how are private law degrees regarded by employers?

lightspeed

Hi im currently doing a business and law degree in dit and after talking with a lecturer he mentioned how some students from even the top schools like trinity and UCD were not able to secure apprenticeships in recent times which from what ive been reading does not surprise me, but that got me thinking about if i should consider the LLB in Law in griffith college as that is awarded by the nottingham trent university which is apparently held in high regard in the Uk at least by top law firms from what ive read. So would irish law firms hold a degree from nottingham trent university in higher regard to a degree from an institute of technology or would they more likely consider it in lesser regard and assume i just bought a degree even though im sure they are aware that i would have sat the same tests and studied just as hard as a degree from trinity or UCD etc..
Also i only did ordinary in leaving cert and only got a D in maths so how much of a bearing would that make if in years to come i was to get a degree and a masters in law and took the FE1 and then tried to secure an apprenticeship?

Thanks

coylemj

If you have a law degree, why would any firm care what you got in maths in the Leaving Cert?

XxMCRxBabyxX

coylemj wrote: »

If you have a law degree, why would any firm care what you got in maths in the Leaving Cert?

Well from what I've found in talking to the big firms that LC points are still looked at in intern and trainee applications...

I think if you can show that the rest of your academic and other achievements are more than good enough then they can overlook your LC points. it's what i'm hoping for!

lightspeed

the lecturer I spoke to and asked about this told me how a friend of his had worked in Australia and had published books n law and went for a job as a lecturer and did not get the job based on her leaving cert results.so just worried about the competition given that I'm sure many people in years 2 come will have a degreeand masters from trinity and likes with better leaving cert than me.

kizzyf

Most places won't be concerned with your leaving cert or what type of degree you have whether it was a first or second you got or from what college. Unfortunately the bigger firms still place emphasis on leaving cert results and will specify what degree you are to have, not particularly in law.

I don't think there's as much snobbery attached to where you studied as there was. A few years ago I know some employers held Griffith degrees in lower regard but I think this has changed now.

lightspeed

Hi that's the interesting thing as to what justifys the extremely high price of Griffith college if if was at least at some stage held in lower regard to other colleges as dit with 20% tax relief is about €1700 a year and even with 20% tax relief Griffith is about €5000. they are even a more expensive than DBS.

NOIMAGINATION

As somebody who works in the legal sector, and studies in a UK university, I just wanted to say that Nottingham Trent IS NOT highly regarded by law firms in the UK, especially not 'top' law firms. I think if you just do well in the degree you are on now, and do the FE1's, you have as good a chance as most people (which in fairness isn't good!!!). A Master's would probably help your chances - but I don't think doing another law degree would help your case at all.

NoQuarter

Lightspeed you should be less concerned about where your degree is from and more concerned about getting experience while your studying.

For example, during the summer break between 2nd and 3rd year make sure you get an internship in as big a firm as possible.

Also for the whole of 3rd year i volunteered 1 day per week in a solicitors office and they offered me an apprenticeship while i was rejected from all the top firms.

Just get that internship and your halfway there.

Kosseegan

lightspeed wrote: »

Hi that's the interesting thing as to what justifys the extremely high price of Griffith college if if was at least at some stage held in lower regard to other colleges as dit with 20% tax relief is about €1700 a year and even with 20% tax relief Griffith is about €5000. they are even a more expensive than DBS.

Griffith is in the Private sector. The DIT is subsidised by the taxpayer. Private colleges charge what the market will bear. Try an economics course next time and learn about the law of supply and demand.

lightspeed

Well firstly I'm actually doing an economics class in a business and degree at the moment but it is a new subject to me. However the point or question I was making was if sone employers hold a degree from a private college in even lower regard to a subsidised college then what justifys the massive price difference? Why do people pay a few grand more for say a business and law degree in Griffith than in the likes of a business and law degree in Dit?

coylemj

NOIMAGINATION wrote: »

As somebody who works in the legal sector, and studies in a UK university, I just wanted to say that Nottingham Trent IS NOT highly regarded by law firms in the UK, especially not 'top' law firms.

OP, excuse the cynic in me but by any chance when you said '.....the nottingham trent university which is apparently held in high regard in the Uk at least by top law firms from what ive read' were you by any chance quoting something supplied to you by Griffith College?

lightspeed

hi heres is some of what it says on griffith college website about nottingham trent university

"Of the 11 most recent subject reviews, Nottingham Law School has been awarded ten ‘excellent’ ratings by the advanced management and legal training body for lawyers. Nottingham Business School is noted for its excellence in teaching among UK business schools having recently achieved a placing in the top ten of the Guardian League Table for Business Management Studies".

I could have sworn it said something a bit different a few days ago and i think the griffith college website is new and different to how it look a few dasy ago if im not mistaken which i may be. From what i gather from googling NTU theres seems to sometimes be confusion between University of Nottinghams Law School and notthingham trent university which are two different universitys. NTU is apparently the lesser of the two and does not have much of a reputation wheres the university of law school is highly regarded in the UK at least.

evercloserunion

coylemj wrote: »

If you have a law degree, why would any firm care what you got in maths in the Leaving Cert?

You'd be surprised at how often the LC come up in training contract and (especially) internship interviews, in one way or another.

coylemj

evercloserunion wrote: »

You'd be surprised at how often the LC come up in training contract and (especially) internship interviews, in one way or another.

I was specifically referring to maths results. I would have thought that prospective legal employers would care more about English and perhaps things like Latin, History and maybe a foreign language rather than Maths as from my limited knowledge of the legal profession I can't see how proficiency in maths would have any relevance to one's skills as a lawyer.

I understand that being reasonably numerate is a desirable feature in anyone who is going to potentially deal with conveyancing and probate but surely a pass in LC maths is all you'd need to prove your ability to handle basic financial matters?

lightspeed

thats precisely what id like to know, im not sure if i even got 200 points in the leaving cert , as i said i did all ordinary and only got a D in maths (forgot the caculator) so lets say if i got a degree and a masters and then even did the FE1 am i even in with a chance for an intern position? The internship i see advertised seem only to be a few weeks and from what ive read there are many people here working in legal offices and have degrees and cant get an apprenticeship. While i am aware of this i still think when things do pick up they should become somewhat less competitive as there should be more jobs on the market in the area of law. Would the leaving cert still have a large bearing in the UK if in the future i was to try and secure an apprenticeship there upon doing the LPC in the uk.
Thanks

XxMCRxBabyxX

coylemj wrote: »

I was specifically referring to maths results. I would have thought that prospective legal employers would care more about English and perhaps things like Latin, History and maybe a foreign language rather than Maths as from my limited knowledge of the legal profession I can't see how proficiency in maths would have any relevance to one's skills as a lawyer.

I understand that being reasonably numerate is a desirable feature in anyone who is going to potentially deal with conveyancing and probate but surely a pass in LC maths is all you'd need to prove your ability to handle basic financial matters?

They're just looking for overall LC results. No subjects in particular!

lightspeed wrote: »

thats precisely what id like to know, im not sure if i even got 200 points in the leaving cert , as i said i did all ordinary and only got a D in maths (forgot the caculator) so lets say if i got a degree and a masters and then even did the FE1 am i even in with a chance for an intern position? The internship i see advertised seem only to be a few weeks and from what ive read there are many people here working in legal offices and have degrees and cant get an apprenticeship. While i am aware of this i still think when things do pick up they should become somewhat less competitive as there should be more jobs on the market in the area of law. Would the leaving cert still have a large bearing in the UK if in the future i was to try and secure an apprenticeship there upon doing the LPC in the uk.
Thanks

You're looking at summer internships! it's traineeships for after the FE1s

evercloserunion

coylemj wrote: »

I was specifically referring to maths results. I would have thought that prospective legal employers would care more about English and perhaps things like Latin, History and maybe a foreign language rather than Maths as from my limited knowledge of the legal profession I can't see how proficiency in maths would have any relevance to one's skills as a lawyer.

I understand that being reasonably numerate is a desirable feature in anyone who is going to potentially deal with conveyancing and probate but surely a pass in LC maths is all you'd need to prove your ability to handle basic financial matters?

Oh, right, well that's not essential of course. As it happens, a good grade in maths can stand you in good stead if you spin it properly, with its emphasis on logic and problem solving (making it a good bit more useful than history and Latin IMO). But yeah, a lot of successful lawyers got terrible grades in maths AFAIK.

murrayp4

Nottingham Trent is ranked 38th in the UK for law apparently

NoQuarter

No make sure you get a summer internship between your second and 3rd year of your degree.

It will seriously stand to you when applying for a traineeship if you've done a summer internship with a big firm.

bob_lob_law

In the UK, Universities are ranked Oxbridge -> Russell Group -> ex-polytechs etc. etc. I'm not sure were Nottingham Trent is in this.

Ultimately it depends what type of law you want to do, if you want to work in the City you generally need 3 As at A-level and a 2.1 from a decent uni, relevant work experience, build an orphanage etc.

If you're are interested in doing the LPC you need to have studied English land law afaik, so you should check if that is an option for you. The LPC is a big financial commitment and it wouldn't really be advisable to do it without a training contract secured. There is a training forum on this website that may be of use: http://www.rollonfriday.com/

Tom Young

A degree is a degree.

You're still as green as the grass with one whether it be from Trinners .... where they are all winners .... or somewhere else.

Most students and graduates place great stock in their alma mater the reality is they annoy most people with that rhetoric and frankly it doesn't make you a better lawyer, etc. In fact, it makes most a larger pain in the ass.

Tom

lightspeed

i will of course try to obtain an intern position , im have way through my 1st year in a business and law degree but being realistic with a my leaving cert results and given the competition even for intern positions i would be surprised if i was in with a chance but i am determined to get into the area of law and whilst id like to qualify as soon as possible its certainly early days at the momment and i dont mind if it takes me that bit longer. If the leaving cert does become and issue i might just repeat up to 4 subjects again as i know you judged on your best 6 for college but cant imagine employers being that picky and surely would just look what i goty overall if i explained i repeated as although i onlt got a D3 at ordinary level i really dont want to have to do maths in the leaving again nor do i want to do irish as i i got a C1 at ordinary and reckon for me thats the best i can do at irish.

XxMCRxBabyxX

lightspeed wrote: »

i will of course try to obtain an intern position , im have way through my 1st year in a business and law degree but being realistic with a my leaving cert results and given the competition even for intern positions i would be surprised if i was in with a chance but i am determined to get into the area of law and whilst id like to qualify as soon as possible its certainly early days at the momment and i dont mind if it takes me that bit longer. If the leaving cert does become and issue i might just repeat up to 4 subjects again as i know you judged on your best 6 for college but cant imagine employers being that picky and surely would just look what i goty overall if i explained i repeated as although i onlt got a D3 at ordinary level i really dont want to have to do maths in the leaving again nor do i want to do irish as i i got a C1 at ordinary and reckon for me thats the best i can do at irish.

There's no point repeating just to get into one of the big 5! They are the only ones who look at the LC and if you can show that everything else you have done: college grades, extra work, achievements, etc. are good enough your points will be overlooked! Thats exactly what I was told when i asked about this last year!

Just work as hard as you can in college, and find ways of making yourself stand out from the crowd! that's way more important than your LC!

evercloserunion

lightspeed wrote: »

i will of course try to obtain an intern position , im have way through my 1st year in a business and law degree but being realistic with a my leaving cert results and given the competition even for intern positions i would be surprised if i was in with a chance but i am determined to get into the area of law and whilst id like to qualify as soon as possible its certainly early days at the momment and i dont mind if it takes me that bit longer. If the leaving cert does become and issue i might just repeat up to 4 subjects again as i know you judged on your best 6 for college but cant imagine employers being that picky and surely would just look what i goty overall if i explained i repeated as although i onlt got a D3 at ordinary level i really dont want to have to do maths in the leaving again nor do i want to do irish as i i got a C1 at ordinary and reckon for me thats the best i can do at irish.

Doing a business and law degree certainly gives you an advantage, commercial law firms love that.

Kosseegan

coylemj wrote: »

I was specifically referring to maths results. I would have thought that prospective legal employers would care more about English and perhaps things like Latin, History and maybe a foreign language rather than Maths as from my limited knowledge of the legal profession I can't see how proficiency in maths would have any relevance to one's skills as a lawyer.

You are an apprentice solicitor. Your master tells you to draft a civil summons to recover a clients business debt of €4,341.58 due on foot of an invoice issued on 8th December 2009. Your master is leaving for the District Court in half an hour and wants to the the summons with him and file it in the office while he is there. You are to calculate the interest due on the following basis
"the sum of the interest rate applied by the European Central Bank to its most recent main refinancing operation carried out before 1 January and 1 July in each year (hereinafter in this Regulation referred to as “the reference rate”) and published in the Official Journal of the European Communities plus 7 percentage points."

How much interest is due today? A calculator is allowed.

evercloserunion

Kosseegan wrote: »

You are an apprentice solicitor. Your master tells you to draft a civil summons to recover a clients business debt of €4,341.58 due on foot of an invoice issued on 8th December 2009. Your master is leaving for the District Court in half an hour and wants to the the summons with him and file it in the office while he is there. You are to calculate the interest due on the following basis
"the sum of the interest rate applied by the European Central Bank to its most recent main refinancing operation carried out before 1 January and 1 July in each year (hereinafter in this Regulation referred to as “the reference rate”) and published in the Official Journal of the European Communities plus 7 percentage points."

How much interest is due today? A calculator is allowed.

I'm not going scurrying for a calculator to work this out but that is Junior Cert stuff tbh. The most difficult part of that problem would be finding out from the quotation what the interest rate actually is, which isn't maths.

Nobody's saying that you will never need basic numeracy skills in a law office but things like the binomial theorem, integration by parts and implicit differentiation will, in all likelihood, not be a major focus of your job.

coylemj

evercloserunion wrote: »

The most difficult part of that problem would be finding out from the quotation what the interest rate actually is, which isn't maths.

Agree 100%. As maths problems go that is Junior Cert. stuff but the biggest challenge is deciphering the gobbledegook, you do not need to be a genius to do the maths.