Am i training too hard? how do i know when?

Torakx

Hey folks.
Ive been looking to join an mma club for a few months now,but only in the last week have i been able to get the gear i needed to start running to get my fitness up.Id like to have enough cardio to last an hour or two of jiujitsu for example.
The issue i have is that i am impatient to get started and im not sure if im pushing myself too hard or not.
Mainly its to do with my knees and around that area.How much soreness is ok? Also i got a bit of a twinge on the outside of my left knee when sprinting due to not warming up properly and wondering should i carry on as is, if it doesnt get any worse? It feel like a minor muscle that might be a bit torn or feels bruised.
I have been running for about half an hour to an hour about 5-6 days in the first week.
I read and hear about having rest days but so far the muscle soreness seems to go away after i warm up with a 10 min walk to the park and then jogging 3x five minute laps with a fast sprint at the end of each one,plus a few regular laps walking and jogging.
So im wondering should i give it a rest every second day or carry on as i am and monitor the soreness.
Or do a shorter session each day?
Ive been around boards for long enough to know about medical advice being naughty so if possible i would appreciate just any ideas and thoughts people might have that isnt medical advice to keep it clean as it were.
Anything that will help me improve fast will be much appreciated.
Thanks.

El Horseboxo

Without getting into that medical advice quagmire i'll ask you if you are running on solid ground and if you are using proper running shoes? Also even the grass is hard at this time of the year. I know if i run without proper shoes on the conrete my knees get sore.

You yourself admit you are not warming up properly. Make sure you warm up and stretch correctly. You should be easily able to find a warm up guide for running on the net.

For me i would mostly assosiate rest days inbetween days where i have lifted weights. And i'd only do that when bulking and not doing cardio. If i was just solely running and doing cardio without any weight work i would probably do it 5 days. Perhaps, Mon, Tues, Thurs, Fri, Sat.

Anyways as i'm not a professional you're better off seeking professional advice.

Torakx

Yeah the outside left knee is either from when i did my first jog and sprinted too early or my new runners which are a pair of nike i got down from 115 to 75 euro in the sales.
It could be the new runners forcing a new angle on my knees as i run.I have bowed legs i think from years of playing soccer.
After that first time though i did some research with youtube and have found the right warm up drills to suit me.
I used to have a problem even touching my toes a few days ago and today i can touch the ground barefoot.
Also i run on hard ground in the park.I think its tarmac not sure.On a dryer day i used a football pitch to run between goal posts.Not sure which is better to do.
Thanks for the info on rest days. At least i know what one other person would do.
Another thing is should gage rest by the amount of soreness the next day or just ignore that?

For now i will try keep at least 2 days rest split evenly in the week.

SanoVitae

Torakx wrote: »

I needed to start running to get my fitness up.Id like to have enough cardio to last an hour or two of jiujitsu for example.

I think you'll quickly find out that BJJ fitness is totally difference from being fit enough to run laps. I'd recommend you do a lot of bodyweight exericises on the Metcon thread - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055968930&highlight=metcon

Also you'll find some great BJJ drills like this on the Net which are very useful -> http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1508926/individual_exercises_www_learnbjjtechniques_com/

Shane Fitz

Torakx, why do you think you need to get fit, to begin MMA training??. the simple answer is that there are no substitutes for just rolling, or sparing.. you will find that you can run all the laps you want, and even to the extent of elite level times for set distance, but the first time you roll, you'll be pooped... as a coach of mine once said, running is great training for ....... running. if you want to do MMA just get into it.. you will find you will be no worse or better fitness wise than alot of others in your class.
However if you have a specfic injury or weakness in your knees, get it seen to professionally.

Torakx

I decided to do some running for cardio because i tried two classes in an mma gym and i couldnt finish the warm up without having to stop for a breather.Still trying to give up smoking and this mma is supposed to be one of the replacements for that.
Then a couple mins into jiujitsu and i was done for.So i figured i would just be wasting my money on membership fees if i waited to get fit as i rolled(also if im unfit DOMS is gonna kill me and il end up doing less days in the gym).
I have been looking into doing body weight drills as i have been searching on youtube with mma and drills.The original idea was do running for cardio then switch to body weight drills later, then join the mma club and hopefully be able to go something like 4 times a week min.
I can barely afford the membership so for me its important my body can keep up for at least a whole class.
I will try cut the jogging down since it isnt as beneficial as i thought it might.
Maybe 4 times a week sprinting would be better and bodyweight drills at home in between?

I think though that even the jogging i have done so far has helped me get closer to where i was years ago.I think i will survive the warm ups running in circles at least now.
The first time, i went in just straight from the couch lol
Thanks for the replies, have all been very helpfull.

Ps no idea if i have weak knees.Might do, but i may research next how to strengthen my knees safely just in case.

Shane Fitz

well done then on sticking with the running and feeling that you have gotten fitter, thats half the battle.. but as an aside.. you're are still going to get pooped a few mins into a jiu jitsu roll... you'll be lying there wrecked wondering why your partner isnt even sweating!! its been the same road for every jiu jitsu player. for many months you'll be left wondering how in the hell you are tired and they are not.. you'll get smashed, tired and sore.. but one day, suddenly it will "just happen" for you.. and when it does you'll walk off the mat feeling great. as for the DOMS, you're going to feel pain in all sorts of new ways and places, but stick with it and i've no doubt you'll reap the benifit.. you seem to have the determination.

SanoVitae

A good workout for MMA is Bas Rutten's workout -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sspWlutVnmc

FTA69

The posters above have it. BJJ, boxing, Muay Thai etc all take conditioning, that conditioning is developed over time. Working on the mats takes conditioning, hitting bags takes conditioning etc and while running is beneficial to that it can't replace just getting stuck in.

I've started a similar path to yourself, and the odd time I've to drop off for a few seconds. But I'll stick at it, because it gets a bit easier every session. Get stuck in and give it time, intricate martial arts like BJJ take time and commitment to become proficient; even when you are fit you're still going to get hammered to f*ck, the rare occasions I get mount or side control I don't even know what to do. Again, practice. If you're improving every class then that's not a waste of money at all.

That having been said, injury is a real possibility. Especially when you're being fired across mats or having someone punch you in the face. Warm-ups and stretching are essential, if necessary arrive a few minutes early to stretch more. I do that with BJJ and it's beneficial.

deadlybuzzman

I second everything thats been said about ditching the running-bodyweight drills are the way to go. Now I wasnt a smoker but when I started bjj/mma I was in bits doing just the warm up nevermind the actual rolling-if youre going into a class along with people that arent beginners Id be inclined to push yourself really really hard for 2 weeks 1st doing drills just so that you can get something out of the class.
If its a white belts class maybe a week, youre call but I puked a few times over the years so its never gonna be that easy anyway.
N.B. if youve tweaked a joint, dont go anywhere near a mat until its 100%, a kneebar or heel hook even lightly put on could banjax your knee if it goes wrong. Sore Muscle Good, Sore Joint Bad....Always

optimistic_

While I agree with the majority of the above, it's my opinion that regardless of your sport a good cardio base is important for all sports - steady state cardio and sprint exercises (hill sprints etc).

A point to note is that the pain you describe could be a number of things and a good warmup will most likely help to avoid future damage, a big problem for all runners and especially people starting out is their itb (outer thigh) becomes very tight, to the point of injury to other parts of your legs (I injured my knee this way last year) Your best bet for now is to see a physio and once confirmed he'll massage the tightness from the leg. After that, invest in a foam roller if you intend to keep up any exercise.

Torakx

The outer thigh.Thats interesting to note.
Is a foam roller really necessary or will make that big a dfference compared to just massaging muscles myself and stretching?
I ask because i think i would be too lazy to use it unless i will see a notable dfference with DOMS for example(havent alot of room at home for stretching out,just in a straight line and arms length in width).That would spur me to do it often i think.

I was briefly considering looking at some yoga drills to improve flexibility and for better overall stretching aswell as core strength drills if its possible to do them without equipment.

And finally how much is it roughly to see a physio or someone to make sure i am not damaging my knees with bad posture etc?
Im extremely broke so im doubting thats even an option or necesary if i can possibly research it myself and sort it that way.

deadlybuzzman

Torakx wrote: »

The outer thigh.Thats interesting to note.
Is a foam roller really necessary or will make that big a dfference compared to just massaging muscles myself and stretching?
I ask because i think i would be too lazy to use it unless i will see a notable dfference with DOMS for example(havent alot of room at home for stretching out,just in a straight line and arms length in width).That would spur me to do it often i think.

I was briefly considering looking at some yoga drills to improve flexibility and for better overall stretching aswell as core strength drills if its possible to do them without equipment.

And finally how much is it roughly to see a physio or someone to make sure i am not damaging my knees with bad posture etc?
Im extremely broke so im doubting thats even an option or necesary if i can possibly research it myself and sort it that way.

k it sounds like youre losing focus a little bit-if your knee isnt great rest it if its ok hammer the crap out of yourself to get some vestige of fitness so you dont embarresss yourself on the mats.
you said the L word and thats never a good sign-whats this yoga thing about? if you want to fully explore the intricacies of the rubber guard in time great, but no need for any of that when your learning the basics. core strength? spend an hour a night trying to get out from under some big lump, thatll give ya core strength!! get in, try it for 6 months and see what you think of it then

cc87

Resting it wouldnt be a great option if you intend on taking up more activity. Rest will only hide the issue and it could come back again more severely.

deadlybuzzman

cc87 wrote: »

Resting it wouldnt be a great option if you intend on taking up more activity. Rest will only hide the issue and it could come back again more severely.

so you dont advocate giving it a chance to heal if indeed there is an injury?

Torakx

Thanks good advice and funny too lol
Its not that im lazy its just i am a bit of a perfectionist or try too hard.
I would use a foam roller but would first need to visualise or see a real need to be using it.Like if there isnt another way around it then i would get one and use it if its necesarry or the effort is worth the end result.

Regarding the yoga and core strength i guess i want to cover everything to be the best i can.
Its a bit of a big step to actually go and join any social group and its my challenge to myself in the extreme.Also when i say im going to do somethign there ussually is a stubborn streak where i have to do it then and i ussually want to do it right so i complete it well.
So i would consider ballet if i thought it would give me more speed and grace lol..well actually i have considered it but i dont want to wear tights! (im reminded of anderson silva doing capoeira moves gracefully in the cage,he is pretty slick and fast with the footwork and i think it might have helped him in that respect)
The yoga was in my mind possibly a good way to get extra flexibility over normal mma training so i could do well in surviving submissions and pulling off moves easier and better in general.But im open to the idea its a waste if i see why
Recently i saw a video of a woman who runs and does yoga.Her stretches post run were much better and effective even pushing me to stretch other areas i hadnt seen in regular warm up stretching or mma videos.
The stretches were also alot more deep which i think i need to become more flexible.

I will soon join the mma club.At the moment im not sure if i have enough money for rent and all the food i need for this month so its kind of touch and go when il start.Plus i want to work my upper body next so i dont burn out tryng to choke someone this time

By the way i was supposed to be having a rest day today but ended up walking for an hour and a half to get my shopping which i carry in a backpack.Is that bad for a rest day? My legs and around my knees where still a bit achey.Especially if i go to jog a little the first few steps are sore then its seems to go away.Pretty sure its just old muscles getting a new workout this last week.
But i was told before to ignore the muscle soreness as its just doms and you can power on through that and it should be ok.Is that that case?
I dont mind the pain its just the DOMS after jiujitsu last time i could hardly move my arms for a few days after which will effect how many classes i can do.Hence the wait before joining as i try to get in shape.

cc87

deadlybuzzman wrote: »

so you dont advocate giving it a chance to heal if indeed there is an injury?

Yes but is there an injury? No one knows. What caused the possible injury? If it is just let rest and heal then what caused it will more than likely still be present and simply cause the injury again.
Im not saying dont let an injury heal. Im saying if what the injury really is and what really caused it isnt investigated then simply resting will only hide it for a short time.

One of the best resources around at the moment for flexibility mobility and all that jazz.
http://mobilitywod.blogspot.com/

deadlybuzzman

Torakx wrote: »

Thanks good advice and funny too lol
Its not that im lazy its just i am a bit of a perfectionist or try too hard.
I would use a foam roller but would first need to visualise or see a real need to be using it.Like if there isnt another way around it then i would get one and use it if its necesarry or the effort is worth the end result.

Regarding the yoga and core strength i guess i want to cover everything to be the best i can.
Its a bit of a big step to actually go and join any social group and its my challenge to myself in the extreme.Also when i say im going to do somethign there ussually is a stubborn streak where i have to do it then and i ussually want to do it right so i complete it well.
So i would consider ballet if i thought it would give me more speed and grace lol..well actually i have considered it but i dont want to wear tights! (im reminded of anderson silva doing capoeira moves gracefully in the cage,he is pretty slick and fast with the footwork and i think it might have helped him in that respect)
The yoga was in my mind possibly a good way to get extra flexibility over normal mma training so i could do well in surviving submissions and pulling off moves easier and better in general.But im open to the idea its a waste if i see why
Recently i saw a video of a woman who runs and does yoga.Her stretches post run were much better and effective even pushing me to stretch other areas i hadnt seen in regular warm up stretching or mma videos.
The stretches were also alot more deep which i think i need to become more flexible.

I will soon join the mma club.At the moment im not sure if i have enough money for rent and all the food i need for this month so its kind of touch and go when il start.Plus i want to work my upper body next so i dont burn out tryng to choke someone this time

By the way i was supposed to be having a rest day today but ended up walking for an hour and a half to get my shopping which i carry in a backpack.Is that bad for a rest day? My legs and around my knees where still a bit achey.Especially if i go to jog a little the first few steps are sore then its seems to go away.Pretty sure its just old muscles getting a new workout this last week.
But i was told before to ignore the muscle soreness as its just doms and you can power on through that and it should be ok.Is that that case?
I dont mind the pain its just the DOMS after jiujitsu last time i could hardly move my arms for a few days after which will effect how many classes i can do.Hence the wait before joining as i try to get in shape.

Ive feeling you might be feeling a bit insecure about being the new guy but dont sweat it youre expected to get tapped alot at the start-youll learn with every submission. Anytime I came back after a lay off i got tapped loads, no biggie.
The DOMS goes with the territory. A very important piece of advice-dont overthink just dive in. same goes for when your rolling once you know the basics, dont think just do

deadlybuzzman

cc87 wrote: »

Yes but is there an injury? No one knows. What caused the possible injury? If it is just let rest and heal then what caused it will more than likely still be present and simply cause the injury again.
Im not saying dont let an injury heal. Im saying if what the injury really is and what really caused it isnt investigated then simply resting will only hide it for a short time.

One of the best resources around at the moment for flexibility mobility and all that jazz.
http://mobilitywod.blogspot.com/

if hes tweaked something its an injury-what caused it was weakness or imbalance due to a lack of physical activity up to now-possibly could have an underlying cause but unlikely at this present moment as its not a recurring injury, 9 times out of 10 you get a twinge, rest it it goes away, and as he becomes more active his body will adapt.
if you hear hooves expect donkeys not zebras

cc87

deadlybuzzman wrote: »

if hes tweaked something its an injury-what caused it was weakness or imbalance due to a lack of physical activity up to now-possibly could have an underlying cause but unlikely at this present moment as its not a recurring injury, 9 times out of 10 you get a twinge, rest it it goes away, and as he becomes more active his body will adapt.
if you hear hooves expect donkeys not zebras

Well i hope for the OPs sake thats all it is but i would still strongly recommend getting checked out by a good physio.

Weakness and imbalances rarely just work themselves out.

Torakx

Can barely afford to feed myself so a physio is most likely not an option.
Im pushing my limits with joining the mma club as it is hehe
Im pretty sure its muscle soreness from over doing it jogging and sprinting this last week.Both knees are kinda sore in different places now so i think its just one twinge on the outside left knee and rest is DOMS.Can feel it getting better already.
Im taking glucosamine capsules the odd time too but not sure if its usefull or not.Says helps rebuild cartilage and i figured might be a good idea for my knees as i believe with bending down say with squats where you are halfway i have weak knees.
Might just need to build up my strength in that area to keep them safe.
but any extra advice on doing that is always appreciated.
Im guessing jumping squats will be good for that.

optimistic_

I have to say, in response to your query regarding foam rolling thy you will absolutely see a difference. Learnt use it properly, it 100% without doubt helps in the prevention of injuries related to tight muscles.

Can't recommend seeing a physio enough, even for a once off. They're professional and will most likely assess and treat the injury in one session and provide you with advice on prevention. You're looking at iffy euro, but in fairness if you had some illness you wouldn't hesitate to pay it to the doctor for treatment. This is no different, maybe more serious as continuing to exercise on an injury can result in more permanent damage.

Torakx

Actually i wouldnt go near a doctor again haha they ran me through so many useless hoops for years.
Kind of why i tend to do everything myself with my own research.
Had to diagnose myself with candida and its pretty much fixed now.Which is partly why i want to get into mma to get my health back up as i lost a ton of weight and am very thin now.Which in turn is why i believe i need to prepare more than most as i also smoked for 3 years straight.

But i would respect a physio as i havent been screwed over by one yet(plus i dont think theres profit in medicating as a physio lol)
I might be able to save up 50 euro over a month or three and will definetly consider seeing one just to get an all round checkup mostly the knees though.
Those joints have had alot of pounding over the years with work and soccer.

By the way thanks again everyone for the advice so far.
Im going to cut down the jogging now and start introducing a bodyweight workout and yoga for my stretches.
I think as people mentioned it would be best to train my body in what i will be doing most.So the body weight drills should do a good all over workout and push my cardio hard at the same time.
Going to try write out a schedule today and pin it on my wall to remind me.
I will then keep that up maybe 6 days a week.
Was thinking to do jogging maybe 2-3 days a week and inbetween the bodyweight drills with light stretches before and maybe yoga stretches after.

Barry.Oglesby

Hey Torakx,
I'm a purple belt in BJJ and a coach. If I take a week or two off the mats and then roll for an hour with someone who is better or equivalent to me for a session, I'll be wrecked, have no grip strength the next day, have DOMS and feel generally terrible!

It's a continuing process and training is difficult but very enjoyable. I'll make a video of some very fit guys doing some BJJ training this coming Tuesday and post it here with the mods permission. They're "fit" but don't train grappling and I guarantee they'll be wrecked.

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is without doubt the most rewarding, most stimulating, most enjoyable sport I've ever been involved in, and I would encourage anyone who is thinking about joining a BJJ club to just take the leap. Being tired, having to sit off to the side, feeling like your lungs are falling out is all a part of the right of passage every beginner goes through in this sport. Getting through that initial period is difficult, but nothing will make it easier except time on the mats.

Whereabouts is it you're thinking of training?

Barry

Torakx

Thanks Barry for the encouragement
I am planning on joining SBG on the long mile road.
Have already done a judo session and a jiujitsu one also(really enjoyed it).The judo was easy enough and wasnt even tired really.But the next day the jiujitsu wiped me out just doing the warm up haha
Then a couple mins of attempting to get a RNC i gassed out my arms.Although i still had yesterdays steak and veg plus that mornings eggs in me so maybe thats why i was suffering so bad.
I had a word with the trainer (John Kavanagh) and he pretty much said the same as everyone else.Just keep rolling and in a few months i will be able to do a few rolls in a row.
I just find it very hard to jump into stuff.I always need to cover my bases and plan ahead to be prepared.
Its a habit of mine and i understand i should just go but im barely able to afford the membership so i am saving the money at the moment so i can get roughly in better shape and then il have a few months saved in advance so i dont have to worry about that too.

Oh by the way i am looking at doing a paleo diet no carbs because i also am recovering from candida.
I wanted to ask someone who does jiu jitsu what do they eat and how long before a class?
Im wondering if a fry up of bacon eggs with salad is ok or too heavy.

Barry.Oglesby

Well it sounds like you have to make that choice by yourself if it's a matter of finances and health too. I can only encourage you to join as soon as you can afford it and to get stuck in. You'll love it.

best of luck with it and I hope to see you at future competitions and events soon!

discus

Torakx wrote: »

Oh by the way i am looking at doing a paleo diet no carbs because i also am recovering from candida.

Whats the logic in this? Since when do low-carb diets help kick a candidas infection? It might be worth asking about diets for training - you should be fuelling yourself, not denying yourself energy!

Torakx

I guess since they discovered how to cure candida naturally? Not really sure what your getting at to be honest.Candida is a form of yeast naturally occuring in the gut.It feeds off sugars and anything with alot of carbs for example pasta potatoes etc. And continues to grow leaving my blood sugar levels normal no matter how much sugar i eat.
So the cure is a restricted diet to kill off most of the yeast and also balance out the natural flora to counter this.All my symptoms cleared within 2 weeks of this diet so im pretty confident and have tested when i switch back to eating carbs i get depressed and groggy and feel sick in general, many tmes ive done this out of cravings just eating porridge and notice the effect returning.
Also a BJJ instructor iirc on boards recommended to me the paleo diet for training.
Ive been researching ketosis btw also and still finding more info on it to be sure.

discus

Apologies, I though you were referring to oral (or some other kind of :pac:) thrush.

I actually just took a brief look at the alternative treatments to the supposed overgrowth of candida albicans in the gut. If changing your diet releases you from those symptoms, then carry on!

Torakx

Actually you are correct.Oral thrush is also a sign of systemic candiasis(unless you smoke then it could be both).
But afaik is treated with a restricted diet or pump the body full of chemicals if a doctor is prefered(although a doc wont diagnose this you have to tell them you have it lol).