Muslim/Christian dating...advice?

cvbn

Hi all!

I would love a bit of advice...I'm a Irish girl in her mid twenties dating a non Irish Muslim man of a similar age, we've been together for under a year but we get on brilliantly and I love him to bits. I'm not at all religious and he's not at all that religious, however he is a lot more devout when in his home country. In an ideal world things would be perfect but lately the issue of what is going to happen to us in the long run has been forced upon us by external events. When we discussed it my boyfriend stated that he'd like me to move back to his homeland with him in two years time when our current work obligations in Ireland are finished. I would consider moving with him. However, I recently met a member of his family for the first time (they all live abroad) who started telling me how he thinks all white women are "gold-diggers" who always divorce men. He also made derogatory comments about the way that I was dressed (unfairly as I was wearing jeans and a top that wasn't low cut) and told me that whilst he liked me, he'd like me more if I wasn't white and blonde. When I talked to my boyfriend (who was there when he said this stuff), he just pointed out that those were his brother's beliefs and not his. Which is true.

Yet, naturally enough I suppose I can't get those comments out of my head, especially as this person was in his 20's and raised in the US so I expected him to be the least likely member of my boyfriends family to have a problem with us dating. I suppose I'm now questioning our future together as if I move to his homeland I'm likely to receive a similar reaction from other members of his family. Similarly, when we talked about having children way way in the future my boyfriend stated that his family would insist that they were raised as Muslim. I suppose I'm wondering if I'm just putting myself in the line for a horrible shock down the line if I stay with him? he really is a great guy, but I have no interest in converting to Islam, nor putting up with being unfairly judged by people for things that I cannot change (my skin colour, religion, the way I live my life etc). I wish we could just stay in Ireland together and be happy but he's spent the past 10 years away from his native country and understandably wants to go back.

I'd love some perspective on this as its a real head versus heart argument going on within me at the minute! Thanks guys

OP, to be frank, I would steer well away.
You are never going to be respected by his family and he is not going to stick up for you by the sounds of it. Imagine when you are all on your own in a strange country with no family support and all this going on all the time?
I'm sorry but if he wants you moving back to his country, insists on kids being muslim, insists on everything xyz, I don't think it's going to work out or if you tried, you'd end up in a world of trouble...
Next thing you know you'll be covering up and doing everything their way and miserable

Sorry but I'd suggest ending it

LegacyUser

cvbn wrote: »

Yet, naturally enough I suppose I can't get those comments out of my head, especially as this person was in his 20's and raised in the US so I expected him to be the least likely member of my boyfriends family to have a problem with us dating

I went with a Muslim girl who was raised in the US and in my own experience the bit that I highlighted above did not make for an easier time of it. We encountered negative and aggressive reactions from Muslims who were born and raised in the US.

Conversely I know of a similarly mixed-religion couple in the UK who are engaged to be married and by all accounts things work well for them. The respective families, and people on the street don't object to the coupling.

I cannot see a happy ending if you don't have his family's support, and intend to move to a country which is likely to be hostile to your involvement.

whatdoicare

I have to agree with bluewolf there.

I have known several women who dated Muslim men (two who married) and the guys were lovely but they are under HUGE pressure from family to conform to Muslim ways and unless you're willing to do the same it's really not going to work.

He seems to already be stating what is expected of him in the future, which is fair play from him (and fair on you) as one of my friends didn't know half of it (her fella kept alot of it from her) and got a serious culture shock!

She's now divorced from him and it was not an easy experience for her and she had an 18 month old child at the time. I think it was the child that finished it actually, as she had a boy and ex-husbands family made all sorts of demands on her from the day he was born - I think they tried to take him off her in the end. Her ex didn't try to help her at all!

Not saying that will happen to you but just be aware that once a Muslim male returns to his homeplace he seems to become ultra conservative and will expect you to do the same.

It is a bit like any child returning to his/her family, I suppose. Just think of all the college students here who never go to Mass (and brag about being Atheist) but will be up early on the Sunday morning dressed in their best if staying with Mammy and Daddy for the holidays. Your fella may be saying he isn't religious now - but wait until he gets in the door of his homeplace - a whole different story! Judging by how he didn't really defend you to his brother either, I wouldn't be holding my breath waiting for a defense when his whole family starts on you.

Sorry to be saying it to you - I know it's not nice to hear at all but it may be a reality for you so if nothing else, be prepared for it.

anucksunamun

God, I'm sorry to say I have to agree with the other two posts here. I have a few friends who are muslim, and of the few stories between them all of Irish/Muslim marriages, theres one happy ending among them, and thats the one where they still live here, far away from his intense family pressures, but visits from family have almost broke them up several times and its so sad to see, their so happy together when his family stays out of it for a small bit of time.

Not to be solely negative, but as bluewolf stated, his failure to stand up to his brother, to speak up on your behalf would really bode badly to me hun, imagine when all his family is around speaking to and about you like this and you knowing no-one but him, no family and friends around you.

Here's the thing though, only you truly know how strongly you feel about this man, the depth of your love for him, if it would be worth all that external pressure and possible heartache (not only for you but any children you may have, listening to comments about their mother constantly, and perhaps also being berated themselves), having to change an awful lot about yourself to 'fit in' in his home country (how you dress, what you eat, no alcohol to name but a few) and if your waivering on it, I would say you already know the answer hun, your just looking for us to confirm your fears. Good luck no matter what you do, Take care.

johnboysligo

Quran wrote:

Treat parents with honour & speak to them graciously & with humility

Family is very important to most Muslims.
Your guy is taught from a very early age that his parents and grandparents are not to be challenged. I can't pretend to know him or how he would behave in his homeland but he let his asshole brother talk down to you. He might not share his brothers view but he didn't challenge them after you hassled over your appearance.

ironingbored

I'm really sorry for the predicament you find yourself in but my advice would be to seriously consider finishing this. If you go back to this guy's homeland you run the risk of becoming trapped in a place where the Dark Ages seem positively radiant.

With Islam there is no compromise (as there might be in other faiths) despite what the PC brigade might say. If you go to his country, you (and any female children you might have) will be second-class citizens in a completely misogynistic society. You said yourself that his brother - despite being raised in the US - holds views incompatible with modern thinking.

My advice, and I'm sorry to have to say this, is get out now while you still can.

All the best.

LegacyUser

I would normally be totally against judging someone based on their religion, but in the case of non-Muslim women marrying Muslim men I would say avoid it if at all possible.

Just to give you some perspective on what can happen 20 years down the line, I have a friend with a Muslim dad and an Irish mum. Her dad wasn't really religious at all when he got married, but as he got older and had kids he became a lot more devout, and insisted on raising the kids as strict Muslims. My friend and her sister were never allowed have a normal social life or go out with friends because 'there might be boys there', and had to wear a headscarf from their mid teens. They had no freedom and no normal social interaction outside of school, and I know they found it very difficult. Their brother was allowed a lot more freedom but was basically raised with the attitude that women should obey men. They were all brought up in Ireland, it would have probably been a lot worse if they'd had to live in a Muslim country surrounded by his family. Her dad loves his kids very much by the way, and probably thinks he's doing what's best for them, but it's not a life I'd want for myself or my children.

I'm not saying that this will definitely happen, but from what you've said it sounds likely. He didn't stand up for you at all when his brother was disrespectful towards you, and in fact he doesn't seem to think there was anything wrong with him speaking to you like that. He expects you to live in his country and raise the children his religion. How would you feel if your daughter was forced to cover up her body and face every time she left the house, had none of the freedom or respect you grew up with and was treated like a second class citizen? And, I know this is way down the line, but when she grew up she would most likely end up in an arranged marriage with a man who took it for granted that women are subservient to men. If you had sons, would you find it difficult if they grew up with the attitude that you and all other women existed to serve men? Not all Muslim men believe this, but people are always shaped by the culture of the country they grow up in.

You don't say what country he's from, but a lot of Muslim countries can be hell for women. You could end up trapped there with a man who became a lot more religious when he moved back with his family, and not able to leave because as a woman in that country you have no rights to keep your children if you divorce. I know it's probably hard to be objective when you're in love, but if I were you I would start trying to come to terms with the idea of leaving him.

LegacyUser

OP

As someone who has been there, and broke up for the reasons outlined, there are a number of factors to consider. I found that over time my ex starting becoming more and more religious, and what started out as a great relationship deteriorated as I could not live with the conditions being set. I loved this man very much, but it all became too much and the life in the future was not going to be like how we had lived together to date.



1. Religion of children - this is usually non-negotiable for muslims, your children will have to be raised as muslim. It would be nigh on impossible to go against this in a country where he and you will be under pressure from his family on this point. Even things such as celebrating Christmas, having a tree in your home, are frowned upon for fear of 'confusion'

2. Alcohol and socialising - when we started going out together my ex liked to have a couple of drinks. Over time, as he became more religious, he decided that he didn't want to drink any more. No problem from my perspective, however over time he started saying it was important that I would also have to give up alcohol, no socialising in bars and no alcohol in our home - even if parents, friends others came around for dinner.

3. Dressing "modestly". In his home country this will likely be expected. Not necessarily headscarf, but forget about even v-necks, skinny jeans, going out for a run in your shorts. Just an element of being controlled that I wasn't willing to go through with.

There is more, but this is just a start. I know you may love this man, but I would urge extreme caution and talk through how he envisages your future life together so you have a sense of what it may entail now and can make a decision. The longer you stay in the dark the more painful the outcome may be.

Memnoch

OP,

Do not, under ANY circumstances, agree to go to his home country.

Marriages like this can work, but only if the two people are not religious and are willing to stand up with each other. I wouldn't agree with the other posters who say you should finish it now. I think that's unfair.

But you do need to have a serious discussion about your future together and you should have some minimum ground rules for this.

1) You will not move to his country. This is really key. Once you are in a Muslim country as a woman you (in many places) will have few rights and without friends or family to help you could easily found yourself in very difficult circumstances and surrounded by people who resent you.

2) Any kids will be raised with both parents viewpoints. If he insists on raising them as Muslim now, this is a big red flag of things to come not just with the kids but in terms of his attitude to you as well.

3) He has to agree to stand up to his family for you and not take any nonsense.

IMO the above three would be non-negotiable, and any sort of future ye have together has to be founded on this. In fact, I would even advise against visiting or letting your kids visit his country (depending on the place.) Turkey might be okay. Saudi Arabia? Pakistan etc? Big no no.

Love can conquer all, but only if BOTH parties are willing to fight for it.

Playboy

What country is he from if you dont mind me asking?

I think you need to have a frank conversation with him about your future. My advice is that if you want this relationship to work long term then put moving to his country out of both your heads altogether.

You are lucky enough to live in a free western democracy where you rights as an individual (and a woman) are protected under law. Do not casually move to his country where you might not have the same luxury. If he really wants to be with you then he will stay.. why should you sacrifice your life and family for him? He met you an Irish Girl in Ireland .. you didnt meet him in his country so why should he expect you to move.

Attitudes towards women are completely different in Muslim countries and how he treats you here might be very different to how he treats you there. His family will not let you marry unless you convert and your children are raised as Mulsims. The dynamic between parents and children in most muslim countries is completely different .. parents can (and will) dicate to their children how to live their lives well into adulthood and kids no matter what age rarely disrespect their parents wishes by going against them.

The only way it will work is if he stays in Ireland and his family have minium contact with you and your children. I speak from experience here both personal and from friends. I encountered unbelievable difficulties with a GF of mine who was from a wealthy and very westernized family who were not religious. But my experience hasnt been a patch on what girls I know who married muslim men .. it was a whole different ballgame when they moved back to the guys country and it did end all in tears. If I was you I would get yourself out there for a trip/holiday so you have some idea of what you are dealing with.

LegacyUser

Healthy working relationships are all about compromise, working together and mutual acceptance and him 'setting ground rules' doesn't sound like a prelude to such a harmonious existence.

Fair play to him being up front about it (as someone said above).

I do not know anything about muslim-christian relationships but I do know that based on the response you've gotten above, if you chose to marry this man, you'll pretty much be expected to 'obey him', even if this is ostensibly presented by him to you in terms of religious values, family wishes, customs, laws or what have you. The bottom line is you'll have to do what you're told and bloody well put up and shut up.

Not conducive to long term happiness in my humble opinion.

Have you seen 'Not without my daughter' with Sally Field? True story of a western woman who goes to some backward muslim country with her husband and hates it for reasons outlined above. You should probably check that out.

LegacyUser

Hi OP,

The relationship could work and only you know how much you love him. However I would advise you to read the information provided by the Bureau of Consular Affairs, U.S. Department of State: http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/tw/tw_931.html

It contains information they have gleaned over the years in regards to problems encountered when American women marry Saudi men.

It may not be applicable to you, but I think it'd be worth reading.

Pretty much agreeing with the rest of the replies. You know what, I've known MANY Muslim men and my time and I can tell you they are ALL cool and Western and drink alcohol and eat ham and go clubbing and sleep with girls....until they get married. Then everything changes. I have many Muslim male friends. Nothing against them. But I wouldn't date one in a million years. Muslim mentality is NOT compatible with Irish/European mentality. Unless you're prepared to convert and follow their rules, forget it. They will not change for you.

Beruthiel

cvbn wrote: »

he's not at all that religious, however he is a lot more devout when in his home country.

When we discussed it my boyfriend stated that he'd like me to move back to his homeland with him in two years tim

He also made derogatory comments about the way that I was dressed

and told me that whilst he liked me, he'd like me more if I wasn't white and blonde.

When I talked to my boyfriend (who was there when he said this stuff), he just pointed out that those were his brother's beliefs and not his. Which is true.

Did he tell his brother to mind his own business and not disrespect you like that?
If he said nothing to his brother, that is very telling.
In fact, all the quotes above are very telling. They are an indication of things to come should you continue this relationship and move back to his country. Consider them warning bells and don't ignore them because you care for this man.

Similarly, when we talked about having children way way in the future my boyfriend stated that his family would insist that they were raised as Muslim. I suppose I'm wondering if I'm just putting myself in the line for a horrible shock down the line if I stay with him?

I believe you are.
If you have children, they will be raised muslim. You won't be able to avoid that. And you will be expected to behave like a good muslim wife, especially if you move back to his home country.

Bottle_of_Smoke

A lot of muslim men see marriage as a fresh start where they become properly devout after having their fun in the west pre-marriage. And often this only becomes apparent after you tie the knot. Maybe he's the exception but from what you've said I doubt it.

I'd run a mile

Peanut2011

The alarm bell for me is that he did not stand up for you! A lot of Muslim countries have their own rules that West simply does not understand and if that works for them well all well and good.

However when you bring a person from one couture to a completely different one without not fully knowing what they are getting in to is a receipt for disaster.

He might be very good man and I do not wish to generalise, however time and time again there are examples of where the family takes over as those will be the kids continuing the family tradition.

Especially in countries where tradition and honour is very important, this makes it a lot harder to deal with unless you are willing to change. After all, you will be only one without support there.

Unfortunately these kind of mixes, where both families (not just people involved unless they will remove themselves from the influence) are not supportive always lead to a lot of trouble. Seen it too many times, not with just Muslim mix. It's people and culture mix.

Permabear

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Zen65

donegalfella wrote: »

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+1

Remember also Op that in many Muslim countries, men are permitted to have up to four wives at any one time. For you to move to your bf's home country places you at risk of being effectively abandoned.

I humbly suggest the differences between you and this man (and especially his family whose influence will grow stronger over time, especially back in his home country) are simply too great for the relationship to go anywhere.

Be at peace,

Z

Jaxxy

OP,

I can only echo the words of warning and caution of the posters before me. This is a huge, massive decision for you, and naturally, you're the only one who can make it. I'm not going to tell you that you should end the relationship, rather I'd implore you to seriously consider the consequences of relocating your entire life to your OH's country. You seem like a very sensible, together person, and I get the impression you won't make the decision lightly.

As has been said, there must be compromise for this to work. Understandably your OH would like to be with his family after so much time away, but surely your plans/hopes/future should matter equally? You love him, you want him to be happy and you want to be with him, sure, but why can't you do that here, in Ireland, in your own homeland? It is true what others here have said, women in these countries are second class citizens. Should you move there you can basically kiss the basic rights you enjoy without thought here on a day to day basis goodbye. Not only will you lose control over many aspects of your own life, but also your future children's, should you choose to have any. The attitude of your OH's brother is just the tip of the ice-berg I'm afraid, and probably quite tame in comparison to what you can expect from the rest of the family currently living in their own country.

Basically what I'm saying is that if there is no compromise now, then there certainly won't be any further down the line. I've seen it happen. My aunt married into a Muslim family, to a man she loved very much, and this thread is rife with tales of woe and warning so I won't elaborate too much, only to say that it ended very badly. For her.

Just be careful, and don't allow yourself to be talked into something you're not completely happy or comfortable with. Best of luck to you.

I am a friend

Someone here may be able to clarify - it just struck me that imagine you married him, moved to his country and had kids etc but something happened to him. Who is the 'head of the house' then?? Am I right in thinking it cold possibly end up being his brother / another family member?

gimme5minutes

OP if you go with him to a Muslim country you will end up in a situation where you are treated like sh*t by everyone, Muslim women already have it very very bad but your fate will be even worse as you are western white woman. You will get about as much respect as a dog in the street. You will be a prisoner in your own. If you have any sense at all you won't move to a Muslim country.

LegacyUser

I have on piece of advice. If his native country is Saudi Arabia I would stay well and truly clear. I worked in Saudi Arabia for a few years and it is a horrible, backwards place. You will be soon made wear the full hijab and will be essentially a second class citizen. Not only are you a woman in Saudi Arabia but you also not muslim or a Saudi and as such will be looked down upon wherever you go. Even in a hijab the men in Saudi Arabia intently stare at you and it got so bad that I had to get the windows tinted in my car because Saudi men would simply not stop staring at my partner at traffic lights even though she used to cover. I'd leave her in a shop for a few minutes and some guy would be aggressively pursuing her. Also, if you go there your husband can basically do as he pleases to you as Saudis are pretty much unprosecutable when the victim is not a Saudi. I'm not saying he would but its just a risk you should be aware of. I know of many woman who went over there to be au pairs and were beaten and not allowed to leave. You see thousands of Indians and Africans just sitting at the side of the motorways with no way to get to their homes (essentially ghettos) many of them get paid next to nothing so they are for all intents and purposes nothing more than slaves. It is a cruel, horrible place.

I really cant stress that enough.

Peanut2011

gimme5minutes wrote: »

OP if you go with him to a Muslim country you will end up in a situation where you are treated like sh*t by everyone, Muslim women already have it very very bad but your fate will be even worse as you are western white woman. You will get about as much respect as a dog in the street. You will be a prisoner in your own. If you have any sense at all you won't move to a Muslim country.

Sorry gimme5minutes but the generalisation of all Muslim countries like this will not help the OP. Also not every person is the same.

OP, I think you need to think long and hard about your decision. Research more on the country he is from as not all are the same.

Make sure you get to understand what is expected from you should you move to that culture and than you can make the informative decision.

Branding all Muslim countries as same will not help you. As we don't know the country in this case it's hard to know. All we know is that his family does not have respect for you, but that does not exactly mean his country will be like that too.

How many racists are in Ireland, but Ireland is still considered a friendly place and known for hospitality.

LegacyUser

Hi Op,

I also don't agree with the generalisations being made but I would certainly tread carefully, especially given what you've told us about his family.

I had a 4 relationship with a Muslim guy some time back and experienced none of these issues, I visited his family many times and his family were completely accepting and respectful of me. Before we eventually broke up we had discussed marriage and there was no question of me converting if i didn't wish to, we were planning to live in Europe so I didn't have the concerns about living in a Muslim country. My ex was open, modern and a non-practising Muslim so religion and culture were not major issues for us although they certainly play a part in a mixed relationship. He is married now and still the same guy, he hasn't become all devout and religous and is a great husband and hands-on father to his 3 kids.

That's my experience anyway, I would certainly thing twice about moving to his country where you may encounter problems with his family and would be without a support structure.

Elle Collins

cvbn wrote: »

Similarly, when we talked about having children way way in the future my boyfriend stated that his family would insist that they were raised as Muslim.

Nevermind Christian/Muslim whatever - this alone would send me running. You need to tell him you won't be having anyone dictating what way you raise your own fcukin kids! :eek: Sweet Jesus...

It says it all that he expects you to accept this. For Gods sake get out of this disaster-in-the-making.

savvyav

Hey I was in a similar situation but the difference was we were both living in Germany, so I had to decide whether or not to stay there permanently with him . In the end I came home, as I didn't really like the part of Germany we were living in, and he had to stay there another 2 years to finish his studies. There was also no way in hell I was going to move to his home country (Tunisia) after I read up on it, and the political regime that was in place at the time. Like your bf, mine was not devout, didn't go to the mosque or pray...but still had a copy of the Koran in his room and disliked me wearing short skirts (though no one really does that in Germany!), so read what you want into that... I would say definitely research his home country, maybe go on some expat forums to see what other western women are saying about it? Apart from the whole relationship thing, you need to look at the practicalities- do you speak the language, can you work there, will you need to marry him to get a visa to stay there, if you do that will you lose your Irish citzenship, etc? However, it sounds like his family aren't OK with the two of you being together, which will add extra strain to the whole thing...
It's a tough decision to make, but only you can make it!

Skuxx

OP I think things will be fine as long as your living over here but if you move back it'll be a different story! My dads sister is married to a Muslim bloke from Pakistan. They live over here and he really is a sound guy, our family get on great with him. Thing is in the 10 years they have been married my aunt only ever went to Pakistan with him once. he goes about twice a year but she never does as his family don't treat her well at all! I think that seems to be a common feeling through all the replies OP!

LegacyUser

Speak to him about it too.

It is a serious conversation and marraige isn't something to be undertaken lightly as it changes a lot regarding peoples rights and entitlements under the laws of the country in which you get married.

If he's serious about you, and it sounds like he is, he'll have this conversation with you, you don't need to bring marraige into it though! If he reacts very badly and unduly defensively during the conversation you'll have a better idea of where you stand and what it is you want to do.

I'm sure he dislikes the stereotypes that are applied to Islam and his country, just as the Irish Catholics disliked the stereotypes that were applied to them in certain countries only a few decades ago.

The stereotypes are damaging but he may be slightly less defensive with you if you explain that being from a background that is associated with extremism can seem daunting to the other partner.

Give him a chance to help you make a decision by opening it up for discussion. I'd bring up his obnoxiously racist brother towards the end though.

I'd have to agree with what others have posted also, going on the information you've given. I'd be very wary of moving to a country with such a low opinion of people of my race and beliefs. There's also no way I'd get married in a country where I'd be signing all my rights over to another person.

Best of luck with it all.

nickobrien1985

if my sister brought back a Muslim, I wouldn't let him in the house

Nevyn

nickobrien1985 Unhelpful and off-topic posting will get you banned from this forum.
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Thaedydal