Reducing muscle soreness?

ItsYourTime

I injured my hamstring a few weeks back and I'm almost recovered from this after a few physio sessions and some daily stretches. Now my physio has prescribed me weight training for my legs to address an imbalance between my quads and hamstrings. It's a series of Squats, lunges, Dead lifts, leg presses etc. twice a week. This is all well and good but the problem is recovery time or lack of it. I have football training twice a week and usually a match at the weekend. So my plan would be to do these weights Monday and Friday, training Tuesday and Wednesday. I'm just a little worried that I'll be crippled on Tuesday and Wednesday and won't be able to run and also that I'll be doing damage by not allowing recovery days bar Thursday and Saturday. Can anyone give me any advice on this? I'm pretty sure this is common enough for alot of people recovering from injury? Any advice would be appreciated!

Einstein

You seem to be doing a lot considering you've had trouble with the hammers :P

Regular icing after training / matches etc.

No heat.

ItsYourTime

Cheers Einstein! I'll pick up plenty of ice formers so!

Do you reckon I should be taking it easier considering the hammer situation yeah?

Einstein

ItsYourTime wrote: »

Cheers Einstein! I'll pick up plenty of ice formers so!

Do you reckon I should be taking it easier considering the hammer situation yeah?

All depends on how the legs feel. Your body is the best one to ask for that.

If you do football training, and realise that your hammers are sore afterwards, take it a little easier next time. If your physio has you doing weights to strengthen them at this stage, it would indicate that they are well on the mend, but that doesn't mean you go full whack on them again

eilo1

Id definitely say back off the football and running. Not totally but as you know you need time to heal and strengthen.

Maybe you could just do the stretching and warm up/cool down in football?

And just jog shorter distances lightly for a couple of weeks?

That way you can put more power into your presses/lifts etc and be back to full time running and football in better shape than before the injury.

Transform

ItsYourTime wrote: »

I injured my hamstring a few weeks back and I'm almost recovered from this after a few physio sessions and some daily stretches. Now my physio has prescribed me weight training for my legs to address an imbalance between my quads and hamstrings. It's a series of Squats, lunges, Dead lifts, leg presses etc. twice a week. This is all well and good but the problem is recovery time or lack of it. I have football training twice a week and usually a match at the weekend. So my plan would be to do these weights Monday and Friday, training Tuesday and Wednesday. I'm just a little worried that I'll be crippled on Tuesday and Wednesday and won't be able to run and also that I'll be doing damage by not allowing recovery days bar Thursday and Saturday. Can anyone give me any advice on this? I'm pretty sure this is common enough for alot of people recovering from injury? Any advice would be appreciated!

lunges, squats, deadlifts and leg press are not going to make a dam of difference after a hamstring tear in my opinion.

I work with two excellent physical therapists and both would recommend exercises such as, glute bridges (also called Cook hip lifts), swiss ball leg curls (single leg ideally) single leg deadlifts, core stability work and then daily self massage of the area with a foam roll or ideally a tennis or lacrose ball. From there you could move on to SLDL's with more load, glute ham raises

Also be careful getting back to full top speed running before the hamstring is fully recovered.

discus

Transform wrote: »

lunges, squats, deadlifts and leg press are not going to make a dam of difference after a hamstring tear in my opinion.

I work with two excellent physical therapists and both would recommend exercises such as, glute bridges (also called Cook hip lifts), swiss ball leg curls (single leg ideally) single leg deadlifts, core stability work and then daily self massage of the area with a foam roll or ideally a tennis or lacrose ball. From there you could move on to SLDL's with more load, glute ham raises

Also be careful getting back to full top speed running before the hamstring is fully recovered.

I don't know what you're addressing with that post. He's seen his physio, been prescribed exercises and is asking about recovery.

Transform

discus wrote: »

I don't know what you're addressing with that post. He's seen his physio, been prescribed exercises and is asking about recovery.

what i am addressing is the over use of quad dominant exercises (lunges, squats, leg presses etc) when anyone i have ever seen with hamstring issues and have been referred on to me by specialists tend to have -

1. Tight calves and poor ankle mobility
2. A weak posterior chain
3. Finally - poor trunk stability

If all that is currently being addressed then great best of luck to him but please remember he stated that he was worried about it and has not yet done it all yet - "worried i will be crippled".

All the best

Einstein

Transform wrote: »

what i am addressing is the over use of quad dominant exercises (lunges, squats, leg presses etc) when anyone i have ever seen with hamstring issues and have been referred on to me by specialists tend to have -

1. Tight calves and poor ankle mobility
2. A weak posterior chain
3. Finally - poor trunk stability

If all that is currently being addressed then great best of luck to him but please remember he stated that he was worried about it and has not yet done it all yet - "worried i will be crippled".

All the best

Taking into consideration that 90% of the time, the location of the pain is not where the problem is, I can definitely see your point. But assuming that the Physio in question has assessed all that, I can appreciate the excercises prescribed to work on the opposing muscle group.

The flip side of that is that my core is terribly weak at the moment due to a problem with my lower SI joint and QL's...but my hamstrings are in tip top shape!

SanoVitae

Transform wrote: »

If all that is currently being addressed then great best of luck to him but please remember he stated that he was worried about it and has not yet done it all yet - "worried i will be crippled".

I think the OP is more concerned with the amount of exercise he has been prescribed (on top of what he's already doing) and whether he'll have enough recovery time, rather than the selection of exercises recommended to him by his physiotherapist.

Transform

i understand that but to me as an outside obsverver there is an elephant in the room that i would address however if he is just concerned about recovery then he should make sure that he sticks to low volume work on the weights, foam roll, keep the diet on track to increase recovery rate, ice and stretch

SanoVitae

Fair enough. I'm not a physiotherapist myself so I wouldn't be qualified to give any diagnoses or recommendations.

Transform

SanoVitae wrote: »

Fair enough. I'm not a physiotherapist myself so I wouldn't be qualified to give any diagnoses or recommendations.

neither am i but i work with them all the time and not once have i had a referral come to me with hamstring issues and the recommendation was to do (what i see as) excessive quad dominant exercises.

Its just like your smoke alarm is going off and you decide to take the battery out instead

SanoVitae

Transform wrote: »

neither am i but i work with them all the time and not once have i had a referral come to me with hamstring issues and the recommendation was to do (what i see as) excessive quad dominant exercises.

Its just like your smoke alarm is going off and you decide to take the battery out instead

Do you think the OP should then go see another physio and get a 2nd opnion?

mack32

i've read that supplementing with magnesium is supposed to help with muscle soreness/tightness, havent tried that though

i do use glutamine and find it beneficial

Einstein

SanoVitae wrote: »

Do you think the OP should then go see another physio and get a 2nd opnion?

I think we're maybe goin a little overboard here folks...

Transform...like I mentioned I realise why people have work done on their core, calves etc etc...but not if there's a direct injury to the hamstring.

I'm not a physio, but I'm a neuromuscular Therapist...check out below let me know what you think.

Scenario A) Client comes to me complaining of a tight lower back. After some work, we find out that the hamstrings are super tight and causing stiffness due to the muscle attachments. Hamstrings, QL's, quads and Psoas muscle are worked on to relieve all tightness from around pelvic area. Happy days.

Scenario Client comes in and complaining that they over stretched while playing Footy, and Hamstring is tender to the touch. Working on the back muscles aren't my concern here. I'll work around the tender area, into the glutes, the quads and maybe even the gastrox...If we have time, some light work on the lower back to avoid any tightening due to the hamstring injury, but it's not a priority for me.

I guess to sum up, if someone has a problem that develops over time...absolutley, straight into working on multiple areas of the body. But if someone gets a direct hit / strain / tear...work the local area and opposing muscles, giving the remainder of time to the attachments and insertions of the damaged musce group.

Thats how I'd approach things anyhoo.

Transform

yes i would agree with all of that entirely as both are logical approaches - what i take issue over is the inclusion of lunges, squats etc with no mention of work of core, hamstrings, foam rolling etc.

please keep in mind the original poster has not come back on any of this so its my bad if he is doing all of this and his physio has recommended what i mention already

Of course he/she will need hands on work directly on the hamstring but whats the next step after that to make sure it does not happen again? This is the specific point i am making.

there are lots of ways to approach this but i am just putting out there what i see daily and how i would suggest he/she might approach their training when they return to the gym. You can tell lots about someones training or even the physio advice if that first thing that is recommended after a hamstring tear is to do lunges etc

With any injury and a return to the gym i would strongly recommend that the first 10-15mins is spent working on rolling (ball and or foam roll), rehab exercises (or work them into your program), core work, mobility work and then you are good to go. Actually this applies to almost everyone as i have yet to work with a client that did not have some part of their body that is tight or weak that needed work.

Hope that helps

SanoVitae

Einstein wrote: »

I guess to sum up, if someone has a problem that develops over time...absolutley, straight into working on multiple areas of the body. But if someone gets a direct hit / strain / tear...work the local area and opposing muscles, giving the remainder of time to the attachments and insertions of the damaged musce group.

Thanks for that. That's definitely the approach of both our physio and neuromuscular therapist.

Einstein

Seems we're on the same page

Transform

cool now lets wait to see if the OP gets back to us all and my pissing and moaning

Einstein

Transform wrote: »

cool now lets wait to see if the OP gets back to us all and my pissing and moaning

He's probably sorry he asked :P

Nwm2

Einstein wrote: »

You seem to be doing a lot considering you've had trouble with the hammers :P

Regular icing after training / matches etc.

No heat.

Regarding regular icing, a recent study (will find the link if someone insists) showed that regular post exercise icing reduced the beneficial effects of the training on the muscle.

Just worth noting in case you are thinking of adopting this as a long term prctice.

Barry.Oglesby

Nwm2 wrote: »

Regarding regular icing, a recent study (will find the link if someone insists) showed that regular post exercise icing reduced the beneficial effects of the training on the muscle.

Yes please.:) Was this the one done on cyclists.*









*in saying that, let's face facts... every study seems to be done on cyclists!

K09

Hi,
Sorry for hijacking this thread but my issue is very similar.

My legs (hamstrings/glutes) are very stiff after a gym session yesterday - did squats.
I am to play 5aside soccer this evening.

Any suggestions on how to loosen up?

Thanks!!

Nwm2

K09 wrote: »

Hi,
Sorry for hijacking this thread but my issue is very similar.

My legs (hamstrings/glutes) are very stiff after a gym session yesterday - did squats.
I am to play 5aside soccer this evening.

Any suggestions on how to loosen up?

Thanks!!

I ran a 10k race on Monday and legs are still quite sore and I have a 5-a-side tonight too. I'll be doing the same as I normally do: 5-10 min warm up (jogging), then dynamic range of motion work. I wouldn't be doing any static stretching.

eilo1

Id keep moving around gently and then have a hot bath if I was you. I know that isnt the most scientific advice and kinde goes against the grain.
(3rd year physio so I know im not ment to tell you this)

But i used to work with horses and after a few weeks holidays, then going back to riding 6 race horses in a morning for 6 mornings in a row, crippled doesnt even come close! Honestly it was heaven to feel the muscles relax in the hot water.

Like it or not you are going to be stiff to some degree.

Nwm2

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Yes please.:) Was this the one done on cyclists.*

Here one such study (done on sprinters!) - not sure if this is the one I read or not, but the conclusions look familiar:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2762537/

From the conclusion:

"In summary, local ice therapy immediately following sprint-interval training was associated with a greater decrease in both pro- and anti-inflammatory cytokines and with a greater decrease in anabolic hormones. These results, along with the previously reported evidence for some negative effects of ice application on athletic performance, and no clear effect on muscle damage or DOMS may suggest that the use of cold packs should probably be reserved for traumatic injuries or used in combination with active recovery or massage and not with complete rest."

Here is one link discussing the study:

http://spartascience.blogspot.com/2010/03/icing-is-just-another-placebo.html

Nwm2

eilo1 wrote: »

Id keep moving around gently and then have a hot bath if I was you. I know that isnt the most scientific advice and kinde goes against the grain.
(3rd year physio so I know im not ment to tell you this)

But i used to work with horses and after a few weeks holidays, then going back to riding 6 race horses in a morning for 6 mornings in a row, crippled doesnt even come close! Honestly it was heaven to feel the muscles relax in the hot water.

Like it or not you are going to be stiff to some degree.

Is that an n=1 study, Mr 3rd Year??;)

I also personally always found a hot bath after a triathlon or 10k race very very beneficial, better than a cold bath (haven't tried ice).

That is for recovery. But the poster was looking to see how to fix his soreness in preparation for this evening. In that case, I'd be wary of the hot bath just before the game:

"The review of the basic science literature suggested five reasons why stretching before exercise would not prevent injuries. First, in animals, immobilization or heating-induced increases in muscle compliance cause tissues to rupture more easily. Second, stretching before exercise should have no effect for activities in which excessive muscle length is not an issue (e.g., jogging). Third, stretching won't affect muscle compliance during eccentric activity, when most strains are believed to occur. Fourth, stretching can produce damage at the cytoskeleton level. Fifth, stretching appears to mask muscle pain in humans."


From:
Stretching Before Exercise Does Not Reduce the Risk of Local Muscle Injury: A Critical Review of the Clinical and Basic Science Literature

eilo1

Its actually missy 3rd year and I swear by it. A good soak and the leci blanket oh its just lovely! But you have to keep moving through out the day.

On a slightly more academic note there is a theory that if you tear your type 2 (slow twitch) muscle fibers they can split and become type 1 (fast twitch) which is good for footie!!

Einstein

Nwm2 wrote: »

Here one such study (done on sprinters!) - not sure if this is the one I read or not, but the conclusions look familiar:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2762537/

From the conclusion:

"In summary, local ice therapy immediately following sprint-interval training was associated with a greater decrease in both pro- and anti-inflammatory cytokines and with a greater decrease in anabolic hormones. These results, along with the previously reported evidence for some negative effects of ice application on athletic performance, and no clear effect on muscle damage or DOMS may suggest that the use of cold packs should probably be reserved for traumatic injuries or used in combination with active recovery or massage and not with complete rest."

Here is one link discussing the study:

http://spartascience.blogspot.com/2010/03/icing-is-just-another-placebo.html

Great read!

I would also agree that ice should be mainly used in injury situations, the main reason I suggested it in the OP's case whas to prevent any inflammation due to the amount of work he's putting his hams through

Aaaahhh...the age old Ice v Heat Arguement :P

Maars

eilo1 wrote: »

..snip..
On a slightly more academic note there is a theory that if you tear your type 2 (slow twitch) muscle fibers they can split and become type 1 (fast twitch) which is good for footie!!

Really? Are you talking micro-tears here or full on rolling-on-the-ground-in-agony tears? Is this a well developed theory? Or did it just come to you in a bath-time eureka moment ?

Hanley

eilo1 wrote: »

Its actually missy 3rd year and I swear by it. A good soak and the leci blanket oh its just lovely! But you have to keep moving through out the day.

On a slightly more academic note there is a theory that if you tear your type 2 (slow twitch) muscle fibers they can split and become type 1 (fast twitch) which is good for footie!!

You got your numbers backwards there.

eilo1

sorry if i mixed up the numbers.

Im not sure how well developed that is, It just always stuck in my head. It was discussed in a physiology lecture in first year. I was trying to find the lecture but no luck so far. If I can there will be a reference with it and ill post it up.

Oh and we are talking micro filament tears.:D

discus

Transform wrote: »

i understand that but to me as an outside obsverver there is an elephant in the room that i would address however if he is just concerned about recovery then he should make sure that he sticks to low volume work on the weights, foam roll, keep the diet on track to increase recovery rate, ice and stretch

Which is nothing close to what you were saying in your first post of the thread. So which is it - a ton of those ultra-trendy sldls and ****, or keep what his physio has recommended but do it "low volume"...

Transform

discus wrote: »

Which is nothing close to what you were saying in your first post of the thread. So which is it - a ton of those ultra-trendy sldls and ****, or keep what his physio has recommended but do it "low volume"...

my first post stated that what was recommended looked overloaded with quad dominant exercises (lunges, squats etc) however i was jumping the gun as i do not know if his physio recommended any posterior chain movements.

There is no need to do as you say a 'TON' of 'ultratrendy' Single leg deadlifts just do bloody SOMETHING to work that area.

overall as i have stated, i have no idea what in full the physio recommended but i would hope that the physio DID include ham/glute work, core work and foam rolling/stretching.

The OP has not come back on this so I am not sure any of this is helping at all

SanoVitae

We have no real details as to what the actual problem is with the OP's hamstring. Just because he said there was an imbalance between his hamstrings and quads doesn't necessarily mean he should exercise his hamstrings more to solve the problem.

For all we know, it could be his lack of glute strength which is causing him the problems and that's he has been prescribed exercises like lunges, squats and leg presses.

Whatever the case, I'm pretty sure the physio knows what exercises to recommend to address the OP's injury.