Irish Rail €100 Penalty Fare

the_judge

I was travelling on the train today, bought a single journey ticket for €2.30 but mistakingly threw it out when I was clearing out my wallet waiting for the delayed train.

Ticket inspector comes on, and I tell him this story. I understand he had to fine me because I had no proof of what I was telling him. But to fine me €100 for a €2.30 ticket? Isn't that a bit ridiculous?

I haven't been fined before, but some of my friends have and they were only charged €50. Is it just up to the inspector on the train to decide what fare to pay, or do they have a system on how to decide?

Also, I'm wondering if you guys know if there's any way to appeal this? I know I can't prove what I did, but compared to the price of the fare, I think €100 fine is too much.

Cookie_Monster

sigh, another one.

you had no ticket, got caught. just pay it and move on.

lucky it wasn't higher tbh

Everyone must have a ticket to travel by train.

If you do not have a valid ticket for travel we will charge you a fixed penalty fare of up to €150. If your ticket requires an ID card, you must have that card with you when travelling. If you don't have the ID card with you, we will charge you a fixed penalty of up to €150.

http://www.irishrail.ie/home/passenger_charter.asp

MIRMIR82

the_judge wrote: »

I was travelling on the train today, bought a single journey ticket for €2.30 but mistakingly threw it out when I was clearing out my wallet waiting for the delayed train.

Ticket inspector comes on, and I tell him this story. I understand he had to fine me because I had no proof of what I was telling him. But to fine me €100 for a €2.30 ticket? Isn't that a bit ridiculous?

I haven't been fined before, but some of my friends have and they were only charged €50. Is it just up to the inspector on the train to decide what fare to pay, or do they have a system on how to decide?

Also, I'm wondering if you guys know if there's any way to appeal this? I know I can't prove what I did, but compared to the price of the fare, I think €100 fine is too much.

Someone comes on here about once a month with the same sort of story....sorry judge you'll just have to pay it:(

the_judge

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

sigh, another one.

you had no ticket, got caught. just pay it and move on.

lucky it wasn't higher tbh


http://www.irishrail.ie/home/passenger_charter.asp

I read that, and it's only €150 if you use a card to get a discounted ticket and you don't have that card when asked. €100 is still ****ty.

ClovenHoof

If you made a genuine mistake or lost your ticket never pay this penalty.

There is no legal basis for these fines. It is words on paper designed to make you scared and pay up.

Same for the Luas one. Just get off the train and if any CIE/RPA person lays a finger on you have them charged with assult and false imprisonment.

A IE/Luas employee has no more stautory powers to impose a fine than a pizza delivery boy.

Say sorry for your mistake, offer to pay the correct fare either to the ticket collector or at the station and exit the train or Luas with your mobile phone camera recording and warn them if any attempt is made to hold or touch you then an assult charge will be brought against the staff in quesiton.

If they stupid enough to call the Guards do not give them your name. Demand a laywer be provided and refuse to make a statement until a lawyer is brought on to the train or tram. Be polite to the staff or any official and request that they allow you to leave the train or tram to carry on with your business. All the time stress that you have broken no IRISH law, you are offering to pay the correct fare and harmed no other passenger or staff. If the Guards grab you same rule appiles - they are breaking the law. Real laws not made up CIE ones.

I am talking about making a geniune mistake here and not some scumbag/skager fare dodger.

Irish Rail and the RPA have no legal mandates. A railway by-law is not law in the statutory, judicial sense. They cannot drag you into court against your will.

CIE and the RPA are not separate countries with their own legal structures which allows them to impose fines on people. This is only legal in Irish Statutory Law and no member of CIE or the RPA has any legal power to impose and collect fines. What it says in the CIE rulebook is just word on paper. NOT LAW.

No passenger should allow themselves to be fined for a genuine mistake. This is a basic civil liberty granted to you in the Irish Statute book. Constantly state this the whole time and do not give your name to anyone. Do not show id and constantly offer to pay the correct fare and record this on camera. If the train staff asks you for your name you request they give their and name of their supervisior and constantly request where in the Irish Statute Book does is say CIE/RPA staff can impose fines for genuine mistakes.

flyingsnail

ClovenHoof wrote: »

If you made a genuine mistake or lost your ticket never pay this penalty.

There is no legal basis for these fines. It is words on paper designed to make you scared and pay up.

Same for the Luas one. Just get off the train and if any CIE/RPA person lays a finger on you have them charged with assult and false imprisonment.

A IE/Luas employee has no more stautory powers to impose a fine than a pizza delivery boy.

Say sorry for your mistake, offer to pay the correct fare either to the ticket collector or at the station and exit the train or Luas with your mobile phone came recording and warn them if any attempt is made to hold or touch you then an assult charge will be brought against the staff in quesiton.

If they call the Guards do not give them your name. Demand a laywer be provided and refuse to make a statement until a lawyer is brought on to the train or tram. Be polite to the staff or any official and request that they allow you to leave the train or tram to carry on with your business. All the time stress that you have broken no law and harmed no other passenger or staff. If the Guards grab you same rule appiles - they are breaking the law.

I am talking about making a geniune mistake here and not some scumbag/skager fare dodger.

Irish Rail and the RPA have no legal mandates. A railway by-law is not law in the statutory, judicial sense. They cannot drag you into court against your will.

Sorry but you are wrong, the powers to issue a penalty fare notice is covered in part 15 of the railway safety act 2005.

NuMarvel

ClovenHoof wrote: »

I am talking about making a geniune mistake here and not some scumbag/skager fare dodger.

If what you're saying in the rest of your post is correct, then what law applies to a "scumbag/skager fare dodger"? More importantly, how does that law apply to said dodgers given that you are recommending that people do not give their names (and therefore the Gardaí can't check if someone claiming to have made a genuine mistake has made that claim before).

goingnowhere

Rail Safety Act 2005 section 132 and 133 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/act/pub/0031/sec0132.html#sec132 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/act/pub/0031/sec0133.html#sec133

Rail Bye Laws SI 109 1984 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1984/en/si/0109.html

If you can't produce a ticket a reasonable ground exists to issue a fine, you have broken the laws of the state, you will get fined and if you refuse to pay you will end up in courts. The conviction rate is high.

ClovenHoof

goingnowhere wrote: »

Rail Safety Act 2005 section 132 and 133 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/act/pub/0031/sec0132.html#sec132 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/act/pub/0031/sec0133.html#sec133

Rail Bye Laws SI 109 1984 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1984/en/si/0109.html

If you can't produce a ticket a reasonable ground exists to issue a fine, you have broken the laws of the state, you will get fined and if you refuse to pay you will end up in courts. The conviction rate is high.

Only if you give them your name. Maybe then they have "resonable grounds". (whatever that means in the real world...) DO NOT GIVE ANY ONE YOUR NAME. Not even the Guards without a lawyer present.

A honest mistake is not punishable by Irish law. Civil Protection legistation superceeds this. It is not illegal to make a genuine mistake.

I would not pay this fine. The cops will never come to you house with an arrest warrant.

ClovenHoof

NuMarvel wrote: »

If what you're saying in the rest of your post is correct, then what law applies to a "scumbag/skager fare dodger"? More importantly, how does that law apply to said dodgers given that you are recommending that people do not give their names (and therefore the Gardaí can't check if someone claiming to have made a genuine mistake has made that claim before).

Scumbag fare dodgers can do the same. I am not interested in them.

My concern is for passengers who made an honest mistake. They are being unfairly punished and more importantly a CIE/RPA staff member has no more legal power than a pizza delivery boy to impose a fine. They cannot make you give them your name or have powers of arrest.

Politely smile and be helpful by offering to pay the correct fare. If they ask for your name laugh in their faces.

If they grab you or hold you on the train or in the station your civil rights are being massively violated with or without your laywer present. Then you make sure to charge the CIE/RPA staff with assult and false imprisonment. Simple. You are a law abiding citizen, who made an honest mistake and you are not subject to some fantasy CIE/RPA legal structures and policing.

CIE is not a country with its own laws and police force.

28064212

ClovenHoof wrote: »

There you go. A honest mistake is not punishable by Irish law. Civil Protection legistation superceeds this. It is not illegal to make a genuine mistake.

I would not pay this fine. The cops will never come to you house with an arrest warrant.

Even then they cannot arrest you and you do not have to give them your name. You have the right to remain silent until a lawyer is present.

From the links above:

(2) A passenger who fails—
(a) to comply with a request under subsection (1) to deliver up a ticket...

is guilty of an offence.

You clearly have no idea of what the law actually is. If the Gardaí come to your house with an arrest warrant, they most certainly can arrest you.

Which part of the "Civil Protection" legislation protects 'genuine mistakes' btw?

goingnowhere

Refusal to give your name will result in the gardai being called and you being arrested for being in breech of the Rail Safety Act and the Transport Act

If you don't pay the fine, you will be summoned to court. Over 80% of cases brought before the courts have resulted in conviction with fines of up to 950 euro or 2 months in jail if fine unpaid. Failure to appear, or failure to pay the fine will result in a bench warrant being issued at which point the gardai will be knocking on or knocking in your door.

Honest mistake does not protect you where you have failed to exercise due care.

Mr. Presentable

ClovenHoof wrote: »

I am talking about making a geniune mistake here and not some scumbag/skager fare dodger.

.

This for me is where your agrument falls down. How is one to determine what is a genuine mistake and not a fare dodger?

BCC4LYFE

hahha yeah man its a joke ive been caught about like 50 times coz my skl was on dart line and like ive nevr payed a fine...got caught today and did a runner haha the look on der faces was priceless....

ClovenHoof

(2) A passenger who fails—
(a) to comply with a request under subsection (1) to deliver up a ticket...

is guilty of an offence.

What offence?

28064212

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Scumbag fare dodgers can do the same. I am not interested in them.

So free travel for everyone?

ClovenHoof wrote: »

My concern is for passengers who made an honest mistake. They are being unfairly punished and more importantly a CIE/RPA staff member has no more legal power than a pizza delivery boy to impose a fine.

Wrong. The legislation is right there in post 8. Have you read it yet?

ClovenHoof wrote: »

They cannot make you give them your name

Sort of correct. In the same way that no-one can "make" you pay your taxes. It is against the law though

ClovenHoof wrote: »

or have powers of arrest.

Correct, but they can call the Gardaí, who can arrest you

28064212

ClovenHoof wrote: »

What offence?

That is the offence.

mickydoomsux

Clovenhoof, go into a shop, pick something off the shelf and walk out the door. See how that goes for you even if you offer to pay for it afterwards.

Try arguing that you're not a "scumbag" and you just made a mistake.

kenon

A few weeks ago, I was getting a train to Maynooth from Castleknock and the ticket machine wasn't working and the ticket booth was closed, so I just went to the platform ticketless.

I get on the train and within 30 seconds of getting on the train and sitting down, who do I see but none other than a ticket inspector heading down the carriage. (I couldn't help but find this funny as it was the first ticket inspector I'd seen on a train for short journeys and was probably the first time I was ever ticketless).

Anyway, the ticket inspector asks me for a ticket and I inform him I don't have one as the machine was knackered and the ticket booth was closed. He just said "grand, just get a ticket in Maynooth", and then he walked off.

I guess its just luck which ticket inspector you get...or what excuse you use for not having a ticket.

Mr. Presentable

You had an acceptable reason for no ticket, so there was no problem.

ClovenHoof

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Clovenhoof, go into a shop, pick something off the shelf and walk out the door. See how that goes for you even if you offer to pay for it afterwards.

Try arguing that you're not a "scumbag" and you just made a mistake.

What has this got to do with a genuine law abiding person making an honest mistake by getting the wrong train ticket?



I'll finish this thread by once again pointing out.

• Do not give your name to any CIE/RPA staff they have no legal mandate to force you to do this - in fact if they try to force you they are breaking the law
• Behave politely, repsectfully and offer to rectify your mistake by paying for a ticket - treat the train staff with dignity
• Treat passengers arround with respect - do not shout or use bad language
• If a CIE/RPA staff member tries to bully you into giving your name or even comes close to touching you or holding you on the train/station then state "ASSULT!" and get withnesses and keep your camera phone runing
• If the CIE/RPA staff calls the guards (they won't if you are not hurting anyone) and they bother coming (othewise just keep on walking to your destination) to the station do not give your name or answer any questions without your lawyer present
• Remain calm and polite
• If the Guards bring you to the barracks (incredibly highly unlikely). -Do NOT give your name and repeat constantly until they let you leave which they will. "What is the nature of the offence and am I free to go." SAY NOTHING ELSE. Do not even say "yes" if they offer you a cup of tea - Just keep repeating "What is the nature of the offence and am I free to go." Under no circumstances say "what laws have I broken?" or "what am I guilty of" as these statements are admission of guilt.
  
  This is when ethmology and semantics are vital. The whole idea is for the Law Society (who are not the law, they just revenue collectors on behalf of the client) to get you to enter their "court" in order to play their game. So say nothing which will allow the Garda to impose authority over you while in their custody. You are an innocent person at all times and being in a Garda Barracks does not make you guilty. "What is the nature of the offence and am I free to go." as much as it takes and until the Garda give up.

• Say nothing else and you'll be relased in no time as they won't have a thing to hang on you. Frankly the Guards have better things to do with their time that bother otherwise decent folks who made a mistake and annoyed CIE/RPA bookkeepers.

Remember folks. There is only one law in Ireland and nowhere on the statute books does it say making a mistake and getting the wrong train ticket is illegal. This is a ruse by CIE/RPA to collect extra revenue (which is what all these fines from RTE Licience to Parking Fines are in actuality). You made a honest mistake and you did everything could to correct this in front of witnesses in a polite and respectful manner and the train staff refused.

You have rights too. Use them.

28064212

I'll finish this thread by once again pointing out.

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Do not give your name to any CIE/RPA staff they have no legal mandate to force you to do this

And a shop has no legal mandate to stop you shop-lifting. It is an offence though, and you can be arrested for it

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Behave politely, repsectfully and offer to rectify your mistake by paying for a ticket

Which they may or may not accept

ClovenHoof wrote: »

If a CIE/RPA staff member tries to bully you into giving your name or even comes close to touching you or holding you on the train then state "ASSULT!" and get withnesses and keep your camera phone runing

"ASSULT" has a very specific meaning in law

ClovenHoof wrote: »

If the CIE/RPA staff calls the guards and they bother coming to the station do not give your name or answer any quesitons without your lawyer present

If you want. The vast majority of the time it will be advantageous to give your name.

ClovenHoof wrote: »

If the Guards bring you to the barracks: Do you give your name and repeat constantly until they let you leave which they will. "What is the nature of my offence and am I free to go."

The relevant laws have been provided to you in post 8, which you clearly still haven't read

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Say nothing else and you'll be relased in no time as they won't have a thing to hang on you.

Except of course for the Rail Safety Act 2005 sections 132 and 133

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Remember folks. There is only one law in Ireland and nowhere on the statute books does it say making a mistake and getting the wrong ticket is illegal.

Correct. Sort of. However, travelling without a ticket (for any reason) is quite explicitly stated to be illegal

Qwert1

The law of Ireland states that if you are unable to produce a ticket to show you have paid the correct fare you have commited an offence. This has been pointed out to you on numerous occasions. If you are brought to a station and request your lawyer he will be called, what help is that? If you ask 'what is the nature of my offence?' you will be told you were unable to produce a valid ticket. It's quite simple pay the fine, that is the law.

Pineapple stu

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Only if you give them your name. Maybe then they have "resonable grounds". (whatever that means in the real world...) DO NOT GIVE ANY ONE YOUR NAME. Not even the Guards without a lawyer present.

A honest mistake is not punishable by Irish law. Civil Protection legistation superceeds this. It is not illegal to make a genuine mistake.

I would not pay this fine. The cops will never come to you house with an arrest warrant.

So that means the ticket checker doesnt have to give his name either if asked does it ?

flyingsnail

ClovenHoof wrote: »

[*]Do not give your name to any CIE/RPA staff they have no legal mandate to force you to do this - in fact if they try to force you they are breaking the law

perhaps you should read more carefully . As has been pointed out the offence is for not having a ticket and as for not giving you name and address.

Railway safety act 2005 part 15 section 2

(2) A passenger who fails—
(a) to comply with a request under subsection (1) to deliver
up a ticket,
(b) to pay the fare required under subsection (1)(a), or
(c) to give his or her name and address, if requested under
subsection (1)(b),
is guilty of an offence

] Railway safety act 2005 part 15 section 4

(4) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on
summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €1,000

ClovenHoof wrote: »

You have rights too. Use them.

nobody has the right to break the law.

BCC4LYFE

these ticket inspectors i dunno wat it is mayb its their crap job but there always so angry and think there more important than dey r. their so dumb as well it was so obvious i was gna make a run for it. the funny thing is if they had just given me the fine(i used a fake name) i mighta actuali payed it...thankfully 4 me i got away with nothin...didnt even need da effort to throw the slip away..thanks guy

AlekSmart

I'll finish this thread by once again pointing out.

* Do not give your name to any CIE/RPA staff they have no legal mandate to force you to do this - in fact if they try to force you they are breaking the law
* Behave politely, repsectfully and offer to rectify your mistake by paying for a ticket - treat the train staff with dignity
* Treat passengers arround with respect - do not shout or use bad language
* If a CIE/RPA staff member tries to bully you into giving your name or even comes close to touching you or holding you on the train/station then state "ASSULT!" and get withnesses and keep your camera phone runing
* If the CIE/RPA staff calls the guards (they won't if you are not hurting anyone) and they bother coming (othewise just keep on walking to your destination) to the station do not give your name or answer any questions without your lawyer present
* Remain calm and polite
* If the Guards bring you to the barracks (incredibly highly unlikely). -Do NOT give your name and repeat constantly until they let you leave which they will. "What is the nature of the offence and am I free to go." SAY NOTHING ELSE. Do not even say "yes" if they offer you a cup of tea - Just keep repeating "What is the nature of the offence and am I free to go." Under no circumstances say "what laws have I broken?" or "what am I guilty of" as these statements are admission of guilt.

This is when ethmology and semantics are vital. The whole idea is for the Law Society (who are not the law, they just revenue collectors on behalf of the client) to get you to enter their "court" in order to play their game. So say nothing which will allow the Garda to impose authority over you while in their custody. You are an innocent person at all times and being in a Garda Barracks does not make you guilty. "What is the nature of the offence and am I free to go." as much as it takes and until the Garda give up.

* Say nothing else and you'll be relased in no time as they won't have a thing to hang on you. Frankly the Guards have better things to do with their time that bother otherwise decent folks who made a mistake and annoyed CIE/RPA bookkeepers..

Yea verily,a Constitutional Tour de Force indeed from Colvenhoof....well done that man

Mind you deriving enjoyment and/or satisfaction from the advice does not necessarily mean it is correct

Many might be suirprised at the numbers of Clovenhoof`s clients who,at the drop of a hat or the approach of a Revenue Inspector,will fall on the ground screaming "ASSAULT !!" at the top of their voices.

However the subsequent statistics for Public Transport Staff being convicted of Common Assault during the execution of their duties remains substantially below those members of the Public who recieve court-sentences for breaches of the relevant Railway/Bus/Tram Bye-Laws.

Odd that....:rolleyes:


You have rights too. Use them.

However as Clovenhoof relates I'll finish this thread by once again pointing out.....
Remember folks.

There is only one law in Ireland

:eek:

Cookie_Monster

BCC4LYFE wrote: »

these ticket inspectors i dunno wat it is mayb its their crap job but there always so angry and think there more important than dey r. their so dumb as well it was so obvious i was gna make a run for it. the funny thing is if they had just given me the fine(i used a fake name) i mighta actuali payed it...thankfully 4 me i got away with nothin...didnt even need da effort to throw the slip away..thanks guy

why do you think you're so special that you don't have to pay like everyone else?
:mad:

Bluetonic

BCC4LYFE wrote: »

these ticket inspectors i dunno wat it is mayb its their crap job but there always so angry and think there more important than dey r. their so dumb as well it was so obvious i was gna make a run for it. the funny thing is if they had just given me the fine(i used a fake name) i mighta actuali payed it...thankfully 4 me i got away with nothin...didnt even need da effort to throw the slip away..thanks guy

Yes, indeed.

NuMarvel

Anyways, to go back to the OP's predicament, is there any way you can prove you bought the ticket? Did you pay for it by credit/debit card maybe? Or, and this is a reaaaal longshot, would the station have CCTV of you purchasing the ticket?

If not, then I think you'll have to chalk it up to a very expensive lesson Or, you could appeal it anyway. Write to Irish Rail and set out what happened. Ask them if they would consider at least reducing the fine. That said, I presume Irish Rail are probably a bit like the TV licence inspectors in this respect - they've heard all the excuses!

dowlingm

Can we have the following links stickied please?
Railway Safety Act

• Section 132 Penalty for avoiding payment of fare
• Section 133 Fixed Payment Notice
• Section 134 Subsection 66B (Powers of Authorized Officers, 66C Fixed payment notice.

the_judge - 134.66C.3 might be where you have a problem not withstanding the intent to evade language further up:

In a prosecution for an offence under this Act the onus of proving that a payment pursuant to a notice under this section has been made lies on the defendant.

However, I am not a lawyer and I hope ClovenHoof isn't one either.

For the liars: 134.66B.1

If an authorised officer reasonably suspects that a person ... has contravened section 118 or 132 of the Railway Safety Act 2005 ... he or she may

(i) using such reasonable force as the circumstances require, remove or escort the person from the railway or any part of it,
(ii) in circumstances where the authorised officer considers it to be justified, arrest the person without warrant, or
(iii) require the person to give his or her name and address and, if the person fails or refuses to do so or gives a name that the authorised officer reasonably suspects is false or misleading, arrest that person without warrant,

and, if he or she is not a member of the Garda Síochána, deliver, as soon as practicable, the person, if arrested, into the custody of a member of the Garda Síochána to be dealt with according to law.

(2) A person who fails or refuses to give his or her name or address when required under subsection (1), or gives a name or address which is false or misleading, is guilty of an offence and is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €1,000.

dowlingm

BCC4LYFE wrote: »

these ticket inspectors i dunno wat it is mayb its their crap job but there always so angry and think there more important than dey r. their so dumb as well it was so obvious i was gna make a run for it. the funny thing is if they had just given me the fine(i used a fake name) i mighta actuali payed it...thankfully 4 me i got away with nothin...didnt even need da effort to throw the slip away..thanks guy

Given the state of this post I'm assuming you frequently run from truancy inspectors too?

Terrontress

While I am unsure as to some of the advice given here, I think that Irish Rail's policy on penalty fares is unfair.

They seem to think that the issuing of more penalty fares is a measure of success, ignoring the fact that a customer genuinely making a mistake represents a failure on their part as well as the customer. The current policy puts all the responsibility at the door of the customer and is designed to enable IR to put as little work in as possible. While it may stack up legally, I am not sure it does morally.

The fine is disproportionate. A €2.30 fare leading to a €100 fine. That would allow over 40 people to travel! Compare the UK where they charge either £20 or twice the correct fare, whichever is the greatest. Plus there is an independent appeals service.

What makes all this worse is that the advice given above, while not legally correct is most likely practically correct. Display such random behaviour as recommended and the ticket checker will probably be glad to see the back of you and let you walk off. Or else you can tell him you are a junkie on the way in to town to get me methadone and you'll be let walk. Of course the Gardai aren't going to come to arrest someone whose only transgression is not to have a ticket but isn't causing any other nuisance.

Yet again, it will be the person caught out by mistake who will bear the brunt of this. Any other business would never treat a customer like this but Irish Rail is a monopoly.

goingnowhere

The law applies to all rail operations within the republic, its not specific to Irish Rail

The law was written and past by the Irish parliament

The penalty has to be sufficient to deter people from adopting a statistical view knowing the detection rate to be low, the cost of getting caught being less than the ticket costs for a handful of journeys.

That said Irish Rail has a very high conviction rate before the courts which indicates that the ultimate independent challenge, the court service is happy

flyingsnail

Terrontress wrote: »

The fine is disproportionate. A €2.30 fare leading to a €100 fine. That would allow over 40 people to travel! Compare the UK where they charge either £20 or twice the correct fare, whichever is the greatest. Plus there is an independent appeals service.

while the op fare might have been 2.30 the maximum fare on the line on which he travelled could have been considerably more. There is just no way for the checker to know how far he travelled.


PS. I am not saying the op did this merely that the checker has no way of knowing what fare would be applicable.

Terrontress

flyingsnail wrote: »

while the op fare might have been 2.30 the maximum fare on the line on which he travelled could have been considerably more. There is just no way for the checker to know how far he travelled.


PS. I am not saying the op did this merely that the checker has no way of knowing what fare would be applicable.

So they assume the worst and make a charge completely out of line with the likely loss in revenue.

28064212

Terrontress wrote: »

So they assume the worst and make a charge completely out of line with the likely loss in revenue.

So what should it be? What's a 'fair' fine? The likely loss of revenue from the passenger that's caught is €2.30, so they should just be charged that?

Cookie_Monster

Terrontress wrote: »

So they assume the worst and make a charge completely out of line with the likely loss in revenue.

no. The fine also builds in the cost of employing ticket checkers and all the associated admin work that needs doing. If the world was not full of scum and everybody paid their way then they would not need to employ all these people in frontline, admin and legal positions to deal with it and have a pretty big cost saving.

Terrontress

28064212 wrote: »

So what should it be? What's a 'fair' fine? The likely loss of revenue from the passenger that's caught is €2.30, so they should just be charged that?

If they have a genuine excuse, yes. Otherwise a similar system to the UK should be employed, a progressive fine with a minimum amount.

28064212

Terrontress wrote: »

If they have a genuine excuse, yes.

:pac: What's a genuine excuse? Your word?

Terrontress wrote: »

Otherwise a similar system to the UK should be employed, a progressive fine with a minimum amount.

So everyone should not bother paying, as the likelihood is you won't be caught often enough to make it worth your while

Terrontress

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

no. The fine also builds in the cost of employing ticket checkers and all the associated admin work that needs doing. If the world was not full of scum and everybody paid their way then they would not need to employ all these people in frontline, admin and legal positions to deal with it and have a pretty big cost saving.

Are you describing the op as scum? If they had been purposely fare evading they would not have come on here to complain about the fine. I maintain that the largest amount of fines are handed out to those who have made a simple mistake who should be allowed to pay the correct fare and be on their way.

If you were to employ more front line staff selling tickets and providing information to customers then I'd imagine the numberof people travelling without the requisite ticket would decrease.

Terrontress

28064212 wrote: »

:pac: What's a genuine excuse? Your word?


So everyone should not bother paying, as the likelihood is you won't be caught often enough to make it worth your while

No, everybody should pay because it is the correct thing to do and public transport is a vital service which requires the contribution of those using it. The public at large know this and are decent and honest and this should be reflected in the policies of IR.

People who do not have a correct ticket should be taken at their word. Revenue Protection staff should have the discretion to accept someone's reason and sell them the correct ticket or, in the case of the op, let them proceed as they have already paid the fare.

28064212

Terrontress wrote: »

Are you describing the op as scum? If they had been purposely fare evading they would not have come on here to complain about the fine.

Or he's a fare evader that got caught and is looking for a way to avoid the fine

Terrontress wrote: »

I maintain that the largest amount of fines are handed out to those who have made a simple mistake who should be allowed to pay the correct fare and be on their way.

And I maintain that the largest amount of fines are handed out to people who claim to have made a simple mistake

Terrontress wrote: »

If you were to employ more front line staff selling tickets and providing information to customers then I'd imagine the numberof people travelling without the requisite ticket would decrease.

Eh, what's confusing about the current system that more ticket sellers or information would change?

Alun

So how exactly do those proposing going easy on people caught with no tickets suggest the RP staff distinguish between those who have made a genuine mistake and those who are just chancing it? Like others have said, I assume they've heard all the excuses by now, and just because someone comes across as polite, smartly dressed and respectable is no guarantee that they're any more genuine than anyone else giving the same excuse.

28064212

Terrontress wrote: »

No, everybody should pay because it is the correct thing to do and public transport is a vital service which requires the contribution of those using it. The public at large know this and are decent and honest and this should be reflected in the policies of IR.

People who do not have a correct ticket should be taken at their word. Revenue Protection staff should have the discretion to accept someone's reason and sell them the correct ticket or, in the case of the op, let them proceed as they have already paid the fare.

:pac: Yeah, let me know how that goes. Sure get rid of the Gardaí too, there's no crimes, the knife simply 'fell' into the other guy's stomach

Mr. Presentable

Terrontress wrote: »

or, in the case of the op, let them proceed as they have already paid the fare.

How do you, I, or the inspector know the OP had in fact paid the fare?

Terrontress

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

How do you, I, or the inspector know the OP had in fact paid the fare?

Because they claim to have done so.

Terrontress

Alun wrote: »

So how exactly do those proposing going easy on people caught with no tickets suggest the RP staff distinguish between those who have made a genuine mistake and those who are just chancing it? Like others have said, I assume they've heard all the excuses by now, and just because someone comes across as polite, smartly dressed and respectable is no guarantee that they're any more genuine than anyone else giving the same excuse.

The whole system seems to be set up to presume that everybody is a fare dodger until proven otherwise and that fare evasion is the natural choice of everybody.

I have taken the same train to and from work daily for several years, while it has been running, that I could have evaded the fare for 99% of the time and the sum of the €100 fines when caught would have been less than the train fare. In spite of this I pay for my train ticket. Am I stupid to have done so? Should I have evaded, paid up and been happy with the result?

No is what I think. I know the price, I use the service, I pay the price. But the posters on here seem to think it is the way to go and that everybody is trying to rip off the railway.

Mr. Presentable

Terrontress wrote: »

Because they claim to have done so.

I am not casting aspersions on the OP, but when a inspector calls and you say you have no ticket but did in fact buy one....

"Ah, grand, so. Thank you for your business"

(Out of curiosity, where do you take a single fare that costs more than €100.00? It's not a wonder the trains are under-used.) Ah, you mean combined fares. I misunderstood

maggy_thatcher

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

Out of curiosity, where do you take a single fare that costs more than €100.00? It's not a wonder the trains are under-used.

I would imagine that Terrontress is implying that the number of times that the ticket was checked multiplied by €100 would still amount to less than the amount normally paid for a ticket.

I know for me that's the case. I have an annual pass, and take the DART twice a day 5 days a week...the last time my ticket was checked on board a train was about 2 or 3 years ago. At the stations I get off, it's very rare that there's somebody there checking tickets, and with the new barriers, it's very easy to sneak out behind somebody.

Terrontress

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

I would imagine that Terrontress is implying that the number of times that the ticket was checked multiplied by €100 would still amount to less than the amount normally paid for a ticket.

I know for me that's the case. I have an annual pass, and take the DART twice a day 5 days a week...the last time my ticket was checked on board a train was about 2 or 3 years ago. At the stations I get off, it's very rare that there's somebody there checking tickets, and with the new barriers, it's very easy to sneak out behind somebody.

That's right.

For the most part dedicated fare dodgers have their escape route planned. It's those who sit happily and see the revenue protection arrive or else walk straight in to their clutches and either present the wrong ticket, explain their reason for not buying one or can't find their ticket. The dodgers travel to the next station or move along the train or start the nonsense as explained above and get told to clear off. It's the honest who get caught out.

As I travel at rush hour, I never get checked on board. Passengers can't find space to move through the carriage.

But I'm lucky to work and live close to the railway and on the rare occasions I drive to work, I realise how much value the railway gives and playing the mathematical game is not on.