Cardio with Starting Strength

solway

Hi im bout 6 months into starting strength and im wondering is doing 2 days a week of forestery running ok or am doin too much and am better off recovering on my off days. My runs take 35-40 mins to do each day. I want to get fit and strong at the same.

mrpink6789

Your legs could be fairly sore for squats the next day after running but I'm no expert. Could you do the run straight after your workout so you do have a full day in between to recover?
However your goals I think are a bit contradictory, I've never seen a weightlifter who can run a marathon for example and a runner who can bench 160kg but thats just me :P

Im sure someone will post a link shooting down my statement though

Jay Farrant CPT

solway wrote: »

Hi im bout 6 months into starting strength and im wondering is doing 2 days a week of forestery running ok or am doin too much and am better off recovering on my off days. My runs take 35-40 mins to do each day. I want to get fit and strong at the same.

You should concentrate on Strength training if you want to get strong simple. Yes Running is "Cardio" , but its Endurance training ,are you looking to become an endurance athlete ? stick a conditioning circuit in your week. strength training alone will keep you fit . Like the other post says with regards to a marathon runner / strongman if you want to be good at something than you have to train specifically to that goal.

A conditioning circuit is still "Cardio" . all Cardio is at the end of the day is elevation of the heart rate . Your lungs and heart would still be pounding after a good conditioning circuit.:cool:

<leave the advertising links out please>

d'Oracle

solway wrote: »

Hi im bout 6 months into starting strength and im wondering is doing 2 days a week of forestery running ok or am doin too much and am better off recovering on my off days. My runs take 35-40 mins to do each day. I want to get fit and strong at the same.

Are you already doing the runs?

My guess is, try it.
If you have problems recovering (i.e. missing reps/can't manage the weight jumps) then you will know that you are doing too much on your off days.

Or just get strong and leave the cardio out.

But I am a growing sceptical of the whole idea that running a bit will give you canceraidsjeebies.

Jay Farrant CPT

IMO If your serious about Strength Training I would just leave the Running Out . Simple ,I really dont see why its in your programme . They dont complement each other what so ever , and like I said ,if its purely for cardio reasons , Then do Some explosive Hill reps or a conditioning circuit in between . But leave out the Long distance running...... (Unless You want to run a marathon)

Monday Strength Training (Upper)

Wed Conditioning / Hill Reps (Fullbody)
Thur Active Recovery (Slow walk)

Fri or Sat Strength Training (Lower)

Something along those lines is fine

cc87

Forest running is interesting and relaxing i find.

OP if you like it and it isnt interfering with your strength training, dont stop.

It may be worth trying not running for 2/3 weeks and see if you notice a difference in how you recover from strength training.

You have you starting strength program going and if your still making gains on it, dont look at changing it up.

Hanley

Jay Farrant CPT wrote: »

IMO If your serious about Strength Training I would just leave the Running Out . Simple ,I really dont see why its in your programme . They dont complement each other what so ever , and like I said ,if its purely for cardio reasons , Then do Some explosive Hill reps or a conditioning circuit in between . But leave out the Long distance running...... (Unless You want to run a marathon)

Monday Strength Training (Upper)

Wed Conditioning / Hill Reps (Fullbody)
Thur Active Recovery (Slow walk)

Fri or Sat Strength Training (Lower)

Something along those lines is fine

What do you define as "serious"? Someone who wants to get strong to the exclusion of everything else?

Do you not find hard intervals more difficult to recover from than a moderate effort jog?

Jay Farrant CPT

Hanley wrote: »

What do you define as "serious"? Someone who wants to get strong to the exclusion of everything else?

Do you not find hard intervals more difficult to recover from than a moderate effort jog?

Well this guy is Doing 2 sessions a week of strength training . So I'm guessing his goal is to get strong . I wouldn't personally but a conditioning circuit etc in , But if this guy is insistent on some form of "cardio" Then I would go with the Hill reps etc. over the slow jog .

That's why I put in the Recovery day and active recovery day. For good recovery that would be 3 days rest .... Plenty of time

To be honest I would just drop the cardio and make it a 3 day a week programme and get serious about it . Lower day ,Upper day , full body

Like I said these dont complement each other .

cc87

How can someone comment on what his programs strengths and weaknesses without having a clue what his program is like?

Jay Farrant CPT

cc87 wrote: »

Forest running is interesting and relaxing i find.

OP if you like it and it isn't interfering with your strength training, dont stop.

It may be worth trying not running for 2/3 weeks and see if you notice a difference in how you recover from strength training.

You have you starting strength program going and if your still making gains on it, dont look at changing it up.

Why would you do a 2 day a week strength programme and include cardio ?
There's no logic ...

If the forest run was a brisk walk then fair enough it could be used as active recovery .

Its like training for a endurance event and strongman event at the same time ....

For some decent gain up the 2 day a week to a 3 day .
And put in a slow walk day for recovery if you love the forest stuff.

d'Oracle

He is probably doing 3 days of strength training.
Squat, press/bench & deadlift/chins.

Hanley

cc87 wrote: »

How can someone comment on what his programs strengths and weaknesses without having a clue what his program is like?

In fairness he did say he's doing Starting Strength. My personal opinion would be that whole program is a giant weakness but lets disregard that, we do know what we're working with on a programming level at least.

Jay Farrant CPT wrote: »

Well this guy is Doing 2 sessions a week of strength training . So I'm guessing his goal is to get strong . I wouldn't personally but a conditioning circuit etc in , But if this guy is insistent on some form of "cardio" Then I would go with the Hill reps etc. over the slow jog .

That's why I put in the Recovery day and active recovery day. For good recovery that would be 3 days rest .... Plenty of time

To be honest I would just drop the cardio and make it a 3 day a week programme and get serious about it . Lower day ,Upper day , full body

Like I said these dont complement each other .

I'd have said if he's only doing 2 sessions he's probably not that serious about it....

Ya gotta ask him why he's doing it the way he is... he may enjoy the runs, may be psychologically beneficial. There's days where I just can't face any interval or conditioning work for whatever reason, so some LIT's nice.

I do agree that they're not complementary tho and could do with reform. But if he's going from 2 things he likes, to 1 thing he hates... he's probably not gonna stick with it.

cc87

d'Oracle wrote: »

He is probably doing 3 days of strength training.
Squat, press/bench & deadlift/chins.

I have idea of the starting strength program but jay farrant seemed to be describing something else altogether

d'Oracle

cc87 wrote: »

I have idea of the starting strength program but jay farrant seemed to be describing something else altogether

He mightn't actually know what starting strength is.
Which is probably a good sign.

Jay Farrant CPT

cc87 wrote: »

I have idea of the starting strength program but jay farrant seemed to be describing something else altogether

Your right I had the 2 day a week in my head somewhere must of been from another post . my apologies .

But lets say he is doing a 3 day a week programme . Why do the Endurance work . endurance work is bad for causing high levels of cortisol. Which the last thing you want on a strength programme

Ps I wouldnt couple deadlift and chins , just thought I get that one in lol

cc87

Jay Farrant CPT wrote: »

Your right I had the 2 day a week in my head somewhere must of been from another post . my apologies .

But lets say he is doing a 3 day a week programme . Why do the Endurance work . endurance work is bad for causing high levels of cortisol. Which the last thing you want on a strength programme

Because he likes it.

30/40 minute run isnt anything too strenuous anyway. Wouldnt call it endurance work really. Unless he is really going hell for leather during them.

Jay Farrant CPT

d'Oracle wrote: »

He mightn't actually know what starting strength is.
Which is probably a good sign.

Its normally a 2 day a week workout something like this

Workout A
3x5 Squat
3x5 Press
1x5 Deadlift / 5x3 Power Cleans (Alternating)

Workout B
3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench Press
3x10 or 5x10 Back Extensions
Chin-Ups: 3 sets to failure or add weight if completing more than 15 reps

d'Oracle

Jay Farrant CPT wrote: »

Its normally a 2 day a week workout something like this

Workout A
3x5 Squat
3x5 Press
1x5 Deadlift / 5x3 Power Cleans (Alternating)

Workout B
3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench Press
3x10 or 5x10 Back Extensions
Chin-Ups: 3 sets to failure or add weight if completing more than 15 reps

Ok Yeah, but its usually 3 days alternating between the two.
At least thats what the book says...

Jay Farrant CPT

cc87 wrote: »

Because he likes it.

30/40 minute run isnt anything too strenuous anyway. Wouldnt call it endurance work really. Unless he is really going hell for leather during them.

It is really 40 Min's you could cover around 4 miles easy . To me that's endurance....

And its still a load of cortisol that you dont need . I would lay off the runs while doing the strength training and then bring them back in afterwards ..

Your only supposed to do strength for around the 6 week mark , so just do it properly get me .

cc87

Jay Farrant CPT wrote: »

Your only supposed to do strength for around the 6 week mark , so just do it properly get me .

strength training for 6 weeks? why only 6?

Jay Farrant CPT

d'Oracle wrote: »

Ok Yeah, but its usually 3 days alternating between the two.
At least thats what the book says...

I know what your saying Personally I would split it into

Upper day

Lower day

Full day

IMO . Where always telling people twice a week isn't enough so why should it be any different with strength . I know you need longer to recover etc ,but still this way you can ...

Jay Farrant CPT

cc87 wrote: »

strength training for 6 weeks? why only 6?

You would literally just burn out and stop making any sort of progress ....
you would plateau.

It all depends on your goal tho etc Say if I was training for worlds strongest man then fair enough , But if you were just looking to increase strength and want a programme specific for it than 6 week is the norm . I just finished a 4 week cluster set programme And I dont think I could have beared another week .. I was drained thank god the snow came lol:)

d'Oracle

Jay Farrant CPT wrote: »

I know what your saying Personally I would split it into

Upper day

Lower day

Full day

IMO . Where always telling people twice a week isn't enough so why should it be any different with strength . I know you need longer to recover etc ,but still this way you can ...

What sort of lifts would you be looking at for those three days?

Like
Upper : Bench and chins
Lower: Squat and deadlift

Full body: ?

Jay Farrant CPT

d'Oracle wrote: »

What sort of lifts would you be looking at for those three days?

Like
Upper : Bench and chins
Lower: Squat and deadlift

Full body: ?

Upper Horizontal
BB Bench Press

Lower Body
Deadlift / Hip dom

Full Vertical /Quad
Squat / Chins

I would stick some Horizontal Pulls on the monday.

d'Oracle

I Get you.

Thanks.

Jay Farrant CPT

d'Oracle wrote: »

I Get you.

Thanks.

At least some one does lol :rolleyes:

digme

solway wrote: »

Hi im bout 6 months into starting strength and im wondering is doing 2 days a week of forestery running ok or am doin too much and am better off recovering on my off days. My runs take 35-40 mins to do each day. I want to get fit and strong at the same.

2 days is fine. You're after getting a lot of your strength gains already from lifting for 6 months,doing a bit of running won't do any harm.

Jay Farrant CPT

digme wrote: »

2 days is fine. You're after getting a lot of your strength gains already from lifting for 6 months,doing a bit of running won't do any harm.

Yes true Forgot that he has been doing it for 6 months . But again I personally wouldnt be performing strenght training for 6 months . I say he maxed out on his strenght gains ages ago .

Hanley

Jay Farrant CPT wrote: »

You would literally just burn out and stop making any sort of progress ....
you would plateau.

It all depends on your goal tho etc Say if I was training for worlds strongest man then fair enough , But if you were just looking to increase strength and want a programme specific for it than 6 week is the norm . I just finished a 4 week cluster set programme And I dont think I could have beared another week .. I was drained thank god the snow came lol:)

6 weeks is the norm for who?

Who says it's the norm?

What do you do for the other 42 weeks?

Is there only ONE thing you can do to get stronger, and there's nothing you could possibly do to get around it?

Are you doomed to plateau after 6 weeks?

How long does the plateau last for?

And a 40 minute run producing significant amounts of cortisol, are you serious?

metamorphosis

40min does not lead to large amounts of the hormone cortisol been released in the body at all.

Doing too much cardio and not recovering enough will lead to large amounts of cortisol for the body to deal with

a 40min jog 1-2 times a week will in no way do that at all.

Jay Farrant CPT

Hanley wrote: »

6 weeks is the norm for who?

Who says it's the norm?

What do you do for the other 42 weeks?

Is there only ONE thing you can do to get stronger, and there's nothing you could possibly do to get around it?

Are you doomed to plateau after 6 weeks?

How long does the plateau last for?

And a 40 minute run producing significant amounts of cortisol, are you serious?

You are going to get higher amounts of cortisol levels from running than not running agreed ?
And Remember he's out in the forest ,So its going to be allot more difficult than on a nice flat treadmill for 40 Min's at 6 km h .

3 times a week / That's 3 times a week you could do with out it.
And it depends on how fast he is running ., and what time . cortisol levels are highest (naturally) in the early morning than the evening.

And 6 weeks would be My guideline . You would per iodize your training through out the year. (Unless our an athlete etc or training specific for an event)

I'm talking serious strength training here .

42 weeks . I'm not saying you wouldn't to any strength training for the rest of the year , just not 6 months straight .

That's just How I would run a Strength Programme . I just feel that 6 weeks of a tough strength programme is quite demanding on our body. I would certainly change it around after 6-10 weeks if I was going to continue.

At the end of the day everyone has there opinions on this sort of stuff. People know what work for them and there clients etc from there own experience's and generally stick to what works with them.

As regards to cardio in general . I wouldn't do it whilst doing my strength programme . I do a strength programme to get strong. And focus on that nothing else. Obviously This guy has it as his main way of resistance training so The cardio isn't so much of a big thing if he's been doing it for 6 months. I wonder if he's making much progress on it ?

solway

Hi,some very interesting points there.
Right i think i should have explained myself a bit better. Im a gaa player and find that physical strength is a weakness of mine in games. Im 5ft 10 just under 12 stone and have narrow width on my shoulders, light legs and arms. We went out of c'ship early last year and i decided i really needed to get stronger. Im doing 'SS' since mid June and have got good strength gains from it. Squat 65kg-95kg,bench press 40kg-55kg,deadlift 80kg-105kg. I feel now that i have to start getting fit for the upcoming season so thats why im doing forestery runs to get my heart and lungs back strong again before we start doing speed work in a couple of months. I want to have a bit of fitness in the bank plus i dont want to stop gaining strength or am i totally on the wrong track?
Heres my weeks work.

monday; squat, press,deadlift
tuesday; forestery run
wednesday; squat,bench press,power clean
thursday; rest
friday;squat,press,back extensions/chins
saturday; forestery run
sunday;rest
Started my running 21st december.

solway

Hi,some very interesting points there.
Right i think i should have explained myself a bit better. Im a gaa player and find that physical strength is a weakness of mine in games. Im 5ft 10 just under 12 stone and have narrow width on my shoulders, light legs and arms. We went out of c'ship early last year and i decided i really needed to get stronger. Im doing 'SS' since mid June and have got good strength gains from it. Squat 65kg-95kg,bench press 40kg-55kg,deadlift 80kg-105kg. I feel now that i have to start getting fit for the upcoming season so thats why im doing forestery runs to get my heart and lungs back strong again before we start doing speed work in a couple of months. I want to have a bit of fitness in the bank plus i dont want to stop gaining strength or am i totally on the wrong track?
Heres my weeks work.

monday; squat, press,deadlift
tuesday; forestery run
wednesday; squat,bench press,power clean
thursday; rest
friday;squat,press,back extensions/chins
saturday; forestery run
sunday;rest
Started my running 21st december.

Jay Farrant CPT

solway wrote: »

Hi,some very interesting points there.
Right i think i should have explained myself a bit better. Im a gaa player and find that physical strength is a weakness of mine in games. Im 5ft 10 just under 12 stone and have narrow width on my shoulders, light legs and arms. We went out of c'ship early last year and i decided i really needed to get stronger. Im doing 'SS' since mid June and have got good strength gains from it. Squat 65kg-95kg,bench press 40kg-55kg,deadlift 80kg-105kg. I feel now that i have to start getting fit for the upcoming season so thats why im doing forestery runs to get my heart and lungs back strong again before we start doing speed work in a couple of months. I want to have a bit of fitness in the bank plus i dont want to stop gaining strength or am i totally on the wrong track?
Heres my weeks work.

monday; squat, press,deadlift
tuesday; forestery run
wednesday; squat,bench press,power clean
thursday; rest
friday;squat,press,back extensions/chins
saturday; forestery run
sunday;rest
Started my running 21st december.

Ok that changes a few things as there is a need for Some sort of cardio/ endurance. I would stick to what your doing . Possible stick some sort of Sprinting workout in tho , Instead of two forestry runs . Your an athlete , And Im right in saying GAA isn't a endurance sport . So the Sprints would benefit you in becoming more explosive. yet still cardio.

Swoop Back extensions for deadlifts IMO

Deadlift , Squat , Press and Pull . The big 4 movements

Rycn

You're some man Jayo.

eroo

Jay Farrant CPT wrote: »

Why would you do a 2 day a week strength programme and include cardio ?
There's no logic ...

Yes there is. I had my suspicions the OP was a sportsman/woman and they just clarified it! 2 strength sessions a week is fine when conditioning needs to be added in. You can still make serious strength gains. So there is logic in it.

cc87 wrote: »

Because he likes it.

30/40 minute run isnt anything too strenuous anyway. Wouldnt call it endurance work really. Unless he is really going hell for leather during them.

Yes that is endurance training! I don't see how you think it isn't?

OP I'd drop the long distance runs. For GAA, a field sport, multi sprint stamina is what you should focus on rather than endurance running. i.e. interval training

2 strength sessions and 2 multi sprint sessions a week with a recovery session(light interval swims in a pool).

Starting Strength isn't really a conditioning friendly programme as it requires a lot of recovery.

Antisocialiser

eroo wrote: »

2 strength sessions and 2 multi sprint sessions a week with a recovery session(light interval swims in a pool).

Starting Strength isn't really a conditioning friendly programme as it requires a lot of recovery.

What would be a conditioning friendly programme?

SanoVitae

Just following this thread is playing havoc with my cortisol levels......

eroo

Antisocialiser wrote: »

What would be a conditioning friendly programme?

One that leaves room for conditioning work as the major working muscles are often too fatigued to undertake sprinting etc due to the amount of squatting in the programme.

2 total body strength sessions a week would work better alongside team conditioning sessions imo.

Antisocialiser

eroo wrote: »

One that leaves room for conditioning work as the major working muscles are often too fatigued to undertake sprinting etc due to the amount of squatting in the programme.

2 total body strength sessions a week would work better alongside team conditioning sessions imo.

So one less session a week. I take it you mean all the same compound movements but less reps in a set or less intensity i.e. 70%1RM 2x5? What type of rep range and number of sets would be more suitable for a strength program that leaves room for recovery?

Thanks

eroo

Antisocialiser wrote: »

So one less session a week. I take it you mean all the same compound movements but less reps in a set or less intensity i.e. 70%1RM 2x5? What type of rep range and number of sets would be more suitable for a strength program that leaves room for recovery?

Thanks

3-5 exercises a session including squat, deadlift, bench press, shoulder press and bent over row/pull ups. Max strength involves 1-3 sets per exercise with 1-4 reps.

Hanley

eroo wrote: »

Max strength involves 1-3 sets per exercise with 1-4 reps.

Is that so...?

eroo

Hanley wrote: »

Is that so...?

Yes.

Problem?

Hanley

eroo wrote: »

Yes.

Problem?

Other than you being wrong? Nah.

EDIT: Fine... tell me why strength training should only be done as you said.

metamorphosis

And I would say the last couple of posts have been zero help to the OP.

It would be nice to give information in posts rather than throwing out blanket statements. If posters can't stop acting like kids or posting something helpful, maybe just don't post?

Please try to keep the topic at hand and provide information to back up whats been said rather than letting in sarcastic/snide/<insert appropriate word here>

It's one thing for a thread going off topic when there is interesting debate but in situations like this, it just helps reinforce an attitude that keeps a lot of potential posters away from here.

/Mod rant.

eroo

Hanley wrote: »

Other than you being wrong? Nah.

EDIT: Fine... tell me why strength training should only be done as you said.

Can you point out to me exactly where I said strength training ''should only be done as I said''?

Transform

solway wrote: »

Hi im bout 6 months into starting strength and im wondering is doing 2 days a week of forestery running ok or am doin too much and am better off recovering on my off days. My runs take 35-40 mins to do each day. I want to get fit and strong at the same.

for the OP.

Simple answer no unless you are not eating enough you will be grand.

Keep aiming to lift more and some straight cardio is no big deal at all - i do it all the time and have never found it to be an issue unless its close to a competition for me

Hanley

eroo wrote: »

Can you point out to me exactly where I said strength training ''should only be done as I said''?

"Max strength involves 1-3 sets per exercise with 1-4 reps."

You made an unqualified statement. Are you now saying "sometimes" max strength involves the above?

papajimsmooth

Im fairly certain that maintaining the capacity to run around 5k year round would only help your recovery from weight training.

eroo

Hanley wrote: »

"Max strength involves 1-3 sets per exercise with 1-4 reps."

You made an unqualified statement. Are you now saying "sometimes" max strength involves the above?

No. I'm saying that is what I would prescribe to a player.

Now, again, where did I say exactly that strength training should only be done the way I say?

El Horseboxo

I lift heavy 3 times (my definition of heavy) a week with goals of increasing strength and getting bigger and i also do cardio 3 times a week. Never been a problem for me. If one began interfering with the other i'd revise. So OP if you feel fine after each and you don't see any decline in either one continue with both.

There's too much emphasis on this is right and that is wrong in fitness. Use opinions and articles as guidelines but never take them as Gospel. See what works for you.