Toulon v Munster Sun 16th Jan. KO 16:00 Local Time (15:00 Irish Time)

phog

This is a must win game for us if we have any chance of making it out of the Pool stages. Toulon are beatable but Munster haven't been under this kind of pressure in a long time.

The Squad is:

Munster Squad: Wian Du Preez, Darragh Hurley, Tony Buckley, John Hayes, Mike Sherry, Damien Varley, Billy Holland, Donncha O’Callaghan, Paul O’Connell, Mick O’Driscoll, Donnacha Ryan, Niall Ronan, James Coughlan, Tommy O’Donnell, David Wallace, Denis Leamy, Tomas O’Leary, Peter Stringer, Scott Deasy, Ronan O’Gara, Paul Warwick, Johne Murphy, Sam Tuitupou, Keith Earls, Lifeimi Mafi, Denis Hurley, Doug Howlett.

With the versatility of O'Leary, Warwick and Murphy McGahan might take an extra forward in his 23 to be able to add some firepower if needed. I'd start O'Connell or not have in the squad at all.

C'mon Munster

CouchSmart

Thornley seems to reckon he knows the team.

MUNSTER (possible): P Warwick; D Howlett, K Earls, S Tuitupou, J Murphy; R O’Gara, P Stringer; W du Preez, D Varley, J Hayes, D O’Callaghan, P O’Connell, J Coughlan, D Wallace, D Leamy. Replacements: M Sherry, Darragh Hurley, T Buckley, M O’Driscoll, N Ronan, T O’Leary, L Mafi, Denis Hurley.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/0113/1224287410200.html

pappyodaniel

Any word on Toulon's starting XV? Hope on hope Dr Felipe is playing at 10.

phog

CouchSmart wrote: »

Thornley seems to reckon he knows the team.

MUNSTER (possible): P Warwick; D Howlett, K Earls, S Tuitupou, J Murphy; R O’Gara, P Stringer; W du Preez, D Varley, J Hayes, D O’Callaghan, P O’Connell, J Coughlan, D Wallace, D Leamy. Replacements: M Sherry, Darragh Hurley, T Buckley, M O’Driscoll, N Ronan, T O’Leary, L Mafi, Denis Hurley.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/0113/1224287410200.html

I suppose he was at their training session yesterday and saw their formations, no great surprise ont he team anyway, except maybe Sammy for Mafi and Stringer for O'Leary. I'm happy with both.

Quint2010

pappyodaniel wrote: »

Any word on Toulon's starting XV? Hope on hope Dr Felipe is playing at 10.

Word around the campfire is that Wilko will be at ten, Dr. Phil at 12..

CouchSmart

pappyodaniel wrote: »

Any word on Toulon's starting XV? Hope on hope Dr Felipe is playing at 10.

Not really. Thornley suggests a 10 - 12 of Wilkinson and Contepomi, a best of both worlds. If Wilkinson starts it's a big sign that Toulon are really out to win it.

Toulon started a fairly 2nd string pack against Racing last weekend, that might be an indicator, who knows.

phog

A comparison from the 4 pool games.

Munster scored 99points, conceeded 76 points, average points per game is 24.75, average points conceded per game is 19
Toulon scored 94points, conceeded 89 points, average points per game is 23.5, average points conceded per game is 22.25

Munster have scored 12 tries and conceeded 5
Toulon have scored 9 tries and conceeded 10

Would hate to check how many drop goals Toulon have scored.

CouchSmart

phog wrote: »

Munster have scored 12 tries and conceeded 5
Toulon have scored 9 tries and conceeded 10

If you remove Munster's walloping of a very poor and seemingly disinterested Toulon:

Munster have scored 7 tries and conceeded 4
Toulon have scored 8 tries and conceeded 5

Perhaps tells an interesting story?

conf101

CouchSmart wrote: »

If you remove Munster's walloping of a very poor and seemingly disinterested Toulon:

Munster have scored 7 tries and conceeded 4
Toulon have scored 8 tries and conceeded 5

Perhaps tells an interesting story?

Not really. You can only beat what's in front of you.

The Rooster

Toulon are some team for chopping and changing.

In their 4 HC matches:

0 players started all 4 games
9 players started 3 games
3 different full backs started
4 different centre pairings started
4 different hookers started
4 different lock partnerships
4 props had 2 starts each

Not easy to know what their first team is!

CouchSmart

conf101 wrote: »

Not really. You can only beat what's in front of you.

I wasn't really talking about Munsters win over Toulon. More that if you take it away both teams have a very similar record.

davidpfitz

CouchSmart wrote: »

If you remove Munster's walloping of a very poor and seemingly disinterested Toulon:

I suspect they were more likely to be uninterested than disinterested.

CouchSmart

davidpfitz wrote: »

I suspect they were more likely to be uninterested than disinterested.

They mean the same thing. I suspect you are just trying to be pedantic.

TheHighRoad

Munster seem to be in the exact position Leinster were in just after 2009 and look how that turned out.I can see Munster getting a BP win against a Toulon side who have admitted that European Rugby is not their priority. But further than that I can see Munster going on to win the HC with some scrappy rugby grinding out the win the old fashioned way.

CouchSmart

TheHighRoad wrote: »

Munster seem to be in the exact position Leinster were in just after 2009 and look how that turned out.I can see Munster getting a BP win against a Toulon side who have admitted that European Rugby is not their priority. But further than that I can see Munster going on to win the HC with some scrappy rugby grinding out the win the old fashioned way.

Leinster had 3 wins out of 4, Munster only have 2 wins so I fail to see the comparison really.

I agree that Munster will win this weekend and get out of their group. Going on to win the whole thing might be stretching it a bit much though.

The Rooster

CouchSmart wrote: »

They mean the same thing. I suspect you are just trying to be pedantic.

They don't actually.

uninterested is the opposite of interested.

disinterested means without any self interest or without personal bias.

But disinterested is so commonly used incorrectly that its becoming accepted as meaning uninterested.

CouchSmart

The Rooster wrote: »

They don't actually.

uninterested is the opposite of interested.

disinterested means without any self interest or without personal bias.

But disinterested is so commonly used incorrectly that its becoming accepted as meaning uninterested.

Rugby forum and all that but for the sake of clarity. Disinterested was the original usage, uninterested then came in and people wanted to use that instead. Both are fine.

—Usage note
Disinterested and uninterested share a confused and confusing history. Disinterested was originally used to mean “not interested, indifferent”; uninterested in its earliest use meant “impartial.” By various developmental twists, disinterested is now used in both senses. Uninterested is used mainly in the sense “not interested, indifferent.” It is occasionally used to mean “not having a personal or property interest.”
Many object to the use of disinterested to mean “not interested, indifferent.” They insist that disinterested can mean only “impartial”: A disinterested observer is the best judge of behavior. However, both senses are well established in all varieties of English, and the sense intended is almost always clear from the context.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/disinterested

phog

CouchSmart wrote: »

If you remove Munster's walloping of a very poor and seemingly disinterested Toulon:

Is that why they scored an early try, targeted ROG off the ball and got a YC for taking out a player, bring on Wilkinson to try and turn the game, seems to me they had some interest in winning.

CouchSmart

phog wrote: »

Is that why they scored an early try, targeted ROG off the ball and got a YC for taking out a player, bring on Wilkinson to try and turn the game, seems to me they had some interest in winning.

OK.

Quint2010

TheHighRoad wrote: »

Munster seem to be in the exact position Leinster were in just after 2009 and look how that turned out.I can see Munster getting a BP win against a Toulon side who have admitted that European Rugby is not their priority. But further than that I can see Munster going on to win the HC with some scrappy rugby grinding out the win the old fashioned way.

If Munster got a bonus point win i would make them favourites for the whole competition. But you would get good odds for the bookies on them getting that. I heard a quote from O'Connell this morning..."This sunday is it. There is no next week.". Ominous for Toulon..

The Rooster

Quint2010 wrote: »

If Munster got a bonus point win i would make them favourites for the whole competition. But you would get good odds for the bookies on them getting that. I heard a quote from O'Connell this morning..."This sunday is it. There is no next week.". Ominous for Toulon..

Not quite the same thing, but currently Munster are 6/1 to win by 10 points or more with PP

Quint2010

The Rooster wrote: »

Not quite the same thing, but currently Munster are 6/1 to win by 10 points or more with PP

I am definately going to have some of that...

Podge_irl

TheHighRoad wrote: »

But further than that I can see Munster going on to win the HC with some scrappy rugby grinding out the win the old fashioned way.

You must be watching a different Munster from me.

I would be surprised if Munster win this weekend, though not shocked given it is Munster we're talking about after all. They're in disarray though and as soon as they meet a semi-competent team (Tououse, Leinster etc) they're going to lose.

donfers

Podge_irl wrote: »

You must be watching a different Munster from me.

I would be surprised if Munster win this weekend, though not shocked given it is Munster we're talking about after all. They're in disarray though and as soon as they meet a semi-competent team (Tououse, Leinster etc) they're going to lose.

i disagree with the last sentence

disarray = top of your league and heineken cup destiny in your hands, you hold munster to very high standards

as for meeting toulouse and leinster, i would favour whoever had home advantage, it's absolutely huge in the heineken cup and what a lot of leinster fans fail to take into account is 4 of their 5 wins in a row against Munster have come in Dublin....it's dreadfully unfair that even when Munster get a home draw, that if they are drawn against Leinster they will be effectively away

thomond2006

Toulon squad (taken from RCT website):

Avants :
Sébastien BRUNO
Kris CHESNEY
Joe EL ABD
Laurent EMMANUELLI
Juan-Martin FERNANDEZ LOBBE
Carl HAYMAN
Davit KUBRIASHVILI
Mehdi MERABET
Jean-Charles ORIOLI
Christophe SAMSON
Dean SCHOFIELD
George SMITH
Saimone TAUMOEPEAU
Joe VAN NIEKERK (Cap.)

Arrières :
Fotunuupule AUELUA
Felipe CONTEPOMI
Rory LAMONT
Benjamin LAPEYRE
Christian LOAMANU
Gabiriele LOVOBALAVU
Laurent MAGNAVAL
Geoffroy MESSINA
Pierre MIGNONI
Paul SACKEY
Jonny WILKINSON
Rudi WULF.

Jocelino Suta, Toulon's lock, has been suspended for 3 weeks so he won't feature.

It's impossible to predict the lineup, as a poster indicated they have done a lot of rotating. They are also restricted by the kolpak ruling, which limits the number of non EU (and non SA and non Pacific Islands) players in matchday squads. I don't really understand it myself. But I'll try to find out! :pac:

Also thank you phog for stealing my thunder, had a brilliant thanks whoring match preview lined up for the OP. It's now relegated to the middle pages! :eek:

Podge_irl

donfers wrote: »

i disagree with the last sentence

disarray = top of your league and heineken cup destiny in your hands, you hold munster to very high standards

I do yes, because they've set very high standards for themselves. They've had a comparatively easy run so far in the ML and regardless of being top they haven't set the world alight. Their play is stodgy and they look like they could be exposed quite easily by a top team.
Their HEC destiny is in their hands, but they're still only 2/4 and have yet to travel away to France.

I'm not so much basing the comment on their results, more on their performances that I've seen (which hasn't been all of them). They just don't look comfortable.

Quint2010

donfers wrote: »

i disagree with the last sentence

disarray = top of your league and heineken cup destiny in your hands, you hold munster to very high standards

as for meeting toulouse and leinster, i would favour whoever had home advantage, it's absolutely huge in the heineken cup and what a lot of leinster fans fail to take into account is 4 of their 5 wins in a row against Munster have come in Dublin....it's dreadfully unfair that even when Munster get a home draw, that if they are drawn against Leinster they will be effectively away

You make a valid point about home advantage being key in Leinsters dominance of Munster. But the se cond part of your point is flawed. I mean would Munster have to play in Dublin if they were drawn at home to Leinster?

CIARAN_BOYLE

Quint2010 wrote: »

You make a valid point about home advantage being key in Leinsters dominance of Munster. But the se cond part of your point is flawed. I mean would Munster have to play in Dublin if they were drawn at home to Leinster?

In the semi final of the HEC the game would be played in the Aviva since the rules say (I'm not sure but I believe) a stadium in the territory covered by the union of the team that came out of the hat first that is not the official home stadium of either team.

At least thats my understanding of the rules for the HEC semi final.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a HEC QF or ML semi final or final in the Aviva

SomeFool

Quint2010 wrote: »

You make a valid point about home advantage being key in Leinsters dominance of Munster. But the se cond part of your point is flawed. I mean would Munster have to play in Dublin if they were drawn at home to Leinster?

In the quarters, no but in the semis, yes. Either way if it were to happen I suspect money would be king and the game would be played in the Aviva.

donfers

lads, I agree with you that Munster haven't been playing great rugby this season but it's all about results, don't they say that it's the sign of a good side if they play badly and win?


about the playing in dublin, if we meet leinster in a semi-final and are drawn at home (as has happened twice already) it will be played at Lansdowne

if we draw leinster at home in the quarter-final i'd like to think it would be thomond park but no doubt the media and the irfu would try to pressure munster into having the game at a bigger venue "for the fans" (nothing to do with cash), maybe calling them cowards etc. if they didn't relent.....i'd hope munster would stick to their guns if this ever happened as teams work hard to get a home draw and certainly earn it..............if they wanted a bigger venue, then why not have a word with the gaa and move the fixture just down the road to the gaelic grounds (anyway all hypothetical and unlikely to be an issue this year)

Quint2010

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

In the semi final of the HEC the game would be played in the Aviva since the rules say (I'm not sure but I believe) a stadium in the territory covered by the union of the team that came out of the hat first that is not the official home stadium of either team.

At least thats my understanding of the rules for the HEC semi final.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a HEC QF or ML semi final or final in the Aviva

Yeah thats my understanding too. But could Munster not play a home semi in one of the GAA grounds? Pairc ui Chaoimh or Semple Stadium? By going for the money, if they were drawn against Leinster, they would be putting themselves at a disadvantage as you rightly say.

TheHighRoad

donfers wrote: »

disarray = top of your league and heineken cup destiny in your hands, you hold munster to very high standardsas for meeting toulouse and leinster, i would favour whoever had home advantage, it's absolutely huge in the heineken cup and what a lot of leinster fans fail to take into account is 4 of their 5 wins in a row against Munster have come in Dublin....it's dreadfully unfair that even when Munster get a home draw, that if they are drawn against Leinster they will be effectively away

The only game where Munster had home advantage and played in Dublin was the HC Semi, and Munster chose themselves to move it to Croke Park for revenue!Both the teams were just as unfamilar with Croke Park and the support was more in favour of Munster than Leinster. I'd hardly call that a home game for Leinster. And besides considering the manner of the victory in that game (and the other ones)I find it very hard to believe that the venue played a factor at all. For all the other games Leinster were fixtured to have home advantage or earned it (ML semi).

twinytwo

CouchSmart wrote: »

Leinster had 3 wins out of 4, Munster only have 2 wins so I fail to see the comparison really.

I agree that Munster will win this weekend and get out of their group. Going on to win the whole thing might be stretching it a bit much though.

I personally see a toulouse/ leinster final myself.. assuming they dont meet before hand.

But if munster were to somehow end up there im not going to complain:o

some_dose

Lads this is going a bit OT. Any chance we could discuss the incredibly important match that is actually coming up this Sunday?

I think that far from a spectacle, we will be resigned to a turgid affair with Munster hopefully just snatching it. Munster by 5 (crosses fingers)

Ciaran-Irl

thomond2006 wrote: »

Juan-Martin FERNANDEZ LOBBE
Carl HAYMAN
Felipe CONTEPOMI
Rudi WULF.

They are also restricted by the kolpak ruling, which limits the number of non EU (and non SA and non Pacific Islands) players in matchday squads. I don't really understand it myself. But I'll try to find out! :pac:

If I remember correctly, the Kolpak ruling is an agreement that the EU has with a number of countries on work permits. It means that you can have an unlimited number of Pacific Islanders or South Africans on a European team.

Other than that, the limit is 2 non European, non Kolpak players in any match squad. George Smith has a Tongan Passport, so I think that Toulon can only play two of the players above. I could be wrong about 2 - might be 3?

This is all from a vague recollection.

It looks certain that Hayman will play, but I'm going to make a wild prediction and say that Munster's scrum will be ok at the weekend, assuming Thornley is wrong and Hayes doesn't start. Munster would cope better against a tall, powerful tighthead. It is the small, squat, square fellahs that cause them the most trouble.

SomeFool

TheHighRoad wrote: »

The only game where Munster had home advantage and played in Dublin was the HC Semi, and Munster chose themselves to move it to Croke Park for revenue!Both the teams were just as unfamilar with Croke Park and the support was more in favour of Munster than Leinster. I'd hardly call that a home game for Leinster. And besides considering the manner of the victory in that game (and the other ones)I find it very hard to believe that the venue played a factor at all. For all the other games Leinster were fixtured to have home advantage or earned it (ML semi).

In the HEC semis your home games can't be in your home ground, there was no where else in Ireland suitable really. They played Wasps a few years ago in Landsdowne in the semis too.

twinytwo

Podge_irl wrote: »

You must be watching a different Munster from me.

I would be surprised if Munster win this weekend, though not shocked given it is Munster we're talking about after all. They're in disarray though and as soon as they meet a semi-competent team (Tououse, Leinster etc) they're going to lose.

lets not get too far ahead of ourselves... munster have been worse than ****e for alot of the season... they have one massive game in them. But to assume they are capable of beating leinster or toulouse is daft. Sure it may require them to play the way we know they can which as we know has not really been seen this season , but its not impossible

CouchSmart

donfers wrote: »

about the playing in dublin, if we meet leinster in a semi-final and are drawn at home (as has happened twice already) it will be played at Lansdowne

Don't the semi finals have to be in a neutral venue in the home teams country?

twinytwo

SomeFool wrote: »

In the HEC semis your home games can't be in your home ground, there was no where else in Ireland suitable really. They played Wasps a few years ago in Landsdowne in the semis too.

correct me if im wrong but last year toulouse played in the Muncipal stadium ie in Toulouse which they use for all their big HC and T14 games, and Biarritz only moved to the san sebastian because its a bigger stadium... essentially home semi finals

CIARAN_BOYLE

CouchSmart wrote: »

Don't the semi finals have to be in a neutral venue in the home teams country?

nominally neutral, ie it can't be the official home ground of either party. Also it has to be a certain size too.

twinytwo

CouchSmart wrote: »

Don't the semi finals have to be in a neutral venue in the home teams country?

Nope

SomeFool

twinytwo wrote: »

correct me if im wrong but last year toulouse played in the Muncipal stadium ie in Toulouse which they use for all their big HC and T14 games, and Biarritz only moved to the san sebastian because its a bigger stadium... essentially home semi finals

Stade Municipal is not Toulouses registered home ground, Stade Ernest Wallon is. Biarritz have been using San Sebastian for years, just like Leinster use Landsdowne.

CouchSmart

twinytwo wrote: »

Nope

I think you'll find you're wrong. Anyway it's hardly important.

Huge game for Munster. I feel that a loss could be a major point in Munster's history - perhaps leading to a big change in personnel.

irishbucsfan

It would be in Lansdowne. Any Leinster-Munster semi will be. No way the IRFU miss out on that pay-day

thomond2006

The Toulon players affected by Kolpak are: Hayman, Fernandez Lobbe and Contepomi. So Toulon must pick 2 of those 3. Lobbe was left out of the side that went to Thomond Park.

I just found that Rudi Wulf has a Samoan passport so he doesn't count in this. Same with George Smith, he has a Tongan passport.

I think they will pick Hayman and Lobbe, personally I would go for Contepomi and Lobbe. They won't want to play a wide game against us IMO hence going for Hayman to murder us in the scrum.

The side should look something like:
Emmanuelli, Bruno, Hayman, Chesney, Schofield, Van Niekerk, Smith, Lobbe;
Mignoni, Wilkinson, Sackey, Lovobalavu, Messina, Wulf, Lamont

Contepomi could have got an Irish passport, he was there for so long. Bet he's kicking himself over it.

some_dose

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

I'm going to make a wild prediction and say that Munster's scrum will be ok at the weekend

This.

More than anything else we need the scrum and lineout to function. Just look at how our inferior scrum away to the Ospreys cost us. If Mushy starts, he had better play like he did on the tour down under. The front 5 will need to be playing out of their skin, something I'm sure that Paulie's presence will help.

BoarHunter

I think Munster will do it. This match is far more important than it is for Toulon whose real goal is the Brennus. Munster have aways produced when needed ( perpignan last year ). this match has Munster written all over it. Toulon will fancy their chances but experience is on Munster side big time.

thomond2006

BoarHunter wrote: »

I think Munster will do it. This match is far more important than it is for Toulon whose real goal is the Brennus. Munster have aways produced when needed ( perpignan last year ). this match has Munster written all over it. Toulon will fancy their chances but experience is on Munster side big time.

I'm beginning to think this way too.

the knocker

Showdown at ok coral, Johnny V Ronan. There will be blood, can paulie keep his cool or is south of france no country for old men. Sorry munster men think this one is a bridge to far

some_dose

the knocker wrote: »

Showdown at ok coral, Johnny V Ronan. There will be blood, can paulie keep his cool or is south of france no country for old men. Sorry munster men think this one is a bridge to far

Your username is quite apt

Quint2010

CouchSmart wrote: »

I think you'll find you're wrong. Anyway it's hardly important.

Huge game for Munster. I feel that a loss could be a major point in Munster's history - perhaps leading to a big change in personnel.

The home drawn team in the semi final cannot play the match at their designated home ground but most choose another venue within their country to play the match ie Munster with Croke Park, Toulouse with The Municiple Stadium. Munster could choose the play a semi at Semple Stadium or Pairc Ui Chaoimh if they so chose