Do you Flash Your Headlights to Warn other motorists of Speed traps & Checkpoints?

finnegan2010

Do many of you flash other drivers to warn them of a speed trap or a garda checkpoint?
This chap in england thought he was doing his civic duty

A driver has been convicted of a criminal offence for flashing his headlights at oncoming motorists to warn them of a police speed trap ahead.
Michael Thompson, 64, believed he was doing his ‘civic duty’ by alerting drivers on the opposite side of a dual carriageway.
When stopped by a police officer Thompson disagreed with the suggestion that he was ‘perverting the course of justice’ and was then allegedly told: ’I was going to let you off with a caution - but I’m not now.’


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1343959/Driver-flashed-headlights-warn-fellow-motorists-speed-trap-hauled-court-fined-obstructing-police.html#ixzz1A5BUGuXI


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1343959/Driver-flashed-headlights-warn-fellow-motorists-speed-trap-hauled-court-fined-obstructing-police.html

JohnnyBananas

No, under no circumstances do I as I would only be contributing to making the roads more dangerous.

Chris_5339762

No, let the idiots get caught.

L1011

People get convicted for that here too, probably 2 or 3 cases a year in the local rag.

Mrs OBumble

It's quite entertaining to flash someone who is speeding even though there's not a speed trap for miles, and then sit back and giggle about how cautiously they'll likely drive for the next however-long.

Carawaystick

Why are you commenting about a person who broke the law in a foreign country on boards.ie?

-Chris-

The same basic law applies here afaik, so whether people break that law here is probably a fair question.

The fact that an article in a foreign paper prompted the question is neither here nor there imho.

The Muppet

Yeah I always do it just like i do if theres any hazard on the road, walkers cyclist, stray animals etc.

finnegan2010

Carawaystick wrote: »

Why are you commenting about a person who broke the law in a foreign country on boards.ie?

I didnt realise commenting about someone who broke the law outside Ireland on boards.IE was out of order!

Would that include Saddam Hussein etc or just road traffic violations?

Ooops I forgot the golden rule

DONT FEED THE TROLL !!!!!!!!!!!

-Chris-

finnegan2010 wrote: »

I didnt realise commenting about someone who broke the law outside Ireland on boards.IE was out of order!

It's not.

@everyone - move on please.

n97 mini

Flashing will make people slow down. Bit like highly visible speed cameras.

Catching people speeding doesn't make the roads safer. Getting people to slow down does.

Trhiggy83

I would never flash someone speeding if there was a speed camera ahead but how can anyone prove without reasable doubt in court that he wasnt flashing for something else. As far as i know there is no law against flashing your lights randomly at passing cars. How can you prove what the flash meant ??? Anyone have an answer ?

runway16

Yes, I often do when it is obvious that the speed trap in question is nothing more than revenue raising or a day out in the sun for the guards.

If it is a speed trap in a genuinly risky location, then no, I wouldnt.

That said, you achieve safety by slowing people down in the first place, not by catching them. Thats what we dont seem to realise here in Ireland...

TheNog

runway16 wrote: »

That said, you achieve safety by slowing people down in the first place, not by catching them. Thats what we dont seem to realise here in Ireland...

How would you propose doing that?

jaybee747

Nope, would never flash anyone to warn of a speed camera.

Anyone that does could be contributing to a fatality when said flashed car speeds back up after passing the camera, Bad practice to be honest.

YCHGTBOY

Flashing your high beams into a drivers eyes, whether from front or rear, is against the law

Read the rules of the road!!!

Cookie_Monster

I'd flash to warn people of a hazard, if that includes a speed camera van badly parked or checkpoint just after a bend so be it.

Terrontress

I remember on time coming out of Terenure and there was a speed check at Bushy Park, targetting motorists coming from Templeogue. I was getting ready to flash an oncoming car when I saw that further along the road they had set up a speed check for people coming in my direction! If I had flashed I'd undoubtedly have been scooped for it!

The relevant authorities tell us that it is not their intention to catch people but to have them slow down. I'll always flash to help a fellow motorist wherever possible.

bobsoice23

When i first saw this i was like wtf why are they flashing us..mommy had to explain it to me:DLove when I see it happening though..feels like we're all the same boat.Would never do it for someone who was speeding though..let the fker get caught.

mconigol

I'm not really sure how it could be proven that his intention was to warn oncoming vehicles. Whatever happened innocent until PROVEN guilty?

It's all well and good to say it's against the law to flash your headlights in the eyes of an oncoming driver. If that's the case then we're probably all guilty of that. I know I've done it plenty of times by mistake or being too quick off my dims.

If somebody were flashing about a horse or a drunk or a car accident in middle of the road around the corner would that also be against the law? I'd assume it would have to be?!

bmaxi

mconigol wrote: »

I'm not really sure how it could be proven that his intention was to warn oncoming vehicles. Whatever happened innocent until PROVEN guilty?

It's all well and good to say it's against the law to flash your headlights in the eyes of an oncoming driver. If that's the case then we're probably all guilty of that. I know I've done it plenty of times by mistake or being too quick off my dims.

If somebody were flashing about a horse or a drunk or a car accident in middle of the road around the corner would that also be against the law? I'd assume it would have to be?!

If you go to court, the Garda says it was his/her opinion that you were flashing to warn of the speed trap. The judge agrees. Verdict; Guilty.

mconigol

bmaxi wrote: »

If you go to court, the Garda says it was his/her opinion that you were flashing to warn of the speed trap. The judge agrees. Verdict; Guilty.

I'm always very skeptical when I hear about things like this. I'd have doubts over how constitutional this is if it were to be really challenged. Unfortunately people don't want to take on something like that due to the costs etc...I suppose.

If you were brought to court on a murder charge and the Garda says it was his/her opinion that you were guilty and the judge agrees do you think a guilty verdict should be automatically imposed then regardless? Where's the proof? The burden in on the state to supply hard fact based evidence as to a persons guilt of an accused crime. Murder may be a vastly different charge but the same principles apply.

It just annoys me sometimes that this burden of proof seems to be quietly brushed to the side. Either we have a system where proof of someones guilt is required or we don't.

BrianD

I recall reading of a similar case here where the person was brought to court. Can't recall the outcome.

I used to flash for speedtraps (not check points) years ago to fellow commercial drivers. Don't anymore. Everyone knows that the law is out there and more fool them if they exceed the limits.

bmaxi

mconigol wrote: »

I'm always very skeptical when I hear about things like this. I'd have doubts over how constitutional this is if it were to be really challenged. Unfortunately people don't want to take on something like that due to the costs etc...I suppose.

If you were brought to court on a murder charge and the Garda says it was his/her opinion that you were guilty and the judge agrees do you think a guilty verdict should be automatically imposed then regardless? Where's the proof? The burden in on the state to supply hard fact based evidence as to a persons guilt of an accused crime. Murder may be a vastly different charge but the same principles apply.

It just annoys me sometimes that this burden of proof seems to be quietly brushed to the side. Either we have a system where proof of someones guilt is required or we don't.

Murder is an indictable offence and you would be tried by a jury. Traffic offences are considered misdemeanours and are dealt with by a judge.
In a case such as this, there is no evidence to produce so it would be your word against the Garda's and almost invariably the Garda's word will be taken.
You would afaik, have the right to appeal. :rolleyes:

foggy_lad

Anyone flashing drivers to warn them of checkpoints etc should be banned from driving for 6months at least and then made rest their test!

Cookie_Monster

foggy_lad wrote: »

Anyone flashing drivers to warn them of checkpoints etc should be banned from driving for 6months at least and then made rest their test!

why?
just looking for a reason to go with the statement... do you think its immoral / dangerous / etc

TheNog

Terrontress wrote: »

The relevant authorities tell us that it is not their intention to catch people but to have them slow down. I'll always flash to help a fellow motorist wherever possible.

Do you think that all fellow motorists are honest hardworking people like yourself?

Ever stop to think that some fellow motorists could be heavily involved in thefts, robberies, drugs, pedophilia, rapists etc etc.

Ever think that those involved in thefts, robberies, drugs, pedophilia, rapists etc etc are flashed and turn away from Gardai so as not to bring attention on themselves?

I probably sound patronising but its the truth. There is little point in people giving out about crimes being committed when the criminals are getting little helping hands from those who do not think about the consequences of their actions.

drBill

YCHGTBOY wrote: »

Flashing your high beams into a drivers eyes, whether from front or rear, is against the law

Read the rules of the road!!!

Where in the rules of the road does it state that flashing your high beams is against the law?

mconigol

TheNog wrote: »

Do you think that all fellow motorists are honest hardworking people like yourself?

Ever stop to think that some fellow motorists could be heavily involved in thefts, robberies, drugs, pedophilia, rapists etc etc.

Ever think that those involved in thefts, robberies, drugs, pedophilia, rapists etc etc are flashed and turn away from Gardai so as not to bring attention on themselves?

I probably sound patronising but its the truth. There is little point in people giving out about crimes being committed when the criminals are getting little helping hands from those who do not think about the consequences of their actions.

Over reaction much??

Where do you be going?! I'm not sure if many guards can pick out all the thieves, drug users, paedophiles (??!) and rapists with their radar guns!

People still have the right to travel freely about their business and communicate with their fellow road users. I doubt there's too many people around who haven't gotten (or made)) a phone call at one time or another to warm that the guards are out and to drive carefully.

mconigol

bmaxi wrote: »

Murder is an indictable offence and you would be tried by a jury. Traffic offences are considered misdemeanours and are dealt with by a judge.
In a case such as this, there is no evidence to produce so it would be your word against the Garda's and almost invariably the Garda's word will be taken.
You would afaik, have the right to appeal. :rolleyes:

Still my opinion would be that the difference in the offences should be reflected in the sentencing. While it pains me to say it sometimes, everyone should have a presumption of innocence, otherwise we're on a slippery slope.

I'll put my argument another way since in fairness murder isn't comparable.

Imagine you passed a garda check point, then drove around the corner and came across an animal in the middle of the road, a deer or something that could be gone in a few seconds. It's still there as you go round the next corner. Within a few minutes you meet another driver and flash your lights.

The other driver turns out to be another policeman and you get done for obstruction of justice based on the word of the guard when in fact you are totally innocent. Now you could say that trying to explain what happened would resolve the situation 9 times out of ten but then that puts you in the position of having to prove your innocence when in fact it should be the other way around.

TheNog

mconigol wrote: »

Over reaction much??

No hardly ever..... oh wait there was this one time..... nah dont over react much at all

Where do you be going?!

Out in a patrol car

I'm not sure if many guards can pick out all the thieves, drug users, paedophiles (??!) and rapists with their radar guns!

Not with radar guns, we use our eyes and experience to pick out quite a few of them as they drive past

Terrontress

TheNog wrote: »

Do you think that all fellow motorists are honest hardworking people like yourself?

Ever stop to think that some fellow motorists could be heavily involved in thefts, robberies, drugs, pedophilia, rapists etc etc.

Ever think that those involved in thefts, robberies, drugs, pedophilia, rapists etc etc are flashed and turn away from Gardai so as not to bring attention on themselves?

I probably sound patronising but its the truth. There is little point in people giving out about crimes being committed when the criminals are getting little helping hands from those who do not think about the consequences of their actions.

Thefts, drugs, paedophiles, rapists would probably be better detected than by sitting at the side of the road in the hope of one coming past and doing over the speed limit when doing so. What if the wicked paedophile is doing 49 km/h? And even then, if he is over the limit all he can hope for is a fine through the post, processed by a Garda reviewing the video footage.

It's completely reactive detection. You can drive from the border to Dublin and not see a single marked Garda car travelling in either direction yet see some of the most riduculous driving known to mankind. But as long as they don't exceed the speed limit in a single location is a good use of one or two Garda's day.

foggy_lad

How about it being illegal and perverting the course of justice.flashing your lights to warn others is s typically Irish paramilitary scumbag type action much like some common criminals refusal to pay road tax etc

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

why?
just looking for a reason to go with the statement... do you think its immoral / dangerous / etc

Cookie_Monster

foggy_lad wrote: »

How about it being illegal and perverting the course of justice.flashing your lights to warn others is s typically Irish paramilitary scumbag type action much like some common criminals refusal to pay road tax etc

fair enough, but what if it a genuine reason like warning people there are sheep all over the road around the next bend for example?

foggy_lad

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

fair enough, but what if it a genuine reason like warning people there are sheep all over the road around the next bend for example?

in such a situation the correct procedure would be to stop your vehicle facing oncoming traffic with the hazard warning lights on and contact the emergency services and wait till they arrive. Also traffic on roads which would regularly have sheep wandering on them should be travelling at speeds which allow the driver to stop in good time for sheep cows tractors bakers etc warning poor/bad drivers is not the answer!

There is also hand signals to warn drivers to slow down, waving an outstretched arm up and down with the hand horizontal palm facing down is the correct signal to slow down iirc

highlydebased

foggy_lad wrote: »

in such a situation the correct procedure would be to stop your vehicle facing oncoming traffic with the hazard warning lights on and contact the emergency services and wait till they arrive. Also traffic on roads which would regularly have sheep wandering on them should be travelling at speeds which allow the driver to stop in good time for sheep cows tractors bakers etc warning poor/bad drivers is not the answer!

There is also hand signals to warn drivers to slow down, waving an outstretched arm up and down with the hand horizontal palm facing down is the correct signal to slow down iirc

If I saw someone stopped facing me on the road I'd assume they are either batty, disorientated or broken down. Calling the emergency services to move a few sheep is a waste of their time.

parsi

foggy_lad wrote: »

How about it being illegal and perverting the course of justice.flashing your lights to warn others is s typically Irish paramilitary scumbag type action much like some common criminals refusal to pay road tax etc

Yeah right.

The net effect is the oncoming driver will slow down. That's the function of the speed cameras or so we are told.

n97 mini

foggy_lad wrote: »

How about it being illegal and perverting the course of justice.

Huh? There has to have been a crime committed.

foggy_lad wrote:

in such a situation the correct procedure would be to stop your vehicle facing oncoming traffic with the hazard warning lights on

Huh? And cause an accident?!

Boards.ie is infamous for bad advice and now I can see why!

jack presley

foggy_lad wrote: »

There is also hand signals to warn drivers to slow down, waving an outstretched arm up and down with the hand horizontal palm facing down is the correct signal to slow down iirc

...which will work like a charm on a dark night on a winding rural road. Good luck with that!

drBill

foggy_lad wrote: »

in such a situation the correct procedure would be to stop your vehicle facing oncoming traffic with the hazard warning lights on and contact the emergency services and wait till they arrive. Also traffic on roads which would regularly have sheep wandering on them should be travelling at speeds which allow the driver to stop in good time for sheep cows tractors bakers etc warning poor/bad drivers is not the answer!

There is also hand signals to warn drivers to slow down, waving an outstretched arm up and down with the hand horizontal palm facing down is the correct signal to slow down iirc

Seriously?? Drivers parking with their hazard lights on? Calling the emergency services and waiting for them to arrive? Other traffic travelling at safe speeds to allow for the conditions?

In such an ideal world this would surely all be unnecessary, as the sheep would all be wearing high-vis jackets, would line up in an orderly and safe fashion along the roadside and would no doubt have placed warning signs in each direction to alert oncoming traffic!

Jennieflower

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

No, let the idiots get caught.

well, I do. But if its obvious that they are speeding then don't.
Likewise if I see lil boy racers with their clapped out Honda Civic's then nahhh, but in general i agree.... let the idiots get caught.

Fingalgal

You might not like flash somebody else in warning but it sure is nice when someone gives you the heads up when you tipping a bit over the speed limit.

Jennieflower

Fingalgal wrote: »

You might not like flash somebody else in warning but it sure is nice when someone gives you the heads up when you tipping a bit over the speed limit.

Ya Im totaly with you on this one, as a family of truck drivers, we don't speed per say, as we all have limiters on the trucks, but sometime the ODD time we might go a little over, and its that lil bit over that makes could break us. So ya, nothing wrong with giving the heads up to the usual, run of the mill ppl on the road. But obviously not the obvious speeders....

Tragedy

TheNog wrote: »

Do you think that all fellow motorists are honest hardworking people like yourself?

Ever stop to think that some fellow motorists could be heavily involved in thefts, robberies, drugs, pedophilia, rapists etc etc.

Ever think that those involved in thefts, robberies, drugs, pedophilia, rapists etc etc are flashed and turn away from Gardai so as not to bring attention on themselves?

I probably sound patronising but its the truth. There is little point in people giving out about crimes being committed when the criminals are getting little helping hands from those who do not think about the consequences of their actions.

Absolutely bonkers. A lone guard hiding behind a bus shelter(it does happen) or in a front garden(i saw it two months ago) is actually looking for thieves, robbers, drug dealers, paedophiles and rapists? What's he going to do if he finds one, run out from the garden or bus shelter to his car parked 30 seconds away and give chase on his own as the car dissappears into the horizon?

What about the tripod checkpoints on top of motorway bridges, do they vault the side of the bridge, land on the roof of the thieving paedophile rapists vehicle and stop them hollywood style?

And I forgot, GATSO vans actually give chase to cars.

That's the most disingenuous post I've read in a long time. The fact that your word counts as being something special in court as compared to a citizens should be deeply worrying and troubling to people when you come out with such a blatantly blinkered, misguided and warped post like above ^^ which you obviously honestly do believe to be reality.
Deeply worrying.

I'm going to have trouble sleeping tonight worrying of all the rapes I helped commit by warning road users of GATSO's on motorways.

FWIW, I flash for speedchecks on motorways/high quality N roads. I never flash for checkpoints checking alcohol, tax, insurance, registration etc.
FWIW2, I've passed at least 40 speedchecks(whether radar, gatso or tripod) in the last 3 years and never once been pulled over or received penalty points, and it's not because people warn me of them.

mconigol

TheNog wrote: »

No hardly ever..... oh wait there was this one time..... nah dont over react much at all



Out in a patrol car



Not with radar guns, we use our eyes and experience to pick out quite a few of them as they drive past

Yeah you still didn't answer my question. Sarcastic comments don't really make your argument any more convincing.

I can understand your point of view from being a guard but I think guards can take discussions like this a bit personally and as an attack on them. As a guard I assume you don't bend the rules in the course of your duties in order to nab someone who deserves it?!

TheNog

Terrontress wrote: »

Thefts, drugs, paedophiles, rapists would probably be better detected than by sitting at the side of the road in the hope of one coming past and doing over the speed limit when doing so. What if the wicked paedophile is doing 49 km/h? And even then, if he is over the limit all he can hope for is a fine through the post, processed by a Garda reviewing the video footage.

It's completely reactive detection. You can drive from the border to Dublin and not see a single marked Garda car travelling in either direction yet see some of the most riduculous driving known to mankind. But as long as they don't exceed the speed limit in a single location is a good use of one or two Garda's day.

When a Garda doing a speed check other motorists usually see it the patrol car, slow down and are quite visible to the guard as they pass. Believe me we have done this and stopped quite a number of people to be checked out with positive results. Some of those we would know as they would be local thugs, others might not be known to me personally but would be into serious crime.

Tragedy wrote: »

Absolutely bonkers. A lone guard hiding behind a bus shelter(it does happen) or in a front garden(i saw it two months ago) is actually looking for thieves, robbers, drug dealers, paedophiles and rapists? What's he going to do if he finds one, run out from the garden or bus shelter to his car parked 30 seconds away and give chase on his own as the car dissappears into the horizon?

What about the tripod checkpoints on top of motorway bridges, do they vault the side of the bridge, land on the roof of the thieving paedophile rapists vehicle and stop them hollywood style?

And I forgot, GATSO vans actually give chase to cars.

That's the most disingenuous post I've read in a long time. The fact that your word counts as being something special in court as compared to a citizens should be deeply worrying and troubling to people when you come out with such a blatantly blinkered, misguided and warped post like above ^^ which you obviously honestly do believe to be reality.
Deeply worrying.

I'm going to have trouble sleeping tonight worrying of all the rapes I helped commit by warning road users of GATSO's on motorways.

FWIW, I flash for speedchecks on motorways/high quality N roads. I never flash for checkpoints checking alcohol, tax, insurance, registration etc.
FWIW2, I've passed at least 40 speedchecks(whether radar, gatso or tripod) in the last 3 years and never once been pulled over or received penalty points, and it's not because people warn me of them.

If we can keep the discussion within reason then we can assume the fella hiding in a garden with the patrol car 30 secs from he is then we can safely assume he is after speeders only.

The tripods are used by Traffic Corp only and though they do stop checks on known criminals they do also enforce speed limits.

Gatso vans are the same as above though just very recently a Gatso operator was moving between locations and copped a suspicious car with trailer and a mini digger. Followed it until a marked car caught up and it turned out the had just been digger was stolen.

You can think all you want about my post going off on a tangent but the fact of the matter is I know a lot more about policing than you will ever do. If you truely want to know what policing is like rather than throw up an armchair comentary maybe you should join the reserves and see for yourself. You can continue to be naive enough to think that all is rosy around you or you can come live in the real world.

CIE

mconigol wrote: »

I'm not really sure how it could be proven that his intention was to warn oncoming vehicles. Whatever happened innocent until PROVEN guilty?

Doesn't exist in the EU anymore, along with habeas corpus. Adversarial system is being replaced gradually with inqusitorial, but that's fodder for a different forum.

For my part, the only time I flash my high beams at oncoming drivers is at those that have not switched their high beams off and are blinding me.

TheNog

mconigol wrote: »

Yeah you still didn't answer my question. Sarcastic comments don't really make your argument any more convincing.

I can understand your point of view from being a guard but I think guards can take discussions like this a bit personally and as an attack on them.

What question?

I dont take it personally tbh just trying to make posters see what their actions can do to other people. Flashing oncoming traffic we believe causes us a serious hindarance to doing our jobs properly which is essentially protecting people and property. Some people think that foiling us in every or any way they can is making guards look like the victims when actually it is the people who own the houses or businesses that are being burgled are the real victims.

mconigol wrote: »

As a guard I assume you don't bend the rules in the course of your duties in order to nab someone who deserves it?!

You assume correctly and thankfully Im not going to take offence to this comment. I have a mortgage and a young family so I refuse to put any of that in jeopardy just to get some low life thug. That would be just downright petty and stupid.

Terrontress

If we flash our lights, the paedophile will slow down, giving the Garda a better chance to recognise him from his mind's eye and therefore justify the Garda sitting at the side of the road instead of just going round to the paedophile's house to talk to him.

This seems like a justification to flash the lights.

Flash the lights and prevent paedophilia!

Bards

in terms of burden of proof. I always though in Civil Cases the burden of proof was with the defendendant. he had to prove himself innocent, whereas in a Criminal Case the burden of proof was with the state.

Now the question arises where a person who is though to be warning other motorists by "Flashing Headlights" will they be tried in a criminal court (Sate V Joe Bloggs) or Civil court.

from my reading it has to be criminal as it is the State who is brinning a prosecution not a third party/business. Therefore the bruden of proof must be with the state beyond resonable doubt and they cannot just take a Guards word for it.

bmaxi

mconigol wrote: »

Still my opinion would be that the difference in the offences should be reflected in the sentencing. While it pains me to say it sometimes, everyone should have a presumption of innocence, otherwise we're on a slippery slope.

I'll put my argument another way since in fairness murder isn't comparable.

Imagine you passed a garda check point, then drove around the corner and came across an animal in the middle of the road, a deer or something that could be gone in a few seconds. It's still there as you go round the next corner. Within a few minutes you meet another driver and flash your lights.

The other driver turns out to be another policeman and you get done for obstruction of justice based on the word of the guard when in fact you are totally innocent. Now you could say that trying to explain what happened would resolve the situation 9 times out of ten but then that puts you in the position of having to prove your innocence when in fact it should be the other way around.

Again, as far as I know the "reasonable doubt" provision is only for indictable offences, the verdict in motoring offences is on the balance of probabilities. You are entitled to produce whatever evidence you have to prove your innocence but in the absence of a sworn affidavit from the deer, I don't rate your chances.
I wouldn't lose any sleep over it though, the chances of such a scenario arising are pretty small.