Non-Religious secondary schools

lil'one

Hey, i'm hoping someone can help me, i'm looking for a secondary school for my 14yr old step-daughter. She isn't catholic and all i seem to be able to find is catholic schools. Now it wouldn't matter if there was a religious element really but i'm presuming she must be a catholic to be accepted as a student?! I just don't know!

Dan_Solo

From a boys school perspective, I know Muslims who have been to St Mary's and Protestants' who went to St Joseph's. I don't think there's any official exclusion in secondary schools on religious grounds, though if you haven't been through the correct "feeder" primary it can be tougher to get in.

Cheshire Cat

You won't have a problem, we aren't Catholics either and got a place in both primary and secondary schools.
Go and have a look at the different schools, see if you like them and if they have a place in the year you need.
Might be a bigger problem to match subjects if she is changing from another secondary school.

Good luck!

CC

PomBear

I went to Marys, i know people who went to all other schools, none of which thought the denomination was ever an issue, bit of a ill informed opinion if you think they are like that

lil'one

PomBear wrote: »

I went to Marys, i know people who went to all other schools, none of which thought the denomination was ever an issue, bit of a ill informed opinion if you think they are like that

hence why i am asking and said 'i don't know'

Seaneh

All catholic schools in Ireland accept people from any or no religious background.

There are Muslims, Anglicans, Hindu's and just about everything else in most of the schools in Galway at this stage.
She won't have to sit the religious education classes either if you and your wife don't want her to.

lil'one

Thank you for your replies, have made a couple of calls so fingers crossed we can find somewhere after christmas ;-)

Genuine question - is it not illegal to refuse someone from entry to a school based on their religion? Surely that is discrimination. While some schools are catholic, I doubt if many of those even have proper religion classes. Religion generally isn't a problem in schools, especially recently with the influx of non-nationals. I assume that if you let the principal of the school know, they may let you skip catholic activities.

LadyMayBelle

I wasn't reared Catholic and just ended up in Catholic schools as that's where my friends went. Didn't matter. Got study/computer/free class during religion.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Genuine question - is it not illegal to refuse someone from entry to a school based on their religion? Surely that is discrimination. While some schools are catholic, I doubt if many of those even have proper religion classes. Religion generally isn't a problem in schools, especially recently with the influx of non-nationals. I assume that if you let the principal of the school know, they may let you skip catholic activities.

No - schools can protect their ethos and use religion in their selection criteria.

There was a recent case about a teacher being turned down for a job for being COI but I can't find it handy.

We do not live in a secular, pluralistic society.

gaeilgegrinds1

If it's in the ethos it's not illegal. Remember the Pobalscoil Daingean case based on language! That didn't end so well for the student. I'll PM you something interesting.

Mrs OBumble

Deleted User wrote: »

We do not live in a secular, pluralistic society.

And in fairness, the Irish people haven't exactly invested capital in developing a network of schools that the state owns. Hell - they only made secondary school compulsory in 1967! Before that, around 30% didn't even go.

OP, I think that the only non-religious secondary school in Galway is the Irish-language one. I suspect that you'll run into more problems with schools not having places than with religion being an issue.

Simarillion

You shouldn't have any issues at all with the secondary schools in Galway.I don't think any of them push a particularly Catholic ethos on students.
I went to St. Josephs (The Bish) and I wasn't Catholic, and there were Muslims and Sikhs in my year, and I imagine most other schools are similar.

dafunk

I was reared an athiest and during my school years attended a protestant, catholic and Jewish school. Following my experience in the catholic school I woul never ever send a child of mine to one. The bullying and abuse that was forced upon me by both students and staff still gives me nightmares to this day. My parents request for me to be excluded from religious education was just ammunition for them. I'm sure not all catholic schools are like this and I would hope these days that people are more open minded but it's just my two cents worth.

In my mind religious education should be exclusively at home and not brought into our schools.

gaeilgegrinds1

dafunk, just to point out. I'm Catholic but private about it. I believe it is my personal business. However, in my first job teaching I was MADE teach a child who was atheist carols etc as Gaeilge. It was really pushed on the poor child and when the parents came in I was unable to really do much other than say I felt perhaps the school was not the most open place I had worked. I've raised a few issues on the teaching thread here that have happened me lately and genuinely I'd be loathe to suggest any of the religious schools in Galway for a student not religious. I know how friends of mine were treated and have seen how students in schools I have taught in were treated. Just my opinion but I've worked in a fair few schools in Galway and it is their right to stick by their ethos. Parents should strongly consider this before sending their children to a religious school.

dafunk

gaeilgegrinds1 wrote: »

dafunk, just to point out. I'm Catholic but private about it. I believe it is my personal business. However, in my first job teaching I was MADE teach a child who was atheist carols etc as Gaeilge. It was really pushed on the poor child and when the parents came in I was unable to really do much other than say I felt perhaps the school was not the most open place I had worked. I've raised a few issues on the teaching thread here that have happened me lately and genuinely I'd be loathe to suggest any of the religious schools in Galway for a student not religious. I know how friends of mine were treated and have seen how students in schools I have taught in were treated. Just my opinion but I've worked in a fair few schools in Galway and it is their right to stick by their ethos. Parents should strongly consider this before sending their children to a religious school.

Schools are perfectly within their rights to be religious, but I think that people should be perfectly within their rights to have schools in their areas that are not religious and unfortunately this isn't the case in Ireland.

Greaney

I think this thread is leading to the inevitable point....

We Irish and our Government didn't build schools. We left it up to religious orders to do the job because it was easier. And that's why things are the way they are. We still don't build schools (what's with all the prefabs in our schools, are the students going to shrink in numbers or disappear any minuet!!!???). We wait for things to get to a crisis point before we shift our bums into gear.

Another point. I'm a commited Christian, not Catholic. I told the primary school my son attended this. I said, we're Presbyterian, the teacher looked flustered as if she wasn't sure what to do with him. I said "Sure it's grand, he does bible stories and learns the 'Our Father' too. My son left that school knowing the 'Hail Mary' in Irish, but not the 'Our Father'. It's not the worst thing in the world but it just goes to show you how ignorant Catholics are of other religions. I should know..... I used to be Catholic:o

On saying that, I notice some folk discover 'Religion' if it means their kid gets into a school with a good reputation.

mrsweebri

wouldn't it be great if the Educate Together crowd could start some secondary schools?

Sponge Bob

Educate Together has every right to set up 'their own' secondary schools but as a non existant secondary school has no principal or parents the FIRST requirement is for the parents to come together to found the school....even if they have to run it in an empty office in Parkmore for the first year and pay all the salaries. Thereafter it becomes 'recogised' and salaries are paid by the taxpayer.

I say 'their own' because the actual 'owner' of a school is one of the most complex aspects of setting up a school. If owned by a catholic body they can enforce a catholic ethos.

The state only owns 3 primary schools in the whole country and no secondary schools ....save where it owns Vocational schools albeit by proxy.

It is much cheaper for the state to run secondary schools than it is to run vocational schools and that is the reason why they have happily run with this odd form of complete privatisation. Secondaries cost the taxpayer between 25% and 33% less per secondary level pupil than the Vocational Techs do.

gaeilgegrinds1

Educate Together is a fine idea once parents understand the, 'together,' bit. I know some of the schools I've been in have found it very hard to get parents involved at all, granted they weren't Educate Together but still! There are options in Galway though, you just might need to drive that bit further or put up with a school where not everyone drives a 2010 4x4, most sacrifice their beliefs for that though from what I've seen. It's a hugely emotive issue in some schools though and I'm delighted to no longer teach in a religious school even though I am religious myself.

Sponge Bob

No set of Galway parents ever set up a Secondary school that reflected their beliefs, they always relied on the Religious or the State to do it for them. There is a sign that this may change, albeit out in Claregalway.

However parents have been involved in setting up ET and Gaelscoileanna in Galway and for many years. Once the complexities of setup and running it for the first few years are resolved then the school becomes pretty much a school like any other.

There is a very good page on the 'ownership' issue here. Once a group gets its head around that oddity then the rest of the process of setting up a secondary school is straightforward from the minute all the TDs promise their undying support ...as they all will The owners appoint most of the Board of Management to run this school according to their principles.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/primary_and_post_primary_education/going_to_primary_school/ownership_of_primary_schools.html

This 'new model' patronage is interesting. Patronage = Control of Principles and sometimes Patronage = Ownership or Partial Ownership + Control of Principles

http://www.education.ie/robots/view.jsp?pcategory=10861&language=EN&ecategory=41296&link=link001&doc=34229

Galwaymother

Hi!
That was one of my big problems last year, and as a teacher I knew exactly how things work in Secondary schools. I put my daughter in Enda's after a lot of thought and consultation, and so far, so good, the Catholic ethos is so light there, there are no prayers at the start of day, no difficulty for entrance which is on a lottery system, so it's not dependent on feeder school only. She did not go to the religious retreat, and was one of many not to go. She studies during religion class, and is under no pressure at all. I highly recommend it, at the moment anyway!
And there is such a beautiful diversity in the school...
Good luck with it, it's not an easy decision to take.

Mrs OBumble

Greaney wrote: »

We Irish and our Government didn't build schools. We left it up to religious orders to do the job because it was easier. And that's why things are the way they are. We still don't build schools

+ 1 million.

The religious orders did some dreadful things, and I don't for one minute forgive the unforgivable.

But for all that, they did educate people when no one else did.

By developed world standards, the Irish government's almost total lack of investment in educational infrastructure is nothing short of a national disgrace.

Greaney wrote: »

...My son left that school knowing the 'Hail Mary' in Irish, but not the 'Our Father'. It's not the worst thing in the world but it just goes to show you how ignorant Catholics are of other religions. I should know..... I used to be Catholic:o

I might get in trouble for saying this, but what the heck:

I think that for the vast majority of Irish people, Catholicism isn't actually a religious belief. It's just a shared set of cultural norms. They're happy enough for the holy-joes to blather on about the god-stuff, just so long as mass doesn't take any more than 35 minutes, and they're not asked to bother their minds thinking about the morality of alcohol abuse, racism or economic misdeeds, and provided there's a priest around to act as MC at baptisms, weddings and funerals (all the big family drinking occasions).

They're going to get a mightly shock as the number of priests drops: it's not going to be long before that convenient MC just isn't there. But are ye doing anything about it? Are there courses in Celebrant Studies in any of the IT's? Are funeral directors building places where non-religious funerals can be held? Not likely.

/rant.

And to bring this back on the topic: I don't think it's the religious belief or ethos that makes schools difficult places for some kids. It the same simple bullying and picking on the outsiders that would happen in a school of any creed, or none.

Seaneh

dafunk wrote: »

but I think that people should be perfectly within their rights to have schools in their areas that are not religious and unfortunately this isn't the case in Ireland.

They are...
All you ahve to do is set up an educate together type group and apply for funding. If there are enough people who genuinely want the service it will be provided, just as they have been in several areas around the country already.


Funnily enough, the Catholic church encourages this, not opposes it, as a lot of people seem to try and argue.

inisboffin

JustMary wrote: »

+ 1 million.


I think that for the vast majority of Irish people, Catholicism isn't actually a religious belief. It's just a shared set of cultural norms. They're happy
enough for the holy-joes to blather on about the god-stuff, just so long as
mass doesn't take any more than 35 minutes, and they're not asked to bother
their minds thinking about the morality of alcohol abuse, racism or economic misdeeds, and provided there's a priest around to act as MC at baptisms, weddings and funerals (all the big family drinking occasions).

Not disagreeing with your point, but think 'vast majority' is off the mark.

Madame Razz

inisboffin wrote: »

Not disagreeing with your point, but think 'vast majority' is off the mark.

Very off the mark.

Mrs OBumble

Madame Razz wrote: »

Very off the mark.

I guess it depends who you know.

Even the folks who I've met who are very individually pious have only a limited grasp of Catholic doctrine. Overall, my observations very much line up with the bishop of Dublin's talk at Rimini.

39steps

Hi there,
Good post. There are no non-denominational second-level schools in Galway. However, I attended Dominican College, Taylor's Hill (girls) in 1970s and Muslim and C of I girls could go to Library during RE classes. No-one was forced to participate.

My own nieces and nephews attend Taylors and The Bish (boys) now and both have atheists, sikhs, hindus, muslims and C of I in their classes. None participate in RE classes and can do homework during lessons or go to Library.

Hardest part is getting into Galway schools, RE least bit!

39steps

moonflower

39steps wrote: »

Hi there,
Good post. There are no non-denominational second-level schools in Galway. However, I attended Dominican College, Taylor's Hill (girls) in 1970s and Muslim and C of I girls could go to Library during RE classes. No-one was forced to participate.

My own nieces and nephews attend Taylors and The Bish (boys) now and both have atheists, sikhs, hindus, muslims and C of I in their classes. None participate in RE classes and can do homework during lessons or go to Library.

Hardest part is getting into Galway schools, RE least bit!

39steps

I went to Taylor's, until quite recently. Getting out of the RE class was fine, but only if the student was foreign. Most of the girls who were Irish were made stay in the class, no matter how much they protested, but most of the foreign girls were put into a study class, even the ones who were in fact catholic. It was very, very weird.

Meteoric

I went to Taylors in the late 80's early 90's and any students not Catholic did not have to attend RE at that stage. Strange that it's changed
At that stage I did not perceive any bullying against the non-Catholics, most of the girls were non-practising Catholics anyway, though I would accept that there was if one of the girls said there was, I just never saw it

seriouslysweet

What Moonflower said is true in most religious schools in Galway I've heard of. If you, 'look,' or, 'sound,' foreign you get out of R.E. Otherwise you're made do it. I don't attend a religious school for that very reason. I'm private about that type of thing.

Fionn MacCool

I wouldn't have thought you'd have to be religious to attend a religious school, in fact I'm sure they'd be delighted with the opportunity to indoctrinate/brain-wash a young mind.

Greaney

JustMary wrote: »

+ 1 million.
The religious orders did some dreadful things, and I don't for one minute forgive the unforgivable.

But for all that, they did educate people when no one else did.

I think that for the vast majority of Irish people, Catholicism isn't actually a religious belief. It's just a shared set of cultural norms. They're happy enough for the holy-joes to blather on about the god-stuff, just so long as mass doesn't take any more than 35 minutes, and they're not asked to bother their minds thinking about the morality of alcohol abuse, racism or economic misdeeds, and provided there's a priest around to act as MC at baptisms, weddings and funerals (all the big family drinking occasions).

They're going to get a mightly shock as the number of priests drops: it's not going to be long before that convenient MC just isn't there. But are ye doing anything about it? Are there courses in Celebrant Studies in any of the IT's? Are funeral directors building places where non-religious funerals can be held? Not likely.

I totally agree with you Just Mary. I have often said that Catholicism is cultural as opposed to Spiritual to most Irish folk. Other examples of this would be...

The bride who insists on a church wedding but doesn't attend so the couple jump through hoops to 'prove' their Catholic to a sceptical priest.

The oul wans on the Joe Duffy show going on about the Holy Communion being 'about the kids' when the Priests express concern regarding the money spent on dresses etc. Personally, I thought it was about God... but that's just me

Social welfare paying holy communion and confermation grants.

Sorry for getting off the point. I still know a few genuine, moral, earnest, practicing Catholics who decided to send their kids to an Educate together school to teach their children tolerance. One family were very involved in the commitees etc. They drifted away though when they thought that Christianity was getting knocked a lot (contraversy over having a nativity play but still being expected to celebrate the festival of light, which they were fine about). It's all about balance and we have to share this planet with folk we dont' agree with..... now there's the challange.

tiny_d

Can someone please explain to me what a Catholic 'ethos' actually is? To me, it seems like the usual wishy-washy fudge because if the Catholic schools just plain excluded all non-baptised Catholics, there would be uproar, possible legal challenges and presumably the government would have to actually do something about the mess that is the management of our school system. But by using the wooly notion of 'ethos' the Church can remain in control despite the ever dwindling numbers of real Catholics.

I'm interested because, for example, can an atheist teacher get a job in a Catholic school? Or can the 'ethos clause' allow the school to reject them out of hand? Or can an atheist still sign up to the Catholic ethos without actually being a Catholic? Answers in no more than 50 words please ....

tiny_d

tiny_d wrote: »

I'm interested because, for example, can an atheist teacher get a job in a Catholic school? Or can the 'ethos clause' allow the school to reject them out of hand? Or can an atheist still sign up to the Catholic ethos without actually being a Catholic? Answers in no more than 50 words please ....

Yes - I think religion can be a factor in recruitment.

Ethos: I was shown pictures of aborted babies in religion class when I was about 16 or 17.

gaeilgegrinds1

Yes, many people I know lied about religion to get their chosen jobs. I know my first job would have found a, 'reason,' there would not have been hours for me when I had my baby out of wedlock. Happened another lady there when I was there.
Ethos:The teachings of the school.