calendar farming

Dunedin

my annual rant against the slurry spreading season.

as the date arrives to allow spreading (tomorrow for midlands), once again the weather has broken...... the thoughts of ploughing up the land really piss me off :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

as a matter of interest, who is driving this calendar sh%t.... is it the Dept, the Greens or who?

5live

Dunedin wrote: »

my annual rant against the slurry spreading season.

as the date arrives to allow spreading (tomorrow for midlands), once again the weather has broken...... the thoughts of ploughing up the land really piss me off :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

as a matter of interest, who is driving this calendar sh%t.... is it the Dept, the Greens or who?

Europe. God bless their infinite wisdom:rolleyes:. It is public opinion driving this issue which is ok as long as it is driven by an informed public. Not some bearded sandal wearing hippies dreaming of a return to 1000ad. And the men are just as bad:mad:

John_F

its a complete and utter joke, lads in the office just bring out the umbrellas when it rains. How is this making sense like, oh last week was grand weather in theory but the date was wrong, today the date is ok spread away but the weather is gone to muck. paper never refused ink and thats where the problem is, i agree that we should not be allowed spread all year around, but there must be some common sense approach to the whole thing, have tanks full now and leave them flow over is it??? we have so much data on weather now with technology and long range 10 day forecasts are pretty accurate, can the dept not send out a public message when to spread and limit the amount to so many gallons per acre, people have storage now so people wouldnt be running out the whole tank in one go.

country is gone quare out from all this bureaucracy, lost all common sense

gkell1

5live wrote: »

Europe. God bless their infinite wisdom:rolleyes:. It is public opinion driving this issue which is ok as long as it is driven by an informed public. Not some bearded sandal wearing hippies dreaming of a return to 1000ad. And the men are just as bad:mad:

I know how those guys think,at least the ones driving scientific policy in areas such as farming or fishing,and while there may be sentiments towards star trek ideas of society or the hippie one you mentioned,the ones with the real influence are guided by different ideas, probably drive better cars than most here,enjoy a comfortable lifestyle and one thing is for sure,they are not bothered what you think of them as they generally look on the wider population as cannon fodder anyway,people who are necessary to pays their wages and things like that.They couldn't care less whether the Earth was flat,round or square but they do care that they are looked on as authoritative.

It is a bit rich of the moderator here to ask what scientific policy has to do with farming and then lock the thread before I replied,no doubt this reply will get me shut out altogether,but the people directing agricultural policy are now a lot different than the ones who probably sought a genuine even European playing field 30 years ago.The new breed look at global policies and the Irish hardly even count anymore, so like it or not,it means people on this island are going to start having to thinking on their feet and despite the brief love affair with property speculation,farming will come back big time,after all,when people stop worrying about what is in their bank account,the next thing is worrying about what is in the fridge.

The reason a lot of young people are in big trouble is not that they bought expensive houses unwisely,it was they were told that the value of houses always rise by virtue that the banks had thought they found a foolproof way of modeling risk -

http://m.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/17-03/wp_quant?currentPage=all

A gambler coming out of a casino doesn't ask the nearest pedestrian to help bail him out after losing the family home and assets but our government just did and while many offer explanations and excuses,the real reason is a very Irish one - 'out of sight ,out of mind',as long as everyone was doing well why bother rocking the boat,the people who really did the damage are long gone from the scene and the future generation pay the consequences.

Instead of adapting to a changing environment because of natural variations in weather or climate,the farmers like everyone else will end up fighting the belief in human control over global temperatures,they can call it the 'climate change bill' but it all boils down to the ridiculous belief that we can control the planet's temperature.Despite the controversy about fraud and the fact that every climate prediction that they made was wrong over the last few years,these guys won't change,the hiring policies of the big institutions such as NASA is not for rocket scientists but for more environmental lackeys.You might call them hippies but their policies are the ones that affect you and your families at the end of the day and expect even more rules and regulations that defy common sense.

I am an astronomer who works off interpretative astronomy in an era that pays lots of attention to harmless junk like time travel,big bang,black holes and all the other nonsense shoved down the throat of kids and adults alike,these same guys have now filtered down into climate science over the last few decades hence the lack of common sense.It would have been nice to discuss the wider issues here but men tend to think in a narrow way,the moderator here can't seem to see the connection I tried to make,I accept I may not be good enough to do it but I doubt if many could given the sheer volume of topics on the table.

Aren't hippies supposed to be content with little or nothing,live off their vegetable patch and live in a home without water and electricity and you might be describing a few families in future who found themselves on the wrong side of the Celtic tiger.

Sorry for using this thread and your response,after being shut out of the other thread it couldn't be helped.

5live

Tbh gkell1, this probably isnt the forum to discussing your issues. We have loads of issues with people,as you mentioned in your post, drawing down salaries while ignoring the adverse effects their lack of knowledge or insight into the issues cause but mostly keep it focused on agriculture. Other than a few s**t stirrers who occasionally visit to do a bit of trolling:o. Right now we have an issue where if slurry was spread yesterday the world would end with poisoning of the waterways and death of all life on earth. But between 23:59 last night and 00:00 today that threat was instantly removed:rolleyes:. Quite honestly, i personally hope all responsible WILL disappear the rest of the way up their posteriors and emerge into a bright new world:cool:

BeeDI

gkell1 wrote: »

I know how those guys think,at least the ones driving scientific policy in areas such as farming or fishing,and while there may be sentiments towards star trek ideas of society or the hippie one you mentioned,the ones with the real influence are guided by different ideas, probably drive better cars than most here,enjoy a comfortable lifestyle and one thing is for sure,they are not bothered what you think of them as they generally look on the wider population as cannon fodder anyway,people who are necessary to pays their wages and things like that.They couldn't care less whether the Earth was flat,round or square but they do care that they are looked on as authoritative.

It is a bit rich of the moderator here to ask what scientific policy has to do with farming and then lock the thread before I replied,no doubt this reply will get me shut out altogether,but the people directing agricultural policy are now a lot different than the ones who probably sought a genuine even European playing field 30 years ago.The new breed look at global policies and the Irish hardly even count anymore, so like it or not,it means people on this island are going to start having to thinking on their feet and despite the brief love affair with property speculation,farming will come back big time,after all,when people stop worrying about what is in their bank account,the next thing is worrying about what is in the fridge.

The reason a lot of young people are in big trouble is not that they bought expensive houses unwisely,it was they were told that the value of houses always rise by virtue that the banks had thought they found a foolproof way of modeling risk -

http://m.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/17-03/wp_quant?currentPage=all

A gambler coming out of a casino doesn't ask the nearest pedestrian to help bail him out after losing the family home and assets but our government just did and while many offer explanations and excuses,the real reason is a very Irish one - 'out of sight ,out of mind',as long as everyone was doing well why bother rocking the boat,the people who really did the damage are long gone from the scene and the future generation pay the consequences.

Instead of adapting to a changing environment because of natural variations in weather or climate,the farmers like everyone else will end up fighting the belief in human control over global temperatures,they can call it the 'climate change bill' but it all boils down to the ridiculous belief that we can control the planet's temperature.Despite the controversy about fraud and the fact that every climate prediction that they made was wrong over the last few years,these guys won't change,the hiring policies of the big institutions such as NASA is not for rocket scientists but for more environmental lackeys.You might call them hippies but their policies are the ones that affect you and your families at the end of the day and expect even more rules and regulations that defy common sense.

I am an astronomer who works off interpretative astronomy in an era that pays lots of attention to harmless junk like time travel,big bang,black holes and all the other nonsense shoved down the throat of kids and adults alike,these same guys have now filtered down into climate science over the last few decades hence the lack of common sense.It would have been nice to discuss the wider issues here but men tend to think in a narrow way,the moderator here can't seem to see the connection I tried to make,I accept I may not be good enough to do it but I doubt if many could given the sheer volume of topics on the table.

Aren't hippies supposed to be content with little or nothing,live off their vegetable patch and live in a home without water and electricity and you might be describing a few families in future who found themselves on the wrong side of the Celtic tiger.

Sorry for using this thread and your response,after being shut out of the other thread it couldn't be helped.

In no more than four lines, what is it that you are trying to say about what?
We are simple farmers, many with off farm job, with little time to try to filter out the core meaning of your rambling posts.

gkell1

5live wrote: »

Tbh gkell1, this probably isnt the forum to discussing your issues. We have loads of issues with people,as you mentioned in your post, drawing down salaries while ignoring the adverse effects their lack of knowledge or insight into the issues cause but mostly keep it focused on agriculture. Other than a few s**t stirrers who occasionally visit to do a bit of trolling:o. Right now we have an issue where if slurry was spread yesterday the world would end with poisoning of the waterways and death of all life on earth. But between 23:59 last night and 00:00 today that threat was instantly removed:rolleyes:. Quite honestly, i personally hope all responsible WILL disappear the rest of the way up their posteriors and energe into a bright new world:cool:

There are no sandal wearing hippies dictating policy,there are no wink and nod politics and forget about the agriculture community fighting the 'climate change bill',in the long run something like it will move through European politics and then trickle down into local politics.As the Irish lost whatever clout they had,I could probably tell you that the fight is already lost but ,like the moderator,you don't think the issues belong in a farming forum.Fair enough.

These things can be turned around but it needs people who can take a wider view and that I haven't seen,at least so far.Good luck to all here and again,apologies for using your previous response

gkell1

BeeDI wrote: »

In no more than four lines, what is it that you are trying to say about what?
We are simple farmers, many with off farm job, with little time to try to filter out the core meaning of your rambling posts.

Simple farmers indeed !,I read an article today and the very fact that it is being discussed is amazing for all the wrong reasons -

"They estimate that the target of cutting greenhouse gases by 28% in the next decade would decimate the national beef and dairy herd.
Herd numbers would have to be reduced to meet the targets because of the methane that these animals produce."

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0113/climate.html


The fact that a few scientists manage to convince you that humans can control global temperature through cow farts would look funny 20 years ago but these guys are dead serious and apparently so are the farming groups.

I don't deal with the climate issue directly,as far as I am concerned that is just a symptom,I looked at the actual scientific approach itself.To put it in simple terms,I don't look at the outward appearance such as the shape,model or color of a car,I look at how the engine and the gearbox are built and how they work together but unfortunately few can deal with science at that level,at least the way things are organized presently.From my seat,the issue of carbon dioxide/global warming looks like a Rolls Royce from the outside but is run on pedal power if you look at what is underneath the hood.That is the best as I can describe my position,take it or leave it.

I never met a simple farmer in my life,if I thought there were such people I wouldn't come here and post.If these guys can get you to reduce the national herd based on 'greenhouse gases' emitted by cows then good for them,I am sure they believe there are such people as simple farmers who will do their bit for saving the planet from the scorching heat of the last few years.As for me,call me rambling or not,I have to shake my head.

djmc

And I want to get carbon credits for the 1000s of tons of grass that I grow
that takes in all that co2 and turns it in to fresh air :rolleyes:

candor

gkell1 wrote: »

Simple farmers indeed !,I read an article today and the very fact that it is being discussed is amazing for all the wrong reasons -

"They estimate that the target of cutting greenhouse gases by 28% in the next decade would decimate the national beef and dairy herd.
Herd numbers would have to be reduced to meet the targets because of the methane that these animals produce."

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0113/climate.html


The fact that a few scientists manage to convince you that humans can control global temperature through cow farts would look funny 20 years ago but these guys are dead serious and apparently so are the farming groups.

I don't deal with the climate issue directly,as far as I am concerned that is just a symptom,I looked at the actual scientific approach itself.To put it in simple terms,I don't look at the outward appearance such as the shape,model or color of a car,I look at how the engine and the gearbox are built and how they work together but unfortunately few can deal with science at that level,at least the way things are organized presently.From my seat,the issue of carbon dioxide/global warming looks like a Rolls Royce from the outside but is run on pedal power if you look at what is underneath the hood.That is the best as I can describe my position,take it or leave it.

I never met a simple farmer in my life,if I thought there were such people I wouldn't come here and post.If these guys can get you to reduce the national herd based on 'greenhouse gases' emitted by cows then good for them,I am sure they believe there are such people as simple farmers who will do their bit for saving the planet from the scorching heat of the last few years.As for me,call me rambling or not,I have to shake my head.

Some interesting thoughts and quite relevant, you will find that there is always a hidden agenda when they go on about climate change and other such silly nonsense, just remember the al gore documentary, he had a hidden agenda.

gkell1

candor wrote: »

Some interesting thoughts and quite relevant, you will find that there is always a hidden agenda when they go on about climate change and other such silly nonsense, just remember the al gore documentary, he had a hidden agenda.

A more pragmatic approach is to get beneath the jargon.They discovered that the planet wasn't getting hotter over the last decade contrary to what their models predicted so they changed tactics,whereas 'global warming' would show a temperature rise in one direction they started to talk about 'climate change' instead where temperatures naturally fluctuate and that is how they got around the credibility problem that was emerging.

It still doesn't change their core idea or the question as to whether humans can control global temperatures and when men are faced with that question,they are inclined to sober up as clearly we don't have control and who would want to believe it.If they had stuck us with the idea of human control,if the temperatures went up in future they would say more needs to be done,if temperatures went down,they would say their policies were working so all-in-all it would have been a nightmarish outcome,not just for the farming community but ,at least from my point of view,a real issue of indoctrination and propaganda over education and genuine science.

Many here probably remember the hot summers of 1976-77 but at that time they were predicting global cooling although for most people,it was just a hot summer for good or for bad and no kids were made to feel our actions were causing different types of summers and winter like kids are today.

http://denisdutton.com/cooling_world.htm

The amount of money pouring into climate 'research' worldwide ,remember these guys produce nothing but opinions ,is probably larger than the value of agricultural export output of Ireland and as they influence the education system,it is only a matter of waiting things out until people come around.It still comes down to the question as to whether people by their actions or inaction can control global temperatures,not pollution or genuine concerns like that, but the fact that we even have to answer a question like that is already the greatest shame of all.

red bull

Ah well
To my mind we are told slurry is worth €30 per 1000gal.
Thats a lot of money when multiplied ?
A lot of import substitution as all other fertilizer has to be imported, produced by use of fossil fuels transported by fossil fuel.
let nature have its way let farmers recycle as they know best:D

candor

gkell1 wrote: »

A more pragmatic approach is to get beneath the jargon.They discovered that the planet wasn't getting hotter over the last decade contrary to what their models predicted so they changed tactics,whereas 'global warming' would show a temperature rise in one direction they started to talk about 'climate change' instead where temperatures naturally fluctuate and that is how they got around the credibility problem that was emerging.

It still doesn't change their core idea or the question as to whether humans can control global temperatures and when men are faced with that question,they are inclined to sober up as clearly we don't have control and who would want to believe it.If they had stuck us with the idea of human control,if the temperatures went up in future they would say more needs to be done,if temperatures went down,they would say their policies were working so all-in-all it would have been a nightmarish outcome,not just for the farming community but ,at least from my point of view,a real issue of indoctrination and propaganda over education and genuine science.

Many here probably remember the hot summers of 1976-77 but at that time they were predicting global cooling although for most people,it was just a hot summer for good or for bad and no kids were made to feel our actions were causing different types of summers and winter like kids are today.

http://denisdutton.com/cooling_world.htm

The amount of money pouring into climate 'research' worldwide ,remember these guys produce nothing but opinions ,is probably larger than the value of agricultural export output of Ireland and as they influence the education system,it is only a matter of waiting things out until people come around.It still comes down to the question as to whether people by their actions or inaction can control global temperatures,not pollution or genuine concerns like that, but the fact that we even have to answer a question like that is already the greatest shame of all.

I agree, people don't seem to figure that we have had snow before in a great amount, nice summers, wet summers etc.

This climate change is only a stick to beat people with so agendas can be met. I would to believe otherwise but it is slowly becoming apparent.

Some good thoughts on the matter. I would always seek to look at it without bias and at this stage it seems like utter rubbish.

gkell1

candor wrote: »

I agree, people don't seem to figure that we have had snow before in a great amount, nice summers, wet summers etc.

This climate change is only a stick to beat people with so agendas can be met. I would to believe otherwise but it is slowly becoming apparent.

Some good thoughts on the matter. I would always seek to look at it without bias and at this stage it seems like utter rubbish.

Thanks for the civil discussion,I would like to think that as an astronomer that this stuff is not entirely foreign to the farming community,after all,the first farmers in Ireland were astronomers as anyone who visits Newgrange in Meath will tell you,although the current crowd like to make out the monument was built by neolithic hippies,considering the organization, engineering, drainage, architecture and all the other things involved,these people were using the monument like a calendar among other things as the correct time for planting and reaping would be no less important then as it is now.I can tell you that the crowd today couldn't build Newgrange as in ancient times they used a different form of time reckoning than we do today and I assure you it takes more than sticking pegs in the ground and waiting for the shortest day of the year,these ancient people knew the problems and the solution so credit where it is due.

There are guys who go to work every day and think about nothing but how to continue to make people believe we can control the planet's temperature,they call it global warming,climate change or some other term and the way things are set up at the moment it is all about making up numbers,if enough scientists say it is true then it must be true sort of thing.They actually don't mind if you argue against climate change,in fact they encourage it,because it leaves the real problem untouched and that is the actual science approach itself,particularly relating to modeling and predictions which only started in the late 17th century with Newton.

I am not talking about a conspiracy or anything like that,the technical issues stand on their own and that is all that counts,it is human nature you are dealing with here and it is not too obvious why they would find it almost impossible to change to more balanced views of climate from the huge fuss they are making presently.It is hard to separate scientists who do a great job in innovations and things like that from the hard core group that is driving the climate agenda,as far as it goes,it falls along the lines where the scientists who believe humans can control nature instead of working along with it are the ones who are likely to push the idea of carbon dioxide and the Earth as a greenhouse.I would say we have about as much chance of stopping the Sun coming up tomorrow or the tides coming in as we have of controlling global temperatures and that is about as far as it goes.

The reason they would find it difficult to change their views is because of what is called 'peer review',something scientists hold more valuable than whatever it is that they are promoting.If you wish to qualify as a scientist you are not going to be accepted unless you are given the stamp of approval by the guys who came before you and they are not going to pass you unless you agree roughly with what they believe.Once you are accepted,you are not going to go against the very system that pays your wages,gives you your reputation ect so if all the scientists are on the same bandwagon singing the same tune about carbon dioxide,what are the chances of getting work as a scientist if you don't follow the idea.There is no real incentive to change direction and why should they if you can argue about 'climate change' as that always happens but call into question the validity of the peer review process itself and its patronage and then you are into something they didn't bargain on.I admit that my interest is a cleaner science,less indoctrination and more education and little to do with your community concerns but somehow it intersects in giving our kids a future where they can reason things out themselves.

Maybe the whole thing has moved along to a point where 'carbon dioxide' tax is just accepted as it has been drummed on for so long that it doesn't appear as foolish as it actually is,the fact that they wish to reduce the national herd on the flimsiest excuse is just another point of fact .It can and will be turned around but when so many are dedicated and well paid to promote an idea where they feel they can't lose,those opposing the ideology have to be twice as sharp and that I have not seen.I think it is a fair warning for your community and I leave it there.I hope it was interesting enough and thanks for allowing that as I mightn't be the best in at explaining things.

5live

I was reading last year that the variation in summers was due to the position of the jet stream over ireland. Too far north and we get hot dry summers ie spanish type weather heading further north. Too far south and we get more rain and cool summers. It is hard to escape so called experts always telling us that summers will always be hot and dry(2004 to 06) and then always cold and wet( 2007 to 09). The latest is that 'climate change' will cause 'fluctuations in normal weather patterns':rolleyes:. They just use whatever justification they can find to elevate their opinions. We only have accurate temperature figures for at most 200 years and CO2 for 60 years but they cannot be wrong. Keep up the fight gkell1

gkell1

5live wrote: »

I was reading last year that the variation in summers was due to the position of the jet stream over ireland. Too far north and we get hot dry summers ie spanish type weather heading further north. Too far south and we get more rain and cool summers. It is hard to escape so called experts always telling us that summers will always be hot and dry(2004 to 06) and then always cold and wet( 2007 to 09). The latest is that 'climate change' will cause 'fluctuations in normal weather patterns':rolleyes:. They just use whatever justification they can find to elevate their opinions. We only have accurate temperature figures for at most 200 years and CO2 for 60 years but they cannot be wrong. Keep up the fight gkell1

There are two separate issues involved ,one is just as important as the other and while the technical issues would be highly involved and tangled,the issue closest to readers here is probably human nature rather than nature itself.What the prediction/modeling agendas represent is empiricism rather than science,a particular way to approach nature and their conclusions in areas such as carbon dioxide and global temperatures are what you might call self-referential.For example,the only ideas that are accepted are the ones which keep people in jobs so take away the idea of human control over global temperatures and these guys see it as an attack on their empirical authority and their jobs.Why cut your own throat admitting the models failed when it is easier to pin it on some unaccounted for factor while still avoiding the central question as to why anyone would believe humans control temperature.

A person who sees an error will normally do the honorable thing and adjust but these people are neither honorable or dishonorable,they are unreasonable because you can fix an error,you can't fix science fiction.

The people with the best success,and they are almost exclusively those who reject computer modeling in respect to climate (modeling weather is fine),are those who rely on past records,if a La Nina event shows up,the tendency is for weather we have this winter and in other areas of the world,if an El Nino event happens they also know from past experience what weather to expect for that event.Nobody knows what causes these things including movements in the jet stream but they do know how the appearance of one event corresponds to certain weather.This is a long way from predicting what carbon dioxide will do or,looking at it from your community's point of view, some really dumb idea that the national herd has a detrimental influence on global temperatures.


I would urge your community to drop referencing the issue to carbon dioxide and shift it to what it actually does boil down to.There is an old myth that King Canute was so sick of listening to his servants heaping praise on him that he went down to the tide line and let the waves wash over him to prove he couldn't stop the tide from coming in,the modern version is the opposite in that some people are convinced that we have control over global temperatures,not whether the temperature is rising or falling for that has always happens but we can by our own action or inaction control the planet like a thermostat.