Problem with new concrete yard, need advice.

Jimmy Garlic

My sister recently got a new concrete drive laid (back in September), there was a bit of dust on it since it set, she didn't worry too much about it thinking it would settle down. After the severe frost thawed she noticed lots of dusty footprints on her hall and her car tyres were picking it up and leaving tracks on the road outside her house, there was a slurry of grey gritty material all over the yard, it was like it was eroding or something, it is a mess... What the hell is wrong with it?. Bad quality concrete?? Workmanship??.. Any advice?. Would sealing it help or is it beyond salvage?.

muffler

Did she put salt on it during the big freeze?

Trhiggy83

I should know the answer to this
I think you may know the answer yourself tho by looking at it. If it was only layed a few months ago whoever put it down clearly got their mix proportions wrong and probably didnt include enough aggregate in the mix to bind the materials properly.
There is a few causes but the main cause is probably a dodgy mix. Not sure why it has shown up after the frost but i know that if the concrete is not layed and cured properly then freeze and thaw action will detiorate your drive very quickly.

Get the person/contractor around immediately and demand they redo the job, of course they will be reluctant to do this but its definately bad workmanship and nothing else.

Trhiggy83

muffler wrote: »

Did she put salt on it during the big freeze?

Salt would be a problem alright but only if the concrete was badly laid in the first instance. Either way it should not be coming up after a few months.

Jimmy Garlic

muffler wrote: »

Did she put salt on it during the big freeze?

Not as far as I am aware. I got my yard extended the summer before last and used salt on it that winter, no problems.

Jimmy Garlic

Trhiggy83 wrote: »

Get the person/contractor around immediately and demand they redo the job, of course they will be reluctant to do this but its definately bad workmanship and nothing else.

She already did, he told her a cock and bull story "a shur that's normal", he also told her not to have it powerwashed it for 12 months which makes me conclude that he knows well that it is f**ked.

Trhiggy83

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

She already did, he told her a cock and bull story "a shur that's normal", he also told her not to have it powerwashed it for 12 months which makes me conclude that he knows well that it is f**ked.

You should take a differant approach so. Get someone else to ring him up on her behalf, maybe even yourself but be very assertive and tell him that it needs to be redone as its not acceptable. Dont take no for an answer and dont listen to any of his excuses as they are all bullsh*t in my opinion. You should be able to power hose any concrete surface after 7 days even as the concrete should have cured sufficiently and be strong enough. Dont let him away - thats crap he told her


I think he will try to fob her off again with some other story if she rings him. Change of approach i reckon.


Let me know how you get on

Jimmy Garlic

Trhiggy83 wrote: »

You should take a differant approach so. Get someone else to ring him up on her behalf, maybe even yourself but be very assertive and tell him that it needs to be redone as its not acceptable. Dont take no for an answer and dont listen to any of his excuses as they are all bullsh*t in my opinion. You should be able to power hose any concrete surface after 7 days even as the concrete should have cured sufficiently and be strong enough. Dont let him away - thats crap he told her


I think he will try to fob her off again with some other story if she rings him. Change of approach i reckon.


Let me know how you get on

Rang him today, he went on about passing the blame to the concrete company nd it couldn't possibly be his fault. Eventually he said he would call out tomorrow afternoon to discuss it with me, we will see if he calls out, if he doesn't I will be knocking on his door.

nophd08

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Rang him today, he went on about passing the blame to the concrete company nd it couldn't possibly be his fault. Eventually he said he would call out tomorrow afternoon to discuss it with me, we will see if he calls out, if he doesn't I will be knocking on his door.

If the concrete came readymixed in a truck then its the ready mix crowd that the builder needs to chase. You need to DEMAND he sorts it out and get talking to the concrete company that supplied it. If he mixed it himself on site then the blame lays totally with him. Take a few photos of it and get ball rolling in case you need to get a solicitor on to it.

Trhiggy83

nophd08 wrote: »

If the concrete came readymixed in a truck then its the ready mix crowd that the builder needs to chase. You need to DEMAND he sorts it out and get talking to the concrete company that supplied it. If he mixed it himself on site then the blame lays totally with him. Take a few photos of it and get ball rolling in case you need to get a solicitor on to it.

To be honest it very unlikey that the concrete company are at fault. They should have records of what batch was sent out to your contractor but i dont think you need to get into that for now.

Either way its not your fault and it should be remedied by your contractor because you employed him. Lets him sort it out with the concrete suppliers if he needs to.

If he wants to blame the concrete supplier then thats fine but its still his reponsibility as he ordered the concrete from them not you.

Either way its his fault, just demand its sorted and dont entertain the concrete supplier story- let him deal with that.

Trhiggy83

nophd08 wrote: »

If the concrete came readymixed in a truck then its the ready mix crowd that the builder needs to chase. You need to DEMAND he sorts it out and get talking to the concrete company that supplied it. If he mixed it himself on site then the blame lays totally with him. Take a few photos of it and get ball rolling in case you need to get a solicitor on to it.

Ya all good advice

Calibos

I've a related question. The ESB replaced a pole outside our business premises and contractors dug up and replaced the section of the path where the old pole came out and the new one went in. By section, I mean they dug out the entire concrete path about 6ft either side of the pole and re-did it. Formed the kerb, tarmacced the road where it had also been dug up and dressed the concrete. You know, smooth boundary strips along edge and joints with a fine striping etched in the main walking areas for grip.

ANyway, Thye laid it just before the november freeze. After the Thaw early december and again after Stephens day, I am finding concrete dust walked all over the shop. After investigating I realised that the top surface of the path had turned to dust, well actually wet concrete muck that drys to grey concrete coloured dust. I took the yard brush out and swept off this concrete 'muck'. About 15 kilogammes of the stuff! The surface is now no longer like it was when it was done or like the untouched sections of path but is heavily dimpled and rough textured with pebbles visible embedded in the path for want of a better description. This section always looks damp btw even when the rest of the path is one dry.

Could this simply be unfortunate timing that the freeze happened before the path had cured and all the moisture therein froze and blew the suface layer turning it to scree (if my geology terminolgy from geography class is correct)

Trhiggy83

Calibos wrote: »

I've a related question. The ESB replaced a pole outside our business premises and contractors dug up and replaced the section of the path where the old pole came out and the new one went in. By section, I mean they dug out the entire concrete path about 6ft either side of the pole and re-did it. Formed the kerb, tarmacced the road where it had also been dug up and dressed the concrete. You know, smooth boundary strips along edge and joints with a fine striping etched in the main walking areas for grip.

ANyway, Thye laid it just before the november freeze. After the Thaw early december and again after Stephens day, I am finding concrete dust walked all over the shop. After investigating I realised that the top surface of the path had turned to dust, well actually wet concrete muck that drys to grey concrete coloured dust. I took the yard brush out and swept off this concrete 'muck'. About 15 kilogammes of the stuff! The surface is now no longer like it was when it was done or like the untouched sections of path but is heavily dimpled and rough textured with pebbles visible embedded in the path for want of a better description. This section always looks damp btw even when the rest of the path is one dry.

Could this simply be unfortunate timing that the freeze happened before the path had cured and all the moisture therein froze and blew the suface layer turning it to scree (if my geology terminolgy from geography class is correct)

Ya sounds similar to above, you are not too far wrong in what you are saying. The concrete wont gain sufficient strength if the weather is freezing and the water in the mix will expand when frozen causing micro cracking that you cant see. then when its walked on it will just come up in bits and pieces. You see it all the time that contractors dont let concrete cure properly, then they have to go back and redo the job unfortunately.

Max Moment

Trhiggy83 wrote: »

To be honest it very unlikey that the concrete company are at fault. They should have records of what batch was sent out to your contractor but i dont think you need to get into that for now.

Either way its not your fault and it should be remedied by your contractor because you employed him. Lets him sort it out with the concrete suppliers if he needs to.

If he wants to blame the concrete supplier then thats fine but its still his reponsibility as he ordered the concrete from them not you.

Either way its his fault, just demand its sorted and dont entertain the concrete supplier story- let him deal with that.

Completely agree with this. You paid the guy who laid the Concrete not the ready-mix plant. He is liable.

I'd say what could have happened was the builder bought a Lean-mix Concrete (very low strength concrete) as it was cheapest. Then when it came to site, the guys added loads of water to it to make it flow easier and easier for them to lay. This would have reduced the Concrete's strength even further thus making it more prone to frost and less durable at the surface.

The thin skin (or 'fat' as it is known) i.e the top few mm of your driveway is made up of up of a cement grout as the aggregate in the concrete will move to bottom when the concrete is compacted. This is what you are seeing breaking up as the cement would have been 'diluted' when the additional water was added and using the weaker concrete. And with the frost and then also driving on it, this could have caused it to break up.

I'm afraid the only way is to start again.

Dupont

it is the concrete suplier faults if it was a bad batch of concrete. it is the builders fault if it was laid on a day with frost that night. we put down concrete in december and the frost that night got it and destroyed the skin of it,also you shouldnt power wash concrete because you will remove the skin.

Trhiggy83

Dupont wrote: »

it is the concrete suplier faults if it was a bad batch of concrete. it is the builders fault if it was laid on a day with frost that night. we put down concrete in december and the frost that night got it and destroyed the skin of it,also you shouldnt power wash concrete because you will remove the skin.

Contractor should take the hit either way, he employed the concrete supplier

dan_d

If you can get the docket for the delivery of concrete, ring the plant and speak to them. They will be able to tell you what was in the batch - you can ask them about what you're seeing and what might have caused it.They can give you whatever technical information you might require - it's unlikely the contractor will/can. Normally concrete plants have no problem dealing with technical queries.

It may be a case that the concrete is fine, but the contractor may have added water when the truck came on site to make it easier to spread if the mix was stiff or had gone off slightly.In that case, the contractor is at fault (and unfortunately, the truck driver).

Either that, or the frost got into it and it didn't cure properly.In which case I'm not sure who takes the responsibility, but you'll probably have to consider relaying it either way.

Dupont

the concrete should come to site with the correct slump and should be workable but unfourtunely this rarely happens so you have to add water. a concrete supplier we use has written on his dockets that states they take no responibility of concrete poured in less than +5 C and only so much water is allowed