"The good of the party . . ."

gizmo555

Marianne Finucane has just articulated on her radio programme a point which has been greatly irritating me over the last few weeks, and this week in particular.

I have lost count of the number of times recently where I have heard FF TDs, front bench & back bench, offering the reassurance that they will at all times act for "the good of the party", with never a word about the good of the country. That doesn't seem to factor in their thinking.

Noel Whelehan in his Irish Times opinion piece today notes in conclusion that FF is 85 years old in March. As a comment on his article notes, 85 is a decent age and the best thing now for the country might be if FF was simply allowed to die a natural death - I wholeheartedly agree!

bmaxi

gizmo555 wrote: »

Marianne Finucane has just articulated on her radio programme a point which has been greatly irritating me over the last few weeks, and this week in particular.

I have lost count of the number of times recently where I have heard FF TDs, front bench & back bench, offering the reassurance that they will at all times act for "the good of the party", with never a word about the good of the country. That doesn't seem to factor in their thinking.

Noel Whelehan in his Irish Times opinion piece today notes in conclusion that FF is 85 years old in March. As a comment on his article notes, 85 is a decent age and the best thing now for the country might be if FF was simply allowed to die a natural death - I wholeheartedly agree!

Fianna Fáil is just a name. It's individuals within FF that are the problem and the culture that has evolved within it. They will gravitate towards some other party or form a new one (a la PDs), they will nail their colours to the mast of any ship that serves their purpose.
Don't think that FF is unique among our political parties when it comes to self serving, corruption and cute hoorism, they are just the most extreme example. The only thing that would die is the name Fianna Fáil unless we change the fundamentals in politics.

gandalf

I agree 100% with you, these people are caught up in their own little bubble of entitlement and have no idea about the devastation and despair that is enveloping real Irish Society because of their bad governance.

I would wholeheartedly welcome the demise of the FF party because of the damage they have done to this country but as I have expressed on other similar threads I do not see that happening unless there is a split in the party. Its grass roots organisation is too large and its supporters are too indoctrinated.

maynooth_rules

I would prefer if we could put a bullet in FF head, rather than let then have a natural death.

bleg

What I think is galling is that they truely believe that FF has to continue to exist for the good of the country. I'd love to know what type of brainwashing FF members go through.

Min

bleg wrote: »

What I think is galling is that they truely believe that FF has to continue to exist for the good of the country. I'd love to know what type of brainwashing FF members go through.

Just as bad as Gilmore existing to sound angry about FF, that policy won't work in government.

gizmo555

bmaxi wrote: »

Fianna Fáil is just a name. It's individuals within FF that are the problem and the culture that has evolved within it. They will gravitate towards some other party or form a new one (a la PDs), they will nail their colours to the mast of any ship that serves their purpose.
Don't think that FF is unique among our political parties when it comes to self serving, corruption and cute hoorism, they are just the most extreme example. The only thing that would die is the name Fianna Fáil unless we change the fundamentals in politics.

Well, leaving aside arguments about which party has the most corrupt and self-serving members, the demise of FF might at least end the bizarre situation we have had since independence that the two biggest political parties in Ireland are essentially indistinguishable in terms of social and economic policy.

gandalf wrote: »

I agree 100% with you, these people are caught up in their own little bubble of entitlement and have no idea about the devastation and despair that is enveloping real Irish Society because of their bad governance.

The most charitable construction you can put on these types of "good of the party" remarks is not just that the speaker genuinely believes that the good of Fianna Fáil and the good of the country are one and the same thing, but that this ought to be obvious to listeners too. The level of delusion and arrogance required is mind-boggling.

later12

gizmo555 wrote: »

Marianne Finucane has just articulated on her radio programme a point which has been greatly irritating me over the last few weeks, and this week in particular.

I have lost count of the number of times recently where I have heard FF TDs, front bench & back bench, offering the reassurance that they will at all times act for "the good of the party", with never a word about the good of the country. That doesn't seem to factor in their thinking.

Why should it? The General Election is being held in March as far as we know, but possibly earlier. The earliest it could currently held would be the end of February. Opposition demands for the Government to end its life one month before the announced end is quite laughable after 13 and a half years of their failure to get them out electrally over a 30 year period

liammur

gizmo555 wrote: »

Marianne Finucane has just articulated on her radio programme a point which has been greatly irritating me over the last few weeks, and this week in particular.

I have lost count of the number of times recently where I have heard FF TDs, front bench & back bench, offering the reassurance that they will at all times act for "the good of the party", with never a word about the good of the country. That doesn't seem to factor in their thinking.

Noel Whelehan in his Irish Times opinion piece today notes in conclusion that FF is 85 years old in March. As a comment on his article notes, 85 is a decent age and the best thing now for the country might be if FF was simply allowed to die a natural death - I wholeheartedly agree!

Correct. FF always have put themselves ahead of the country. Up until quite recently Irish people were happy with this, the election will tell whether we are still happy with it. To paraphrase JFK:

Ask not what FF can do for Ireland, but what Ireland can do for FF.
And it made bertie ahern et all pretty wealthy individuals.

gizmo555

later10 wrote: »

Why should it?

Why should it? Why should the good of the country factor in the thinking of Fianna Fáil politicians? Words fail me . . .

Liam Byrne

Min wrote: »

Just as bad as Gilmore existing to sound angry about FF, that policy won't work in government.

Getting angry (and disgusted) at FF isn't a policy, it's a natural reaction.

It's hilarious - if he didn't get angry ye'd be saying that he wasn't doing his job - which is, for the moment, opposition.

Wide Road

Min wrote: »

Just as bad as Gilmore existing to sound angry about FF, that policy won't work in government.

+1.

ninty9er

You forget that the current media trial is only circumstantial and has no bearing on the good of the nation, in fact by perpetuating a media circus the opposition parties are demanding to ask questions now when the answers can fix fu<k all instead of having some proper debate in the Dail chamber and resolving the FF leadership and Seany's game of golf after an election when Brian Cowen is no longer Taoiseach and doesn't have a country to be running. Leaving it for another day isn't going to change anything whereas a national focus from ALL parties might actually solve some REAL issues.

gandalf

Wide Road wrote: »

+1.

Is that all you have to contribute? What is your opinion on "for the good of the party" type comments that are coming from the people that you have supported so blindly on this forum?

liammur

Wide Road wrote: »

+1.

First policy should be to take back the €60K golden handshake each retiring minister and td is getting, ( on top of their pension lump sums) for ruining the country.

later12

gizmo555 wrote: »

Why should it? Why should the good of the country factor in the thinking of Fianna Fáil politicians? Words fail me . . .

The good of the country in terms of bringing forward the election and calling it now instead of in a month.

gizmo555

later10 wrote: »

The good of the country in terms of bringing forward the election and calling it now instead of in a month.

Irrelevant to the point under discussion, which is that Fianna Fail TDs have a habit of banging on about the "good of the party" while never mentioning the good of the country and the people.

If they mean that an early election is not in the best interests of the country, why don't they say so, instead of implicitly assuming what's good for Fianna Fáil is good for everyone?

Liam Byrne

later10 wrote: »

The good of the country in terms of bringing forward the election and calling it now instead of in a month.

Isn't that the duty of and effective opposition when it sees unacceptable levels of incompetence and corruption?

I'll remind you that an election would have been called last year if opposition demands for by-elections had been listened to, but no - in Ireland the party in power can simply dismiss valid points raised.

Coillte_Bhoy

This is the problem with FF. They equate the party with the state. Dev's remsark about looking into his heart, Haughey's 'Spirt of the Nation' etc etc still holds true today for many in FF.

ednwireland

later10 wrote: »

Why should it? The General Election is being held in March as far as we know, but possibly earlier. The earliest it could currently held would be the end of February. Opposition demands for the Government to end its life one month before the announced end is quite laughable after 13 and a half years of their failure to get them out electrally over a 30 year period

you obviousley know mor than me i have heard no such announced end and i honestly beleive FF they will drag this out as long as they can get away with it.

there is no date for an election ! until cowen goes to the aras and calls one i dont see any reason for the opposition not to demand one

Permabear

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liammur

Permabear wrote: »

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This is correct. FF have made absolute muck of the economy, particularly outside of the dublin region. Massive emigration, massive unemployment, NO govt will be able to solve it.

bmaxi

Permabear wrote: »

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Which is the way it has always been. Things are always perceived to be better under FF because they spend money we haven't got, usually for the greater good of themselves and their cronies. This is the first time in my memory they have been caught out while actually still in government, usually it is when the opposition gets in and (unwisely IMO, tries to correct the balance of payments in the first week) that the **** hits the fan and people become nostalgic for the good old days of FF. The next election comes and the circle starts over again.

the groutch

Permabear wrote: »

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yeah, and Fianna Fail are abundant in those qualities :rolleyes:

gandalf

Permabear wrote: »

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But isn't this always the cycle with Fianna Fail, they destroy the economy others come in to make the hard decisions and when the same fools vote for them in a subsequent election they swan in again to do it all over again.

Granted this time they have really pulled out all the stops and really buggered us and the economy for at least 10 years if not longer.

later12

gizmo555 wrote: »

Irrelevant to the point under discussion, which is that Fianna Fail TDs have a habit of banging on about the "good of the party" while never mentioning the good of the country and the people.

Never? Personally i disagree, I think you may tend to be exaggerating. The answer as to whether or not they have tended to act in the interests of the country is obvious, but they have certainly 'banged on', as you put it, about both the interests of the country and the interests of the party. They are perfectly entitled to do so.

LiamByrne wrote:

Originally Posted by later10
The good of the country in terms of bringing forward the election and calling it now instead of in a month.

Isn't that the duty of and effective opposition when it sees unacceptable levels of incompetence and corruption?

Effective opposition? What's that in an Irish context? As much as I dislike the party, I would have to suggest it's Sinn Fein.

Yes, that is the role of an opposition party. I'm just pointing out that it's almost amusing to see the opposition in these repeated calls for the Government to fall: we have been hearing these calls repeatedly for 13 years years. Fine Gael haven't won an election in about 30 years, they tend to rely on Governments falling by themselves to actually reach power. Lets face it, it has taken an IMF bailout for the party to reach a pathetic 35% approval rating and to actually stand in line to form a coalition Government. Fine Gael are a political joke, I think it's quite unfortunate that we, Irish people, have to settle for them.

Permabear

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later12

gandalf wrote: »

But isn't this always the cycle with Fianna Fail, they destroy the economy others come in to make the hard decisions and when the same fools vote for them in a subsequent election they swan in again to do it all over again.

No, not really. That's quite an Irish political myth that tends to be pushed by people whose political knowledge begins and ends with second hand soundbytes.

The only really valid example for that is the 1980s with the FitzGerald Government. What other examples do you think there are?

Liam Byrne

Permabear wrote: »

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Thankfully, because every time FF do something wrong it affects us badly.

Permabear wrote: »

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We haven't had those 3 characteristics for the last 10 years, so even if you're correct - which you could be, although relative to what we have now any improvement would be a welcome improvement - why would the electorate suddenly demand them now ?

Permabear wrote: »

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Well as long as people remember WHY FG & Labour can't do anything worthwhile - the massive private debt that FF foisted on the state, combined with the results of economic mismanagement, that might not happen.

It has, unfortunately, happened every time that FG & Labour have cleaned up FF's previous messes, so I can only hope that people have gotten enough of a scare to cop themselves on this time.

If so, the pain may just be worth it yet.

Min

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Getting angry (and disgusted) at FF isn't a policy, it's a natural reaction.

It's hilarious - if he didn't get angry ye'd be saying that he wasn't doing his job - which is, for the moment, opposition.

It all seems so fake now, I would worry for someone if they were indeed that angry all the time, one would question their mental health, being angry offers nothing, saying a change of government will herald a new dawn for Ireland is not offering anything. Just Eamon thinking of his own party and power.
Roisin Shortall was on radio1 today, her policy to fix the country is to change the government.
I am sure when Labour says they need an election to gets jobs created in the country, they are thinking of the party and how unemployed Labour politicians will get employment in the Dáil.

Permabear

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Liam Byrne

Min wrote: »

It all seems so fake now, I would worry for someone if they were indeed that angry all the time, one would question their mental health, being angry offers nothing, saying a change of government will herald a new dawn for Ireland is not offering anything. Just Eamon thinking of his own party and power.
Roisin Shortall was on radio1 today, her policy to fix the country is to change the government.
I am sure when Labour says they need an election to gets jobs created in the country, they are thinking of the party and how unemployed Labour politicians will get employment in the Dáil.

I disagree. The incompetence, corruption and dismissiveness of the current needs to be lanced ASAP.

And I would actually question someone's mental health if they weren't furious about where FF have landed us.

It's true that we don't know how good or bad the incoming government would be, but at least it gives us some chance of optimism.

If that optimism proves to be unfounded, then fair enough; we'll all just emigrate out of this cesspit.

But it's worth a shot before packing up.

pajor

Permabear wrote: »

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I'm sort of fearing the same. I'm not much above the voting age but I know enough about Charles Haughey to know he was corrupt and shiftless.
Supplying guns to the Ra (cleared of course), phone tappings, expensive offices and vicious rivalries with Lynch and Reynolds etc etc.

BUT five years out of power FF are re-elected by a landslide with the Teflon Taoiseach! It's simply a cycle which we're all about to go through again :pac:

johngalway

Min wrote: »

Roisin Shortall was on radio1 today, her policy to fix the country is to change the government.
I am sure when Labour says they need an election to gets jobs created in the country, they are thinking of the party and how unemployed Labour politicians will get employment in the Dáil.

Perhaps she meant that Opposition parties cannot implement their policies from the Opposition benches. Therefore we do need a change of Government for the current Opposition to attempt to fix the Fianna Failure mess Ireland has become.

gizmo555

later10 wrote: »

Irrelevant to the point under discussion, which is that Fianna Fail TDs have a habit of banging on about the "good of the party" while never mentioning the good of the country and the people.

Never? Personally i disagree, I think you may tend to be exaggerating.

Not exaggeration at all. Cowen was at it again at today's press conference, when he:

stated that by taking this initiative he believed he was acting in the best interests of the party and its membership and that he was confident of the outcome.

Newsflash, Brian. The rest of us don't give a damn about the best interests of Fianna Fáil and wish you'd sling your hook ASAP . . .

later12

gizmo555 wrote: »

Not exaggeration at all. Cowen was at it again at today's press conference, when he:

stated that by taking this initiative he believed he was acting in the best interests of the party and its membership and that he was confident of the outcome.

That's because it was a party vote and the issue at hand was not his premiership, but his leadership of the party - I'm no supporter of BC but in fairness the man is entitled, if not outright expected, to speak publicly about his leadership of *the party*.

andrew cross

the groutch wrote: »

yeah, and Fianna Fail are abundant in those qualities :rolleyes:

yea right, bunch of gutless worms:eek:

gizmo555

later10 wrote: »

That's because it was a party vote and the issue at hand was not his premiership, but his leadership of the party - I'm no supporter of BC but in fairness the man is entitled, if not outright expected, to speak publicly about his leadership of *the party*.

What I found aggravating in the extreme was the repeated references by many Fianna Fails TDs to "the good of the party" without mention of the country. And it was noticeable that after Marian drew attention to this collective habit on Saturday's radio show that numbers of them started self-consciously talking about the best interests of the party and country.

The best interests of any political party are not an end in themselves. They should at all times be completely secondary to and subservient to the best interests of the country. Instead what we get is a complete refusal by Fianna Fáil to admit that any other parties in governement might have performed any better than them and that they remain the best people to bring us out of the unprecedented economic catastrophe they themselves inflicted on us.

If they had any shame, they would admit they had their chance and they blew it spectacularly and that the country's interest would best be served if they folded their (Galway) tent and disbanded. But of course, as Pat Rabbitte rightly pointed out to Pat Carey, Fianna Fáil doesn't do shame . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqx4E5tq1Bo