Politcans attending constitutent's removal/funeral

Di0genes

I attended a removal recently. In attendance at the removal were both sitting TDs for the area, including a certain moustachio'd former Minister.

I was left shocked at this brazen bit of political showmanship in the midst of a family's grief.

Is this appropriate, or acceptable behaviour? Or am I being prudish and modest at the idea of a man wandering into the midst of a families private grief to press the flesh.

Thoughts?

the groutch

just more parish pump politics, something that needs to be eradicated from this country a.s.a.p.

lugha

Di0genes wrote: »

I attended a removal recently. In attendance at the removal were both sitting TDs for the area, including a certain moustachio'd former Minister.

Both? We have a two-seat constituency somewhere?

Di0genes wrote: »

I was left shocked at this brazen bit of political showmanship in the midst of a family's grief.
Is this appropriate, or acceptable behaviour? Or am I being prudish and modest at the idea of a man wandering into the midst of a families private grief to press the flesh.

Thoughts?

Where I come from you would struggle to attend a funeral and NOT find at least one TD in attendance.

Di0genes

I found it incredibly distasteful in the midst of personal shock and grief. His presence was a "whirlwind" Though I am told he spoke to many of those outside, waiting to join the procession to the church.

Also considering the death happened late on the 29th, the removal announced the 30th, and the removal happened on the 31st, one must presume he scours the local death listing, just to check, where and when these occur and attendees them as a matter of course, a shocking waste of time, and a very unpleasant predatory aspect to the whole situation.

None of this occured to me as this occured, it was only after I inquired at the reception that his presence at these events is usually expected like a particularly odious aos sí.

Di0genes

lugha wrote: »

Both? We have a two-seat constituency somewhere?

My apologises two out of the three TDs in the constituency were there. Considering that I've only changed from the funeral clothes earlier today, I'm sure you can forgive the lapse.

Where I come from you would struggle to attend a funeral and NOT find at least one TD in attendance.

The obvious question is "why". There are tens of thousands of living constituents, that would be better served by their TD actually attending to matters of state, and their representations rather than making superficial gestures of sympathy to someone they may not have personally known.

As a young man, it was remarked as exciting when the then taoiseach attended mass in our parish. As if it was remarkable that the Catholic leader of a Catholic nation should be attending mass on a Sunday. Though in hindsight considering the outgoing TD's political legacy, perhaps I confused excitement with astonishment that he could be touched by holy water without bursting into flames.

expectationlost

how do you know they didn't know the deceased?

Di0genes

expectationlost wrote: »

how do you know they didn't know the deceased?

I know the deceased and the family very well as y'know I'm married to the deceased niece, and can assure you the family has no contact with this particular FF TD.

Mr. Loverman

I personally think it is ok.

A TD gave a little speech at my grannies funeral and thought it added something to the day. They are, after all, sort of the "chiefs" of the town.

mikemac

That's just one way you get to the highest first preference count in the country

Eager_Beaver

Exactly the question i was going to ask, not unusual at all to see TD's. And if was a removal, it was probably at night, when you hardly expect a TD to be sitting in an office etc?

pigeonbutler

Most TD's (or councillors for that matter) would tell you that a failure by them to appear at funerals would result in very very short political careers.

Of course their time could be better spent, but they have to do what's necessary to get elected. An electorate that votes on such a basis is the bigger problem. As long as you have multi-seat constituencies it's going to happen.

It's one of the things outsiders that entered politics like Jim Glennon often remark on as an unfortunate reality of Irish politics.

Di0genes

Fighting Irish wrote: »

:rolleyes:

I'm sorry is there something about the turn of phrase that displeases you? And you were able to enunciate this displeasure in such a loquacious, and erudite manner, displaying the veritable wit and wisdom of the improbable love child betwixt Oscar Wilder and Dorothy Parker with your well thought out, and delightful simile. Truly you have illuminated this forum with your charm and perspicacity.

Alternatively, you could accept the fact that I've not really slept in the past 48 hours and forgive my lapse into cliché, and drop the sarcastic simile as a way of complaining.

mikemac

Di0genes wrote: »

I'm sorry is there something about the turn of phrase that displeases you?

Relax, there wasn't anything bad behind it
It's because you posted you were shocked. Have you realy never attended a funeral or removal and not seen a TD or councillor?

Like Mr. Loverman, a local TD gave a speech at my granny's funeral. It was appreciated.

This has gone on forever, maybe the beginning of politics. And will continue to go on.
In a three seater if two TD's show up and one doesn't bother , the voters notice.

Di0genes

feelingstressed wrote: »

Relax, there wasn't anything bad behind it
It's because you posted you were shocked. Have you realy never attended a funeral or removal and not seen a TD or councillor?

Last three I was at I genuinely would not have noticed.

Like Mr. Loverman, a local TD gave a speech at my granny's funeral. It was appreciated.

I'll presume your TD at least knew your granny.

In a three seater if two TD's show up and one doesn't bother , the voters notice.

To be honest several people remarked that the no show would be the one who would get their vote.

irishh_bob

Di0genes wrote: »

I found it incredibly distasteful in the midst of personal shock and grief. His presence was a "whirlwind" Though I am told he spoke to many of those outside, waiting to join the procession to the church.

Also considering the death happened late on the 29th, the removal announced the 30th, and the removal happened on the 31st, one must presume he scours the local death listing, just to check, where and when these occur and attendees them as a matter of course, a shocking waste of time, and a very unpleasant predatory aspect to the whole situation.

None of this occured to me as this occured, it was only after I inquired at the reception that his presence at these events is usually expected like a particularly odious aos sí.

chances are the family of the desceased would be displeased had at least one of the TD,s not shown thier face

Di0genes

irishh_bob wrote: »

chances are the family of the desceased would be displeased had at least one of the TD,s not shown thier face

I'm sorry I simply just don't understand this. Why? What possible purpose does the TD serve, and why should people be angry if they do or don't turn up? Genuine question

I've been in the UK for most of the past decade, and am utterly baffled by this.

expectationlost

there a good thread on this on p.ie, which concluded that these TDs are part of a death cult http://www.politics.ie/current-affairs/124272-he-great-man-attending-funerals-4.html#post2474707

HavingCrack

I think this is more of a rural thing to be honest. I can safely say if any politicians turned up at any of my relatives funerals they'd be asked politely to leave unless they knew them personally. A certain Fianna Failer was asked less than politely to get out at the last one I was at actually...:pac:

later12

Di0genes wrote: »

Also considering the death happened late on the 29th, the removal announced the 30th, and the removal happened on the 31st, one must presume he scours the local death listing, just to check, where and when these occur and attendees them as a matter of course

Firstly yes it would be quite common for public representatives to attend removals and funerals. As another poster suggested, not doing so is political suicide in rural Ireland.

In many cases families tend to see it as a mark of honour when a Minister or a high profile public representative personally expresses their condolences, even if everyone knows that they do so on a regular basis and there was nothing really special about the deceased. Where I come from in rural Ireland there are three very active funeral going public representatives and if none of them showed up at your loved one's funeral it would be seen as a slight on the family or would appear to detract from the family's local importance. Such families often have long memories and I am familiar with a case where the voter took it into account on polling day. So in the run up to an election you can imagine how it is significant.

I couldn't help but notice you said that you have spent time in the UK. Ib the UK, funerals tend to be much more private events overall and the attendance of an MP would be abnormal for various reasons, not least of them geographic.
In Ireland, and particularly in rural Ireland, funerals are still commonly community events. My father probably attends at least one funeral per week and he is nether Catholic nor a public representative, nor are his friends particularly disaster-prone.

Eliot Rosewater

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

A TD gave a little speech at my grannies funeral and thought it added something to the day. They are, after all, sort of the "chiefs" of the town.

That's a problem with Irish society, whereby Irish people are obsessed with government. There is no reason whatsoever why one of your local legislators should be considered "chief" of anything.

It's a pattern in the Irish psyche. For example, the Irish Examiner had a front page story about the death of an old hurling legend. Instead of heading it "Hurling legend dies" they headed it "Taoiseach leads tributes to ‘The Legend’ Doyle". Presumably if some part of the government wasn't involved people wouldn't be interested.

HavingCrack wrote: »

I think this is more of a rural thing to be honest. I can safely say if any politicians turned up at any of my relatives funerals they'd be asked politely to leave unless they knew them personally.

I would hope to do the same. A TD going to a funeral in search of political gain is basically an attempt at profiteering off of the person's death. I think it's very poor form personally.

mike65

If they turn up at my funeral I'll be waiting for them.


























BOO!

OhNoYouDidn't

Di0genes wrote: »

I'm sorry I simply just don't understand this. Why? What possible purpose does the TD serve, and why should people be angry if they do or don't turn up? Genuine question

I've been in the UK for most of the past decade, and am utterly baffled by this.

Because like it or not, especially in rural areas, its the norm for local reps to appear at a funeral. To not do so is a snub to the family and perceived as such. No TD's were at my grandfathers funeral in Meath about 10 years ago, and considering he was personally friendly with two or three of them and a lifelong friend of one of their fathers (his son took his seat), and very active in a number of civic associations around the town, it was considered appalling form.

Its one of those things TD's actually don't like doing unless the person was actually known to them, but no-one will be the first not to.

ninty9er

If you live in a 3 seat constituency then Willie O'Dea has nothing to gain from goin to the funeral as he won't be running in it. More than likely that the TDs knew the deceased person or know someone in the extended family. Some do go to funerals like professionals, but then again so do my grandparents.

Di0genes

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Because like it or not, especially in rural areas, its the norm for local reps to appear at a funeral.

Then we need to get out of this mentality pronto. That is not the responsibility or duty of a TD, in charge of representative of tens of thousands of people at a national level.

Never mind the idea of a minister of state doing this.

To not do so is a snub to the family and perceived as such. No TD's were at my grandfathers funeral in Meath about 10 years ago, and considering he was personally friendly with two or three of them and a lifelong friend of one of their fathers (his son took his seat), and very active in a number of civic associations around the town, it was considered appalling form.

If they're genuine friends of the deceased fine, but I have issues with the idea of a politician scanning the death notices and turning up a removals just for the sake of a public appearance.

Its one of those things TD's actually don't like doing unless the person was actually known to them, but no-one will be the first not to.

Speaking to a number of people about the event afterwards, apparently this particular former minister would regularly make a appearance at all removals of a evening in this particular city.

OhNoYouDidn't

Di0genes wrote: »

Then we need to get out of this mentality pronto. That is not the responsibility or duty of a TD, in charge of representative of tens of thousands of people at a national level.

Never mind the idea of a minister of state doing this.

They clearly disagree, hence they do it. I'm not arguing its ideal, but it is the system we have. If thats how they chose to spend their evenings, what can you do?

Di0genes wrote: »

If they're genuine friends of the deceased fine, but I have issues with the idea of a politician scanning the death notices and turning up a removals just for the sake of a public appearance.

So do I, but its seen as a snub not to be there, and that costs them votes. Its chicken and egg, do we grow up as an electorate first or do they take the plunge and risk their careers to make a stand?

Di0genes wrote: »

Speaking to a number of people about the event afterwards, apparently this particular former minister would regularly make a appearance at all removals of a evening in this particular city.

Again, he doesn't do this out of boredom. He does this because the electorate, especially in the sticks, will hammer them if they don't,

He has better things to be doing.

Di0genes

ninty9er wrote: »

If you live in a 3 seat constituency then Willie O'Dea has nothing to gain from goin to the funeral as he won't be running in it. More than likely that the TDs knew the deceased person or know someone in the extended family. Some do go to funerals like professionals, but then again so do my grandparents.

As mentioned I have lived in the UK for the majority of the last decade, and am not a limerick native, I was incredibly shocked to discover that limerick is a five seat consistency.

I know this will come as a shock to many of the more seasoned political pundits on this forum, and I am not political naive but the sheer number of TDs available to the Limerick people is something that I somehow just forgot, And now makes me understand how they're turning up at funerals to press the flesh.

Seloth

I thought it was quite odd as well for years but I can kind see why it is done after discussing it with my mother once.

She spoke about how the TD was voted in the area to represent said person,and it is a way of showing respect by attending their funeral.

Di0genes

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

They clearly disagree, hence they do it. I'm not arguing its ideal, but it is the system we have. If thats how they chose to spend their evenings, what can you do?

Which is a broken piece of logic.

So do I, but its seen as a snub not to be there, and that costs them votes. Its chicken and egg, do we grow up as an electorate first or do they take the plunge and risk their careers to make a stand?

Again this is a broken piece of logic, the electorate expect it, so we do, and if we don't do it, they'll expect it, and they won't vote for us.

How about a stand for national maturity. Find me the party that says "Your TD sympathises with your lose, but finds that he or she will better serve their constituencies by spending their time working for you"

Again, he doesn't do this out of boredom. He does this because the electorate, especially in the sticks, will hammer them if they don't,

He has better things to be doing.

What I'm hearing since I've come back is that candidates are building their bases by turning up at funerals, wheeling out cars to nurses homes to carry their base out to polling stations, and getting out shovels to help keep church porches free from snow during the holidays.

All nice politicking but how it helps serve their consistencies in any real sense simply boggles the bloody mind.

Di0genes

Seloth wrote: »

I thought it was quite odd as well for years but I can kind see why it is done after discussing it with my mother once.

She spoke about how the TD was voted in the area to represent said person,and it is a way of showing respect by attending their funeral.

But thats not their job.

*Pulls out hair and bangs head on keyboard*

Until we get out of this mentality we are truly fecked as a nation.

mikemac

Di0genes wrote: »

As mentioned I have lived in the UK for the majority of the last decade, and am not a limerick native, I was incredibly shocked to discover that limerick is a five seat consistency.

This is the second thing in this thread you've been shocked over. Yet I'm the one with stressed in my username
The constituencies are based on population and are redrawn from time to time.
Maybe one day it will be split for now, it's a city and Limerick certainly isn't alone in being a 5 seater. There is nothing shocking in this at all

Di0genes wrote: »

What I'm hearing since I've come back is that candidates are building their bases by turning up at funerals, wheeling out cars to nurses homes to carry their base out to polling stations, and getting out shovels to help keep church porches free from snow during the holidays

All nice politicking but how it helps serve their consistencies in any real sense simply boggles the bloody mind.

Maybe. But you're judging it against the UK system. A system where candidates are often parachuted into safe seats and areas they have no connection with. Where the candidate doesn't even matter, if you're any decent at all you get elected based on the colour of the badge on your chest in very safe seats where everybody votes traditionally

The candidates you are seeing in Limerick are fighting for any support they can get and most candidates fail at their first election. If it's political suicide not to attend funerals then they'll do it.

Liam Byrne

If any politician from the objectionable parties turned up at a funeral of a family member of mine I would ask them to leave, unless they genuinely knew the family (I think one does)

Them turning up unwanted is out of line; they've shown zero interest in my chances of a decent life so why should they be allowed abuse the event to promote their profile?

If you aren't family, in-law, significant other, friend, neighbour or work colleague of the deceased or their family you are not welcome at a funeral, and you definitely shouldn't turn up to advertise.

later12

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

That's a problem with Irish society, whereby Irish people are obsessed with government.

Really? You think obsession with Government is a problem in Ireland. I would struggle to find many Irish acquaintances of mine who could name one junior minister apart perhaps from Martin Mansergh. I would say most people on the street don't know who the Attorney General is or perhaps even who is Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries. I would also suggest that voter turnout in fact underlines a widely held political apathy in Ireland

There is no reason whatsoever why one of your local legislators should be considered "chief" of anything.

It's a pattern in the Irish psyche. For example, the Irish Examiner had a front page story about the death of an old hurling legend. Instead of heading it "Hurling legend dies" they headed it "Taoiseach leads tributes to ‘The Legend’ Doyle". Presumably if some part of the government wasn't involved people wouldn't be interested.

In fairness he was a giant in the sport and I think that commentary on behalf of the Taoiseach was not inappropriate, nor was the Examiner's take on the story by leading on The Taoiseach's commiserations inappropriate, if anything it just signified the sporting significance of the man in his playing career. Not something to frown upon, in my opinion.

expectationlost

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Its chicken and egg, do we grow up as an electorate first or do they take the plunge and risk their careers to make a stand?

you're the one defending it why don't you grow up?

Di0genes

feelingstressed wrote: »

This is the second thing in this thread you've been shocked over. Yet I'm the one with stressed in my username
The constituencies are based on population and are redrawn from time to time.
Maybe one day it will be split for now, it's a city and Limerick certainly isn't alone in being a 5 seater. There is nothing shocking in this at all

Yes there is, there is simply no way limerick needs five or even four TDs.

Maybe. But you're judging it against the UK system. A system where candidates are often parachuted into safe seats and areas they have no connection with. Where the candidate doesn't even matter, if you're any decent at all you get elected based on the colour of the badge on your chest in very safe seats where everybody votes traditionally

And these candidates are apparently building up a base by going to funerals?

Eliot Rosewater

later10 wrote: »

Really? You think obsession with Government is a problem in Ireland. I would struggle to find many Irish acquaintances of mine who could name one junior minister apart perhaps from Martin Mansergh.

I don't doubt that. But the obsession, as I see it, isn't concerned with specific members of parliament, but rather with the notion that government is an all-important thing that should be the focus of most things we do.

later10 wrote: »

In fairness he was a giant in the sport and I think that commentary on behalf of the Taoiseach was not inappropriate

But the feeling in that heading is that, even though this was a sporting story, the leader of the government has the most important word on it. Why is that?

Why is it, also, that the Taoiseach is standing on the podium when the GAA All-Ireland trophy is being given to the winning team? The President's present is justifiable, she being by definition the first citizen of the state, but I personally see no reason why the lead governor of the country should be standing there. But once again the feeling is that as lead governor he is "chief" of everything.

Mr. Loverman

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

That's a problem with Irish society, whereby Irish people are obsessed with government.

I'm think you're making quite a big jump to associate being OK with a TD coming to a funeral to being obsessed with government.

OhNoYouDidn't

expectationlost wrote: »

you're the one defending it why don't you grow up?

There is a difference between explaining something and defending it. Cop on.

irishh_bob

Di0genes wrote: »

I'm sorry I simply just don't understand this. Why? What possible purpose does the TD serve, and why should people be angry if they do or don't turn up? Genuine question

I've been in the UK for most of the past decade, and am utterly baffled by this.

many people ( especially in rural ireland ) see it as a badge of honour to have politicans show up at the funeral of a loved one

OhNoYouDidn't

irishh_bob wrote: »

many people ( especially in rural ireland ) see it as a badge of honour to have politicans show up at the funeral of a loved one

Exactly. And at the risk of repeating myself, its a huge snub if they don't.

expectationlost

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Exactly. And at the risk of repeating myself, its a huge snub if they don't.

not defending it no of course your not.

Di0genes

irishh_bob wrote: »

many people ( especially in rural ireland ) see it as a badge of honour to have politicans show up at the funeral of a loved one

Thats not a TDs job.

Gerry Manders

Di0genes wrote: »

I attended a removal recently. In attendance at the removal were both sitting TDs for the area, including a certain moustachio'd former Minister.

I was left shocked at this brazen bit of political showmanship in the midst of a family's grief.

Is this appropriate, or acceptable behaviour? Or am I being prudish and modest at the idea of a man wandering into the midst of a families private grief to press the flesh.

Thoughts?

i saw michael lowry at the funeral of the tipperay hurler and thought it was a disgrace how he conducted himself. he really went overboard

filthymcnasty

Gerry Manders wrote: »

i saw michael lowry at the funeral of the tipperay hurler and thought it was a disgrace how he conducted himself. he really went overboard

What did he do?

Di0genes

filthymcnasty wrote: »

What did he do?

I imagine it's a variation of the infamous Alan Partridge funeral bit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bYSV3OFYCQ

OhNoYouDidn't

Di0genes wrote: »

Thats not a TDs job.

Like it or not, it has become part of it.

Liam Byrne

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Exactly. And at the risk of repeating myself, its a huge snub if they don't.

They'd get a bigger and more public snub if they tried to bandwagon any funeral of anyone close to me!

OhNoYouDidn't

expectationlost wrote: »

not defending it no of course your not.

I'm not. There are lots of things that are the 'norm' in Irish political life, just because I understand why politicians show up at funerals does not mean I condone it. You do understand the concept of discussion forums, don't you?

later12

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I don't doubt that. But the obsession, as I see it, isn't concerned with specific members of parliament, but rather with the notion that government is an all-important thing that should be the focus of most things we do.

I don't see a problem with that... political leaders ought to be integrated into the social fabric, it is important, I would suggest, to be seen to take an interest in issues or events of cultural importance. An example I can think of was the recent culture night in Dublin... I felt it was very encouraging to see indvidual TDs taking an active part in the proceedings (regardless of what one might suppose their motive might have been)

pigeonbutler

Di0genes wrote: »

Thats not a TDs job.

It's a democracy. A TD's job is realistically whatever the electorate collectively decides it to be. Their decision to re-elect someone or not is effectively their judgement on whether they're doing their job.

If one TD wants to spend his time trying to be a fantastic national legislator while not being seen in his constituency he will inevitably be beaten by the guy that goes to every funeral but barely shows up for votes and never speaks in the Dáil unless it's a parliamentary question about some highly parochial concern.

I'd like to see a better system. One where we don't have multi-seat constituencies. And I think we'd be better off if people focused their frustrations on seeking reform of the system that creates clientelism rather than attacking the politicians who are simply doing what's required of them to be re-elected (and in the case of many new entrants to politics, doing it through gritted teeth).

nuac

In rural island it is the custom to attend funerals even if there is only the slightest family, business, social or other connection with the deceased. Most of the politicians in the area would have had some connection with some member of the deceased's family. It is generally regarded as a mark of respect for TD to attend a funeral. that is so, even if it is a form of electioneering.

Liam Byrne

nuac wrote: »

It is generally regarded as a mark of respect for TD to attend a funeral. that is so, even if it is a form of electioneering.

Surely it'd be more respectful to people to actually do the job they're paid to do ?

Maybe even work to ensure that the family can actually pay for a proper funeral ?

Then again, if the TD was Ahern [spit] and he showed up at mine maybe he'd just be checking to see if cause of death was following his advice.