The Rules.

deise go deo

I was wondering where the general rules for boards are to be found. I have heard that there are a specific set of rules that apply to boards in general, so that even if something is not mentioned specifically in a forum charter, you can still get in trouble for braking the general boards rules.

So where are they as I cant seam to find them.

The specific rule I am interested in is the one that says Boards is an English language forum and that as such Irish is not allowed outside the specific forums that cater for it.

Tom Dunne

Some rules are based on common sense and do not specifically have to be written down to be applied.

The general language of discourse on this site is English, the vast majority of users do not speak Irish, therefore applying common sense says that the language is not acceptable outside specific forums.

deise go deo

Tom Dunne wrote: »

Some rules are based on common sense and do not specifically have to be written down to be applied.

The general language of discourse on this site is English, the vast majority of users do not speak Irish, therefore applying common sense says that the language is not acceptable outside specific forums.

So, if the the thread was specifically about the Irish language, would posting in Irish be acceptable? As long as it wasent used 'to be a dick' of course

Zaph

deise go deo, I've already explained this to you in great detail in the Forum Request forum. If a post is in Irish, or any other language for that matter, an English translation is expected. Whether or not that's explicitly written anywhere is irrelevant, that is the expected site norm because the vast majority of posters do not have a sufficient level of Irish (or Polish/Russian/Swahili/whatever). More importantly, relatively few mods would have a sufficiently high enough standard of Irish to moderate a thread effectively. So while you're free to post as Gaeilge to your heart's content in the Teach na nGealt and Gaeilge forums, doing so elsewhere is only permitted with an English translation.

deise go deo

Zaph wrote: »

deise go deo, I've already explained this to you in great detail in the Forum Request forum. If a post is in Irish, or any other language for that matter, an English translation is expected. Whether or not that's explicitly written anywhere is irrelevant, that is the expected site norm because the vast majority of posters do not have a sufficient level of Irish (or Polish/Russian/Swahili/whatever). More importantly, relatively few mods would have a sufficiently high enough standard of Irish to moderate a thread effectively. So while you're free to post as Gaeilge to your heart's content in the Teach na nGealt and Gaeilge forums, doing so elsewhere is only permitted with an English translation.

I can understand that there is an issue of moderation, But if there was a forum that had a moderator already who had a high enough standard of Irish, would posts in Irish be acceptable?

Zaph

deise go deo wrote: »

I can understand that there is an issue of moderation, But if there was a forum that had a moderator already who had a high enough standard of Irish, would posts in Irish be acceptable?

Yes they would, as long as there is an English translation supplied. I really can't make it any clearer than that for you.

deise go deo

Zaph wrote: »

Yes they would, as long as there is an English translation supplied. I really can't make it any clearer than that for you.

I mean if there was already a mod with a high standard of Irish in a forum, would Irish be acceptable without a translation?

Zaph

Your question has been answered several times at this stage, but if you really need a one word answer to understand what you've repeatedly been told, then the answer is no.

deise go deo

Zaph wrote: »

Your question has been answered several times at this stage, but if you really need a one word answer to understand what you've repeatedly been told, then the answer is no.

So even in a forum that has an existing moderator with a high enough standard of Irish to moderate Irish posts, Irish is still unacceptable?
Can you tell me why, as to me it seams unnecessarily restrictive.

Zaph

It is not unnecessarily restrictive, in fact it makes the site more inclusive because everyone here speaks English, but not everyone speaks Irish or whatever other language you care to name. If you don't like that then nobody is compelling you to use the site, but while you continue to do so you must post in English, or at the very least provide a translation in English. I've explained the reasoning to you over and over, so I really am at a loss to understand why you keep pushing this issue.

deise go deo

Zaph wrote: »

It is not unnecessarily restrictive, in fact it makes the site more inclusive because everyone here speaks English, but not everyone speaks Irish or whatever other language you care to name. If you don't like that then nobody is compelling you to use the site, but while you continue to do so you must post in English, or at the very least provide a translation in English. I've explained the reasoning to you over and over, so I really am at a loss to understand why you keep pushing this issue.

I disagree that only permitting one language is more inclusive. The state recognizes Irish speakers right to use their language, I think its unfortunate that this site is unwilling to facilitate the same in cases where there are no practical reason(Which I accept moderation as being) to prevent it.
I was told that the basis of the rule on Irish is common sense, now, because I have seen what I am proposing work quite well on this site then I dont think viewing Irish posts as unacceptable is 'common sense'.

The Reason that I am bringing up the issue is that I would like it to change and its very unlikely to change if there is no one looking for change.

Zaph

deise go deo wrote: »

The Reason that I am bringing up the issue is that I would like it to change and its very unlikely to change if there is no one looking for change.

Look, I'm going to make this simple for you to save both of us a lot of grief here. Forget about things being "not very unlikely to change" - this will NOT be changing.

That's it, end of story, I will not be continuing this discussion any further. I've tried to be as polite and patient with you as I could, but you just won't accept any answer you're given. There's nothing more I can do for you. Just because you'd like things to change doesn't mean that we will be accommodating you. We'd love to accommodate everyone's requests for the site, but it attracts around 2 million visitors a month, so that just isn't feasible. It's clear that your definition of common sense differs from ours, but that's life I'm afraid.

Darragh

Just to come in on this on a slightly different way.

The main reason we don't do this is a basic legal and site-protection one.

We - the people who run Boards.ie - are legally responsible for everything that happens on the site. Now, we can put in our terms (and it's there) that you own your posts, you are legally responsible for your posts and all the content there-on, that you indemnify us in case of legal problems and all that, but ultimately it still is something we have to take into consideration every single day.

I have a little Irish, but not enough to know if something reported to me as Gaeilge is defamatory, illegal or unlawful. I can't make that judgement because it's not in my ability.

So if we had a forum that was entirely in Irish, we would have to have a member of staff that was fluent in Irish, an admin that the moderator could work with who was fluent in Irish and to hire a solicitor/barrister who was fluent in Irish so that we could be sure that we were, at all times, protecting readers, contributors, members and those being talked about in the forum.

Remember, mods aren't just there for the laugh. They're there to help the forum stay spam free, stay trouble free and to be a great resource for members and readers.

It's difficult enough in English. We'd *love* to have it in Irish but it's just realistically not feasible.

Thanks for the idea but I believe, as Zaph does, that the question is answered.

Darragh
Boards.ie Communications Manager

deise go deo

Darragh wrote: »

Just to come in on this on a slightly different way.

The main reason we don't do this is a basic legal and site-protection one.

We - the people who run Boards.ie - are legally responsible for everything that happens on the site. Now, we can put in our terms (and it's there) that you own your posts, you are legally responsible for your posts and all the content there-on, that you indemnify us in case of legal problems and all that, but ultimately it still is something we have to take into consideration every single day.

I can see that there is an issue regarding the moderation of posts in Irish, that is why My question was specifically about forum that have a moderator with a high enough standard of Irish to mod posts in Irish.

I have a little Irish, but not enough to know if something reported to me as Gaeilge is defamatory, illegal or unlawful. I can't make that judgement because it's not in my ability.

So if we had a forum that was entirely in Irish, we would have to have a member of staff that was fluent in Irish, an admin that the moderator could work with who was fluent in Irish and to hire a solicitor/barrister who was fluent in Irish so that we could be sure that we were, at all times, protecting readers, contributors, members and those being talked about in the forum.

If you had a forum that was entirly in Irish?
You do have a forum entirely in Irish -Teach na nGealt

My suggestion was for posts in forums other than this to be allowed in Irish only if there was an existing moderator who had enough Irish to moderate such posts.

Remember, mods aren't just there for the laugh. They're there to help the forum stay spam free, stay trouble free and to be a great resource for members and readers.

It's difficult enough in English. We'd *love* to have it in Irish but it's just realistically not feasible.

Thanks for the idea but I believe, as Zaph does, that the question is answered.

Darragh
Boards.ie Communications Manager

Posts in Irish are already made on the site in Irish only, In both the Teach na nGealt and Gaeilge forums. Is there a reason that I am missing that the system that is in place to deal with them could not be applied to posts in Irish made in other forums?

Thanks for your time on this.:)

Darragh

Ah, well caught on that forum. It had escaped my memory. It's a fair point though, one we'll need to look at. I don't ever recall seeing trouble from that forum, but if we had trouble, it *would* have to be closed for the reasons I've outlined.

I don't understand why there would be posts in other forums as Gaeilge though. Why would someone post in a mainly English-language forum in Irish? Particularly if the vast majority of participants couldn't understand?

Is there a reason that I am missing that the system that is in place to deal with them could not be applied to posts in Irish made in other forums?

The main reason is resource. All our moderators are volunteers. I can't expect anyone to go hunting for Irish posts in forums so they can make sure they're okay. It's easier - and makes more sense - to have them all in the one place, no?

deise go deo

Darragh wrote: »

Ah, well caught on that forum. It had escaped my memory. It's a fair point though, one we'll need to look at. I don't ever recall seeing trouble from that forum.

I don't understand why there would be posts in other forums as Gaeilge though. Why would someone post in a mainly English-language forum in Irish? Particularly if the vast majority of participants couldn't understand?



The main reason is resource. All our moderators are volunteers. I can't expect anyone to go hunting for Irish posts in forums so they can make sure they're okay. It's easier - and makes more sense - to have them all in the one place, no?

Well that can be answered quite easily, People who have Irish tend to want to use it. It already is used informally beyond the Teach na nGealt and the Gaeilge forum. RaN Hosted(I know there are different rules for them) forum has two threads, one on and the other in Irish.
There is also an Irish thread in C&H, as there are mods in these places that have Irish and can mod the Irish posts then there hasent been a problem.

There are often threads in politics and AH about the Irish language. Irish posts come up now and again in these threads as is, Normally they are let slide or a warning is given. I am suggesting that posts like this be allowed in cases where there is a mod to cover them.

Now, I fully understand that ye have to cover your ass in terms of the legal implications of what has been posted on your site, but in forums that have a mod with enough Irish to properly mod posts in Irish then I dont think there is any greater risk to allowing Irish posts than there is already.

As I have pointed out before, In the case of posts in Irish with a translation, you are trusting the poster to not say something illegal in Irish and inoffensive in the translation they provide.

Darragh

I can see where you're coming from but realistically it's just easier for everyone if, when someone posts as Gaeilge in what has been a predominantly English language thread, a translation is provided.

Almost a tl;dr - unless a moderator is happy to post that they are monitoring the thread and are happy to have the discussion in both languages.

There is no effort here to stifle either the Irish language or discussion here on Boards.ie. This is simply a matter of the resource we have and our wide membership base.

If you - or the others reading this thread - have any suggestions on how we can make this work to everyone's benefit and satisfaction while remaining within our resource and guidelines, I'm happy to hear them.

deise go deo

Darragh wrote: »

I can see where you're coming from but realistically it's just easier for everyone if, when someone posts as Gaeilge in what has been a predominantly English language thread, a translation is provided.

Almost a tl;dr - unless a moderator is happy to post that they are monitoring the thread and are happy to have the discussion in both languages.

There is no effort here to stifle either the Irish language or discussion here on Boards.ie. This is simply a matter of the resource we have and our wide membership base.

If you - or the others reading this thread - have any suggestions on how we can make this work to everyone's benefit and satisfaction while remaining within our resource and guidelines, I'm happy to hear them.

Well first off, I would like to say that I have never tought there was any intention to stifle the Irish language.

On the issue of resources,

My suggestion for allowing Posts in Irish relates to forums that already have a moderator with enough Irish to be able to deal with them effectively, I dont think it would be necessary for every Irish post to be read by the moderators, In the same way that not every post in English is read now. The main thing is that there is a mod there who is able to deal with a problem should one arise.

In this case, While there is a risk that something said in Irish that is unacceptable may go unnoticed by the mod, the same is true of English posts, That is what the report post button is for. I would say that it is very much in the interest of Posters who have Irish to report such a post because it would threaten their being allowed to post in Irish in the future.

What I am basically saying is that while there is a risk to allowing posts in Irish, that in a forum that has a moderator with Irish, that risk is no greater than the risk there is from English posts.

Darragh

My suggestion for allowing Posts in Irish relates to forums that already have a moderator with enough Irish to be able to deal with them effectively... The main thing is that there is a mod there who is able to deal with a problem should one arise.

Okay, I'm happy with that. All I'd need is the agreement of the moderators of the forums in question and the agreement of the members that they were happy to have Irish spoken there and then it's business as usual!

deise go deo

Darragh wrote: »

Okay, I'm happy with that. All I'd need is the agreement of the moderators of the forums in question and the agreement of the members that they were happy to have Irish spoken there and then it's business as usual!

Excellent:) Thanks for your time on this issue.

DeVore

I'm sorry, the ultimate authority on something like this is the Admins. They have not even been consulted on this.

Darragh, its not within your remit to make such a decision alone.

Until you hear from the admins, the existing rule remains.

DeV.

deise go deo

DeVore wrote: »

I'm sorry, the ultimate authority on something like this is the Admins. They have not even been consulted on this.

Darragh, its not within your remit to make such a decision alone.

Until you hear from the admins, the existing rule remains.

DeV.

Ok, Is their any indication on how long it would take for that to happen?

Can I ask what your opinion is personally DeV?