Can satan become good?

Canis Lupus

This can be a quick one and apologies if asked before but does the devil have free will and whilst possibly not reconcile with god could he not turn over a new leaf and become good... you know, turn the gas off in hell, plant a few flowers etc What impact would this have?

If hell became a place that, whilst wasn't heaven, but lets say was going to still be an awesome spot to spend eternity AND with less stringent rules on getting in surely this would be more popular. (I'm not talking about it being a typical temptation trick but a genuine restart)

Or am I missing something obvious written in scripture that prevents this?

JimiTime

Canis Lupus wrote: »

This can be a quick one and apologies if asked before but does the devil have free will and whilst possibly not reconcile with god could he not turn over a new leaf and become good... you know, turn the gas off in hell, plant a few flowers etc What impact would this have?

A common misconception is that the devil has power or dominion over hell. He doesn't. He has no power over it etc. He will not be punishing people etc, but rather, he is consigned to it like anyone else judged in such a manner.

As for redemption, as far as I'm aware he rebelled against Gods holy spirit which according to scripture, there is no redemption from.

Canis Lupus

JimiTime wrote: »

A common misconception is that the devil has power or dominion over hell. He doesn't. He has no power over it etc. He will not be punishing people etc, but rather, he is consigned to it like anyone else judged in such a manner.

As for redemption, as far as I'm aware he rebelled against Gods holy spirit which according to scripture, there is no redemption from.

Didn't realise he had no power over it. So even if the devil moved out souls would still go to hell?

I'm not necessarily suggesting btw that the devil gets redemption. He can still hate god but the devil is always portrayed as a generally bad fella and in particular someone who has the power to tempt people into doing bad deeds. Seeing as he's been around for a while now I was wondering why he hasn't gotten bored of it and just decided to get along with everyone.

antiskeptic

Canis Lupus wrote: »

This can be a quick one and apologies if asked before but does the devil have free will

I'd suppose not anymore. In the same way that God is light and in whom there is no darkness (or evil motivation), I'd figure satan to be darkness in whom there is no light (or good motivation). Without both there can be no free will.

and whilst possibly not reconcile with god could he not turn over a new leaf and become good... you know, turn the gas off in hell, plant a few flowers etc What impact would this have?

Without such motivation...

If hell became a place that, whilst wasn't heaven, but lets say was going to still be an awesome spot to spend eternity AND with less stringent rules* on getting in surely this would be more popular. (I'm not talking about it being a typical temptation trick but a genuine restart)


Or am I missing something obvious written in scripture that prevents this?

Scripturally, it would appear that Hell is God's rubbish tip where all that is useless is thrown. As an expression of God's furious wrath against all that is evil, I can see no reason to suppose it awesome in any positive sense.

Indeed, the sense is of a prison-like existance where self-expression is utterly bound up. So, whilst a prisoner in our prisons can escape the walls using his mind, a prisoner in Hell is completely bound up and subject to his incarceration: physically, emotionally and spiritually. There will be no escape from the suffering.


Given that that description takes the form of promise there is no basis for supposing it can be otherwise. God doesn't break his promises.


*ps: there are no rules you can follow to get 'into Heaven'. The gospel is a gospel of grace, not works.

Plowman

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Canis Lupus

Plowman wrote: »

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Well my point would be if satan had power over hell (Jimi says this isn't true) then he could turn it into another competing 5 star resort I'm just saying if Satan became good and hell became nice BUT with the added benefit of not having to follow the word of god then would there be so much motivation to get into heaven?

Just something I pondered over a doob last night, it's obviously flawed but still it made me chuckle thinking about it.

antiskeptic

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Just something I pondered over a doob last night, it's obviously flawed but still it made me chuckle thinking about it.

In my doob-smoking days, I seldom woke up the next morning thinking the previous nights ponderings were other than doob-think

antiskeptic

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Well my point would be if satan had power over hell (Jimi says this isn't true) then he could turn it into another competing 5 star resort I'm just saying if Satan became good and hell became nice BUT with the added benefit of not having to follow the word of god then would there be so much motivation to get into heaven?

I think I can vouch for most Christians here when I say that the attraction of heaven is that we'll no longer be capable of not following Gods ways.

Indeed, ones conversion to Christianity usually stems from being weary of living contrary to God's ways. The idea of an eternity spent living utterly contrary to Gods ways (ie: only and forever putting self on the throne) strikes me as a faith worse than death.

Jimmy444

antiskeptic wrote: »

I think I can vouch for most Christians here when I say that the attraction of heaven is that we'll no longer be capable of not following Gods ways.

Indeed, ones conversion to Christianity usually stems from being weary of living contrary to God's ways. The idea of an eternity spent living utterly contrary to Gods ways (ie: only and forever putting self on the throne) strikes me as a faith worse than death.

I like what you did there!

dvae

Never mind hell, Satan is the temporary ruler of this world. Thats why God gets a lot of stick with such questions,"why dose God allow bad things to happen"
I don't know if Satan could ever turn good, but i am certain if Satan did turn over a new leaf tomorrow, he would never be forgiven.
All sins can be forgiven except those that sin against the Holy Spirit

Plowman

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georgieporgy

If you really are interested in info on hell have a look at this


http://www.theotokos.org.uk/pages/approved/appariti/fatima.html

Onesimus

Origen had this wild idea once that at the end of time Satan would be redeemed. St.Evagrios the solitary had the same theory too as he was a fan of Origen. But both their ideas were later condemned at the 5th Ecumenical council.

There is no redemption for Satan.

PDN

I suspect that part of the interaction between our free will and God's purpose for us is that we eventually become what we choose to be.

If you use your free will to choose salvation then eventually, in eternity, you become so holy that you cannot choose to sin.

If you use your free will to consistently reject God, then perhaps you reach the point where you become so evil that you are incapable of doing good.

strobe

dvae wrote: »

Never mind hell, Satan is the temporary ruler of this world.

Is this a commonly held opinion? Is there scripture that suggests this? Wouldn't what Jimi said mean this is not the case?

Festus

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Well my point would be if satan had power over hell (Jimi says this isn't true) then he could turn it into another competing 5 star resort I'm just saying if Satan became good and hell became nice BUT with the added benefit of not having to follow the word of god then would there be so much motivation to get into heaven?

Just something I pondered over a doob last night, it's obviously flawed but still it made me chuckle thinking about it.

Reading too much Piers Anthony I suspect.

Anyhow, even in Anthonys' universe Satan was still a liar and while he presented Hell as a five star resort in his advertising and promotional programs those who wound up there found it to be anything but.

Festus

strobe wrote: »

Is this a commonly held opinion? Is there scripture that suggests this? Wouldn't what Jimi said mean this is not the case?

You'll find the answer here

Tar.Aldarion

What is heaven supposed to be like, I mean what does it say in the bible, you'll be perfectly happy etc?

PDN

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

What is heaven supposed to be like, I mean what does it say in the bible, you'll be perfectly happy etc?

It says that it is a temporary state where you are in God's presence until the resurrection of your body from the dead.

Tar.Aldarion

PDN wrote: »

It says that it is a temporary state where you are in God's presence until the resurrection of your body from the dead.

so everybody comes back to life eh

strobe

Festus wrote: »

You'll find the answer here

Extremely helpful Festus, thank you. However having read the Bible cover to cover once already I have no will to repeat the act in the hope of happening upon a specific reference out of tens of thousands, it's quite lengthy you see. Some people here study the bible in a professional capacity, others in a extremely devoted lay study. I thought asking here, therefore, would be a quicker method of gaining this information. Add to that the fact that the first sentence of my post was posed as a question specifically as to the opinions of the people that post here, which as far as I can remember from my first reading, are not contained in the Bible, I felt it better to just make my post here.

Sincerely, Strobe.

Cavehill Red

It would probably be useful for the OP and others if people making definitive statements (no free will for Satan, Hell is a prison of the mind, Heaven is a holding pattern until your body is ressurected, etc) could offer some evidence for their assertions by either citing the relevant dogma from their creed to support them or citing biblical references which back up the assertion.

PDN

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

so everybody comes back to life eh

That's what the Bible says - some to spend eternity with Christ and some to go in the Lake of Fire.

PDN

strobe wrote: »

Is this a commonly held opinion? Is there scripture that suggests this? Wouldn't what Jimi said mean this is not the case?

The Bible calls Satan "the god of this world" in 2 Corinthians 4:4. The idea is that the world's systems and structures are influenced and controlled by Satan. So now you know who to really blame for the current economic mess.

What Jimmy said was something quite different, namely about the idea of Satan somehow ruling in Hell. The Bible indicates that Satan does not enter Hell until the Last Judgement, and then he goes there to be punished - not to rule over anyone or anything.

chucken1

PDN wrote: »

It says that it is a temporary state where you are in God's presence until the resurrection of your body from the dead.

Well I have to say,thats a new one on me. I never heard that MY BODY was rising from the dead?

Whats purgetory then?

PDN

chucken1 wrote: »

Well I have to say,thats a new one on me. I never heard that MY BODY was rising from the dead?

Whats purgetory then?

Your body rising from the dead is one of the basic doctrines of all Christian churches. Catholics, Anglicans and Orthodox Christians affirm their belief in it every time they recite the Apostles Creed or the Nicene Creed.

Purgatory is a Roman Catholic doctrine (not shared by other denominations) that those who are saved will be purged from their sins in purgatory, prior to heaven and prior to the general resurrection from the dead.

georgieporgy

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

What is heaven supposed to be like, I mean what does it say in the bible, you'll be perfectly happy etc?

the bible says "eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man, what things God has in store for him that loves Him."

(quoting from memory so hope I got it right). In other words it's gonna be ok in heaven. We can't in this life imagine what it's going to be like.

ditto for the other place, but sure as hell you won't be ok there!

Festus

strobe wrote: »

Extremely helpful Festus, thank you. However having read the Bible cover to cover once already I have no will to repeat the act in the hope of happening upon a specific reference out of tens of thousands, it's quite lengthy you see. Some people here study the bible in a professional capacity, others in a extremely devoted lay study. I thought asking here, therefore, would be a quicker method of gaining this information. Add to that the fact that the first sentence of my post was posed as a question specifically as to the opinions of the people that post here, which as far as I can remember from my first reading, are not contained in the Bible, I felt it better to just make my post here.

Sincerely, Strobe.

Try this then

or this

Festus

georgieporgy wrote: »

ditto for the other place, but sure as hell you won't be ok there!

Imagination can only go so far and there are various descriptions from burning torment to ...well

I've wondered recently what with some atheists thinking their immortality is based on the matter that makes them being eternal, Some will get a surprise later, what is the least level of an immortal hell.

The soul is immortal and most of us take it that our soul when released will contain our memories. There are probably loads of opinions but no matter, that's not the point.

So you're dead - but your soul is immortal. If you go to heaven or purgatory - great.
If you go to hell, not so great.

What if you don't believe in hell?

What if your soul stays trapped in your body as it rots away. No eyes to see, no ears to hear, no nerves to feel - in short no senses. Only thought.
Alone with only your thoughts for company. No sleeping, no dreaming just thinking.

I wonder how long it will be before that becomes hell.

Festus

PDN wrote: »

Purgatory is a Roman Catholic doctrine (not shared by other denominations) that those who are saved will be purged from their sins in purgatory, prior to heaven and prior to the general resurrection from the dead.

Not entirely true. It is commonly associated with Catholicism and in particular the latin rite however there are other believers in God who hold to a place of temporary suffering as reparation for sins committed before admission to Heaven.

URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory"]quote[/URL
The notion of purgatory is associated particularly with the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church (in the Eastern sui juris churches or rites it is a doctrine, though often without using the name "Purgatory"); Anglicans of the Anglo-Catholic tradition generally also hold to the belief. John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, believed in an intermediate state between death and the final judgment and in the possibility of "continuing to grow in holiness there", but Methodism does not officially affirm his belief and denies the possibility of helping by prayer any who may be in that state.[2] The Eastern Orthodox Churches believe in the possibility of a change of situation for the souls of the dead through the prayers of the living and the offering of the Divine Liturgy,[3] and many Orthodox, especially among ascetics, hope and pray for a general apocatastasis.[4] A similar belief in at least the possibility of a final salvation for all is held by Mormonism.[5] Judaism also believes in the possibility of after-death purification[6] and may even use the word "purgatory" to present its understanding of the meaning of Gehenna.[7] However, the concept of soul "purification" may be explicitly denied in these other faith traditions.

Catholicism may be more specific about Purgatory but it would be a half truth to suggest that no other faith or denomination has nothing to say on a half way house after death and before final salvation.

georgieporgy

To touch on the topic of purgatory a little bit more, when we RCC types try to teach our children the concept, we often use an example like a schoolboy playing football who breaks a neighbour's window. He goes around to apologise and the neighbour forgives him. However, although forgiven,the window remains broken so the kid has to do some work to get the cash to repair it. When that is done then everyone knows he was truly sorry for the misdemeanor because he has done his best to repair the damage.
The problem is if the kid dies before fixing the window, the neighbour is left with a broken window - who should fix it?
The insurance company (the Church) will. It uses the voluntary contributiouns of all members to make good the damage here and there as needed. The guilty party (in this example the kid) cannot enter heaven till he has "paid the last penny", so he waits in purgatory till the damage has been repaired.

now there is a bit more to it than that, but that is what we tell our kids. We hope when they grow up they will do further (more adult) study. Alas most catholics don't open a book on religion ever again so no wonder they are often a bad example to 'outsiders'
(did I go off topic? )

Blueboyd

The thing is the devil was an angel like any other angel but when God created man God told angels to protect and serve man - but one angel refused - he loved God and not man - so God's ultimate punishment was to send him away from Heaven - and the last thing that angel heard from God - whom he loved the most - was "Go to hell".


This reminds quite a lot some of us who love God so much that we refuse to serve man. This is of course totally different from Jesus who came here for the man. So the devil in everyone wants to distract us and wants us to build monuments for God and not be like Jesus. But Jesus said: "I am the way."

dvae

Blueboyd wrote: »

The thing is the devil was an angel like any other angel but when God created man God told angels to protect and serve man - but one angel refused - he loved God and not man - so God's ultimate punishment was to send him away from Heaven - and the last thing that angel heard from God - whom he loved the most - was "Go to hell".


This reminds quite a lot some of us who love God so much that we refuse to serve man. This is of course totally different from Jesus who came here for the man. So the devil in everyone wants to distract us and wants us to build monuments for God and not be like Jesus. But Jesus said: "I am the way."

Who is this "one angle" you talk about?
I presume you mean Satan.
I really don't think Satan loved God when he tricked Eve into eating the fruit.
Satan was still able to enter into heaven after the hole Adam/Eve incident

Rowley Birkin QC

PDN wrote: »

If you use your free will to consistently reject God, then perhaps you reach the point where you become so evil that you are incapable of doing good.

So by rejecting the existence of a god I am on a course, according to your beliefs, that, potentially, will make me evil beyond redemption?

Festus

dvae wrote: »

Who is this "one angle" you talk about?
I presume you mean Satan.
I really don't think Satan loved God when he tricked Eve into eating the fruit.
Satan was still able to enter into heaven after the hole Adam/Eve incident

That's a bit obtuse