ULSU and Fianna Fail

Jigga

Are UL students not concerned that the vast majority of their student union leadership are members of the biggest enemies of Irish students - Fianna Fail?

These FF members such as Derek Daly and last year's president Pa O'Brien share the conservative right-wing policies of this government such as reintroducing fees and other education cutbacks. Indeed, the current president Ruan Dillon McLoughlin's also has cosy ties with this cabal.

This explains the absolutely pathetic role the ULSU have played in opposing the reintroduction of fees - many of their leadership actually support their reintroduction!

Shame on them, could their party have done more damage to Ireland and it's young people?

mulner92

You may be on to something alright but i suppose everyone is entitle to their opinion, each to their own and all that. I don't think it will matter too much because they won't be in power regardless come march or april. I'm not voting for them anyway, i can promise that.

SarahBeep!

Firstly, Pa wasn't president last year.

Secondly, you have no right to discriminate against anyone because of their political preference no more than you do regarding their race religion or gender.

Thirdly, an IMMENSE effort was put into organising students for the protest right down to making sure people were fed, which was done by no other college, and making sure the shirts said ULSU instead of USI.
People went around begging people to sign up in lectures as well as the b1 canteen. The people who couldn't be bothered are the people who aren't helping fight fees.

TheTownie

I think the OP is a bit OTT but there is interesting info that I was unaware of.

I would appreciate if that point about SU Leadership being members of Fianna Fail could be comfirmed or denied?? Also what that term "members" practically means??

If they are against fees increases, they shouldn't be associated with those trying to implement them.

cson

Voted in by the student populace notwithstanding their political ties which ain't exactly hidden. So, no you don't really have a leg to stand on there tbh.

not bakunin

SarahBeep! wrote: »

Secondly, you have no right to discriminate against anyone because of their political preference no more than you do regarding their race religion or gender.

Thirdly, an IMMENSE effort was put into organising students for the protest right down to making sure people were fed, which was done by no other college, and making sure the shirts said ULSU instead of USI.
People went around begging people to sign up in lectures as well as the b1 canteen. The people who couldn't be bothered are the people who aren't helping fight fees.

Hmm, I think you are confusing 'discrimination' with a legitimate criticism of a potential hypocrisy/conflict of interest within the Union.
Nobody is doubting the hard work and sincerity of the officers (well I speak for myself at least), but I do think that these political affiliations should be clearly flagged when it comes to elections. As you say, everyone has a right to join whoever they want, but I sure as feck don't want to help further the career of a potential future FF/FG/SF/whatever candidate. I have no trust in any politicians whatsoever and will see any shoddy ladder-climbing efforts by party members as yet another shade of the gombeen political bull**** which has afflicted Ireland.

Note that I am not implying any Union members are trying to further a possible future political career, just outlining a scenario which could easily arise if we were to be blasé about any party ties.

ynwa_17

Jigga wrote: »

These FF members such as Derek Daly and last year's president Pa O'Brien share the conservative right-wing policies of this government such as reintroducing fees and other education cutbacks. Indeed, the current president Ruan Dillon McLoughlin's also has cosy ties with this cabal.

There are only so many political parties that one can follow. Its not unusual for those who follow politics to have a keen interest in the students union.

Even with the two aforementioned in the above quote, that still leaves Aoife Finnerty, Vivion Grisewood and Finn McDuffie, all of which you 'luckily enough' fail to mention. How can it be considered a surprise that a member or two of the union follow a party which is by far the biggest political party in Ireland and one of the most 'successful' in the democratic world?

This explains the absolutely pathetic role the ULSU have played in opposing the reintroduction of fees - many of their leadership actually support their reintroduction!

Are you actually serious? For goodness sake, what more could the students union do, considering the vast financial loss they took on by allowing people to could free of charge, bar a slight donation to charity and the wide-scale advertising campaign they did for the protest.

not bakunin wrote: »

Nobody is doubting the hard work and sincerity of the officers (well I speak for myself at least), but I do think that these political affiliations should be clearly flagged when it comes to elections. As you say, everyone has a right to join whoever they want, but I sure as feck don't want to help further the career of a potential future FF/FG/SF/whatever candidate. I have no trust in any politicians whatsoever and will see any shoddy ladder-climbing efforts by party members as yet another shade of the gombeen political bull**** which has afflicted Ireland.

Note that I am not implying any Union members are trying to further a possible future political career, just outlining a scenario which could easily arise if we were to be blasé about any party ties.

Of those within the Union, I can honestly say Derek Daly is the only one with any bit of a potential future in politics and a stint in the UL Students Union is hardly going to drastically increase his chances of this nor is he using his position to incorporate FF policy.

I'd like to add, if we consider Students Union's as a stepping stone to political glory, then do you trust the Irish Court system? As the current Chief Justice, John Murray, once sat as President of USI!

SarahBeep!

People shouldn't have rowe disclose their political preference when running for election.

I can't really see Derek or Ruan going all Robert Mugabe and stealing our freedom...

cson

SarahBeep! wrote: »

People shouldn't have rowe disclose their political preference when running for election.

I can't really see Derek or Ruan going all Robert Mugabe and stealing our freedom...

I disagree. If you have affiliations put it out there, if you're a good enough candidate you'll be elected anyway.

SarahBeep!

cson wrote: »

I disagree. If you have affiliations put it out there, if you're a good enough candidate you'll be elected anyway.

fair enough if a candidate wants to tell people that, but is is not in the same league as asking someone's sexuality or religion?

not bakunin

Nope. It's not as though you were born into the Cumann. It's a political ideology, and if you are looking to be elected to a public role, of course those who you are asking to vote for you have a right to know. And I amn't concerned with them 'taking my freedom' (like to see them try...), but I am concerned with them taking €98k per annum plus expenses of public money for sitting on the backbenches and nodding smugly!

As for the courts point, I really don't think it's the same scenario. High Court Judges don't have to canvass the masses in order to receive their position. Murray was appointed on the basis of his work to that point, not because he was in with the right crowd....unless you have evidence to suggest otherwise?

SarahBeep!

You do realise you're now talking about politicians and not sabbats?

not bakunin

Well I'm really talking about anyone who goes to the public looking to be elected to any paid position, using the lazy Dáil backbenchers as an example to illustrate where the electorate's apathy can be damaging. Doesn't matter if you're a Sabbatical officer of UL or Richard Nixon, same principles should apply. Amen, etc.

freyners

just to inform anyone who might think otherwise derek daly (his username is ninty9er) declared that he was a member of ff in this thread before the elections and afaik he never has had a problem admitting to this

not bakunin

Great, and long may that continue to be the case.

PeakOutput

SarahBeep! wrote: »

You do realise you're now talking about politicians and not sabbats?

its student politics its the same thing and its no secret that ruan has political ambitions so this sort of discussion is going to pale in comparison to the criticisms he will have to take if he gets elected to any serious office

i think its lame that they have these associations but they werent hidden either so its the electorates fault really if they didnt know about it

i think the fact that at least one supports the reintroduction of fees(so do i) is a much more important fact that i wouldnt know accept i know his handle on here and one that i think his electorate would have loved to know. i have read his reasoning behind it and i can see were he is coming from but i dont think its his decision and it should have be made very clear in the last race but hey i doubt he cars what anyone says about it now

the protest with the ministers car last year over fees is also so wrong that its not even funny but again it wasnt a secret that he was ff and he got voted in so thats that i guess

FerrisBueller

Honestly as a UL student I'm not particularly bothered about one's political affiliations, as far as I'm concerned they're all doing the job that they were hired for, which is to represent students and I don't really think that being a member of a political party makes a difference in this.

Fair enough, the fees campaign is a big thing, but the SU did organise for a group to go up, and did a good job in bringing students up to Dublin in the same manner as someone who wouldn't be affiliated with a political party would do.

It's a Student's Union, not the Dáil. Also I don't think anyone in the SU has really overexploited their position for their "political dreams" (if you want to a better example, have a chat with a UCC student) so to say. Have you seen a political party banner, logo, etc displayed in one of their offices?

However, remember that sabbatical positions are only for a year, people need to move on from so to be fair if someone does have a plan for after this, would you honestly blame them?

AlwaysRight

FerrisBueller wrote: »

Honestly as a UL student I'm not particularly bothered about one's political affiliations, as far as I'm concerned they're all doing the job that they were hired for, which is to represent students and I don't really think that being a member of a political party makes a difference in this.

Fair enough, the fees campaign is a big thing, but the SU did organise for a group to go up, and did a good job in bringing students up to Dublin in the same manner as someone who wouldn't be affiliated with a political party would do.

It's a Student's Union, not the Dáil. Also I don't think anyone in the SU has really overexploited their position for their "political dreams" (if you want to a better example, have a chat with a UCC student) so to say. Have you seen a political party banner, logo, etc displayed in one of their offices?

However, remember that sabbatical positions are only for a year, people need to move on from so to be fair if someone does have a plan for after this, would you honestly blame them?

I agree with this and I was about to say something similar myself.

I personally don't know a thing about politics and to be quite honest don't have any intention of getting particularly interested in politics in the near future. However, any thing I've needed from the SU, I have received. Whether that was a bit of advice or the opportunity to protest. They are doing their job in what appears to be a fair and unbiased way. If there are sabbats who want the fees, did it affect me getting the opportunity to protest against fees? I don't think it did.

Like I said i'm not into politics, but I cannot see how any of the political beliefs of the sabbats really effects me! I don't give a crap, they do what I need them to do and they do it well. Thats all that matters in my eyes.

Jigga

Neither Pa O'Brien or Derek Daly have hidden their FF affiliation, but Ruan Dillon McLoughlin certainly has been more circumspect in that regard.

Why does this matter? When Cowen attended the opening of the new Irish World Academy of Music and Dance, the SU organised a protest at a days notice and then changed the location from the advertised Millstream Courtyard to a spot at the other end of the campus outside the Schuman building with literally 10 minutes notice!

The official ULSU video record even shows Peter Power taking the time to shake 'protestors' hands. The stunt was wrapped up in time for both Derek Daly and McLoughlin to attend the function with Cowen.

Now, the official line is they went so as to raise students' concerns directly with the Taoiseach. But considering the scandal around the Martin Cullen visit in 2008, the fact that both are linked with FF, and that Derek Daly is on the record as a supporter of fees - students are entitled to be sceptical of how strongly their case was made.

The Cowen protest wasn't built for and was effectively sabotaged by moving location so late in the day. Many students were left behind at Millstream Courtyard without any word from the SU, and those who arrived late had no notice of what had changed. If ULSU aren't simply incompetent, then this is just one example of how students' right to protest can be cut across by their student union reps political affiliation.

FerrisBueller

Were any of the SU officers working as sabbatical officers in 2008?

AlwaysRight

Jigga wrote: »

Neither Pa O'Brien or Derek Daly have hidden their FF affiliation, but Ruan Dillon McLoughlin certainly has been more circumspect in that regard.

Why does this matter? When Cowen attended the opening of the new Irish World Academy of Music and Dance, the SU organised a protest at a days notice and then changed the location from the advertised Millstream Courtyard to a spot at the other end of the campus outside the Schuman building with literally 10 minutes notice!

The official ULSU video record even shows Peter Power taking the time to shake 'protestors' hands. The stunt was wrapped up in time for both Derek Daly and McLoughlin to attend the function with Cowen.

Now, the official line is they went so as to raise students' concerns directly with the Taoiseach. But considering the scandal around the Martin Cullen visit in 2008, the fact that both are linked with FF, and that Derek Daly is on the record as a supporter of fees - students are entitled to be sceptical of how strongly their case was made.

The Cowen protest wasn't built for and was effectively sabotaged by moving location so late in the day. Many students were left behind at Millstream Courtyard without any word from the SU, and those who arrived late had no notice of what had changed. If ULSU aren't simply incompetent, then this is just one example of how students' right to protest can be cut across by their student union reps political affiliation.

Now I maybe be showing my ignorance but was the change in location not due to the fact that Brian Cowen simply was not going to be passing through the millstream courtyard as was expected? Furthermore, and this is actually genuinely asking, did many students actually turn up in the millstream courtyard?

I felt pretty well informed on the event. Emails were sent saying time and location. Then I immediately saw the change in location on facebook, which was an effective method of communication seeing as most of us are addicted to it and are on it even on our phones most of the time.

I'm so politically stupid that I don't know what party anyone is with so I don't really care who was shaking hands or who was doing what. The way I saw it was

-fees coming in
-Cowen in charge
-Cowen coming to UL
-Me wanna shout at Cowen about fees
-SU organised a shout at Cowen
-YAY!

To put it simply that is.

nash19

First of all I'd like to thank the OP for starting this debate. I believe that this sort of debate is important in any democratic society and I'm sure that most of the sebats would welcome it. While I believe that it is not overly healthy for our SU to be dominated by people of any one political persuasion ( I believe for any institution to truly flourish there must be a certain level of diversity) these people were elected democratically by the student population. The key question here should not be a petty one of our SU members political ideals or beliefs, but in fact the question of are they doing the job they have been elected for, are they doing it to the best of their ability and could someone preform this job better? It should be these questions that we consider when electing people to SU office not what party they hold membership to and if anyone is unhappy with the the way the SU is managed at present they have the power to vote these people out this semester. Nice to see some healthy debate anyway rant over.......:pac:

Seloth

But you could view it like this...a Person can be catholic,it doesn't mean they hate homosexuals.Personally and I know quite hateingly I'd be more leaning to FF than most other party's but It doesn't mean myself that I'd support their education policy's.If I were too ever be involved in the SU I would but Ul student ahead of what ever personal politics I hold,which i assume the current,past and future SU will do.

Gael23

I have always known that many of them have FF ties but then you look at the work they have done over their term and this issue doesnt seem all that important. If you ask any of them they will say that their personal views are seperate from SU ones , which is fair but then we see them opposing FF measures like fees and organising a protest when their leader visits the campus.

ninty9er

For those that are unaware I am Derek Daly.

This issue comes up from time to time and I have no problems in addressing it. I am a member of Fianna Fáil, though I dispute the right wing alignment, but that's not for discussion here.

When I am at work, that is firmly outside the door, however where debates arise internally I will express a personal opinion before a vote is taken, as will all officers who wish to do so. I have only ever once been accused in an internal meeting (not this year) of expressing an opinion as a Fianna Fáil member above Derek Daly. This ended badly and with the other person retracting the statement under threat of an official harassment complaint.

I do not, nor have I ever, sought to put a Fianna Fáil view forward as one that should be adopted by ULSU.

My opinion on fees is that I am pro, but then again I was one of the people who brought Ógra Fianna Fáil to that opinion, it was not Ógra Fianna Fáil who brought me to that opinion. I will not debate 3rd level fees on this forum, if you want to debate fees with me do it in the politics forum.

I'm not going to comment on other's political hues, but suffice to say there is only one member of Fianna Fáil elected to a sabbatical position. I get plenty of abuse for it from staff, and from other officers, but I am as entitled to my membership of Fianna Fáil and my opinions as they are not to like it. If it ever turned nasty, I would take appropriate action, but it hasn't and I doubt it will.

We work as a team in ULSU regardless of political persuasion or personal disagreements. That is as it should be.

We take our direction from Class Reps Council or AGM on policy and as such, regardless of my personal opinion on fees I was in Dublin in November shouting as loudly as anyone else.

As for political ambitions and platforming, does anyone honestly believe that the people of Ireland cold give a flying fuck whether someone was an SU officer or not. I wouldn't hide it, but it wouldn't be of much benefit on a campaign trail as a decent policy schedule. There are plenty of people in other SUs, looking particularly at UCD and USI that use it as a political platform, but to be honest, I don't know why as it is so far removed from the everyday life of a national legislator that you would have to be blind or stupid to think that being a students' union officer is of enormous benefit. There are minor experiential things like conflict resolution and dealing with University management that can translate, but the vast majority of what we do is irrelevant to most politicians, and by inference the electorate.

On the subject of protests: At the Irish World Academy opening we expected Cowen to walk across the Living Bridge from Plassey House, however due to delays he went straight to the World Academy. We could have waited in the Millstream, but security kindly informed us he may not be using that route so we repositioned in a place that he would HAVE to pass. The protest meeting time was 11am and it was 11:05 by the time the Millstream was cleared of protesters.

Ruán and I got 5 minutes with Cowen during which we outlined the impact of core budget cuts as well as the impracticalities of increasing the SSC to €3,000. He listened, he outlined his position and thanked us for the views. I did not arrange this, the University Protocol Office arranged this and at no time was Cowen made aware of our political persuasions by either of us, though the Chancellor may have done so in my case, I don't know.

I don't know how I can be any clearer in outlining the separation of my work and my Fianna Fáil membership.

PeakOutput

ninty9er wrote: »

For those that are unaware I am Derek Daly.

<snip>

I don't know how I can be any clearer in outlining the separation of my work and my Fianna Fáil membership.

i agree with you on most things i just think that

A) if you had of made your personal opinions on fees clear you would have had a much harder time getting elected(rightly or wrongly) and while i know how you justify it i dont think that thats your decision to make. disclose everything and explain it and then let the electorate decide. im not saying you should resign over it or anything i just think it would have been the more 'honest'(for want of a better word) way to do things

your right the electorate couldnt care less if you were a sabbat but the party would and it gives you just that little bit extra experience that will help you along in the party if thats what you want. thats not a bad thing but student politics has long been a stepping stone for people with further political ambitions and saying the two are unrelated is just wrong imo

C) my fyp is directly related to improving the experience of every student in the university and i cant get the president or any of the other sabbats to reply to an email requesting an hour of their time, that is simply ridiculous (yes thats off tpic but while i have your attention )

ilovemybrick

SarahBeep! wrote: »

Secondly, you have no right to discriminate against anyone because of their political preference no more than you do regarding their race religion or gender.

I think you misunderstand how democracy works. The very discrimination against opposing theories or opinions is the basis of democracy.

Seloth

ilovemybrick wrote: »

I think you misunderstand how democracy works. The very discrimination against opposing theories or opinions is the basis of democracy.

I believe they mean on a more local level.While in theory and Nationally that is true the SU is not made up of political opinions or party's but one such that functions to bring about the best for the student body.

The Little Fella

I would never vote for Fianna Fail but that does not stop me recognising they do have some good politicians in their party such as Brian Lenihan who was not given the correct ministry to match his expertise and also the likes of Michael Martin and Mary Hanafin. It is not correct to paint all people who are in Fianna Fail with the same brush. Personally I would support the introduction of fees if a proper grant system could be put in place with such an introduction. Political affiliations should not in any case affect SU officers in their roles.

Jigga

Some people still manage to miss the point and continue to operate under the illusion that having pro-fees people lead anti-fees campaigns doesn't matter. It clearly does, but I've made my point. Hopefully some of those who weren't aware of the FF nature of the SU leadership have been awoken to this fact.

Regarding the Cowen visit, the student union reps had left the Millstream Courtyard by 10.50 and there were about a dozen students left behind. RTE actually came to talk to the students who were still there at 11 and the official SU contingent had definitely long gone by then.

not bakunin

ninty9er wrote: »

My opinion on fees is that I am pro....
We take our direction from Class Reps Council or AGM on policy and as such, regardless of my personal opinion on fees I was in Dublin in November shouting as loudly as anyone else.

Derek I appreciate the points made in your post, and am glad to note you have been consistently open about your FF membership.
However, can you understand how the above statements may come across very poorly to the average student? Not that you oppose fees, but that you would be involved in 'their' anti-fees campaign at a high level when you clearly feel otherwise personally. I am not accusing you of not putting in genuinely hard work involving the protest etc, but your allegiances to the anti-fees campaign, regardless of Union policy, has to be a legitimate concern to anti-fees students. It is a hypocritical stance in my eyes at least.
EDIT: Could I just add to PeakOutput's previous point there and echo the call for transparency about your view at election time. No idea if you are running again, but if you are, I hope to see you shouting loud and proud to everyone that you are pro-fees...being the Deputy President definitely necessitates this.

Regarding the Cowen fiasco, I can confirm that the SU protesters left the Millstream before 11am, without leaving any indication as to where they had re-located. (There was an email sent out as far as I remember, but at short notice and there was no sign left redirecting people at the Millstream. About 8 interested students asked me where the SU had gone after showing up there). RTE and Irish Times journalists were subsequently left to talk to the extremely small body of other protesters (lecturers, socialists, hangers-on) at the actual building. However, this has all been well-documented and is in the past. There were mistakes made, hopefully it won't happen again.

SarahBeep!

Jigga wrote: »

Some people still manage to miss the point and continue to operate under the illusion that having pro-fees people lead anti-fees campaigns doesn't matter. It clearly does, but I've made my point. Hopefully some of those who weren't aware of the FF nature of the SU leadership have been awoken to this fact.

Regarding the Cowen visit, the student union reps had left the Millstream Courtyard by 10.50 and there were about a dozen students left behind. RTE actually came to talk to the students who were still there at 11 and the official SU contingent had definitely long gone by then.

So because the voice at the front of the crowd has a particular opinion, it drowns out all the others?

And people who were 'left behind' could easily have followed, like people who were in class came late.

TheProdigy

ninty9er wrote: »

For those that are unaware I am Derek Daly.

This issue comes up from time to time and I have no problems in addressing it. I am a member of Fianna Fáil, though I dispute the right wing alignment, but that's not for discussion here.

When I am at work, that is firmly outside the door, however where debates arise internally I will express a personal opinion before a vote is taken, as will all officers who wish to do so. I have only ever once been accused in an internal meeting (not this year) of expressing an opinion as a Fianna Fáil member above Derek Daly. This ended badly and with the other person retracting the statement under threat of an official harassment complaint.

I do not, nor have I ever, sought to put a Fianna Fáil view forward as one that should be adopted by ULSU.

My opinion on fees is that I am pro, but then again I was one of the people who brought Ógra Fianna Fáil to that opinion, it was not Ógra Fianna Fáil who brought me to that opinion. I will not debate 3rd level fees on this forum, if you want to debate fees with me do it in the politics forum.

I'm not going to comment on other's political hues, but suffice to say there is only one member of Fianna Fáil elected to a sabbatical position. I get plenty of abuse for it from staff, and from other officers, but I am as entitled to my membership of Fianna Fáil and my opinions as they are not to like it. If it ever turned nasty, I would take appropriate action, but it hasn't and I doubt it will.

We work as a team in ULSU regardless of political persuasion or personal disagreements. That is as it should be.

We take our direction from Class Reps Council or AGM on policy and as such, regardless of my personal opinion on fees I was in Dublin in November shouting as loudly as anyone else.

As for political ambitions and platforming, does anyone honestly believe that the people of Ireland cold give a flying fuck whether someone was an SU officer or not. I wouldn't hide it, but it wouldn't be of much benefit on a campaign trail as a decent policy schedule. There are plenty of people in other SUs, looking particularly at UCD and USI that use it as a political platform, but to be honest, I don't know why as it is so far removed from the everyday life of a national legislator that you would have to be blind or stupid to think that being a students' union officer is of enormous benefit. There are minor experiential things like conflict resolution and dealing with University management that can translate, but the vast majority of what we do is irrelevant to most politicians, and by inference the electorate.

On the subject of protests: At the Irish World Academy opening we expected Cowen to walk across the Living Bridge from Plassey House, however due to delays he went straight to the World Academy. We could have waited in the Millstream, but security kindly informed us he may not be using that route so we repositioned in a place that he would HAVE to pass. The protest meeting time was 11am and it was 11:05 by the time the Millstream was cleared of protesters.

Ruán and I got 5 minutes with Cowen during which we outlined the impact of core budget cuts as well as the impracticalities of increasing the SSC to €3,000. He listened, he outlined his position and thanked us for the views. I did not arrange this, the University Protocol Office arranged this and at no time was Cowen made aware of our political persuasions by either of us, though the Chancellor may have done so in my case, I don't know.

I don't know how I can be any clearer in outlining the separation of my work and my Fianna Fáil membership.

When your running for president this year will you make it clear on any handouts etc that you are pro college fees? I think you would have a duty to do so, would you agree?

ninty9er

Jigga wrote: »

Some people still manage to miss the point and continue to operate under the illusion that having pro-fees people lead anti-fees campaigns doesn't matter. It clearly does, but I've made my point. Hopefully some of those who weren't aware of the FF nature of the SU leadership have been awoken to this fact.

Can I just ask if you are even a UL student? I ask because you seem to be entirely unaware of how ULSU operates. if you think it matters. I have won arguments on slogans and campaigning based on the fact that only someone pro-fees could see that some of the slogans could be ripped to pieces, the same applied when framing the anti-fees stance ULSU has taken. It has been tapered, but that has been on the basis that ULSU has in the main made watertight arguments, pre-empting any retorts, that would not have happened were I not at the table

not bakunin wrote: »

However, can you understand how the above statements may come across very poorly to the average student? Not that you oppose fees, but that you would be involved in 'their' anti-fees campaign at a high level when you clearly feel otherwise personally.

I have a personal opinion. It is stated on the other thread (the elections one from last year) that I am entitled to a personal opinion, but where a conflict arises in the line of my work, I am paid to be involved in an anti-fees campaign, so while I'm working I'm anti fees.

If I have views on abortion, then I also have to put that aside should a student/students come to me with an unplanned pregnancy and explain to them that there are 3 options. It is simply a matter of when I am working, I am working and that is the end of it. Personal opinions do not count where decisions have already been taken.

not bakunin wrote: »

It is a hypocritical stance in my eyes at least.
EDIT: Could I just add to PeakOutput's previous point there and echo the call for transparency about your view at election time. No idea if you are running again, but if you are, I hope to see you shouting loud and proud to everyone that you are pro-fees...being the Deputy President definitely necessitates this.

I don't view it as hypocrytical, it is a separation of private and public. I chose to let people know my personal opinion. I didn't have to tell anyone.

But this thread is not about my opinions. It is a discredited thread about ULSU and Fianna Fáil. ULSU's only connection with Fianna Fáil is that it is a recognised society in ULSU.

I am connected to Fianna Fáil and I am connected to ULSU, but that does not mean Fianna Fáil is connected to ULSU.

daithi_lacha

SarahBeep! wrote: »

and making sure the shirts said ULSU instead of USI.

Much to the delight of every other college when we appeared on RTÉ News

SarahBeep! wrote: »

People went around begging people to sign up in lectures as well as the b1 canteen

Surely an issue as big as the reintroduction of fees, an issue so close to students hearts shouldn't require 'begging' to have them come along to a protest? Perhaps the fact that a majority of them required 'begging' was a hint that maybe, although the issue was close to their hearts, they quite simply didn't want to go, for reasons which weren't obvious to many of those at the heart of the organised journey to Dublin...

TheProdigy

ninty9er wrote: »

I am connected to Fianna Fáil and I am connected to ULSU, but that does not mean Fianna Fáil is connected to ULSU.

Derek you are pro fees, now if you got elected as president it may result in you campaigning/advertising for the introduction of fees.

Therefore I would appreciate it if you would answer whether you would advertise on any flyers etc for your presidential campaign that you are pro fees?

shabouwcaw

To be fair and reasonable, there's hardly a massive scope for ideology in the nuts and bolts running of ULSU.

As Derek said, he's employed to do a job, I don't think anyone could have any reasonable complaints about the level at which he does that job.

I think his abortion analogy is a good one. While people could be elected to a position holding very strong pro-life views, if they were in a position where someone came to them looking for information, it's expected that the person puts the interests of their job first. That's how someone who is professional and responsible acts in that situation.

Yes, its cool to slag off Fianna Fail. Yes, they've destroyed the economy. But that in no way reflects on the ability of A. Derek Daly to do his job. B. the ability of ULSU to function independent of political influence C. the ability of ULSU to reflect the views of the students.

You forget, the Union Executive has very limited scope for independent policy creation. The Union views on things are passed at Council and at the UGM. The sabbats do not have a technocratic dictatorship, so even if Derek was a FF-puppet hell bent on privatising all student services and all the other bogeyman stuff you could possibly accuse "evil rightwingers" of (which Derek is not), they would be unable to do so. Coz that's not how ULSU works.


Regards (and since anonymity breeds unaccountability, Jigga)
David Hartery.

breanoh

I think alot of the arguments being put forward here are no brainers, Sabbatical officers don't have the ability do change union policy, that is up the class reps, UGM, EGM or referrendum.

Party politics has not and does not come into the SU elections, and I hope it doesn't, because at the end of the day, the students elect people they believe in, and believe can get the work done, they don't vote for a poltical party ideoligy.

It has been a well known fact since the day Mr. Daly walked into the SU building as a fresh faced first year that he was a Fianna Failer, it is something he never hid, and and always talked about! And it was not hidden on his campaign

Officers are meant to leave their personal opinions on individual issues at the door, and work for the betterment of the students through the channels provided for in the Constitution. he attended an anti-fees protest, and did his work as a sabbat, what more can be asked for.

I can remember when St. John had to protest the students right to park our cars for €2, although he was an avid envoirnmentalist, To name but one other example of personal beliefs being left at the door.

Lads, lets get off this witch hunt. The internet is a great place for those with agendas to post behind anonymous usernames, Stop being sensationalist, and start being realistic,

Over the past 9 years I have seen students union sabbats in UL, people have come and gone, we've had extreme left wing, extreme right wing, FG, FF, Lab, SF, the whole lot, the union has gone through massive change, from being massively in debt, to where it is now. And this current crop isn't a bad crop at all.

Guys, stop your stupid scaremongering, read the constitution, and stop trying to discredit good officers. It really is so 2006!

Breandán Ó hÉamhaigh.
(Yes, that one)

ninty9er

TheProdigy wrote: »

Derek you are pro fees, now if you got elected as president it may result in you campaigning/advertising for the introduction of fees.

How would it?? It may result in students being asked their opinion on the matter, but you are making assumptions based on fallacies. There is nothing that I cannot do now, that I could do if I were President, bar attend PCC Ltd board meetings.

TheProdigy

ninty9er wrote: »

How would it?? It may result in students being asked their opinion on the matter, but you are making assumptions based on fallacies. There is nothing that I cannot do now, that I could do if I were President, bar attend PCC Ltd board meetings.

Ok

Now will you answer my initial question which I thought the elected welfare officer would have the decency to provide to a student.

ninty9er

TheProdigy wrote: »

Ok
Now will you answer my initial question which I thought the elected welfare officer would have the decency to provide to a student.

I can't possibly answer that question as there is currently no election and therefore no campaigning permitted.

canned_ulkc

breanoh - I'd like to know who you are - cos you're my new hero..... You said much of what I was thinking in a much nicer way. If it was me I'd be more aggressively fking and shting about the fact that it amazes me how people create associations and are not allowed thereafter to have a balanced opinion.

Derek is regularly the subject of anti FF, sly dirtydog, bitchy, sarcastic and possibly even caustic comments from myself on FB.

I like to think such banter encourages people to think rather than polarise. And that seems to be what has happened here. We are each of us unique and I would HATE to be associated with defending anything FF but I find it embarrassing for those who are willing to attack in such a presumptuous way.


Also - if Derek were to go for ULSU president, don't be associated with all that is wrong with politics in a preemptive smearing - get the guts to allow people to make their own decisions on who they vote for - I think that's called democracy.

If you don't like that - tough; you need to accept it though. After all, every time a majority of fking dickheads vote FF back in, I've accepted it. Mostly by being able to know that they are indeed dickheads..... Nothing like the moral high ground... I await the scathing replies claiming all sorts of ignorance etc. Best of luck - water of a kayaker's back....


Actually - since posting the above, I have made a bit more of an effort than I usually would in looking at the OP's OPs..... and All I can do is use other abreviations like OMFG and WAFA (I just made that up - it means "What a Fking Ahole") The barely hidden agenda here is obvious. I have no idea about Pa and Derek has been very up front about his FF allegience but Ruan an FF man....?? I think sir you are having a joke or are on some kind of medication....

TheProdigy

ninty9er wrote: »

I can't possibly answer that question as there is currently no election and therefore no campaigning permitted.

I see your acquaintance Mr.Power was showed you the art of dodging questions.

I think you are aware that such honesty would be detrimental to your forthcoming presidential campaign.

Should you choose to not disclose such information I am sure there will be plenty of people willing to make it available to the electorate.

SarahBeep!

daithi_lacha wrote: »

Much to the delight of every other college when we appeared on RTÉ News



Surely an issue as big as the reintroduction of fees, an issue so close to students hearts shouldn't require 'begging' to have them come along to a protest? Perhaps the fact that a majority of them required 'begging' was a hint that maybe, although the issue was close to their hearts, they quite simply didn't want to go, for reasons which weren't obvious to many of those at the heart of the organised journey to Dublin...

It was even said to me by a friend from UCC that she saw UL shirts everywhere which is pretty damn cool

Im pretty sure, unless you overslept (=p), you were in the lecture where I and two others got up to tell people about the protest. Very few people gave us a second look.
What if everyone looked either side of them and asked themselves 'If fees were introduced would I still be seeing my best friend in college?' whether we realise it or not, we decide how things Will end up. When Im old and have children and grandchildren I hope I can tell them I did what was best for my generation and theirs by trying to safeguard things like education for all because that's the only way in this day and age to escape poverty.
If that means voting (which ill be old enough to do fo the first time in this next election) for a non FF candidate then so be it. A particular candidate has yet to win my vote, but whoever they are they Will do so with their policies, not their party.

But i won't hold a grudge against Derek or anyone else who votes FF.

@Jigga: disagree with what someone says, don't question their right to say it.

Sarah Dowd, over and out. :rolleyes:

ynwa_17

TheProdigy wrote: »

I see your acquaintance Mr.Power was showed you the art of dodging questions.

I think you are aware that such honesty would be detrimental to your forthcoming presidential campaign.

Should you choose to not disclose such information I am sure there will be plenty of people willing to make it available to the electorate.

Announcing his 'supposed' forthcoming presidential campaign is actually against the SU rules on election. While these are often the worst kept secrets, announcing it on a public forum, months in advance while currently being a sabbat would not be seen as a very smart thing.

I don't even think this is a case of the OP wanting to question the role of FF in the SU. It actually seems more of a personal attack on Derek (and originally Ruan.) If one looks back to the election threads they'll find similar posts, mainly from Paddy Rockett campaigners, which was a tactic I didn't like.

ynwa_17

TheProdigy wrote: »

I think you should back up these accusations or somebody may hold you responsible over such comments, comments potentially worthy of libel action.

I'm not really sure you understand the concept of libel. Libel would involve me specifically mentioning individuals as having done or said something. I said member's of Rockett's campaign did. So cop yourself on a bit

Not that i need to prove anything to yourself but I was part of the aforementioned campaign team, for starters.

Many of the posts relating to FF and digs at the two sabbats at hand were deleted, however see the following for comments on the topic at hand

ninty9er wrote: »

I am a member of Fianna Fáil. I wouldn't normally, but I'm going to declare that my opponent is also just in case he doesn't engage here and this is something that affects voting.

Again, I have kept my party political dealings at arm's length in a similar manner as I have kept personal and Union opinions completely separate where they don't intersect.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64791758&postcount=12

ninty9er wrote: »

In any case, party politics has no place in the job.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=64795189

and:

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64797456&postcount=25

billy the squid

SarahBeep! wrote: »

People shouldn't have rowe disclose their political preference when running for election.

I can't really see Derek or Ruan going all Robert Mugabe and stealing our freedom...

the state abandonned electronic voting, yet here we are in UL introducing online voting for elections.

I do believe that membership of political party should be disclosed during the elections,

bazkennedy

This seems to come up every year where a person who has a grudge against a particular political party attacks a sabbat for having some connection to said political party, sabat (and others) comes on and defends him/herself and points out how it doesn't really matter what political party you support cos sabbats don't dictate policy blah blah blah.

This is a pointless debate. We'd be better off having an open and informed debate on education funding (fees, grants, costs and cuts) but seeing as FF bashing is en vogue we seem to be having a witch hunt for anyone connected to the party (next week we'll be attacking the class rep who's third cousin's next door neighbour used to be the tea lady at FF HQ)

Oh and for the record I'll be voting for the Monster Raving Looney Party and if i happen to become a sabbat I will be using my job to implement the Party's policy- Fees for some, miniature ul for others [/joke]

Yours Satirically

Barry Kennedy

bazkennedy

While this is going a bit off topic, e-voting has been used quiet succesfully for Student Union elections in several UK Universities for the past two years.

billy the squid

SarahBeep! wrote: »

Provided its hack proof i support voting. Some things work better on a small scale.

If we ask for political preference then we need to ask for religion, opinion on abortion, opinion on the American occupancy of the middle east and opinion on pineapple on pizza.

Coz i don't want a war loving, pineapple hating, religious extremist telling me which grants i can apply for or how to evaluate my lecturers.
But hey, that's just a personal opinion.
(All getting pretty ridiculous now, isn't it?)

would you hold it against a communications officer if he/she preferred to pick up the sun instead of the examiner?

If their vision for An Focail was to emulate the Sun then I would have a problem.

If they don't want party affiliation to come into elections then they should be banned from using fellow party members in their campaigns.

SarahBeep!

billy the squid wrote: »

If their vision for An Focail was to emulate the Sun then I would have a problem.

If they don't want party affiliation to come into elections then they should be banned from using fellow party members in their campaigns.

There seems to be an awful lot of ifs and buts being dropped in this thread.

I prefer rugby to soccer. If a member of the ul soccer team decided to run for a sabbatical position, do i think his or hers teammates should be banned from helping them all because i think soccer has gone to the dogs? no.
Because believe it or not if you ask anyone involved in c&s they'll tell you they've made some great friends there. When my friends make decisions (eg running for a sabbatical position) i support them.