Fraudulent social welfare estimates?

zig

Just wondering is there any articles with current estimates on money lost through fraudulent social welfare? I know the money saved would be a drop in the ocean compare to money going to banks etc but every bit helps and am wondering why isnt there any investment putting into cracking down on this.
Even if you could save 500 million at the end of the year , its something.

Sleepy

Given that our welfare and taxation systems practically encourage fraud I don't think there's the motivation there to chase down those that "are only doing what everyone else is doing"...

Any estimates are going to be wildly off as they'll be compiled by those who stand to be blamed (not fired, mind you) for the lack of adequate checking of welfare claims.

Though, to be fair, there are many reports that the Dept. of Welfare is under-staffed (even if it's practices are no-doubt wasteful, overly-beauracratic and it's staff largely lacking in relevant 3rd level education and/or work-ethic, they could do with some of the unnecessary admin staff in other public areas being drafted in to assist) and the real blame lies with the politicians who have made living off the welfare state so attractive an option.

Antomus Prime

Sleepy wrote: »

I don't think there's the motivation there to chase down those that "are only doing what everyone else is doing"...

Well there should be!!!! I'm sick of hearing people say "the system is so easy to cheat, you should claim this and that even if you're not entitled to it!"

No I shouldn't, it's stealing...... plain and simple!!!
Just because the government made it easy and appealing to live of the state doesn't mean it's ok to do it.
If you ask me there should be an agency set up that deals solely with investigation welfare fraud. I refused to move in my an ex gf of mine because she was on rent allowance. She didn't see anything wrong with me working 40 hours a week and living off the state! I did....

I've even heard people saying they were gonna have another baby purely to get a bigger house from the council, that kind of thinking just pisses me off.

Riskymove

Sleepy wrote: »

they could do with some of the unnecessary admin staff in other public areas being drafted in to assist) .

other departments have been hit with a 'levy' of staff to transfer to SW

Cookie_Monster

anthonyk.is wrote: »

I refused to move in my an ex gf of mine because she was on rent allowance. She didn't see anything wrong with me working 40 hours a week and living off the state! I did....

I've even heard people saying they were gonna have another baby purely to get a bigger house from the council, that kind of thinking just pisses me off.

Welcome to Ireland the land of saint and scholars entitlements and benefit fraud

Antomus Prime

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Welcome to Ireland the land of saint and scholars entitlements and benefit fraud

Yup, countries gone to s**t!!

Roll on summer, I'm outta here!!!!!

Sleepy

anthonyk.is wrote: »

Well there should be!!!! I'm sick of hearing people say "the system is so easy to cheat, you should claim this and that even if you're not entitled to it!"

No I shouldn't, it's stealing...... plain and simple!!!
Just because the government made it easy and appealing to live of the state doesn't mean it's ok to do it.
If you ask me there should be an agency set up that deals solely with investigation welfare fraud. I refused to move in my an ex gf of mine because she was on rent allowance. She didn't see anything wrong with me working 40 hours a week and living off the state! I did....

I've even heard people saying they were gonna have another baby purely to get a bigger house from the council, that kind of thinking just pisses me off.

I think you mis-understood me. I'm not saying that welfare fraud is acceptable. I'm saying that it's effectively unpreventable for a number of reasons:

1. The benefits available being so high. At present an unmarried single earner supporting a partner and 2 children needs to earn in excess of €39,330 (gross) to obtain a premium above their welfare entitlements (assuming a rent level of 1k p.m. and ignoring Childrens allowance which disregards income levels and other ancilliary benefits such as medical card, back to school allowance, reduced transport/clothing costs etc. which are harder to quantify in monetary terms).

2. Our electoral system encourages clientelism. Many welfare frauds have probably received a TD's help in making their welfare claim or would be straight on to the local cute hoor who'd 'make an intervention on their behalf'.

3. The high cost of Public Sector activity and the inability of most welfare frauds to repay what they've stolen would lead to a "clampdown" on this type of activity costing the taxpayer money rather than saving her anything. The UK had a spectacular failure in this regard last year.

4. Even were it possible to achieve savings in this fashion, the political will is not there to tackle our bloated welfare system.

Riskymove wrote:

other departments have been hit with a 'levy' of staff to transfer to SW

While this sounds like a step in the right direction, it seems an odd way of doing things. Surely the unnecessary staff in other departments could be identified readily enough without the need to use a 'levy' system?

not yet

simple answer is somewhere between 2-4 billion.

zig

not yet wrote: »

simple answer is somewhere between 2-4 billion.

I really doubt it. If it was genuinely that much they would be pursuing it.

Cookie_Monster

not yet wrote: »

simple answer is somewhere between 2-4 billion.

I think that around 2 would be a reasonable estimate all in all inc health & welfare "entitlements". And that would be per year too. So even if they spent a billion this year setting up staff and processes to deal with it, it would still yield multiples of that in return.

donkey balls

Sleepy wrote: »

I think you mis-understood me. I'm not saying that welfare fraud is acceptable. I'm saying that it's effectively unpreventable for a number of reasons:

1. The benefits available being so high. At present an unmarried single earner supporting a partner and 2 children needs to earn in excess of €39,330 (gross) to obtain a premium above their welfare entitlements (assuming a rent level of 1k p.m. and ignoring Childrens allowance which disregards income levels and other ancilliary benefits such as medical card, back to school allowance, reduced transport/clothing costs etc. which are harder to quantify in monetary terms).

2. Our electoral system encourages clientelism. Many welfare frauds have probably received a TD's help in making their welfare claim or would be straight on to the local cute hoor who'd 'make an intervention on their behalf'.

3. The high cost of Public Sector activity and the inability of most welfare frauds to repay what they've stolen would lead to a "clampdown" on this type of activity costing the taxpayer money rather than saving her anything. The UK had a spectacular failure in this regard last year.

4. Even were it possible to achieve savings in this fashion, the political will is not there to tackle our bloated welfare system.


While this sounds like a step in the right direction, it seems an odd way of doing things. Surely the unnecessary staff in other departments could be identified readily enough without the need to use a 'levy' system?

What reduced transport/clothing costs does a family get?:eek: I am aware that a family could be entitled to some form of mortcage relieve but not the full amount.
As for the SW investigating bogus claims I happen to know a guy that is involved in investigations he told me sometime ago that their numbers got reduced,What should of happened during the low unemployment rate was to have more people investigate claims and make it impossible for bogus claims.

micro_dot

zig wrote: »

Just wondering is there any articles with current estimates on money lost through fraudulent social welfare? I know the money saved would be a drop in the ocean compare to money going to banks etc but every bit helps and am wondering why isnt there any investment putting into cracking down on this.
Even if you could save 500 million at the end of the year , its something.

There is a way we could save 85bn. That would be a start.
To me, now, all crime is relative.
As Mary Harney incentivised work about 10 years ago, should we have paid some bankers not to get out of bed at the same time?
I remember a guy who did some untaxed work while on the dole years back. He got dobbed in for, like, 75 quid or something and his dole was cut. The family had to depend on his oldest, teenage, daughter for food, bills, etc. I'll never forget it, she was my friend. It is, in my opinion, a Daily Mail-like fantasy that our problems lie with low level nixers, rather than structural problems in society. Anglo left us with an 85bn Euro bill that's being paid for out of hospital beds. That problem came from private schoolboys, not Southill. There are many people who will do time for crime that's been done to David Drumm's lovely Irish people. And I was always taught that example should come from above anyway.
How do you save €85bn in one go?

puffdragon

I live close enough to northern Ireland to know that the best way to stop your neighbours from breaking the law is to report them, or at least to have a set-up whereby people are too afraid to break the law in the certain knowledge that their neighbours will not let them.

In a perfect senario" a society which monitors itself " , whistle-blowers, informers, tell-tales, nosey parkers,
We can see from the recent past that with the "twitter age" that nothing is secret any more, we should worry about who is claiming dole and working or rent allowance or whatever, just make a phonecall , or a tweet or an e-mail ,easy, weed them out !!

Sure that's the way it should be , lets all work together to make this rotten society a better one .
I would actually be afraid not to put out my bin on a monday in case the neighbours would see it missing and start looking for smoke emanating suspiciously from my garden,(my neighbour does this," I SAW YOU" )

I have been the recipient of that phonecall,"the anonymous report" and was made to attend the social welfare office every day at different times each day for three weeks until the whole world was satisfied that I wasent actually working every day, yes they reported me and I know by the sheepish looks I get from the person, who exactly made the call.

But I'm not bitter because I genuinely feel that Ireland is changing for the better, I like some of the whispers of change coming from the pretenders to government, and hope they follow up on their clean-up it can only benefit the country in the long run.

In the mean time we are shackled by an enormous debt which would scare most people and if someone in a job cant risk losing it by reporting a fraud then that's completely understandable, it would take a very brave person to risk their job at this time, so we shouldn't expect this type of internal "twittering" reform to happen overnight, but personally I would expect everyone from the lowest to the highest to be honest .

What we really have to grasp is that like it or not we have already been sold down the river and the hard working Guards, Teachers, Council workers and Public Servants will pay for it for some time to come, my wife is still working so Im a sort of a house husband at the moment , since I have only part time work my social welfare is about €100 , basically we take home about €300 - €350 a week between us and we only survive because we live so close to the cheap stuff in the north, the early winter has'nt helped.

Anyway thats beside the point we have to clean up the whole system from top to bottom , I mean theirs always going to be the guy who gets the job because he knows someone , or the politician making representations for certain chosen individuals but In general the whole mentality and atmosphere of the political and public service has to change, otherwise the wee man on the street will think he has a right to be dishonest because "sure their all at it"

REPORT ! REPORT ! REPORT ! WHISTLEBLOW ! keep going we'll soon fix the world!! There are too many secrets!!

Sleepy

donkey balls wrote: »

What reduced transport/clothing costs does a family get?:eek: I am aware that a family could be entitled to some form of mortcage relieve but not the full amount.

Transport costs are lower if you don't have to travel to work. For many, there's also an additional cost to employment of having to maintain a work wardrobe e.g. Safety Boots, Suits, Dry Cleaning etc.

My figures were taken on the example of a family renting rather than paying a mortgage as there's no way the state should be paying for anyone's mortgage imho. There's a duty on the state to ensure that it's poorest have a roof over their heads but that does not extend to buying an over-priced house for them as far as I'm concerned.

Click to Confirm

"THIS is the new public service card designed to clamp down on welfare fraud and bogus identities that three million people will start receiving in the new year"

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/new-public-service-card-to-crack-down-on-welfare-fraud-2467197.html

tails_naf

zig wrote: »

I really doubt it. If it was genuinely that much they would be pursuing it.

'fraid so zig. Prime Time Investigates did a special on it a few months back.
it is at least 2 billion.

It also covered fraud investigations - something like 100 a year (i.e. tiny percentage of cases..), and they showed one case where a fella defrauded SW for about 40k over a few years, was caught, tried and convicted - and what was his sentance?
No jail, and a fine of something like 2k.
So nett profit of 38k for that lads misdeeds!

That is why there is fraud - because there is no down side.

They should be going after the fraud hard - but then they should be doing a lot of things...

If caught in welfare fraud - there should be:
1) mandatory repayment of all amount defrauded, over time if needs be (+x percent)
2) ban from getting SW benefits for y years (depending on severity of case)
3) mandatory community service work
4) Jail time, if say over 5k total
5) mandatory deportation if a non national

A few high profile cases through the courts and on the news, and I think the 2 billion would reduce itself pretty quick!

fliball123

tails_naf wrote: »

'fraid so zig. Prime Time Investigates did a special on it a few months back.
it is at least 2 billion.

It also covered fraud investigations - something like 100 a year (i.e. tiny percentage of cases..), and they showed one case where a fella defrauded SW for about 40k over a few years, was caught, tried and convicted - and what was his sentance?
No jail, and a fine of something like 2k.
So nett profit of 38k for that lads misdeeds!

That is why there is fraud - because there is no down side.

They should be going after the fraud hard - but then they should be doing a lot of things...

If caught in welfare fraud - there should be:
1) mandatory repayment of all amount defrauded, over time if needs be (+x percent)
2) ban from getting SW benefits for y years (depending on severity of case)
3) mandatory community service work
4) Jail time, if say over 5k total
5) mandatory deportation if a non national

A few high profile cases through the courts and on the news, and I think the 2 billion would reduce itself pretty quick!

Ideally this would be good but in a country when likes of fingers finglton and Drummer can get away with transfering property and money away before new legislation we have not got a hope

tails_naf

fliball123 wrote: »

Ideally this would be good but in a country when likes of fingers finglton and Drummer can get away with transfering property and money away before new legislation we have not got a hope

No reason both things cannot be tackled in parallel. I do hope to see a cleaning up at the top, but we need to clean up across the board, and I don't mind what order it happens in, as long as it starts to happen!

fliball123

tails_naf wrote: »

No reason both things cannot be tackled in parallel. I do hope to see a cleaning up at the top, but we need to clean up across the board, and I don't mind what order it happens in, as long as it starts to happen!

True very true there is a lot of very unjust things going on but the difference is here a lot of people claiming of the scratch and defrauding it are struggling to make ends meat..Now I know that doesnt make it right but as I say while TDs/Bankers/Devs are getting away with it I think thats where they should start and work there way downwards

waxon-waxoff

Its way too easy and there is an attitude that its ok and why wouldnt i get money off them. People seem to think theres some limitless pot of money out there and theres nothing wrong with taking all you can from it.

Community welfare officers are part of the problem also. I know of somebody who returned home after a few months travelling around the world, went into the cwo the next day and walked out with a cheque to keep them going. Same person was complaining about the line of people in front of them demanding new prams etc as they were entitled to it after having another child :rolleyes:

djpbarry

anthonyk.is wrote: »

I've even heard people saying they were gonna have another baby purely to get a bigger house from the council, that kind of thinking just pisses me off.

I think that’s a pretty extreme example. Besides, anyone who thinks having a kid is profitable is an idiot.

Sleepy wrote: »

The high cost of Public Sector activity and the inability of most welfare frauds to repay what they've stolen would lead to a "clampdown" on this type of activity costing the taxpayer money rather than saving her anything. The UK had a spectacular failure in this regard last year.

But it shouldn’t be evaluated based on what gets recouped from fraudsters, it should be evaluated based on its effectiveness as a deterrent. If a convicted fraudster cannot repay what they have stolen, then they do community service, or they face prison, or they repay over time, or the state takes a share of their property, or whatever.

micro_dot wrote: »

It is, in my opinion, a Daily Mail-like fantasy that our problems lie with low level nixers, rather than structural problems in society. Anglo left us with an 85bn Euro bill that's being paid for out of hospital beds.

But it’s all related. There is a culture in Ireland of “it’s ok as long as you don’t get caught” or “sure isn’t everyone else at it?”. I was recently unemployed in Ireland, but not entitled to Jobseekers Benefit. I didn’t bother applying for JA as my missus’ family helped us out for a few months. I was absolutely astounded by the number of people who suggested I should pretend I was just a tenant in the missus’ property (our home was in her name) and that we weren’t actually a couple. Despite the fact that we didn’t need the money, the popular view was that I was “entitled” to something. Why? I have no idea. Presumably because everyone else sees themselves as being entitled to something for nothing. Let’s not even get into the fact that I would have to be dealing with complete morons in the local social welfare office to get the above story passed them.

Click to Confirm wrote: »

"THIS is the new public service card designed to clamp down on welfare fraud and bogus identities that three million people will start receiving in the new year"

I’m not convinced such a card would save a great deal. I’m guessing identity fraud is not such a big issue as people claiming benefits that they’re not actually entitled to.

tails_naf wrote: »

5) mandatory deportation if a non national

Why? Where’s the disincentive there? Why should foreign nationals be treated more leniently than Irish nationals?

fliball123 wrote: »

True very true there is a lot of very unjust things going on but the difference is here a lot of people claiming of the scratch and defrauding it are struggling to make ends meat..

Are they? I’m not convinced by that at all.

fliball123

djpbarry wrote: »

I think that’s a pretty extreme example. Besides, anyone who thinks having a kid is profitable is an idiot.
But it shouldn’t be evaluated based on what gets recouped from fraudsters, it should be evaluated based on its effectiveness as a deterrent. If a convicted fraudster cannot repay what they have stolen, then they do community service, or they face prison, or they repay over time, or the state takes a share of their property, or whatever.
But it’s all related. There is a culture in Ireland of “it’s ok as long as you don’t get caught” or “sure isn’t everyone else at it?”. I was recently unemployed in Ireland, but not entitled to Jobseekers Benefit. I didn’t bother applying for JA as my missus’ family helped us out for a few months. I was absolutely astounded by the number of people who suggested I should pretend I was just a tenant in the missus’ property (our home was in her name) and that we weren’t actually a couple. Despite the fact that we didn’t need the money, the popular view was that I was “entitled” to something. Why? I have no idea. Presumably because everyone else sees themselves as being entitled to something for nothing. Let’s not even get into the fact that I would have to be dealing with complete morons in the local social welfare office to get the above story passed them.
I’m not convinced such a card would save a great deal. I’m guessing identity fraud is not such a big issue as people claiming benefits that they’re not actually entitled to.
Why? Where’s the disincentive there? Why should foreign nationals be treated more leniently than Irish nationals?
Are they? I’m not convinced by that at all.

Maybe not all but a lot are hanging on in there and as I say if they can start at the top and work downwards..I aint saying its right but I think the person getting 190 a week and stuggling stiffing the public is bad but they are in some way trying to make ends meet ...where as bankers and other elete take huge loans feck up the whole country then transfer all to other fam members and are still getting the scratch..who is more unjust or which is harder to swallow