Ceann Comhairle's Lack of Impartiality

the groutch · 12-01-2011 4:20pm #1

just watching leader's questions today the Ceann Comhairle interrupted Enda Kenny after two minutes, asking him to get to a question. Yet he allowed Brian Cowan 14 minutes of rambling and shouting in response.

how can the Dail be run with any sort of cohension if the opposition parties are being discriminated against like this?

Biggins · 12-01-2011 4:22pm

Good question - but this type of action is nothing new. O'Donaghue was classic at this type of one sided antic too.

irishh_bob · 12-01-2011 4:57pm

Biggins wrote: »

Good question - but this type of action is nothing new. O'Donaghue was classic at this type of one sided antic too.

dougals ( ardal o hanlons ) dad before the bull was even worse for siliencing the opposition , the cean comhlaire is baschically a team having the referre sticking the jersey for them , its one of the key areas where reform is needed

steelcityblues · 12-01-2011 5:02pm

I've argued for a while that the Ceann Comhairle should be someone from outside of party politics.

Biggins · 12-01-2011 5:16pm

steelcityblues wrote: »

I've argued for a while that the Ceann Comhairle should be someone from outside of party politics.

I agree but what body or who gets to choose that person?

steelcityblues · 12-01-2011 5:23pm

Biggins wrote: »

I agree but what body or who gets to choose that person?

Maybe a public vote with a shortlist, along with a fixed one Dail term.

Given the widespread complaints made about O'Donoghue and now Kirk, it really does not look good to continue to have a speaker from one of the main parties.

Pat D. Almighty · 12-01-2011 5:51pm

I agree, he was particular harsh on O'Caoilan (sp?)

Biggins · 12-01-2011 5:54pm

Stick Michael O'Leary in the chair and see how that goes.
Should be fun!

Seriously through, I don't know what is a viable workable suggestion.
I just know the present system is a joke.

Pat D. Almighty · 12-01-2011 6:13pm

Biggins wrote: »

Seriously through, I don't know what is a viable workable suggestion.
.

Jeremy Kyle....

P. Breathnach · 12-01-2011 6:21pm

The problem isn't necessarily the Ceann Comhairle (although I share the suspicions of many that some holders of the office have shown partiality in applying the rules). The Standing Orders of Dáil Éireann are highly restrictive. Opposition Leaders are supposed to ask questions, not make speeches, and the range of matters on which they are allowed ask questions is highly circumscribed. That does not dissuade them from grandstanding on the issues of the day.

There are many ways in which the Dáil might usefully be reformed, but I am not convinced that converting it into a version of a televised politics programme is one of those ways.

deise go deo · 12-01-2011 6:23pm

They could be appointed by the President, Elected by the Senate, Random selection from the Dáil
Halfbaked I know, but still more reasonable than the current set up.

paky · 12-01-2011 6:25pm

maybe a retired judge

the purple tin · 12-01-2011 7:14pm

^^^
Judge Judy.
Nobody will mess her about.

paul71 · 12-01-2011 7:20pm

paky wrote: »

maybe a retired judge

Or current judges, say a rotation system of the supreme court justices.

Sulmac · 12-01-2011 7:47pm

Does anyone know if the election of the Ceann Comhairle is done by a secret ballot of TDs? If not, that's one relatively minor change that could make them more impartial, or maybe I'm just being a bit optimistic.

I do agree with those above about being able to bring in someone above party politics though.

later12 · 12-01-2011 8:01pm

Sulmac wrote: »

Does anyone know if the election of the Ceann Comhairle is done by a secret ballot of TDs? If not, that's one relatively minor change that could make them more impartial, or maybe I'm just being a bit optimistic.

The Clerk of the House calls for nominations, at which point the Taoiseach issues his party's nomination, and the House votes on (and traditionally, for) his nomination.

maynooth_rules · 12-01-2011 8:07pm

I said it to my old man while we were watching the debate today, but he is a dreaful Ceann Comhairle. Time keeping is so important to them. If the debate went on until 8 tonight then so be it. They are well payed for it and are off more days than they work. Im sick of hearing him interupting giving out about time. It makes a mockery of politics in this country.

maynooth_rules · 12-01-2011 8:11pm

Pat D. Almighty wrote: »

I agree, he was particular harsh on O'Caoilan (sp?)

I am glad he just kept ignoring him. Every 20 seconds all you heard was this voice saying get to the question.

Eliot Rosewater · 12-01-2011 8:21pm

The Speaker of the House of Commons has to have cross-party support to be elected. The member must be nominated by 12 people, of whom 3 must be from a party different to his. The majoritarian nature of the House of Commons is a key factor here: the general lack of coalition government means that it's usually impossible for the government alone to nominate one of its members. If Ireland had such a system, the 3 non-party nominees would probably come from another party within the coalition (for instance, the Greens), and so would do little to mitigate against the partisan nature of the office of Ceann Comhairle.

I don't know if the Dail has formal definitions for "government" and "opposition", but ideally might one stipulate that a deputy nominated for the Chair must receive support from, say, 6 members of the "opposition"? Such a method of election might dampen the favouritism.

paky · 12-01-2011 8:50pm

paul71 wrote: »

Or current judges, say a rotation system of the supreme court justices.

a serving judge wouldnt be allowed with regards to the separation of powers.
i would be in favour of a ceann comhairle from the opposition.
i dont see how iits in anyway democratic having the ruling party occupying the seat

later12 · 12-01-2011 8:56pm

paky wrote: »

a serving judge wouldnt be allowed with regards to the separation of powers.
i would be in favour of a ceann comhairle from the opposition.
i dont see how iits in anyway democratic having the ruling party occupying the seat

How would it be any more democratic to automatically assign the seat to a less popular party?

phantom_lord · 12-01-2011 9:06pm

paky wrote: »

i would be in favour of a ceann comhairle from the opposition.
i dont see how iits in anyway democratic having the ruling party occupying the seat

They have come from opposition before but I think people are being blinded here by their current opinion of Fianna Fail. It wasn't much of an issue before the current government became unpopular.

Anyway, it's not really that significant in real terms at the end of the day. Little of any great importance happens in the Dáil, opposition parties getting interrupted isn't going to make much of a difference.

paky · 12-01-2011 9:07pm

later10 wrote: »

How would it be any more democratic to automatically assign the seat to a less popular party?

it wouldnt. the ruling party should just be excluded from nominating a ceann comhairle

LostinBlanch · 12-01-2011 11:52pm

irishh_bob wrote: »

dougals ( ardal o hanlons ) dad before the bull was even worse for siliencing the opposition , the cean comhlaire is baschically a team having the referre sticking the jersey for them , its one of the key areas where reform is needed

He was the worst I'd ever seen. An absolute disgrace not even the slightest pretence of any impartiality. Good riddance to him and his tribalism.

I strongly disagree with phantom lord.

phantom_lord wrote:

They have come from opposition before but I think people are being blinded here by their current opinion of Fianna Fail. It wasn't much of an issue before the current government became unpopular.

Looking at the reference's to O'Hanlon and O'Donoghue, it's been an issue for a long time, moreso than just the current waster incumbent.

phantom_lord wrote:

Anyway, it's not really that significant in real terms at the end of the day. Little of any great importance happens in the Dáil, opposition parties getting interrupted isn't going to make much of a difference.

Well isn't that the problem right there? So why not go the whole hog and abolish the Dáil then seeing as little of any great importance happens there?

phantom_lord · 13-01-2011 12:55am

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Well isn't that the problem right there? So why not go the whole hog and abolish the Dáil then seeing as little of any great importance happens there?

I meant in the chamber itself. Most of the oppositions speeches are just about trying to make sound bites for the news.

Liam Byrne · 13-01-2011 1:19am

phantom_lord wrote: »

I meant in the chamber itself. Most of the oppositions speeches are just about trying to make sound bites for the news.

Given that they'll be shot down by any means possible (including witholding by-elections) by the government, what else do you suggest that they do ?

They're only relegated to "soundbytes for the news" because the government refuses point-blank to accept any criticism or face facts.

Cowen could nearly have stayed at home with Ahern for the past year and RTE could have run a VT of him saying "I don't accept that" every day as Oireachtas Report.

Wide Road · 13-01-2011 3:21am

When I think back over the Ceann Comhairle's over the last number of years I have to mention Sean Treacy from Clonmel. A gentleman that helped people from all parties but left The Labour Party (I know it's funny now) over a condom. He served a couple of terms as Ceann Comhairle.

amacachi · 13-01-2011 4:45am

Pat D. Almighty wrote: »

Jeremy Kyle....

How is putting something on the end of it going to help matters?

Biggins · 13-01-2011 8:32am

Maybe they should all select John Hume.
I know he wouln't do it (just like run for President) but if there was one person that came across as a long hard honerable worker for the people, its him.
We need many sitting in the Dail of his calibre, not just in the CC chair though.

the_barfly1 · 13-01-2011 9:05am

The job really shouldn't be given to any TD in my opinion, its not what the public elected them to do! Open the job up to the public, allow anyone to apply.
Hell, I'd do a better job than the looh laah thats there at the moment. And wouldn't be afraid to stick it to anyone who's dodging questions! A chair is supposed to mediate and encourage debate after all, which is something we see far too little of in Dáil Éireann.

Biggins · 13-01-2011 9:11am

Question - and I apologise if this side-tracks this thread for a moment.

Supposing whoever sits in the chair tells someone to "Leave the Dail" for not obeying the rules
...And that person refuses to go - and either sits there or stands up and keeps on going.

Who can then force the person to physically leave?

Just wondering because I read somewhere, some time, that the Gardi can't enter the Dail - is that right?

P. Breathnach · 13-01-2011 9:46am

Biggins wrote: »

...
Supposing whoever sits in the chair tells someone to "Leave the Dail" for not obeying the rules
...And that person refuses to go - and either sits there or stands up and keeps on going.

Who can then force the person to physically leave?
...

It's not a matter of supposing: this sort of thing actually happens from time to time. Some politicians like grandstanding.

A member can be suspended only by a vote of the entire Dáil, not a sole decision of the Ceann Comhairle. If a member is suspended and refuses to leave the house, the Dáil is briefly adjourned, and the Ceann Comhairle calls on the Captain of the Guard to remove the member. The Captain of the Guard is an officer of the Dáil, and therefore a servant of the Ceann Comhairle.

Because such grandstanding is a ritual, the game is complete when the house is suspended, and I do not think the Captain of the Guard has ever had to engage in a physical struggle with a suspended TD.

Frankly, I think events like this confirm my view that our politicians (of all parties) have effectively conspired to devalue our parliament.

paul71 · 13-01-2011 6:25pm

paky wrote: »

a serving judge wouldnt be allowed with regards to the separation of powers.
i would be in favour of a ceann comhairle from the opposition.
i dont see how iits in anyway democratic having the ruling party occupying the seat

There is a good point contained within this regarding the segration of powers. The CC is a member of the house and has a casting vote, if this were to be removed and instead of being member of the house he were a supervisor of the house serving as a member of the judicury with powers on procedures rather than resolution of hung votes the separtion of duties would be clear and impartiality ensured. Thoughts?

Solair · 14-01-2011 1:06am

Why not just have a directly elected Ceann Comharile ?

All you'd have to do is run the elections simultaneously with the Presidential Election. Two ballot papers and two lists of candidates. It's a very significant office and arguably more influential than the president.

The person with the highest vote becomes CC and the person with the 2nd highest vote becomes Leas CC.

7 year term, decent salary and apolitical like the President.

The casting vote is unnecessary. If there's a hung vote in the Dail, perhaps the Seanad should have a casting vote i.e. a majority in favour = 1 vote in the Dail ?

Ceann Comhairle's Lack of Impartiality

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