Primetime investigates & The Frontline - Carry on Regardless

Laminations

I'll update this thread with a link to RTE Player. This show while not shocking or surprising is none the less disgusting. Developers transferring assets to wives interspersed with clips of Lenihan denying this was happening and ensuring the tax payers that NAMA would pursue these guys to the ends of the earth. After watching the Panorama show on bankers bonuses earlier on BBC, I really feel like us outsiders we are being danced on.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1220/blog-20december_primetime2010.html

These guys who owe millions --> billions should be stripped of all assets where personal guarantees were made and made work off their debt by providing services to NAMA pro bono and NAMA can reduce their debts while they suffer the indignation of queuing for the dole.

Waiting for the lame excuses being pedalled on Frontline...

Mr.Micro

Laminations wrote: »

I'll update this thread with a link to RTE Player. This show while not shocking or surprising is none the less disgusting. Developers transferring assets to wives interspersed with clips of Lenihan denying this was happening and ensuring the tax payers that NAMA would pursue these guys to the ends of the earth. After watching the Panorama show on bankers bonuses earlier on BBC, I really feel like us outsiders we are being danced on.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1220/blog-20december_primetime2010.html

These guys who owe millions --> billions should be stripped of all assets where personal guarantees were made and made work off their debt by providing services to NAMA pro bono and NAMA can reduce their debts while they suffer the indignation of queuing for the dole.

Waiting for the lame excuses being pedalled on Frontline...

Frontline=Fianna Fail line more like. Nama was put in place to make sure these boys kept their wealth and Ireland will always be on the outside looking in so long as we do nothing.

Laminations

I don't understand why treasury holdings has €1.4bn loans in NAMA as it is profit making internationally and has a good income even just with regard rentals - €50mn a year just from a few state leases

yoshytoshy

This is nothing new and the government knows it. When other people were in court for off shore accounts years ago ,they done the exact same thing.

They think they own the country ,but the banks and buildings are on our land.

liammur

Shocking. Absolutely shocking, Now I always knew this was a bailout, but the level of it is shocking.

Brian Lenihan needs to hang his head in shame. IMF please end NAMA now.

I've lost all confidence in this country.

But again well done to the Prime Time team.

eamo12

I'm sure the RTE elites are just glad that this may distract from their 'stars' cocaine scandal.

Taxi Drivers

Can we stop paying rent to these developers? The sums seem to be vast. That money would go some way to paying down the huge debts we've taken on from them.

Let them sue the State. Bring it on! We have an Attorneys General Office that was well able to defend a case over in Strasbourg this week where the ruling was that human rights were denied. Defending a case where some rent is withheld should be a piece of cake.

liammur

Taxi Drivers wrote: »

Can we stop paying rent to these developers? The sums seem to be vast. That money would go some way to paying down the huge debts we've taken on from them.

Let them sue the State. Bring it on! We have an Attorneys General Office that was well able to defend a case over in Strasbourg this week where the ruling was that denied human rights were denied. Defending a case where some rent is withheld should be a piece of cake.

The point is, the state are hand in glove with these guys, and the FF cronies want to pay them as much as possible. We, as a people need to act without this government.

Mr.Micro

eamo12 wrote: »

I'm sure the RTE elites are just glad that this may distract from their 'stars' cocaine scandal.

IMO RTE have not done their job re journalism. Soft interviews on Ahern, Biffo, Lenny et al are the norm, when the hard questions should have been asked. They even promoted Gerry Ryan as an all round good guy and have now been caught out. Is he typical of the standard of broadcaster at RTE? Just a big club where they all look after each other.

Philistine

Transferring assets to spouse / family to avoid them being potentially taken off you and sold for whatever reason is nothing new. Didn't that butcher Doctor Neary in Co. Louth transfer his assets to his kids following court cases surrounding his malpractice?
All assets transferred to wives etc should be taken and sold immediately.

Shea O'Meara

Mr.Micro wrote: »

IMO RTE have not done their job re journalism. Soft interviews on Ahern, Biffo, Lenny et al are the norm, when the hard questions should have been asked. They even promoted Gerry Ryan as an all round good guy and have now been caught out. Is he typical of the standard of broadcaster at RTE? Just a big club where they all look after each other.

Sure when he did that lose weight show he must have weighed a ton himself, awful choice for a host, but if you're in, you're in. They, (RTE) stated that they didn't follow up on the cocaine issue out of respect for a colleague, which rather than being commendable actually shows that they see themselves as an in-house entity beholding to nobody as regards journalism and the taxpayers who own their family organisation. The only exception, as posted, is to the organ grinders of FFail.

Cocaine use is rampant in Dublin and in RTE. If they did a random drug test of all the top players it would make for interesting, (unbroadcast on RTE) news.

Birdnuts

Berties little conversation with that developer summed up this country - a total mafia state that caters to the elites and golden circles:mad:

Mr.Micro

Off topic but the irony of Ryan hosting the show Operation Transformation and he living life to the excess, drink, food, coke, and whatever else. I lived abroad for many years and came back to live in Ireland and was so disappointed to see the same old nepotism alive and well.

I thought that Frontline had good promise to begin certainly after that dire no triple dire fixed Questions and Answers show but sadly it has gone down IMO. only the other week the show was devoted to a FF love in with the smirking Michael Martin and other FF cronies. That was enough for me. Will RTE ever give Labour, FG, SF ( the Greens do not count as a party) a show each for a love in as a balance?

zig

looking forward to this, gonna catch it on the player, missed it earlier.

ArtSmart

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Off topic but the irony of Ryan hosting the show Operation Transformation and he living life to the excess, drink, food, coke, and whatever else. I lived abroad for many years and came back to live in Ireland and was so disappointed to see the same old nepotism alive and well.

I thought that Frontline had good promise to begin certainly after that dire no triple dire fixed Questions and Answers show but sadly it has gone down IMO. only the other week the show was devoted to a FF love in with the smirking Michael Martin and other FF cronies. That was enough for me. Will RTE ever give Labour, FG, SF ( the Greens do not count as a party) a show each for a love in as a balance?

Actually for it's faults Q & A was not too bad - at least we didnt have to suffer the wisdom of the 'ordinary people of Ireland' as much Bowman gave them little time, thankfully.

The Plank is fine with real political issues , but this including the PPof Ireland is a gimmick to appeal to a wider audience at the expense of coherent argument. still, tis the way a the world now, begorrah.

Idbatterim

can this sham of transferring assest not be done away with? I couldnt give a sh*t about these delusional assh**es sense of whats FAIR, where is justice for society? Ha just heard that statement that one developer reckoned he was worth 1.5 million per annum, and the guy said he gave it 20 seconds consideration and it was dismissed, he should have been laughed at!

EricPraline

Surprisingly good documentary by RTE, possibly one of their best over the last few years. Wonder if the captive audience stuck at home with the snow got to appreciate the gravity of what was shown.

nesf

ArtSmart wrote: »

Actually for it's faults Q & A was not too bad - at least we didnt have to suffer the wisdom of the 'ordinary people of Ireland' as much Bowman gave them little time, thankfully.

Exactly. It's like watching a televised version of "Talk to Joe" half the time. I've just completely stopped watching it, I really don't give a **** about what the man on the street thinks the problem is with the economy because bluntly he doesn't have a bull's notion of what the question means never mind what the answer is. Not that the vast majority of the invited speakers are much better or anything.

mikemac

How do you even get tickets to Frontline

I called the number on two weeks, left all my details on the voicemail and never got a call back

Rejected by RTÉ

Einhard

Mr.Micro wrote: »

IMO RTE have not done their job re journalism. Soft interviews on Ahern, Biffo, Lenny et al are the norm, when the hard questions should have been asked. They even promoted Gerry Ryan as an all round good guy and have now been caught out. Is he typical of the standard of broadcaster at RTE? Just a big club where they all look after each other.

Eh this thread was started to discuss the fine work of an RTE programme exposing the activities of certain developers, and you accuse them of poor journalistic standards? A week after anothe rprogramme in the same series opened up a can of worms for the government re the care of the elderly? You do a fine line in irony at least...

mikemac

I seem to remember a sketch on Brian Cowen a few months back, a pretty cheap shot and no place on a supposedly serious programme. Hardly a FF love in

Scofflaw

Some summary of the program would have been welcome for those who didn't watch it. I see that it has produced a statement from NAMA:

The National Asset Management Agency has repeated that it will pursue developers who transferred assets from their own names to spouses or other family members in an effort to remove them from NAMA's scope.

In a statement issued this morning in response to a Prime Time Investigates programme on RTÉ last night, the agency also said that some transfers would fail to shelter the assets, as the people to whom the assets were transferred were also borrowers in their own names.

The agency also pointed out that in many cases where developers had lifestyles deemed inappropriate in the current circumstances, the assets involved were financed by banks not involved in NAMA.

The NAMA statement said the agency was 'acutely sensitive' to the risk that developers had tried or would try to transfer assets from their own names to spouses or other family members. It said it was pursuing developers to bring such assets back, and would do so in court if developers did not return the assets consensually.

It repeated that in three cases it had been agreed to reverse a combined total of €130m of such transfers.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Tipp Man

Laminations wrote: »

I don't understand why treasury holdings has €1.4bn loans in NAMA as it is profit making internationally and has a good income even just with regard rentals - €50mn a year just from a few state leases

Didn't see most of this program but flicked over for last 15

Correct me if i'm wrong but did they state that Treasury Holdings wasn't paying its loans? As far as i am aware there are some companies who are in NAMA who are still repaying

Isn't that why Paddy whathisface took them to court a few months ago. Despite making repayments on his 1 bn+ loans he was in NAMA which he felt was unnecessary and was bad for his companies reputation

Slydice

It's here: http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1221/nama-business.html#article

On the left hand side of, there are pictures with links under them.
"Prime Time Investigates: NAMA Developers - Part One"
"Prime Time Investigates: NAMA Developers - Part Two"

Just click the pictures or links and a player opens up playing the show

If you can watch youtube videos, these will probably work

ei.sdraob

Ah now

raise your hands those among us here :rolleyes: who kept on claiming that NAMA is the best thing since sliced bread and regurgitating the government line of "the developers will be pursued to the ends of the world"

come on dont be ashamed to admit that your opinion of NAMA was false and that you fell for a lie from the FF/Green govt

it takes a stronger (wo)man to admit their mistake than continue living in denial, or worse continue defending NAMA

Paulzx

There is something wrong when you can owe 1 billion euro, which you are unable to pay back, yet still have access to multi million euro houses, luxury cars, helicopters, racehorses, shopping sprees in Brown Thomas and be receiving millions in rent from the state on properties you cannot afford to pay for.

Irrespective of whatever way the myraid of compnay law and ownership operates it is galling to the normal person to see this.

If i was in the terrible position of losing my home due to owing 150,000 on a mortgage i couldn't pay i think i'd go insane watching that program last night.

It's disgusting..

Laminations

Tipp Man wrote: »

Didn't see most of this program but flicked over for last 15

Correct me if i'm wrong but did they state that Treasury Holdings wasn't paying its loans? As far as i am aware there are some companies who are in NAMA who are still repaying

Isn't that why Paddy whathisface took them to court a few months ago. Despite making repayments on his 1 bn+ loans he was in NAMA which he felt was unnecessary and was bad for his companies reputation

I used to think the best of people too
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/reo-to-miss-euro46m-repayment-as-talks-continue-over-euro2bn-debt-load-2313698.html

REO to miss €4.6m repayment as talks continue over €2bn debt load
Friday August 27 2010
By Emmet Oliver Deputy Business Editor

Real Estate Opportunities (REO), the company controlled by Johnny Ronan's Treasury Holdings, will not make payments to its lenders next week of £3.8m (€4.6m) as talks on its future continue.

The company, which owns the famous Battersea Power Station in London, has debts of £1.7bn (€2bn) with a range of lenders, among them NAMA and the Lloyds Banking group. NAMA is reviewing business plans for REO and Treasury Holdings.

REO said yesterday "significant progress'' had been made towards a financial restructuring, but gave no details. The progress has been made with the holders of the company's various loan notes, but these proposals now have to be broached with other lenders.

Skipped

Next Tuesday REO was due to make a payment to investors who hold the convertible loan notes in the company, with an interest payment due of £3.8m. But this will be skipped as the negotiations continue over its debt load. Plans are also afoot to spin off the Battersea power station into a separate quoted company.

.....(cont'd)

Also see
http://bocktherobber.com/2010/08/developers-mcinerney-and-treasury-holdings-default-irish-taxpayers-pick-up-the-bill

And if all that doesn't disgust you enough, here is a snippet from politics.is which will have the sources

If you read that Phoenix article they claim that Ronan and Barrett were able to charge REO €18m in fees last year alone, via Treasury Holdings, and apparently NAMA were ok with that. But, even more incredibly, they're transferring good Chinese assets from REO into China REO (outside of NAMA's reach I assume) so it appears that they're cherrypicking the good bits for themselves and dumping all the horsesh1te into NAMA.

http://www.politics.ie/economy/135751-phoenix-call-johnny-ronans-guarantees-8.html

ei.sdraob

so it appears that they're cherrypicking the good bits for themselves and dumping all the horsesh1te into NAMA.

Ugh oh how many people right now have that sickening "i told you so" feeling

This is exactly what me and others here where arguing about NAMA for so long, and now it turns out to be worse than we could have imagined

arghgghghghgh

Citizen_Cutback

The only upside that I can see with developers transferring properties to their spouses is that their development companies will be more likely to go-under if these are unencumbered properties.

Presumably a lot of these properties are mortgaged and are in negative equity which would imply that the banks will foreclose on them in future if loans are not being serviced.

Are these developers lining their pockets by not paying the mortgages on these properties in the interim?

Dublin_Gunner

It shouldn't be NAMA chasing these developers anyway, it should be the CAB.

Slydice

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

It shouldn't be NAMA chasing these developers anyway, it should be the CAB.

chasing them away? there's probably something way better that we could think of

evolve

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

It shouldn't be NAMA chasing these developers anyway, it should be the CAB.

agree wholeheartedly but this would take governance not cronyism :mad:........so not in the foreseeable future so

Laminations

'NAMA will pursue developers'

Will is a funny word that contains some degree of delay and uncertainty
Is this the same way we were told in 2009 that judges would volunteer pay cuts

Then when it emerged later that year that only 19 of the 148 had volunteered we were told to relax - that judges will volunteer by the end of the year...

And more than a year later?
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/one-in-five-judges-yet-to-volunteer-for-pay-cut-2392431.html

UP to a fifth of the judiciary are yet to offer up a voluntary pay reduction this weekend, more than 18 months after the idea was first mooted, the Sunday Independent has learned

Our concerns are constantly beingkicked down the road by this word 'will'. All of these things we are told that will happen, when can we see them start to happen?

Liam Byrne

I wish I were shocked, stunned and outraged, but I'm not. We are talking FF, after all, and Bertie's whispered-but-subtitled exchange summed it all up.

Of course, if anyone had half a brain the would offset the amounts that those developers owe us against the rent that we're paying them.

But no, easier to screw the "little people". People who would be happy to work, earn and live on €2,000 or €3,000 a month if only the economy allowed for it.

Dempo1

Just caught up with this program on rte player. Whilst nothing in it surprised me, these developers have some neck all the same. The biggest Irony had to be these ****ers owning and leasing social welfare offices, primarily utilized by all of their former employee's left high and dry. I could not help but notice Bertie's reunion at the opening of the convention center with the biggest buffoon of all, Johnny Rohan!

I am amazed no one in a position to do something failed to predict or see developers transferring assets to their loving wives. Surely legislation could have been instigated to stop this Bollixing around! this said all these mansions are not worth squat now, Jesus the €57 million house in Dublin looks like its falling apart!

Bottle_of_Smoke

Jesus. Compares to Zimbabwe type stuff. Wonder will there be a public backlash. We still haven't had riots imho. Even the stuff that happens at parades in the north is more riot like than the protests we've had. Perhaps this is the kind of thing that will set people off.

BeeDI

Ah, shure the prime time sleuths are great alltogether, What with their candid camera work, catching a few overweight, busted developers coming out of Brown Thomas laden down with expensive looking bags and so on.
Wouldn't find them prime time sleuths catching their buddy cokeheads in RTE and the geneeral media.
No apologis for the NAMA'ites, but the double standards of the media sleuths, makes me wanna puke!
They have exposed the Church, exposed the Guards, exposed the Bankers, exposed the politicians, exposed the HSE, exposed .......... the whole world, but did diddly squat to expose their own dodo ............. bah humbug :mad::mad:

EricPraline

NAMA have responded with the usual rote lines. Simply rehashes of BL infamous comment about pursuing developers to the ends of the earth.

One of many interesting points made was that the solicitors advising NAMA also act for Gerry Gannon. No wonder the public has little faith in NAMA's ability to deal effectively with vested interests.

transylman

Confirmation of what we already knew, NAMA is a scam to bail out the developers. In fact the entire state appears to be a scam which exists solely for the benefit of the bankers, developers, and FF. If you are not in one of these groups then you are one of the suckers allowing them to maintain their lifestyles.

And Cowen wonders why people aren't more positive about fixing the country.
:mad:

Elevator

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

It shouldn't be NAMA chasing these developers anyway, it should be the CAB.

this has been the most outstanding statement I've read in 2/3 years concerning this whole mess!!

here fcuking here )

Elevator

transylman wrote: »

Confirmation of what we already knew, NAMA is a scam to bail out the developers. In fact the entire state appears to be a scam which exists solely for the benefit of the bankers, developers, and FF. If you are not in one of these groups then you are one of the suckers allowing them to maintain their lifestyles.

And Cowen wonders why people aren't more positive about fixing the country.
:mad:

I think you'll find that it's actually the whole world which exists for bankers now!!

Einhard

evolve wrote: »

agree wholeheartedly but this would take governance not cronyism :mad:........so not in the foreseeable future so

No, it would take laws being broken. Despite what some people might wish around here, prosecuting for deeds which weren't criminal offences when they were committed isn't a road we want to go down.

Einhard

BeeDI wrote: »

Ah, shure the prime time sleuths are great alltogether, What with their candid camera work, catching a few overweight, busted developers coming out of Brown Thomas laden down with expensive looking bags and so on.
Wouldn't find them prime time sleuths catching their buddy cokeheads in RTE and the geneeral media.
No apologis for the NAMA'ites, but the double standards of the media sleuths, makes me wanna puke!
They have exposed the Church, exposed the Guards, exposed the Bankers, exposed the politicians, exposed the HSE, exposed .......... the whole world, but did diddly squat to expose their own dodo ............. bah humbug :mad::mad:

Jesus Christ, get a bit of perspective man!! In light of the church buggering our children for years, the guards buggering the McBrearty's for years, and the banks and FF buggering the economy for years to come, who really goves a flying fook about what Gerry Ryan shovels up his nose in his spare time?! Seriously? You want gossip and prurient tittle tattle, buy Hello magazine or something, and don't be complaining that, after stellar work in exposing corruption and incompetence in official Ireland, Prime Time didn't turn its attention to Gerry Ryan's coke habit.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Dempo1

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Jezz there's a wonderful thought, it would be hillarious.

Bottle_of_Smoke

BeeDI wrote: »

Ah, shure the prime time sleuths are great alltogether, What with their candid camera work, catching a few overweight, busted developers coming out of Brown Thomas laden down with expensive looking bags and so on.
Wouldn't find them prime time sleuths catching their buddy cokeheads in RTE and the geneeral media.
No apologis for the NAMA'ites, but the double standards of the media sleuths, makes me wanna puke!
They have exposed the Church, exposed the Guards, exposed the Bankers, exposed the politicians, exposed the HSE, exposed .......... the whole world, but did diddly squat to expose their own dodo ............. bah humbug :mad::mad:

Get real. It is not their responsibility to police their staff for drug use.

RTE staff using cocaine hasn't cost the taxpayers billions. To me there is no difference to them getting drunk or using cocaine it is only a problem of Gerry Ryan types and their families. And I don't hear people complaining about RTE or government staff drinking.

So quite frankly I couldn't give a toss about the non issue that a celebrity takes cocaine.

urbanachiever1

Exactly. Who is surprised and who gives a **** if some 'celebrities' are taking coke. Nothing to do with this thread!

It's a real eye-opener, if one were needed at this stage, when Richard (Treasury Holdings) Barret's comment to Bertie ie. "Keep pulling for us anyway".
The government pays 50m a year in rent to these guys, no doubt at pre-bust set levels.

COYW

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That was the first thing that came to my mind. Their male counterpart cant really contest. If I was a wife who obtained assets, I would be popping on my gucci snow boots and walking off with the money.

Bottle_of_Smoke

urbanachiever1 wrote: »

Exactly. Who is surprised and who gives a **** if some 'celebrities' are taking coke. Nothing to do with this thread!

Absolutely. Very nice timing the 'coke scandal' took for the government

Bottle_of_Smoke

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

great so we only get half of what we're paying for in a minority of cases. Or maybe even not if those divorced developers take off to a non-extraditial territory

Paulzx

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Ask Tiger Woods:D


Looking at it from the other direction i.e. the developers concerned have a stable relationship with their wives and the marriages are solid. I presume that down the road when Nama etc. is all over and the developers have discharged their responsibilites via bankruptcy and have no one else chasing them for money, these assets could easily be transferred back into their names without repurcussions.