FF supporting a FG Minority government

meditraitor

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fine-gael-eyes-singleparty-rule-with-help-from-ff-2474271.html
The prospect of this happening has been doing the rounds since the autumn, so considering the plethora of FG activists around here I think its probably the right place to ask?

How likely is this?

My opinion is that its very very likely, there is no real common ground between FG and Labour and that government will only fail miserably to the detriment of the people who vote for either.

A key election theme will be that "Ireland cannot afford a hard left government'' and that the Fine Gael strike force of Michael Noonan, Leo Varadkar and Brian Hayes can offer stability and competence and, in the shape of Mr Noonan, experience in key government posts

This is a very obvious..... look at some of the threads around here. The election started on boards months ago.

Fianna Fail leadership contender Micheal Martin and the retiring minister Noel Dempsey have both indicated they could support a Fine Gael government if it was implementing policies broadly compatible with those of Fianna Fail

Birds of a feather.....

Fine Gael eyes single-party rule -- with help from FF

By JOHN DRENNAN
Sunday December 26 2010
SENIOR Fine Gael strategists are eyeing up the prospect of a single-party government -- with the voting support of Fianna Faill

orly.

If this happens I will leave this country and never look back...... but isnt that what they want ?

Dr. Baltar

It does make sense. From a political sense, it would be great for Irish politics as a whole to finally remove Civil War Politics and unite the Centre-Right Parties.
On the other hand however, this would also severely strengthen the left.

No matter who is in government next year, they are going to leave government extremely unpopular due to the amount of cutting that they will have to do. If the centre right joins together, then you will also see the left joining together.

In the long run, I believe this would be great for politics, but in the short term, I would be absolutely sickened at the thought of Fianna Fáil having anything to do with government policy post election.

Dannyboy83

Dr. Baltar wrote: »

It does make sense. From a political sense, it would be great for Irish politics as a whole to finally remove Civil War Politics and unite the Centre-Right Parties.
On the other hand however, this would also severely strengthen the left.

How are the left going to unite?

Did you read the article in the OP's post?

"Labour's working class support is now being threatened, while the high-earning ABC1 voters, who are the softest element of the Labour vote, will flee in droves if they see Sinn Fein coming in the back door''.

The opposite is happening, Sinn Fein is mopping up many of Labour's potential voters, and not just swing voters.
Labour could absorb other left wing parties, but not Sinn Fein, because socialism is just a secondary aspect of the party, not their primary objective.
It would have to be Sinn Fein absorbing Labour and that is not going to happen.

I don't expect FG/FF to unite either tho.
They would both have to become a lot less relevant before that would happen.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fine-gael-eyes-singleparty-rule-with-help-from-ff-2474271.html
No matter who is in government next year, they are going to leave government extremely unpopular due to the amount of cutting that they will have to do.

Unpopular among the left - who wouldn't vote for them for that reason anyway, so nothing lost.
And popular among the centre and right - many of whom are voting for them based on the fact that nobody else will get government expenditure under control.

Stuff like Faircare and ReInventing Government are just bonuses.
This is one of the most socially conscious elections we have ever had.
Society vs Individual

People on the centre and the right will be putting society first.
Trying to cut expenditure, reform taxation, stem emigration by making conditions suitable for business and employment, stimulate employment, jumpstart the country.
Reform the health system through FairCare. Reform government.
If the Celtic Tiger was all about the individual, then post-Celtic Tiger, it's all about society.

People on the left will be putting the individual first. (i.e themselves)
Trying to maintain or increase expenditure, heavily increase taxation, and society will have to deal with the consequences however necessary.
People on the left and swing voters will mostly be voting for personal reasons or out of fear, i.e. preventing cuts to their pay or family member's pay or social welfare.
Society must suffer to protect the individual's standard of living.

If the centre right joins together, then you will also see the left joining together.

Only way I see the centre-right joining together, would be if Fianna Fail got 5 seats or less at the GE following this one. I just don't see it happening.

The Left isn't very fragmented anyway. Most people with a credible Left agenda already support Labour.
People on the left, who don't support labour, frequently just happen to be on the left, but with a more important primary objective.
Sinn Fein are not growing through policy, merely through protest votes and disillusioned people. That will work in their favour at this election, but they will lose most of their gains at the next GE anyway.

(BTW, I always find the Fianna Fail description of Centre-Right as strange. They're Centre-Left. They doubled social welfare rates from 99 to 09.
They tripled public sector pay and pensions from 99 to 09.
They have heavily increased taxation since the bust to prevent cuts to expenditure.
Labour will never be able to sustain Fianna Fail's socialist accomplishments, not to mind better them.

In the long run, I believe this would be great for politics, but in the short term, I would be absolutely sickened at the thought of Fianna Fáil having anything to do with government policy post election.

Most voters in Ireland stick close to the centre regardless.

Byron85

The reaction to this is going to be very interesting among the general public as they're possibly shooting themselves in the foot with this tactic.

mikemac

Byron85 wrote: »

The reaction to this is going to be very interesting among the general public as they're possibly shooting themselves in the foot with this tactic.

Yes but I'd want more confirmation before I'd believe it

SENIOR Fine Gael strategists are eyeing up the prospect of a single-party government -- with the voting support of Fianna Fail

And I'd like to see somebody give a direct quote, the chairman and senior FG members can speak for themselves.

Fine Gael is not targeting an overall majority

Going a bit offtopic but I would think it's something a main party should aim for even if it's improbable. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst and all that. Putting out a message like that may be realistic but it's running yourself down and admitting defeat. Why not try for it and if you fail nothing lost.

In my book if you are forced to enter a coalition you haven't realy "won" the election. But that's just me

PomBear

Wouldn't be suprised, FG have shown themselves to be pretty spineless as opposition

syklops

PomBear wrote: »

Wouldn't be suprised, FG have shown themselves to be pretty spineless as opposition

Care to clarify that?

Kev_ps3

They are basically the same anyway. The same idiots vote for both.

PeterIanStaker

SI: DR


(Sunday Independent: Didn't Read)

irishh_bob

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

How are the left going to unite?

Did you read the article in the OP's post?



The opposite is happening, Sinn Fein is mopping up many of Labour's potential voters, and not just swing voters.
Labour could absorb other left wing parties, but not Sinn Fein, because socialism is just a secondary aspect of the party, not their primary objective.
It would have to be Sinn Fein absorbing Labour and that is not going to happen.

I don't expect FG/FF to unite either tho.
They would both have to become a lot less relevant before that would happen.


Unpopular among the left - who wouldn't vote for them for that reason anyway, so nothing lost.
And popular among the centre and right - many of whom are voting for them based on the fact that nobody else will get government expenditure under control.

Stuff like Faircare and ReInventing Government are just bonuses.
This is one of the most socially conscious elections we have ever had.
Society vs Individual

People on the centre and the right will be putting society first.
Trying to cut expenditure, reform taxation, stem emigration by making conditions suitable for business and employment, stimulate employment, jumpstart the country.
Reform the health system through FairCare. Reform government.
If the Celtic Tiger was all about the individual, then post-Celtic Tiger, it's all about society.

People on the left will be putting the individual first. (i.e themselves)
Trying to maintain or increase expenditure, heavily increase taxation, and society will have to deal with the consequences however necessary.
People on the left and swing voters will mostly be voting for personal reasons or out of fear, i.e. preventing cuts to their pay or family member's pay or social welfare.
Society must suffer to protect the individual's standard of living.


Only way I see the centre-right joining together, would be if Fianna Fail got 5 seats or less at the GE following this one. I just don't see it happening.

The Left isn't very fragmented anyway. Most people with a credible Left agenda already support Labour.
People on the left, who don't support labour, frequently just happen to be on the left, but with a more important primary objective.
Sinn Fein are not growing through policy, merely through protest votes and disillusioned people. That will work in their favour at this election, but they will lose most of their gains at the next GE anyway.

(BTW, I always find the Fianna Fail description of Centre-Right as strange. They're Centre-Left. They doubled social welfare rates from 99 to 09.
They tripled public sector pay and pensions from 99 to 09.
They have heavily increased taxation since the bust to prevent cuts to expenditure.
Labour will never be able to sustain Fianna Fail's socialist accomplishments, not to mind better them.



Most voters in Ireland stick close to the centre regardless.

was it dev once said that labour would have to wait as FF are the labour party in ireland

ps , thier will be no minority goverment as FF would never put the national interest 1st and support such an arrangement , its simply not the FF way

irishh_bob

feelingstressed wrote: »

Yes but I'd want more confirmation before I'd believe it



And I'd like to see somebody give a direct quote, the chairman and senior FG members can speak for themselves.



Going a bit offtopic but I would think it's something a main party should aim for even if it's improbable. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst and all that. Putting out a message like that may be realistic but it's running yourself down and admitting defeat. Why not try for it and if you fail nothing lost.

In my book if you are forced to enter a coalition you haven't realy "won" the election. But that's just me

had they replaced enda , FG could easily have secured an overall majority , thier chance was bigger than the labour party,s in the uk in 1997

Biggins

I don't want FF in government, I don't want them having a say, I don't want them to exist any more.
...And if any other party jumps into bed with them, that party will NEVER get my vote again as long as I breathe.

Liam Byrne

Biggins wrote: »

I don't want FF in government, I don't want then having a say, I don't want them to exist any more.
...And if any other party jumps into bed with them, that party will NEVER get my vote again as long as I breathe.

+1,000,000,000

I can't remember offhand, but I believe John Drennan writes for the Sunday Independent ? If my memory is correct, then that gives the quoted article as much credibility as - I dunno - Brian Lenihan.

As for the poster who claimed that "the same idiots vote for both"; I was tempted to report this, but then realised that it's not an insult to me, since I only - possibly - vote for one, so I'm not one of the idiots.

galwayrush

I don't want to see those FF incompetent self serving traitors ever get rewarded in any way again.

johngalway

meditraitor wrote: »

How likely is this?

About as likely as me leaving the foxes mind my lambs in Spring.

The quote was "hard left" Government. The question I have is, does Labour qualify as "hard left", in all interviews with Labour people that I've heard they've always taken issue with that label being applied to them.

Strangely no mention of Richard Bruton. Also, as someone said, there was no direct quotes in the article, so....

FG/LAB remains the most likely IMO.

ilovesleep

Biggins wrote: »

I don't want FF in government, I don't want then having a say, I don't want them to exist any more.
...And if any other party jumps into bed with them, that party will NEVER get my vote again as long as I breathe.

+10000000000

FF need to go completely.

Id love to see our new government fighting the EU to bring back executions. We need it. Hang all of FF starting with Bertie Ahern.

goose2005

This is the Sindo, trolling as usual. They want to scare middle-class Labour voters into voting FG. The idea of the Irish Labour Party being "hard left":rolleyes: They'll collectivise the Golden Vale before the year is out!

ninty9er

It's not an impossibility and I'd be in broad agreement with what Dempsey said, if he did say it.

There's an awful lot of Fine Gael members that I know that are completely repulsed by the idea of going into government with Labour.

later12

Frankly I would rather see Fine Gael in power with a junior FF coalition partner than FG-Labour.

If there was a split in the FF parliamentary party, with a new party emerging from the ashes who were willing to support a FG Government, I think that would be the best possible outcome we could realistically hope for as things stand.

I'd be all for postponing a Labour Government, it is imply not the time to put the left, with their alliance to the trade unions, into power.

the groutch

later10 wrote: »

Frankly I would rather see Fine Gael in power with a junior FF coalition partner than FG-Labour.

And I'd like to see FF disappear into oblivion, and Bertie be left rotting in a prison cell, but unfortunately that won't happen either

PomBear

syklops wrote: »

Care to clarify that?

they've done little to nothing as leading opposition parties. Care to clarify the opposite.

later12

PomBear wrote: »

they've done little to nothing as leading opposition parties. Care to clarify the opposite.

What policies would you have the non ruling party implement

PomBear

later10 wrote: »

What policies would you have the non ruling party implement

They show opposition and not turn their head when FF wanted to bring the IMF deal in without a Dáil vote and are happy to see 3 constituencies without full representation or actually show a bit of backbone.

unit 1

So let's pretend that FG get say 70-75 seats and FF get say 15-30 seats.
Now EK is thinking, lets form a new political party, say The People's Party, and offer membership to all and sundry, but particularly 15 or more members of FF, particularly those not comtaminated by being members of the old guard or previous ministers.
They could sell this as being, in the national interest, an end to civil war politics, an offer of a left right choice to the voters, a stable government, a new party to lead us out of the imf, a party of integrity, etc etc.
This may seem fanciful at the moment, but if anyone could do it maybe an honest broker like Kenny could. It just might be possible, because as we now know anything might happen the way things are going.

Shea O'Meara

This is a hoodwink pro FFail indo tale. Pure and simple.

FFail have a core support of let's say 18-20%

Fear monger factor of the crazy lefties

Add FG & FFail putting the country first, (which is laughable).

All of the above means people partial to FG because they are simply anti-FFail may jump ship to labour or whom ever.
It's designed to shake up any rise in Labour or FG support in my view.
What it says in a long winded way is.....'Sure they're all the same, but at least FFail have the experience.'
Which is crazy talk.

The Volt

ninty9er wrote: »

There's an awful lot of Fine Gael members that I know that are completely repulsed by the idea of going into government with Labour.

I can assure you that the flipside of this applies as well.

Jayuu

Personally I don't think any party is going to want to have anything to do with Fianna Fail for a long while to come. Even if the maths added up I don't think there is any way that Fine Gael would look to them for a formal coalition.

As for what Fianna Fail do themselves, well they know they are probably going to get hammered in the next election. The way they will want to rebuild is to oppose every single government policy and hope that the next government can't get us out of the mess. That way they can put the blame on that government and sweep back into power. It was what they did in the mid-80s.

The idea that they would adopt a Tallaght Strategy 2 approach and support a government that is trying to clean up their mess is beyond comprehension.

mossyc123

meditraitor wrote: »

If this happens I will leave this country and never look back...... but isnt that what they want ?

To be honest, I doubt if any of the political parties give a sh!t whether or not you emigrate.

Biggins

mossyc123 wrote: »

To be honest, I doubt if any of the political parties give a sh!t whether or not you emigrate.

Actually FF are hoping between one group/category or another of people, that 100,000 leave the country so their austerity plans work - and I have read this from them a number of times!

ilovesleep

Biggins wrote: »

Actually FF are hoping between one group/category or another of people, that 100,000 leave the country so their austerity plans work - and I have read this from them a number of times!

Fcuking bullies!
I really hope the irish become extremely stubborn and stay.

later12

Biggins wrote: »

Actually FF are hoping between one group/category or another of people, that 100,000 leave the country so their austerity plans work - and I have read this from them a number of times!

Read it? Where? And please don't say boards.ie, from what I can see there is little to no direct input from significantly relevant FF party activists on here.

Originally Posted by PomBear

Originally Posted by later10
What policies would you have the non ruling party implement

They show opposition and not turn their head when FF wanted to bring the IMF deal in without a Dáil vote and are happy to see 3 constituencies without full representation or actually show a bit of backbone.

But they have voted against the bailout and they also moved the writs to bring about the three bye-elections.

I'm not sure that you actually appreciate how little power the non ruling parties have in implementing policy tbh.

mikemac

later10 wrote: »

Read it? Where? And please don't say boards.ie, from what I can see there is little to no direct input from significantly relevant FF party activists on here.

If I was a FF party activist I wouldn't post here. Politics forum used to be about debate, now it's about shouting others down. It is not as bad as politics.ie where personal insults are acceptable. But it's not far off.

Instead of posts saying I'd like to see FF wiped out I would like to see your ideas and suggestions on what the replacement is

later10 wrote: »

I'm not sure that you actually appreciate how little power the non ruling parties have in implementing policy tbh.

It's true, a Taioseach with a majority and an effective party whip has the main power in Ireland. I'd say give the Seanad and President more power but from what I've seen the majority of boards.ie want the Seanad abolished and possibly the Presidency too. Hey, lets make Brian Cowen dictator :rolleyes:

raymon

feelingstressed wrote: »

Instead of posts saying I'd like to see FF wiped out I would like to see your ideas and suggestions on what the replacement is

Dear feelingstressed. I have an idea. FF should make a statement that they will no longer promote or condone corruption, lies, perjury, forgery or treasonous activities. A few of the big hitters in this area will no longer be running . They should then expel the few bad apples that are left. People might start to trust them again.

Also a good sincere apology for ruining the country would be welcome

Shea O'Meara

feelingstressed wrote: »

If I was a FF party activist I wouldn't post here. Politics forum used to be about debate, now it's about shouting others down. It is not as bad as politics.ie where personal insults are acceptable. But it's not far off.

Instead of posts saying I'd like to see FF wiped out I would like to see your ideas and suggestions on what the replacement is

On that point, and across party, we must remember:

A homeless charity has said people who recently lost their jobs are being forced to sleep rough.

Depaul Ireland has urged the Government and housing agencies to set a new date to create 1,200 new units of affordable accommodation to take people out of hostels and B and Bs.

An estimated 5,000 people, including families, are homeless in Ireland, with 70 sleeping rough.

The Government has failed to meet its own target of ending long-term homelessness by the end of this year.

http://news.eircom.net/breakingnews/19093609/?view=Standard

So being in any way against bashing the current situation, that being FFail, on the grounds that an alternative must first be put forward is pretty much a limp argument.
To simplify, I don't like being homeless.....do I need give an alternative?
To go with the bull**** if I may, FG would make you just as homeless and god forbid Labour get in, sure you'd be not even able to remember having a home!
Please.

Biggins

later10 wrote: »

Read it? Where? And please don't say boards.ie.

There was a number of off hand statements made by Fianna Fail politicians on air to interviewers in early November and December saying they were hoping for up to 100,000 to leave in the next four years. Their words at the time were (and possibly still are) indicative of a quiet hope by FF, if only to have an effect on unemployment figures which they want to see decrease (- even if they have to play with the figures!).
Subsequently their words were tackled at the time by FG, SF and Labour a number of times on air on TV3 and some of RTE's debate shows.
UNITE Regional Secretary Jimmy Kelly went on to say:

The current Government budget policy is based on hoping and planning for mass emigration unseen since the 1980s. The Department of Finance pre-Budget statement from Thursday includes reference to net emigration being needed to restrain the pace of growth in labour supply.

http://aprnonline.com/?p=79577

Sinn Féin councillor Thérèse Ruane tackled FF'ers, saying the Government was relying on emigration for their own reasons.
See: http://www.advertiser.ie/mayo/article/33451

The matter arose again around budget time and with the official publication of FF's four year plan. Fine Gael Innovation Spokeswoman Deirdre Clune TD described that Budget subsequently along with their prior comments, as an invitation to emigrate for young people.

Young Fine Gael President, Eric Keane stated at one stage in retort to it all "Fianna Fáil is happy to let our young people emigrate to solve their problems".

Officially, FF stated that 100,000 was expected to leave in the next four years anyway: http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Government-predicts-100000-to-leave-Irish-shores-in-next-four-years-106753288.html

But this is nothing new and FG Michael Ring T.D. alone besides others, has called out the government on their antics in this direction. He tackled them for even making it harder for those returning to get back into the system.
(...and if they are not in the system, the official unemployment numbers are lower! Convenient!)

There seems to be an increasing trend to refuse benefits to some classes of people. Formerly self-employed people without work are already in this situation. Now, increasingly, returned emigrants are being refused.

It seems that not only does Fianna Fail depend on emigration as its main employment strategy, that when people leave they may not return unless they are prepared to risk beggary.

See: http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=2980

Biggins

raymon wrote: »

Dear feelingstressed. I have an idea. FF should make a statement that they will no longer promote or condone corruption, lies, perjury, forgery or treasonous activities. A few of the big hitters in this area will no longer be running . They should then expel the few bad apples that are left. People might start to trust them again.

Also a good sincere apology for ruining the country would be welcome

That statement will never be made. There is too many skeletons in their closet. There would be too much to clean out!
For example:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In October 2007, former Fianna Fail Government Press Secretary Frank Dunlop told the Mahon Tribunal that property developer Owen O’Callaghan paid off a debt of £10,700 for Fianna Fail councillor Colm McGrath when he was facing a court judgment.

In October 2007, a book was published that included a claim that a serving Government Minister has admitted taking cocaine, and that he wasn’t the only one doing it. The Taoiseach Bertie Ahern had made no effort to investigate it.

In September 2007, Fianna Fail TD Michael Collins was found guilty in court of obtaining a tax clearance certificate under false pretences. He had previously made a €130,000 tax settlement arising from a bogus non-resident bank account.

In September 2007, jailed Fianna Fail councillor Michael ‘Stroke’ Fahey had missed six months of council meetings, and by law he should have been deemed to have resigned. He escaped this by asking the council to deem his absence to be ‘due to illness and attendance in Dublin’.

In September 2007, Taoiseach Bertie Ahern, while being questioned at the Mahon Tribunal, accepted that his earlier story that Celia Larkin had made a £30,000 sterling transaction on his behalf could not be correct, unless the bank records were inaccurate.

In September 2007, Taoiseach Bertie Ahern, while being questioned at the Mahon Tribunal, said that he must have given £30,000 to somebody else (to make a transaction that the bank had no record for), but he didn’t know who he gave the money to.

In August 2007, Bertie Ahern appointed as a Senator former Fianna Fail TD Ivor Callely, who had just lost his Dail seat in a general election, and who had resigned as a Junior Minister after a scandal in 2005.

In August 2007, Bertie Ahern appointed as a Senator former Fianna Fail TD John Ellis, who had just lost his Dail seat in a general election, and who had resigned as chair of an Oireachtas committee after a scandal in 1999.

In July 2007 the Standards in Public Office Commission said that Fianna Fail had failed to report a donation in the party’s statutory declarations for 2005.

In June 2007, Taoiseach Bertie Ahern made secret deals, using taxpayers money, with independent TDs to secure their support as Taoiseach. Two of these independent TDs, Beverly Flynn and Michael Lowry, had previously been forced to resign from their parties after scandals.

In June 2007, Fianna Fail changed the law to create three new Junior Ministers with salaries of €150,000 a year. They had previously done this in 1977 and 1980. When Fine Gael did the same in 1995, Fianna Fail called it an abuse of the taxpayer and an act of hypocrisy, and Bertie Ahern vowed to abolish the new posts.

In March 2007, Fianna Fail councillor Michael ‘Stroke’ Fahey was jailed for twelve months after being found guilty of defrauding his own council of €15,000 and falsely implicating an innocent contractor in the crime. The jailed councillor was also chairman of the Limerick Prison visiting committee.

In May 2007, stockbroker Padraic O’Connor said that Bertie Ahern was wrong to say that he had given Ahern £5,000 as a loan from a friend in 1993. O’Connor said he was not a friend of Ahern’s, that he had been asked for a political donation of £5,000, that he had given that on a company cheque, and that he had been given in return a false invoice for consultancy work that had not been done.

In February 2007, Taoiseach Bertie Ahern praised the Moriarty Tribunal for its ‘outstanding work in painstakingly stripping away the layers of secrecy and obscurity surrounding Mr Haughey’s financial affairs and exposing them to public scrutiny.’
(He was quick to reverse those words later when his own antics began to be exposed!)

In December 2006, the Moriarty Tribunal found that former Taoiseach Charles Haughey took payments of €11.56 million, or €45 million in today’s money, between 1979 and 1996, and granted favours in return.

In October 2006, it emerged that Taoiseach Bertie Ahern had bought his house from businessman Michael Wall, who had been at a dinner in Manchester at which Ahern was given £8,000 sterling. When asked why he had not previously said that Wall was at the dinner, Ahern replied that Wall had not eaten the dinner.

In September 2006, Taoiseach Bertie Ahern said that, when he was Minister for Finance, he had unexpectedly received a donation of £8,000 sterling from some millionaires who he had a meal with in Manchester on the night before a Manchester United football match.

In September 2006, Taoiseach Bertie Ahern accepted that he had appointed people who gave him money to State boards, but he insisted that he did not appoint them because they gave him money. He said he had appointed them because they were his friends.

In September 2006, Taoiseach Bertie Ahern said that he had accepted £39,000 from friends, including the brilliantly-named Paddy the Plasterer, in 1993 and 1994. He said it was loans, and that he had tried to pay them back but they had all refused.

In September 2006, when Taoiseach Bertie Ahern was first asked about allegations of receiving from €50,000 and €100,000 from businessmen, he told journalists that a lot of the report was correct but that ‘the figures are off the wall.’ This, of course, was true, because he got some of the money ‘off Michael Wall’.

In December 2005, Fianna Fail Junior Minister Ivor Callely resigned when it emerged that a top construction company had painted his house free of charge, while the company was also doing work for the Eastern Health Board of which Callely was chairperson.

In April 2005, former Fianna Fail Junior Minister for Transport, Jim McDaid, who had led an anti-drink-driving campaign, was arrested after drunkenly driving his car the wrong way up a busy dual carriageway.

In January 2005, former Fianna Fail Justice Minister Ray Burke was jailed for six months for making false tax declarations, breaking a law that he himself had helped to pass. He served four and a half months in Arbour Hill prison.

In May 2004, Fianna Fail expelled Mayo TD Beverly Flynn from the Party. Bertie Ahern said the integrity of the party depended on her expulsion, that Fianna Fail was at a crossroads, and that the party would also have to deal with any other members who transgressed ethics and standards in public life.

In September 2003, Fianna Fail TD Michael Collins resigned from the Parliamentary Party after making a €130,000 tax settlement arising from a bogus non-resident bank account.

In September 2003, Fianna Fail TD GV Wright knocked down a nurse while driving under the influence of alcohol. The nurse’s leg was broken in four places.

In December 2002, former Fianna Fail Government Press Secretary Frank Dunlop told the Flood Tribunal that former Fianna Fail TD Liam Lawlor (who he also knew as ‘Mr Big’) was the first person to tell him that money would have to be paid to councillors in return for their votes.

In November 2002, former Fianna Fail Government press Secretary Frank Dunlop named six Fianna Fail councilors who he bribed to secure the rezoning of land at Carrickmines in south Dublin.

In September 2002, the Flood Tribunal found that former Fianna Fail Justice Minister Ray Burke received corrupt payments, including £125,000 from property developers and £30,000 from the owners of Century Radio.

In September 2002, the Flood Tribunal found that former Fianna Fail Government Press Secretary PJ Mara had failed to co-operate with the Tribunal, by failing to provide details of an overseas account. In the 1980s, in a Hot Press interview, Mara said that his greatest ambition was ‘never to be found out’.

In May 2002, former Fianna Fail Government press Secretary Frank Dunlop said that he paid at least £160,000 to 25 councillors in relation to the redrafting of the Dublin County Council development plan from 1991 to 1993.

In February 2002, former Fianna Fail TD Liam Lawlor was jailed for a third time for contempt of court when he refused to comply with orders of the Flood Tribunal. When the Dail called for his resignation, he was brought to Leinster House in a prison van to speak against the motion. Lawlor had previously chaired the Dail Ethics Committee.

In January 2002, former Fianna Fail TD Liam Lawlor was jailed for a second time for contempt of court when he refused to comply with orders of the Flood Tribunal.

In December 2001, Fianna Fail TD Ned O’Keefe resigned as a Junior Minister. He had voted on a bill about feeding bonemeal to animals, forgetting to inform the Dail that his family was involved in manufacturing the substance.

In April 2001, Fianna Fail TD Beverly Flynn resigned from the Oireachtas Public Accounts Committee. She had lost a libel case that she had taken against RTE, who had correctly reported that she had sold banking products designed to assist tax evaders. After losing the case, she faced a €2million legal bill.

In January 2001, former Fianna Fail TD Liam Lawlor was jailed for contempt of court when he refused to comply with orders of the Flood Tribunal.

In June 2000, Fianna Fail TD Liam Lawlor resigned from the Parliamentary Party after he misled an internal party investigation about a donation that he had got. Lawlor was also chair of the Oireachtas Joint Ethics committee.

In May 2000, Fianna Fail Finance Minister Charlie McCreevy nominated Hugh O’Flaherty to a £147,000 job as Vice President of the European Investment Bank. O’Flaherty was a former High Court judge who had been forced to resign after a scandal the previous year.

In February 2000, Fianna Fail TD Denis Foley resigned from the Parliamentary Party. He had £100,000 in an illegal offshore account. He said that he knew that his account might have been an Ansbacher one, but he had been ‘hoping against hope’ that it was not.

In November 1999, Fianna Fail TD John Ellis resigned as chairperson of the Oireachtas Agriculture Committee. He owed money to farmers, he had £250,000 in debts written off by NIB, and Charles Haughey had given him £26,000 of taxpayers cash to settle other debts.

I think this is just funny so I left it included! - In January 1999, former Fianna Fail Minister Padraig Flynn appeared on the Late Late Show on RTE. Now a European Commissioner, Flynn complained about the difficulties of living on ‘just £100,000 a year’ when he had three houses, housekeepers and various cars to maintain. ‘You should try it,’ he added.

In June 1995, Celia Larkin lodged £11,743.34 into Fianna Fail leader Bertie Ahern’s bank account. Ahern says that £10,000 sterling of this was actually his own money, part of £50,000 that he had earlier withdrawn from his own account and used to buy £30,000 sterling. However, the bank has no record of selling £30,000 sterling to anybody during that period.

In December 1994, Celia Larkin lodged IR£28,772.90 into Fianna Fail leader Bertie Ahern’s bank account. Ahern says that this was £30,000 sterling cash given to him in a briefcase by his soon-to-be landlord, just after he had become Fianna Fail leader and was expected to become Taoiseach However, the amount equates exactly to $45,000 based on bank exchange rates on that date.

http://www.druidschool.com/site/1030100/page/928971[/FONT]

...And the above just covers a period of around 5 to ten years - and antics that we know of!

Keep in mind ALSO, how much is there that we don't know of and how long is FF in government again?
Lets not forget about the perks/expenses fiasco's later from the likes of heads of FAS or O'Donaghue and more that indicate that there is many more things we are only catching up with.

No, you will never get that statement, FF have too much to lose and too much in their closets!
...And that includes Bertie alone. I hear he likes closets!

Sir Oxman

Biggins wrote: »

That statement will never be made. There is too many skeletons in their closet. There would be too much to clean out!
For example:



...And the above just covers a period of around 5 to ten years - and antics that we know of!

Keep in mind ALSO, how much is there that we don't know of and how long is FF in government again?
Lets not forget about the perks/expenses fiasco's later from the likes of heads of FAS or O'Donaghue and more that indicate that there is many more things we are only catching up with.

No, you will never get that statement, FF have too much to lose and too much in their closets!
...And that includes Bertie alone. I hear he likes closets!

And don't forget that Ahern B made a statement many years back as Taoiseach that he would not countenance any corruption or dodgy dealings within his party or public life (at the height of the Haughey tribunal) ...

Truth is that FF cannot ever be trusted by anyone with a sliver of intelligence - it is a rotten, corrupt and malign force in Irish life and to answer another poster, what is the alternative?
Everyone and everything else, that's what.

IMO, anyone with any connection to the FF party cannot be part of any solution. Rotten to the core.

Dob74

later10 wrote: »

Frankly I would rather see Fine Gael in power with a junior FF coalition partner than FG-Labour.

If there was a split in the FF parliamentary party, with a new party emerging from the ashes who were willing to support a FG Government, I think that would be the best possible outcome we could realistically hope for as things stand.

I'd be all for postponing a Labour Government, it is imply not the time to put the left, with their alliance to the trade unions, into power.

A FG/FF coalition would make alot sence than a Lab/FG.
All there policies mirror each other.

Personally I will be voting for Labour first, Sf second and none of the civil war parties.
Neo-liberal economic policies got us into this mess, a tighter regulated market will get us out.

Jayuu

Dob74 wrote: »

A FG/FF coalition would make alot sence than a Lab/FG.
All there policies mirror each other.

Personally I will be voting for Labour first, Sf second and none of the civil war parties.
Neo-liberal economic policies got us into this mess, a tighter regulated market will get us out.

I think you've got to realise that Labour are more of less looking the same way as FG with regard to the bailout. They want to renegotiate the terms but they've more or less committed to taking the money. They may have a difference in the actual balance between cuts and tax increases but more or less they're going in the same direction.

SF have decided to the reject the bailout but they've not explained what happens in mid-2011 when we run out of money. They seem to be just hoping that by then the bond yields will have dropped and that we can continue to borrow from the markets. I've yet to see any independent economist say their approach is a solid one.

later12

feelingstressed wrote: »

If I was a FF party activist I wouldn't post here. Politics forum used to be about debate, now it's about shouting others down. It is not as bad as politics.ie where personal insults are acceptable. But it's not far off.

Instead of posts saying I'd like to see FF wiped out I would like to see your ideas and suggestions on what the replacement is

Actually I wouldn't like to see FF wiped out; rather, I would like to see it go through a baptism of fire. I am what I would consider a long term FF voter, although I intend to vote FG if I am in Ireland for the next election.
I think that FF will emerge as a stronger and more youthfully driven party post 2011 and under a new and reformed leadership can again be a serious political machine as opposed to a political party, which it probably never was. A name change would be no harm either.

Biggins wrote:

There was a number of off hand statements made by Fianna Fail politicians on air to interviewers in early November and December saying they were hoping for up to 100,000 to leave in the next four years.

Are you sure? Because while you've linked to opposition members accusing the Government of such 'hopes', though they may have such expectations. I actually haven't heard or read any such 'hopes' from the party itself... so if you could provide that link as opposed to what you did provide?

Liam Byrne

later10 wrote: »

Actually I wouldn't like to see FF wiped out; rather, I would like to see it go through a baptism of fire. I am what I would consider a long term FF voter, although I intend to vote FG if I am in Ireland for the next election.
I think that FF will emerge as a stronger and more youthfully driven party post 2011 and under a new and reformed leadership can again be a serious political machine as opposed to a political party, which it probably never was. A name change would be no harm either.

More pointless optics.

A name change would not be required if they were seen to weed out, object to, and fairly deal with corruption.

later12

Liam Byrne wrote: »

More pointless optics.

A name change would not be required if they were seen to weed out, object to, and fairly deal with corruption.

Perhaps you didn't read the part where I spoke about reform and a baptism of fire first.

Liam Byrne

later10 wrote: »

Perhaps you didn't read the part where I spoke about reform and a baptism of fire first.

I did, and my point is that if that were seen to be done, instead of the disgraceful carry-on of the past 20-odd years, then a name change would be irrelevant.

Of course, there's no need to even have a name given the ridiculous tactics being used by the likes of Willie O'Dea, where there is no party affiliation whatever indicated on his website.

FF must really, really think we are thick as two short planks; and we should return the favour by making them walk said-same planks.

later12

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I did, and my point is that if that were seen to be done, instead of the disgraceful carry-on of the past 20-odd years, then a name change would be irrelevant.

The name change is not a big issue, but lots of businesses and organisations as well as political parties (Cumann na nGaedhael, for example) change names to signify a new departure in their policies or governance and I think such a thing could be useful to FF following on from its reform.

Liam Byrne

later10 wrote: »

The name change is not a big issue, but lots of businesses and organisations as well as political parties (Cumann na nGaedhael, for example) change names to signify a new departure in their policies or governance and I think such a thing could be useful to FF following on from its reform.

Let's just see the reform first, OK ?

They've had a few decades to shake off and deal with the corruption, and they haven't bothered their arses and in fact made it a few billion times worse.

bcmf

later10 wrote: »

A name change would be no harm either.

Lipstick on a pig.

later12

Again, feel free to jump in with populist idioms and ignore the comment about reform coming first.

Liam Byrne

later10 wrote: »

Again, feel free to jump in with populist idioms and ignore the comment about reform coming first.

But when is this reform likely to start ?

And why didn't it start at any stage over the last 20 odd years ?

Why has corruption and self-interest been - and why does it continue to be - condoned and rewarded ?

Claiming that you might close the door now that the horse has quite spectacularly bolted and the stable 100% destroyed, while still hammering ordinary folk and yet lining their own pockets, is not acceptable.

Why not simply break away from the existing rotting corrupt corpse and form a new party that represents what you claim to want ?

later12

Liam Byrne wrote: »

But when is this reform likely to start ?

And why didn't it start at any stage over the last 20 odd years ?

The reform of FF is likely to begin over the summer and further into 2011. I would expect a new front bench to emerge from these reforms, partly through significant electoral losses and of course the inevitable change in leadership with Micheal Martin all but certain to take over.

Remember the last time FF faced into a baptism of fire like the current one was 50 years ago when Sean Lemass took over and many people doubted the future of a party without DeValera. He appointed young and energetic ministers to Government (admittedly among them was CJ Haughey) and brought about a new departure in the FF party. They ended up going from opposition and meltdown in ther 50s to staying in Government until 1973. In my opinion what Lemass did for Fianna Fail in the 1950s is what shall be required of Micheal Martin in 2011.

If he succeeds, by 2012 disillusion with Fine Gael (possibly accelerated if Labour are in power) will cause a surge in support for Fianna Fail, barring a sudden spike in support for a new political entity yet to emerge. The latter is, for now, particularly unlikely.

Why not simply break away from the existing rotting corrupt corpse and form a new party that represents what you claim to want ?

I don't particularly like the narrative you offer, a rotting crumbling corpse is a perfectly fine line to use in descriptive writing but if we want to be realistic here, a party cannot be dismissed in such mortal terms, especially when that party is Fianna Fail and its core ideology is mostly made up of popular sentiment.

cyclopath2001

later10 wrote: »

I don't particularly like the narrative you offer, a rotting crumbling corpse is a perfectly fine line to use in descriptive writing but if we want to be realistic here, a party cannot be dismissed in such mortal terms, especially when that party is Fianna Fail and its core ideology is mostly made up of popular sentiment.

Perhaps a comparison with Count 'Alucard' would be more apt....

PomBear

later10 wrote: »

But they have voted against the bailout and they also moved the writs to bring about the three bye-elections.

I'm not sure that you actually appreciate how little power the non ruling parties have in implementing policy tbh.

Yet other parties managed to bring on by-election atleast and IMF vote brought before the Dáil.

FG didn't, FG did nothing on issues really.