A solution to "parish pump" politics

RichardAnd

I think we can possibly lean towards the general agreement that one of Ireland's big political problems is local politics. Being such a small country, people are likely to meet their TD coming up to elections who will make promised not on national issues but on the boiler for the local school, getting that dodgy traffic light fixed or, as the colloquialism goes, fixing up the "parish pump", what ever form it may take. For a fine example of this, look at Mr Healey Ray

Now then, this idea is one I formed a number of months ago whilst in conversation with an old sparing partner of mine. It will never come to anything, even if it is a good idea, but I thought I would share it none the less. It's quite a simple proposal, so here goes;

First of all, as part of my idea, constituencies would remain intact. However when election time rolls around, the voter will NOT be voting in their own TDs but rather, they will be voting in the TDs of another constituency.

For example, Kerry North would be voting for the TDs from a dublin constituency whilst that same Dublin zone might be casting its votes the TDs in Offaly. The crucial factor here is that people in Kerry will not give a fiddlers about potholes in Dublin and thus, they will be more likely to look at the national issues of the TDs which is better for IReland as a whole.

Now, a second aspect of this is that, with each election, the constituencies are swapped around so that no single constituency votes for another in two subsequent elections.

Granted, this is a rather wild and radical idea and will never leave these boards but I thought it might make an interesting discussion.

ei.sdraob

I think this will lead to people not bothering to vote

What is needed is for TDs to stop getting involved in anything local such as fixing potholes etc, thats what the (many) councils and corporations we have are for along with the elected local politicians.

hardCopy

I think somebody else suggested this a couple of weeks ago.

I don't really like it, people need to take some responsibility for the behaviour of the representatives they elect.

Maybe drastically reducing the numbers of TDs and increasing the size of constituencies to such a degree that no TD could possibly manage all the constituency work and they'd then have to concentrate on earning voters respect by drafting sensible legislation.

Remove the passport application box from Leinster House and make it illegal for a TD to intervene or enquire on a Passport/Medical Card/Planning/Garda/Medical Card matter on behalf of anyone.

Amhran Nua

Party list system, done, next, and this should be in politics.

kmick

Would not work local TD's would just make deals with the proposed TD's.

phantom_lord

hardCopy wrote: »

Maybe drastically reducing the numbers of TDs and increasing the size of constituencies to such a degree that no TD could possibly manage all the constituency work and they'd then have to concentrate on earning voters respect by drafting sensible legislation.

Due to the quota required they could still get elected by concentrating on a small area.

Best solution is changing to a list system.

Big Vern

hardCopy wrote: »

Remove the passport application box from Leinster House and make it illegal for a TD to intervene or enquire on a Passport/Medical Card/Planning/Garda/Medical Card matter on behalf of anyone.

This has to happen...

The list idea is a good one as well that should be looked at...

Manach

The OP's idea is interesting, in that it would force people to think of the national interest. In defence of local issue politics, it reduce the options of people who have been effected by the actions of the state, and would instead push people to seek judicial means of preventing government agencies acting ultra-vires.

Slightly OT, I presume wikipedia is the best place to learn more on the list system?

Eliot Rosewater

I am currently reading the book Politics in the Republic of Ireland, which is kind of an introductory textbook for university politics students. They have a whole chapter dedicated to "The Constituency Role of Dail Deputies".

The book doesn't have conclusions per se; rather they distil different arguments from different academics, and fuse these into a concluding general point of view. They say that the voting system for the Dail isn't the biggest factor in promoting parish pump politics. They say that Irish people culturally expect TDs to involve themselves locally, and that this isn't strange: parlimantarians across the world also devote a significant amount of time to their constituents, regardless of voting method. Even parliamentarians elected through a list system "stick" to a particular area of the list constituency, and continue a local role out of sense of duty and public demand. Additionally, for example in the case of Belgium in the 90s, ordering of candidates on the party list is based partly on their local work.

The book argues that the localism of TDs would be better addressed by beefing up local councils instead of changing the voting system for the Dail.

how about we also get rid of the whip system

vote in the taoiseach by the people & maybe even individual ministers or just finance minister

to hell with parties - people act like they are supporting a football team - makes no sense
then get rid of the seanad and the presidency

limit or get rid of political appointments - its also where corruption breeds

P. Breathnach

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

...

The book argues that the localism of TDs would be better addressed by beefing up local councils instead of changing the voting system for the Dail.

That seems reasonable, and eliminating the dual mandate reflects a similar view.

People's expectations might be managed if some things were changed.

First, it should be clearly understood that a TD represents constituents only on issues, and not in relation to individual circumstances. It should be proper for me to communicate with a TD to discuss national issues, or local issues of concern to the community generally. It should not be proper for me to seek that a politician to intervene for me on an issue relevant only to me. In reality, you won't be able to stop people trying that, but it might be possible to stop politicians acting on it: they should be precluded from communicating directly or indirectly with public servants in relation to individual's business. [You might be surprised at how much more productive the public service might become as a result: dealing with politicians' representations actually takes up a great deal of time in some parts of the public service.]

Second, an alternative simple mechanism for accessing public services should be put in place. Many people work through politicians because they don't know how to work the system. Schemes like the Citizens Information Board and Citizens Information Centres are useful, but I think they need to be developed further.

Third, accessing services should be made as simple as possible. This has been achieved in some areas (e.g. Revenue Online Service), but not in others. I can give an example. Recently I made a Social Welfare claim, and had to deal with a very cumbersome multi-page form; that sort of thing does not bother me greatly, because I am good with forms, and I know how things work, including understanding what I can omit, or where an approximation rather than a precise answer is sufficient. But many -- probably most -- people do not find this sort of stuff easy. Things have been improving, but there is still a long way to go.

I would love to see a system where if a politician (even a Minister) communicated with public servants about individual cases, there was a standard mandated response: "Dear xxx, I am not allowed communicate with you on this matter."

phantom_lord

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I am currently reading the book Politics in the Republic of Ireland, which is kind of an introductory textbook for university politics students. They have a whole chapter dedicated to "The Constituency Role of Dail Deputies".

The book doesn't have conclusions per se; rather they distil different arguments from different academics, and fuse these into a concluding general point of view. They say that the voting system for the Dail isn't the biggest factor in promoting parish pump politics. They say that Irish people culturally expect TDs to involve themselves locally, and that this isn't strange: parlimantarians across the world also devote a significant amount of time to their constituents, regardless of voting method. Even parliamentarians elected through a list system "stick" to a particular area of the list constituency, and continue a local role out of sense of duty and public demand. Additionally, for example in the case of Belgium in the 90s, ordering of candidates on the party list is based partly on their local work.

The book argues that the localism of TDs would be better addressed by beefing up local councils instead of changing the voting system for the Dail.

Michael Gallagher and other Irish academics really don't seem to think there's much of a problem with clientelism and don't seem very interested in trying to reduce the element of it in politics. I don't really agree with their views on it.

Anonymous1987

phantom_lord wrote: »

The likes of Michael Gallagher and other Irish academics really don't seem to think there's much of a problem with clientelism and don't seem very interested in trying to reduce the element of it in politics. I don't really agree with their views on it.

I found their view of clientelism rather interesting, do we really have much evidence to say it is a problem? more to the point, does a list system you mentioned earlier really deal with the issue?

Changing to a list system under the present whip system will ensure party before country politics and will strengthen the Taoiseach's hand and his cabinet further as people will be voting for the party not the candidate.

In addition, there seems to be an idea going around that the present crisis was purely a political failure, I would view it as primarily an institutional one and not just a domestic one. The Irish financial regulator failed to enforce regulation whereas the ECB maintained low interest rates while capital flooded Ireland and inflated the banking and construction sectors. Keep in mind both the regulator and the ECB are supposed to be independent of political interference. The private sector chased short term profits with little regard for long term implications and government benefited from the increased tax take while keeping unions happy with generous salary increases. In addition, the government mismanaged both expenditure and taxation as well as deciding to bail out the banks resulting in the country itself needing a bailout.

In all this, there certainly was political failure but it is at the party and national level and not the constituency and candidate level, hence a list system would be of questionable benefit as it doesn't seem to deal with the galway tent rather it reinforces it through the whip system and party loyalty. It's important to keep in mind that the parish pump and our current crisis are separate issues.

Giving more responsibility to county councils might alleviate the problem of the parish pump to a degree without reinforcing party politics and the power of the Taoiseach and the cabinet On the other hand, a list system may alleviate the parish pump but will increase the problems that brought us to our current crisis; a sub-optimal solution.

amacachi

What extra responsibilities would people like to see passed to the councils?

phantom_lord

Anonymous1987 wrote: »

I found their view of clientelism rather interesting, do we really have much evidence to say it is a problem? more to the point, does a list system you mentioned earlier really deal with the issue?

I think it certainly is, politicians are far too focused locally and spend far too much time in their area. The last study I saw was that they spent an average of 44 hours dealing with constituency work. There's loads of evidence of TDs looking after their local area rather than focusing on what's best nationally, unburdening them from their local area might alleviate some of this focus.

No electoral reform on its own wont solve the issue, political reform and a strengthening of local government is needed too.

Anonymous1987 wrote: »

Changing to a list system under the present whip system will ensure party before country politics and will strengthen the Taoiseach's hand and his cabinet further as people will be voting for the party not the candidate.

Political parties already have really strong control over candidate selection under the present system. A open list might allow the public a better selection.

Anonymous1987 wrote: »

In addition, there seems to be an idea going around that the present crisis was purely a political failure, I would view it as primarily an institutional one and not just a domestic one. The Irish financial regulator failed to enforce regulation whereas the ECB maintained low interest rates while capital flooded Ireland and inflated the banking and construction sectors. Keep in mind both the regulator and the ECB are supposed to be independent of political interference. The private sector chased short term profits with little regard for long term implications and government benefited from the increased tax take while keeping unions happy with generous salary increases. In addition, the government mismanaged both expenditure and taxation as well as deciding to bail out the banks resulting in the country itself needing a bailout.

In all this, there certainly was political failure but it is at the party and national level and not the constituency and candidate level, hence a list system would be of questionable benefit as it doesn't seem to deal with the galway tent rather it reinforces it through the whip system and party loyalty. It's important to keep in mind that the parish pump and our current crisis are separate issues.

No I agree with you. But a national list would offer better nationally focused candidates with stronger skill sets rather than the local teachers and gaa players PR throws up presently. Lowry/Bev Flynn/JHR would be cast aside for better candidates.

sligopark

Pesonally I like the fact that a local TD will get stuff done for the communtiy for which he relies upon their vote.

Given its Ireland if we didn't have the ability to fall back on a politician to get something done - nothing would get done.

Its not like this is the continent or anything - and look how well the lack of so called parish pump politics in England has led to vast areas been neglected when party politics has thrown in a candidate from another area just to give that elitist politician into a short cut into a ministerial job.

The country is in ruins because elists and stroke merchants in FF took away the say from the ordianry person in local cumainn who had something to say - is it seriously being suggested that this be made the norm?

whats the point in having a vote then?

Mike 1972

Surely a better solution would be to scrap constituencies entirely ?

Make the entire country (remember our population is equivalent to a mid-large sized European city) a single constuency and elect a 108 seat dail from a list system while devolving the "parish pump" stuff to Local authorities (which is what theyre supposedly for in the first place)

If the notion of "their area" losing representation in the Oireachtas is really too much of a shock for some people one could always offer them an elected senate (upper house) of around 40-45 members elected by PR-STV from single seat constituencies .

Such an arrangment would have other benefits too.
1) Reduction in the size (and therfore cost) of the Dail from 166 to 108 members
2) A reformed and more democratic upper house.

Along with keeping parish pump politics out of Leinster House Id like to see a ban on local authority members discussing/passing resolutions on matters reserved for the other branches of government. Scrapping the Presidency (at least in its current form) and European elections fought on actual European issues.

Sulmac

amacachi wrote: »

What extra responsibilities would people like to see passed to the councils?

Well first of all they need the power to raise their own money, either through a property tax or by taking shares in income tax and/or VAT in their areas. In the Nordic countries, municipalities can also raise income tax levels within a certain level (around 1-2%) as well.

I've argued in favour of a proper two-tier system of local government based on regions and municipalities based on what other European countries have, instead of this nonsense of county and city councils being the 'first tier' and town and borough councils being the 'second tier' but in reality just duplicating the services the counties provide.

In other countries, regional and local governments often have responsibilities over (and this varies from country to country, and is not an exhaustive list) -

Regional:

 Public transport (tendering for services or running them directly, also infrastructure construction).
 Tertiary education (typically shared with the national government).
 Regional roads.
 Electricity production, waste disposal, water treatment.
 Hospital care.
 Certain social welfare programmes.
 Regional planning.
 Police / security.
 Emergency services – including fire, mountain rescue.
 Agriculture / forestry / fishing.
 Tourism.
 Heritage / environment.
 Airports / harbours.

Local:

 Primary and secondary education.
 Libraries, theatres, museums.
 Swimming pools / sports.
 Local roads.
 Primary care / health centres / convalescent care.
 Parks.
 Waste collection / water infrastructure.
 District heating.
 Social welfare distribution.
 Housing.
 Local planning.
 Births / deaths / marriages / civil partnerships.

A few off of this list would be a start (although local government here already has responsibilities over some of these areas, such as housing). This leaves national government to deal with issues of national importance - justice, defence, international relations, the economy, etc.

sligopark

ACCOUNTABILITY is what is needed outside of removing or minimising parish pump constituency politics and removing voter interest.

Sulmac I agree with what you say (having lived in scandanavia and germany) but unfortunately this tax impostion in Ireland (with its lower population) would lead to more disquiet and allow more gombeenism, since at a local level it would appear politicians are more amenable to pressure from above and business interest from within a community.

Mike 1972 - I have to agree to disagree about fighting EU elections on EU issues so to speak since EU politics have little or no interest to ordinary folk simply because if EU policy is good for Ireland - the Irish politicians claim it was they that did it, if EU policy is bad for Ireland, Irish politicians then blame the EU and this is why so many folk are confused as to whether the EU is a group from the 80/90's that had a common good in mind and was mindful of individual sovereignty, or the EU of today wherein a federal superstate has been put in place superceding Irish interests.

Anonymous1987

phantom_lord wrote: »

I think it certainly is, politicians are far too focused locally and spend far too much time in their area. The last study I saw was that they spent an average of 44 hours dealing with constituency work. There's loads of evidence of TDs looking after their local area rather than focusing on what's best nationally, unburdening them from their local area might alleviate some of this focus.

This wouldn't be as much of an issue if county councils had a greater role, preferably the government bureaucracy would be decentralised. I should point out that by decentralised I mean bureaucracy and decision making made at the local level rather than the governments previous attempt at "decentralisation" which wasn't really decentralisation rather a dispersement of centralised functions to various locations around the country.

The academics seem to make the argument that the clientalism in Ireland isn't actually corruption rather it is making up for failure of government bureaucracy to adequately inform the public of their entitlements and the necessary documentation to achieve those entitlements.

Regardless national politicians should be playing their role in the national legislature but they cannot do this when the power rests with Taoiseach and the cabinet not the Dail. This is why I think the most pressing issue should be the reform of our political institutions not the electoral process, the following is key:

phantom_lord wrote: »

No electoral reform on its own wont solve the issue, political reform and a strengthening of local government is needed too.

phantom_lord wrote: »

Political parties already have really strong control over candidate selection under the present system.

True

phantom_lord wrote: »

A open list might allow the public a better selection.

No I agree with you. But a national list would offer better nationally focused candidates with stronger skill sets rather than the local teachers and gaa players PR throws up presently. Lowry/Bev Flynn/JHR would be cast aside for better candidates.

Perhaps, Fine Gael at present are guilty of scrambling to introduce new candidates who are already identifiable by the public and not for their policy experience but I wouldn't expect miracles under a new system.

sligopark

which again points to reform- the only model we have seen of which in Europe isn't amneable to the low population of Ireland and present Irish politics has no incentive to look towards

femur61

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

The book argues that the localism of TDs would be better addressed by beefing up local councils instead of changing the voting system for the Dail.

Couldn't agree more. I'm not a politics student but parish pump politics needs to be erradicated.

liammur

RichardAnd wrote: »

I think we can possibly lean towards the general agreement that one of Ireland's big political problems is local politics. Being such a small country, people are likely to meet their TD coming up to elections who will make promised not on national issues but on the boiler for the local school, getting that dodgy traffic light fixed or, as the colloquialism goes, fixing up the "parish pump", what ever form it may take. For a fine example of this, look at Mr Healey Ray

Now then, this idea is one I formed a number of months ago whilst in conversation with an old sparing partner of mine. It will never come to anything, even if it is a good idea, but I thought I would share it none the less. It's quite a simple proposal, so here goes;

First of all, as part of my idea, constituencies would remain intact. However when election time rolls around, the voter will NOT be voting in their own TDs but rather, they will be voting in the TDs of another constituency.

For example, Kerry North would be voting for the TDs from a dublin constituency whilst that same Dublin zone might be casting its votes the TDs in Offaly. The crucial factor here is that people in Kerry will not give a fiddlers about potholes in Dublin and thus, they will be more likely to look at the national issues of the TDs which is better for IReland as a whole.

Now, a second aspect of this is that, with each election, the constituencies are swapped around so that no single constituency votes for another in two subsequent elections.

Granted, this is a rather wild and radical idea and will never leave these boards but I thought it might make an interesting discussion.

Willie O Dea has been probably the biggest failure in the cabinet - why?

Because he did not engage in parish pump politics. He carried out his duties as a defence minister. However, he left the other regions get all the IDA jobs, and left local businesses in tatters as a result.

P. Breathnach

liammur wrote: »

Willie O Dea has been probably the biggest failure in the cabinet - why?

Because he did not engage in parish pump politics. He carried out his duties as a defence minister. However, he left the other regions get all the IDA jobs, and left local businesses in tatters as a result.

I have no idea if Limerick has been disadvantaged more than other places.

We should distinguish between the role of a TD and that of a Minister, even though Ministers are usually also TDs. Many of our politicians and our voters have connived to subvert the role of a Minister: there is no Minister for Waterford, or for Galway, or for Louth. Ministers have national roles, not local ones.

It seems quite reasonable that a TD be an advocate for a constituency at a general level. That's quite different from expediting a passport or forwarding an application for a medical card.

It is not the role of a Minister to use a position in government to procure advantage for his or her constituency. Because there is a potential conflict of interest, Minister's decisions that have an impact on his or her own constituency should be subject to special scrutiny.

liammur

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I have no idea if Limerick has been disadvantaged more than other places.


It is not the role of a Minister to use a position in government to procure advantage for his or her constituency. Because there is a potential conflict of interest, Minister's decisions that have an impact on his or her own constituency should be subject to special scrutiny.

Correct.

Limerick city and county have got less than 1,000 IDA jobs between them since 1997 despite several thousand being lost. That's the main reason the city is on the verge of collapse. I contend that O Dea failed the region in not engaging in parish pump politics, when over time it should have been clearly obvious to him that he needed to. It is for this reason that one can't totally dismiss the concept of parish pump politics.

Mike 1972

sligopark wrote: »

if EU policy is good for Ireland - the Irish politicians claim it was they that did it, if EU policy is bad for Ireland, Irish politicians then blame the EU .

Isint this basically parish pump politics operating on a larger scale ?

nesf

femur61 wrote: »

Couldn't agree more. I'm not a politics student but parish pump politics needs to be erradicated.

It can't be and that's the core issue. At best we can displace parish pump politics to local councils but we can never eradicate it because people expect politicians to solve issues for them.

We mainly have very high levels of parish pump politics at national level because of a policy of neutering the local councils that was carried out in the early days of the State. This was mainly done because of the perceived level of corruption and parish pump politics happening at local level (among other things) but only resulted in shifting the problem further up the chain.

Paul_Carr

RichardAnd wrote: »

I think we can possibly lean towards the general agreement that one of Ireland's big political problems is local politics. Being such a small country, people are likely to meet their TD coming up to elections who will make promised not on national issues but on the boiler for the local school, getting that dodgy traffic light fixed or, as the colloquialism goes, fixing up the "parish pump", what ever form it may take. For a fine example of this, look at Mr Healey Ray

Now then, this idea is one I formed a number of months ago whilst in conversation with an old sparing partner of mine. It will never come to anything, even if it is a good idea, but I thought I would share it none the less. It's quite a simple proposal, so here goes;

First of all, as part of my idea, constituencies would remain intact. However when election time rolls around, the voter will NOT be voting in their own TDs but rather, they will be voting in the TDs of another constituency.

For example, Kerry North would be voting for the TDs from a dublin constituency whilst that same Dublin zone might be casting its votes the TDs in Offaly. The crucial factor here is that people in Kerry will not give a fiddlers about potholes in Dublin and thus, they will be more likely to look at the national issues of the TDs which is better for IReland as a whole.

Now, a second aspect of this is that, with each election, the constituencies are swapped around so that no single constituency votes for another in two subsequent elections.

Granted, this is a rather wild and radical idea and will never leave these boards but I thought it might make an interesting discussion.

An Irish Solution to an Irish Problem.

Paul_Carr

sligopark wrote: »

Pesonally I like the fact that a local TD will get stuff done for the communtiy for which he relies upon their vote.*
*
Given its Ireland if we didn't have the ability to fall back on a politician to get something done - nothing would get done.

Allow me to edit.

'Given its Corruption if we didn't have the ability to fall back on a politician to get something done - nothing would get done.'

What does Corruption become when it arrives at the magical shores of Ireland, the land of Saints and Scholars, the land from whence missionaries and monks came to conquer pagan Europe? We invent an entirely new word called gombeenism. We don't call it Irish Corruption. We don't call it Corruption in Ireland or the Republic of Ireland. We call it the natural state of affairs for the august residents of the Land of Saints and Scholars. When are we going to f***ing wake up?

Paul Carr

Paul_Carr

Manach wrote: »

The OP's idea is interesting, in that it would force people to think of the national interest. In defence of local issue politics, it reduce the options of people who have been effected by the actions of the state, and would instead push people to seek judicial means of preventing government agencies *acting ultra-vires.

Slightly OT, I presume wikipedia is the best place to learn more on the list system?

Read up on Swedish list system. I think it will work very smoothly in the Republic of Ireland. We'll make a few adaptations given the differences in population size between the two countries. (Sweden 9.3 million people plus, the Republic of Ireland: 4.5 million people).

I propose 29 constituencies to elect 166 TDs. The party list is closed unless a particular party candidate gets a particular preference that amounts to over 16% of the total party vote in that constituency. Then, he/she goes to the top of the list regardless of where the party leadership had placed him/her initially. This means that the party leadership won't get it entirely their way. However, they will have more power to get elected the people they want into parliament, *bright people who should be motivated by ideology/ideas for the country as a whole and not necessarily based on a track record of delivering for a subset of constituents in his/her constituency. More women will be nominated as a result of this reform and more women elected to parliament. The present 13% of TDs being women is abysmal compared to an average of 42% for the Scandnavian countries and 12.5% of parliamentarians in the Arab world.

Read more on the Swedish list system here:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Sweden

http://www.val.se/in_english/general_information/index.html

Paul_Carr

I compressed the second link.

http://j.mp/dU4zbx

Paul_Carr

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I am currently reading the book Politics in the Republic of Ireland, which is kind of an introductory textbook for university politics students. They have a whole chapter dedicated to "The Constituency Role of Dail Deputies".

The book doesn't have conclusions per se; rather they distil different arguments from different academics, and fuse these into a concluding general point of view. They say that the voting system for the Dail isn't the biggest factor in promoting parish pump politics. They say that Irish people culturally expect TDs to involve themselves locally, and that this isn't strange: parlimantarians across the world also devote a significant amount of time to their constituents, regardless of voting method. Even parliamentarians elected through a list system "stick" to a particular area of the list constituency, and continue a local role out of sense of duty and public demand. Additionally, for example in the case of Belgium in the 90s, ordering of candidates on the party list is based partly on their local work.

The book argues that the localism of TDs would be better addressed by beefing up local councils instead of changing the voting system for the Dail.

How about both with plenty more systemic root and branch reform besides.

johnnyskeleton

RichardAnd wrote: »

For example, Kerry North would be voting for the TDs from a dublin constituency whilst that same Dublin zone might be casting its votes the TDs in Offaly. The crucial factor here is that people in Kerry will not give a fiddlers about potholes in Dublin and thus, they will be more likely to look at the national issues of the TDs which is better for IReland as a whole.

All this would mean is that Jackie Healy Rae will promise a new hospital for West Dublin and to fix the potholes and he'll be elected. Brian Lenihan will offer the same to South Kerry and also get elected.

In the alternative, knowing that the people of South Kerry vote for the TD in West Dublin, JHR will just register to run in West Dublin, thus he will be de facto restored to his South Kerry Seat.

It will not solve the problem at all, it would just be a rearranging of the deckchairs. That's aside from the democratically dubious nature of voting for someone who doesn't represent his or her constituents.

We don't need exotic solutions, either a list, a partial list or larger constituencies with fewer TDs e.g. 5 constituencies of 10 TDs each for a 50 seat dail.

liammur

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

All this would mean is that Jackie Healy Rae will promise a new hospital for West Dublin and to fix the potholes and he'll be elected. Brian Lenihan will offer the same to South Kerry and also get elected.

In the alternative, knowing that the people of South Kerry vote for the TD in West Dublin, JHR will just register to run in West Dublin, thus he will be de facto restored to his South Kerry Seat.

It will not solve the problem at all, it would just be a rearranging of the deckchairs. That's aside from the democratically dubious nature of voting for someone who doesn't represent his or her constituents.

We don't need exotic solutions, either a list, a partial list or larger constituencies with fewer TDs e.g. 5 constituencies of 10 TDs each for a 50 seat dail.

Correct. A system like the U.S would help solve the problem. Vote for a party, not an individual. So if individuals weren't dependant on local votes, they should be able to look at the bigger picture.

sligopark

liammur wrote: »

Correct. A system like the U.S would help solve the problem. Vote for a party, not an individual.

Unfortunately its hard to see that work here given there is nothing to seperate the three main political parties here in Ireland (ff FG and Lab) as seen by their european politics where party politics is at the fore rather than personality driven as it is more at home.

They are centre political parties basically who believe in centralising power governementally, being part of a wider european model (giving up our sovereignty to another master), pro business, and all three are pro abortion and pro euthanasia, according to their political affiliations.

Imagine how that would be received at home.

Sulmac

liammur wrote: »

Correct. A system like the U.S would help solve the problem. Vote for a party, not an individual. So if individuals weren't dependant on local votes, they should be able to look at the bigger picture.

In the U.S. it's almost all about the individual, not the party - in fact, party means little when it comes to national politics, otherwise Obama wouldn't have had such a hard time getting his agenda through in the past two years. The 'parish pump' also exists in the U.S. in the form of 'pork barrelling', and it's just as bad as it is here.

If you really want to vote based on the party, a list system like most European countries have is the way to go. That said, that's only one thing that we can bring in to remove the parish pump from national politics.

liammur

Sulmac wrote: »

In the U.S. it's almost all about the individual, not the party - in fact, party means little when it comes to national politics, otherwise Obama wouldn't have had such a hard time getting his agenda through in the past two years. The 'parish pump' also exists in the U.S. in the form of 'pork barrelling', and it's just as bad as it is here.

If you really want to vote based on the party, a list system like most European countries have is the way to go. That said, that's only one thing that we can bring in to remove the parish pump from national politics.

In america, you vote for the party. Then say, obama appoints people to the key roles, unlike here, where we have anyone doing finance etc.

Sulmac

liammur wrote: »

In america, you vote for the party. Then say, obama appoints people to the key roles, unlike here, where we have anyone doing finance etc.

No you don't. In any election in the U.S. you vote for a person, never a party, although more often than not they are affiliated with a party - just like here or in the U.K.

I'm not sure what the second sentence is about, but Obama appoints his cabinet who are independent of Congress but must be approved by the Senate. It's a completely different system.