Nissan Leaf anyone buying it?

hsi

I was thinking of buying the Nissan Leaf because of the Goverment grant.

But its €29,995 after Government incentive.... Was thinking of using it for urban travel, and it does 160Km on 1 charge.

But 30k is a lot of money, I know Tax and Fuel will be small.. but still it would be cheaper to get a regular 15K 2nd hand.

Its there any real incentive to buy the car? I suppose the Middle-Upper classes can afford it, but for the majority its pricey.

Anan1

As with any car, it depends what you're comparing it to. Any new car is going to be more expensive than a used one.;)

Shane732

hsi wrote: »

I was thinking of buying the Nissan Leaf because of the Goverment grant.

But its €29,995 after Government incentive.... Was thinking of using it for urban travel, and it does 160Km on 1 charge.

But 30k is a lot of money, I know Tax and Fuel will be small.. but still it would be cheaper to get a regular 15K 2nd hand.

Its there any real incentive to buy the car? I suppose the Middle-Upper classes can afford it, but for the majority its pricey.

I'd rather walk than buy one of those yokes.

You could buy this and have change. Carbon footprint my ars*

Anan1

Shane732 wrote: »

I'd rather walk than buy one of those yokes.

You could buy this and have change. Carbon footprint my ars*

I think you're falling into the 'I like it so everyone else will too' trap there.

mickdw

Its pricy for a car with very limited use. Sure its reasonable for a daily commute. What if you decide to go away for the weekend? You would have to plan you charging strategy to avoid being stranded.
I do realise that it should be cheap to run but then again, its pricy, kinda ugly & if general opinion goes against this, its resale value might be hopeless. Given that the greens will be out of government, the electric car plan might fall away into the background.
Even if a car with that kind of range was suitable for my needs, I wouldnt go for it at this time.
There is also the whole other problem of getting people to change to a whole new type of driving experience & to many people who enjoy the actual driving part, that will be a stumbling block.

-Corkie-

Shane732 wrote: »

I'd rather walk than buy one of those yokes.

You could buy this and have change. Carbon footprint my ars*

:D. Some difference.

Shane732

Anan1 wrote: »

I think you're falling into the 'I like it so everyone else will too' trap there.

Not at all. I simply went on to Carzone and moved a few sliders to get a car that was at least 3.0l and within the price range. It's the first one that came up. just a bonus that it's an Alfa!

maidhc

Shane732 wrote: »

I'd rather walk than buy one of those yokes.

You could buy this and have change. Carbon footprint my ars*

Well you will be walking with the Alfa anyway...:D:D

(I'm off now!)

Shane732

-Corkie- wrote: »

:D. Some difference.

It's funny that some people would actually go for the leaf.

What I'd love to do is give a Leaf to someone who loves them and tell them to drive to Cork, then pick up that Alfa and drive behind them and point and laugh when they run out of charge!!!

If you want an electric car go buy a Tesla - Zero Emission and 0 - 60 in sub 4 seconds!!

Atlantic Dawn

It would need the charging network before I would consider buying it even if I had millions to spare. Nissan should lease a couple of hundred of them out to people to get the presence on the road and get people talking about them.

If it had the electric and a smaller 500cc emergency engine which could be used it would be a better purchase, relying on the electric charging is a pain. Incentives like use of the bus lanes and free onstreet parking would make them a success.

Technoprisoner

why??


and dont tell me its because of the carbon emissions because the last time i checked it takes a lot of carbon to make electricity

robtri

Technoprisoner wrote: »

why??


and dont tell me its because of the carbon emissions because the last time i checked it takes a lot of carbon to make electricity

not as much carbon as a petrol or diesel cars spouts out.....

cheap running costs on an eleccy car,

Technoprisoner

robtri wrote: »

not as much carbon as a petrol or diesel cars spouts out.....

cheap running costs on an eleccy car,

how about when you factor in things like oil use in the machiens that produce the electricity?

robtri

Shane732 wrote: »

It's funny that some people would actually go for the leaf.

What I'd love to do is give a Leaf to someone who loves them and tell them to drive to Cork, then pick up that Alfa and drive behind them and point and laugh when they run out of charge!!!

If you want an electric car go buy a Tesla - Zero Emission and 0 - 60 in sub 4 seconds!!

and the leaf owner will p*ss himslef laughing at you when you fill up the alfa all the time with petrol and the cost of it.......

Technoprisoner

and the petrol car owner will laugh at you when you need to replace one of those rechargable batterys..those things are silly money

-Corkie-

robtri wrote: »

and the leaf owner will p*ss himslef laughing at you when you fill up the alfa all the time with petrol and the cost of it.......

Yes possibly but Shane would get the last laugh when the Leaf driver collapses at junction 12 after dying from boredom..;)

robtri

Technoprisoner wrote: »

how about when you factor in things like oil use in the machiens that produce the electricity?

why??? on a scale it probably less then equivlant amount of petrol or diesel cars...

elecctricity produced at our current generating stations is less polluting than car engines... producing the equivilant amout of energy
thats a fact .....

robtri

-Corkie- wrote: »

Yes possibly but Shane would get the last laugh when the Leaf driver collapses at junction 12 after dying from boredom..;)

very true... very true..
leaf not my cup of tea... but it has its advantages and appeals to a lot of people for whom cars are just modes of transport from a to b
not everybody finds driving cars fun....

Miscreant

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

If it had the electric and a smaller 500cc emergency engine which could be used it would be a better purchase, relying on the electric charging is a pain. Incentives like use of the bus lanes and free onstreet parking would make them a success.

Would this make an Opel Ampera a better proposition than the Leaf then? If they come on stream at the same price I know which one I would get (if I had €30k to spare of course )

Shane732

-Corkie- wrote: »

Yes possibly but Shane would get the last laugh when the Leaf driver collapses at junction 12 after dying from boredom..;)

PMSL at that comment!

You think the Leaf would make it as far as junction 12?!!

robtri

Technoprisoner wrote: »

and the petrol car owner will laugh at you when you need to replace one of those rechargable batterys..those things are silly money

iirc with the leaf u never own the batteries, they are on lease.. so if they die they will be replaced by Nissan

-Corkie-

Shane732 wrote: »

PMSL at that comment!

You think the Leaf would make it as far as junction 12?!!

I was being fair..:D

robtri

Shane732 wrote: »

PMSL at that comment!

You think the Leaf would make it as far as junction 12?!!

probably not, but the leaf driver would probably leave the leaf at home and get the train to cork.... and laugh at u in traffic..

Shane732

robtri wrote: »

and the leaf owner will p*ss himslef laughing at you when you fill up the alfa all the time with petrol and the cost of it.......

You think so? The Leaf owner will have to install a 220/240V 40 amp dedicated circuit to the switch box and PAY for the electricity to charge the piece of sh*t at home. Not to mention the cost of getting the thing towed every time it runs out of charge!

I'd happily pay €85 to fill the tank in the Alfa...

Shane732

robtri wrote: »

iirc with the leaf u never own the batteries, they are on lease.. so if they die they will be replaced by Nissan

I wasn't aware they actually went ahead with that idea in the end. Do you have to lease the batteries or is the cost included in the initial purchase?

-Corkie-

Shane732 wrote: »

You think so? The Leaf owner will have to install a 220/240V 40 amp dedicated circuit to the switch box and PAY for the electricity to charge the piece of sh*t at home. Not to mention the cost of getting the thing towed every time it runs out of charge!

I'd happily pay €85 to fill the tank in the Alfa...

I would be happier in the train. Only 50 euro return and free wifi to go on boards all the way!!

robtri

Shane732 wrote: »

You think so? The Leaf owner will have to install a 220/240V 40 amp dedicated circuit to the switch box and PAY for the electricity to charge the piece of sh*t at home. Not to mention the cost of getting the thing towed every time it runs out of charge!

I'd happily pay €85 to fill the tank in the Alfa...

do you know how much it costs to charge the leaf???????

yeah cause no petrol car ever runs out of petrol and left stranded at the side of the road...
under most normal driving conditions around cities, i.e commuting to work or shops or friends, would not likely discharge the car to empty.. charge it up over night for a couple of wuid and away they go again in the morning..
whats the average mileage per annum 10,500 miles a year ( as per SEI) which is what roughly 30 miles a day.. sometheing the leaf can easily handle without running out of elleccy....

robtri

Shane732 wrote: »

I wasn't aware they actually went ahead with that idea in the end. Do you have to lease the batteries or is the cost included in the initial purchase?

not 100% sure on how it actually works, all i remember is that they are under lease.. how the payment is set up i am not sure...

EDIT just checked.. cost included in price

and the ESB will install a charging point at your house for free for first 2000 customers

also here is charging cost at home
€2 overnight / €20 per month / €232 annually
* based on average annual 19,300km

RandomAccess

Shane732 wrote: »

It's funny that some people would actually go for the leaf.

What I'd love to do is give a Leaf to someone who loves them and tell them to drive to Cork, then pick up that Alfa and drive behind them and point and laugh when they run out of charge!!!

If you want an electric car go buy a Tesla - Zero Emission and 0 - 60 in sub 4 seconds!!

Oh come on now... they can pull in at one of our many motorway services to recharge.. oh right.

Actually I think the time for the return of the electric car is firmly upon us.
However I think the leaf is much too ugly for a company to seriously consider selling, I really wouldn't like to own one.
In fact I think it would annoy me to have to drive it because its so ugly, and because it draws attention to itself for all the wrong reasons. Its a bit tacky, like green bling. I dislike the fake planet saving message that the manufacturers are using to sell these cars, particularly because they will mainly appeal to city dwellers with public transport so its really just not green.

I would also consider it akin to a first gen iPod, the ones that come after it will be better in every way and cost considerably less. Of course the first gen iPod came with a free leather case and wall charger whereas now you get bugger all.

I have few objections to electric cars, with any luck an inductive charging loop will be added to motorways so they can travel intercity via an invisible pantograph. This would reduce the weight of batteries required. So range anxiety assuaged, my main gripe would be that of driving enjoyment, I mean if we can't row our own gears and listen to engine notes then all thats left is to drive ridiculously fast on enjoyable roads, something that they will be adept at.. but now we can't do that either because of all those pesky speed vans and boring boring motorways. So I think they will be very fast but very very boring.

Certainly the leaf is the vanguard of a new motoring era, but describing it in such terms disguises that its really just a car for early adopters. Those pawns who we like to sacrifice at the alter of progress. Step aside please, and let those brave green warriors through.

galwaytt

robtri wrote: »

not as much carbon as a petrol or diesel cars spouts out.....

cheap running costs on an eleccy car,

proof please. Last time I checked all the coal and oil used to make our electricity arrived here in Very Large Boats..........that run on diesel.

And, unless you have 30k lying around in cash, you'll be borrowing the money. Add interest on 30k, instead of a 12k car, and there's nothing cheap about an electric car.

I like the principle, but in the Real World, and with our very expensive electricity, it has a long, long way to go before the number's make sense.

whippet

All well and good until you have it charging in your drive way one night and a little scrote waking home from the pub takes the plug out and you end up running out of charge at the end of the driveway!

Shane732

Or the wife goes into labour and the husband is like oh sh*t the leaf isn't charged!!! :D

Or we get a bit of a thunderstorm and the electricity is knocked off..... :D

Shane732

robtri wrote: »

not 100% sure on how it actually works, all i remember is that they are under lease.. how the payment is set up i am not sure...

EDIT just checked.. cost included in price

and the ESB will install a charging point at your house for free for first 2000 customers

also here is charging cost at home
€2 overnight / €20 per month / €232 annually
* based on average annual 19,300km

Is there any independent back up for this or just Nissan's own figures? You also forgot to mention that the cost is based on off-peak electricity rates.

Shane732

One final pi*s take of the Leaf -

Can you imagine trying to do the annual Cannonball run in it?

robtri

galwaytt wrote: »

proof please. Last time I checked all the coal and oil used to make our electricity arrived here in Very Large Boats..........that run on diesel.

And, unless you have 30k lying around in cash, you'll be borrowing the money. Add interest on 30k, instead of a 12k car, and there's nothing cheap about an electric car.

I like the principle, but in the Real World, and with our very expensive electricity, it has a long, long way to go before the number's make sense.

the same boats that deliver our petrol and diesel????????
so that would be up to that point same emissions...
then take into account that most of our gas is pipped in ... no emissions
and the small amount of wind.. no emmisions


coal is only 14% of our energy mx... gas is 69%


so the only question is which is more efficeint at turn fuel into energy?? a conventional petrol engine or our elctricity generating stations???

read all about it here
http://www.going-electric.org/docs/studies/CO2-energy-electric-vehicles.pdf

robtri

Shane732 wrote: »

Is there any independent back up for this or just Nissan's own figures? You also forgot to mention that the cost is based on off-peak electricity rates.

Fine double it for peak hours... which would be 460euro for 19000 km
how much would the alfa cost to do 19000km???

independant... just as independant as any other manufacturers stated MPG...

robtri

whippet wrote: »

All well and good until you have it charging in your drive way one night and a little scrote waking home from the pub takes the plug out and you end up running out of charge at the end of the driveway!

why do little scrots not mess with petrol and diesel cars ??? just as likely to have all four tires knifed....
or more than likely the petrol one is not there in the driveway.... what thief would rob an electric car over a nice petrol one

Technoprisoner

and i have a feeling that insurance cost are going to be crazy for these things as they are a higher risk and id imagine replacement parts are going to be exspensive.

by the way...30 grand seems like a very exspensive battery not to actually own lol

galwaytt

robtri wrote: »

the same boats that deliver our petrol and diesel????????
so that would be up to that point same emissions...
then take into account that most of our gas is pipped in ... no emissions
and the small amount of wind.. no emmisions


coal is only 14% of our energy mx... gas is 69%


so the only question is which is more efficeint at turn fuel into energy?? a conventional petrol engine or our elctricity generating stations???

read all about it here
http://www.going-electric.org/docs/studies/CO2-energy-electric-vehicles.pdf

.....well so long as petrol has a higher calorific value than coal, you'll still need more ships for your coal...

....yes, gas piped in, via electric pumps........which, funnily enough, are powered by a nuclear grid - irony, huh ?

...and the small amount of wind is crippling us with huge energy levy's. Without subsidy, it would never, ever pay for itself. Even this week on a TV I was watching a prefecture in Japan trying to figure out how to un-couple themselves for a wind farm they installed for the city. It was going to cost $1million per turbine to physically un-install it, and they they'd be hammered for another $34million in 'lost revenue contract' issues.........nuts. Why don't they just give the public $34million directly, instead ?

Oh, and, let's not forget out good 'ol friend the phoney 'carbon tax'. Also on electricity.

None of this, though, gets away from the original point of the OP's post: the car is fine: it's just about 200% too expensive. At the right price, you can overcome all the above points.

Sesshoumaru

Technoprisoner wrote: »

by the way...30 grand seems like a very exspensive battery not to actually own lol

Renault were the ones who were stating they may lease the batteries in their new electric Fluence. They have a pilot "filling" station I remember reading about where you pull in and an automated machine swaps the depleted battery in your electric car for a fully charged one in about 3 to 5 minutes. You couldn't have a system like this if everyone owned their own batteries.

With the Leaf you fully own the battery.

Technoprisoner

so 30 grand is expensive for your very own battery lol

Sesshoumaru

galwaytt wrote: »

.....well so long as petrol has a higher calorific value than coal, you'll still need more ships for your coal...

....yes, gas piped in, via electric pumps........which, funnily enough, are powered by a nuclear grid - irony, huh ?

Coal has to be extracted from the ground, but so does Petrol, however it doesn't come out of the ground as petrol. It requires more energy to process it from crude oil into petrol. Can we also add the economic cost of spills like the BP spill in the Gulf region as well? Since it's becoming an ever more rarer commodity and humans go to ever greater depths to get the stuff! It seems only more likely we'll have more giant spills polluting the environment. Nothing ironic about nuclear either! With modern reactor designs it could be the stop gap we need to tide us over until we come up with something better like Fusion power.

johnos1984

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

it could be the stop gap we need to tide us over until we come up with something better like Fusion power.

You need a Mr.Fusion in your life

Sesshoumaru

Technoprisoner wrote: »

so 30 grand is expensive for your very own battery lol

Oil is way harder to get now than it was in 1973 and we're also in more competition for it with countries like China and India. It's far from impossible that we could have another very sharp rise in the price of oil. If this happened I imagine electric car owners would look like oracles and that 30k a good investment.

Discounting that scenario for a minute, the price of oil is only ever going to continue upwards. We only have one planet after all and it takes a few million years for the planet to produce more of the stuff. Even in America where petrol is taxed far less than here, the price per gallon just keeps going up and up.

*edit* Not to mention that we need oil for making other stuff as well, not just petrol and diesel! Can you imagine a world without plastics?

johnos1984

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

*edit* Not to mention that we need oil for making other stuff as well, not just petrol and diesel! Can you imagine a world without plastics?

Or vasaline :eek:

goat2

hsi wrote: »

I was thinking of buying the Nissan Leaf because of the Goverment grant.

But its €29,995 after Government incentive.... Was thinking of using it for urban travel, and it does 160Km on 1 charge.

But 30k is a lot of money, I know Tax and Fuel will be small.. but still it would be cheaper to get a regular 15K 2nd hand.

Its there any real incentive to buy the car? I suppose the Middle-Upper classes can afford it, but for the majority its pricey.

29,995 really it is 30,000, incentive me aris

squod

Making a car which works on batteries is a bleedin environmental disaster AFAIK. The batteries alone cause all kinds of pollution in the countries they're made in and end up being dumped in. This is always the mental picture I come up with when I think of ''electric'' cars.

Before.........


After.......

Technoprisoner

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Oil is way harder to get now than it was in 1973 and we're also in more competition for it with countries like China and India. It's far from impossible that we could have another very sharp rise in the price of oil. If this happened I imagine electric car owners would look like oracles and that 30k a good investment.

Discounting that scenario for a minute, the price of oil is only ever going to continue upwards. We only have one planet after all and it takes a few million years for the planet to produce more of the stuff. Even in America where petrol is taxed far less than here, the price per gallon just keeps going up and up.

*edit* Not to mention that we need oil for making other stuff as well, not just petrol and diesel! Can you imagine a world without plastics?

well for a car that has an $18000 battery in it id be a bit sceptical...oh and dont forget as the price of oil goes up so will the price of electricity;)

Sesshoumaru

Technoprisoner wrote: »

well for a car that has an $18000 battery in it id be a bit sceptical...oh and dont forget as the price of oil goes up so will the price of electricity;)

I didn't say I'd buy one myself. I'm sceptical as well. For me the leaf is like the first gen iPhone, nice! But you know the next model will be much better and probably cheaper as well.

Nuclear power isn't affected much by oil prices.

Technoprisoner

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I didn't say I'd buy one myself. I'm sceptical as well. For me the leaf is like the first gen iPhone, nice! But you know the next model will be much better and probably cheaper as well.

Nuclear power isn't affected much by oil prices.

of course it is...oil is still used to lubracate the rotating parts in nuclear power production....and what about the ships that bring the fuel from country to country

Sesshoumaru

Technoprisoner wrote: »

of course it is...oil is still used to lubracate the rotating parts in nuclear power production....and what about the ships that bring the fuel from country to country

I don't see us getting to the stage where we can't buy some WD40 for a nuclear power station. How much oil do you think a nuclear power station needs directly on a daily basis? I'm not an expert on nuclear power station design, but I'm pretty sure the only major moving part in one would be the steam turbines and I doubt they're some archaic 19th century design either, they won't need people pouring buckets of oil on them every few seconds.