left behind the lads before, who got their millions and their fat pension, and can sit down over sherry and cigars at the yaucht club and chuckle "How the fu*k did we get away with that lads???".

mistermouse

Its probable that so many FF TDs will either retire or be booted out this time that the Party has a chance of rebuilding into a decent organisation.

Irish people do like to have their TD get their Passport or Medical Card, Grant etc. All that needs to stop and its not just FF.

With the upcoming wipeout there is a chance that their grassroots organisation will realise what needs to be done and start rebuilding with fresh, honest candidates, fresh ideology.

Fine Gael rebuilt over the past ten years and got some good new faces though they have yet to be tested.

Fine Gael and labour have been handed the Election by Fianna Fail. I am not sure they would have been better in Govt during the boom but hopefully they have learned the lessons

catbear

JustinDee wrote: »

Someone's civil liberties, civil rights or life are not in danger if they stay in Ireland or even a part of Ireland.

That's a political refugee. Look this is splitting hairs.

I know people who can not get any work here to cover their bills and in a few cases one partner has to leave this country for long periods leaving their family behind. They earn money that they send home to support their family, they have no postal vote.
Now you don't want to know about that. At least you have that choice, you have a say even when others don't.

gandalf

I distinctly remember Charlie Haughey going on telly telling us all to tighten our belts at a time when my father was struggling to put food on the table (and he had a good job back then!). I distinctly remember him telling me that all the builders and associated businesses were firmly FF. If he was alive today he would laugh and say I told you so.

I know from working in business that no one gives you a large amount of cash without expecting something in return.

To answer the original question yes I do and will remember. The problem is I have never voted for Fianna Fail so in reality my vote will not make a difference. The real question is will people step beyond their parish pump voting mentality and vote based on policies that benefit the whole nation in this country?

Will people look at the behaviour of Fianna Fail in the past, the utter failure to keep the economy on the right path it was on in 1997 when it was handed over to them, the total failure to mould the Health Service into an efficient organisation when they had the resources to do it and the handing over of part of our sovereignty to foreign bureaucrats? (and I could list far more failures here)

Unfortunately it is not people like me who will make a difference in the future it is those who have used their votes in a selfish and small minded fashion who will?

And I suppose them changing their minds will depend on whether their sons and daughters have had to emigrate, on whether they still have a job or not because if their circumstances have not changed dramatically then I do not see them changing the way they vote at all.

JustinDee

catbear wrote: »

That's a political refugee. Look this is splitting hairs

No, it most certainly isn't. I know the meaning of the word 'refugee' and can see when its being sanctimoniously hijacked.

catbear wrote: »

I know people who can not get any work here to cover their bills and in a few cases one partner has to leave this country for long periods leaving their family behind. They earn money that they send home to support their family, they have no postal vote.
Now you don't want to know about that. At least you have that choice, you have a say even when others don't.

Quit speaking for me. Its like a flippin' episode of 'Loose Women'.
They left. They weren't sent away.

Since you're going on what you know, I know people who have families that have found work either by sticking with the hunt or by joining a re-training programme. They're living in places that have been hit hard too such as Galway, Limerick and Waterford and aren't too proud to work in any line of business to keep things going.

catbear

I was responding to you opinion, I know nothing about you, only what you have expressed.
I'm trying to understand why you would dismiss the opinion of anyone who complains they were forced by economic necessity to emigrate. Are you tired of hearing bad news?

(By the way, that's question so don't say it's me putting words in your mouth. You have no problem providing words yourself, I'm just trying to understand why you think what you do).

eigrod

It is a very realistic proposition that a large number of people will forget. FF thrive on this. Cowen on the radio this morning, his entire mantra was about how well they are doing to revive the country, how hard they are working, all the difficult decisions they have made.

He said nothing, absolutely nada, about why they have had to make these difficult decisions, nothing about why the unemployment and emigration rates have hit the figures they have hit.

People will believe him and people will forget (or have already forgotten) who drove the bus into the concrete wall at 130kmph and are quite ready to pick themselves up, dust themselves down, and ask the same driver to drive on !

This whole leadership issue has also come at a good time for them - only last week the Seanie Fitzpatrick golf and dinner gathering was top news - not anymore. This is how they operate. Smoke and mirrors.

Yes, they will get a hammering at the next election, but not near as bad as the 14% they currently are. And the election after that ? I bet they will be back as either the party with the most seats, or second most.

It is infuriating, but history suggests that this is how it will be.

catbear

FF will shed its current skin and slitter on.

I don't think though it will be as easy to forget what happened. Remember how almost two years ago a lot more people were saying "going forward" yet the events of almost three years ago keep coming back. There's a lot of unresolved issues that won't go away and this time people's anger will start turn to where it should have been then rather than the Private versus Public sector war that the government had everyone dancing to keep the attention off their corruption.

JustinDee

catbear wrote: »

I was responding to you opinion, I know nothing about you, only what you have expressed.
I'm trying to understand why you would dismiss the opinion of anyone who complains they were forced by economic necessity to emigrate. Are you tired of hearing bad news?

(By the way, that's question so don't say it's me putting words in your mouth. You have no problem providing words yourself, I'm just trying to understand why you think what you do).

You were presuming and incorrectly so.

As I said, its a choice to move.
No-one is being sent away when the economy dives no more than they are forced to stick around when it soars. This is the driving factor in labour mobility.
Use of the word "refugee" is OTT, misleading and misguided.
I also believe there are not only two choices (dole v emigration) as I have described earlier.

Thats my opinion based on my own experience, my family's and of others.
I disagree on the interpretation of the migration (particularly yours). Its that simple.
This isn't making excuses for any govt either.

catbear

Well that's it then, we'll can only agree to differ.

flutered

i may not remember, but i will never FORGET

i_love_toast

im getting it tattoo'ed on my arse tuesday week. so yes, yes i will remember.

Biggins

i_love_toast wrote: »

im getting it tattoo'ed on my arse Tuesday week. so yes, yes i will remember.

Careful - FF might want to kiss that in order to get your next number 1 vote!

DarkJager

Good topic. You need to remember it is only the older generation or the terminally stupid who would vote for FF at this stage. This generation that they have ruined with debt and forced emigration will never forget what this party of spineless, incompetent wasters have done to them. FF won't have the chance to mount any charm offensive in opposition because they will be annihilated in the election, and won't even get enough seats to become anything more than hecklers and shouters in the dail.

I think they are finished as a party in this country and rightly so. They represent everything that is rotten and corrupt in this nation and they will be very lucky if they see any sort of backing for government within the next 60 years. If I had my way they'd all be lined up for a firing squad for treason, but we'll just have do with watching them slowly lurch towards the furnace waiting for them come election time.