Rumen Fluke

sea12

Lost a ewe last week in the big freeze. It was a good strong ewe with a full mouth and they had access to plenty of hay. So when i bought to the knackery i asked him to check for fluke.

He rang back to say that "She was riddled with stomach fluke"

What dose does anyone use for rumen fluke?

whelan1

in cows we use zanil or levamas (sp)

LostCovey

sea12 wrote: »

Lost a ewe last week in the big freeze. It was a good strong ewe with a full mouth and they had access to plenty of hay. So when i bought to the knackery i asked him to check for fluke.

He rang back to say that "She was riddled with stomach fluke"

What dose does anyone use for rumen fluke?

Hi sea12,

Would you really go out and dose your flock based on a knacker's casual opinion of one ewe carcass??????

Would you not have slight doubts about a "good strong ewe" having dropped dead??? Of Rumen Fluke??? With no weight loss or scour???

Sure you might as well ask him to recommend a dose while he is at it.

I don't expect everyone will agree, I suspect but you are jumping to choosing a cure without any evidence for what you are trying to cure.

LostCovey

whelan1

very helpful lc:rolleyes:

LostCovey

whelan1 wrote: »

very helpful lc:rolleyes:

whelan1,

I think I will ignore the predictable sneer.

I was trying to point out that the OP might be putting the cart before the horse. This is the sequence of events:

- a "good strong ewe" drops dead
- the owner asked a knacker what caused the sudden death. The knacker tells him/her something or other, as they do. I personally wouldn't ask the guy in the scrapyard why my car failed the NCT. It might not be the best way to find out.
- on this occasion, the owner was told that this sudden death was caused by a heavy burden of rumen fluke, a parasite that doesn't cause sudden deaths in mid-winter, and causes severe scour and weight loss (in the rare instances where it causes any illness)
- the owner goes on the internet and asks an anonymised forum for advice on selecting a dose to kill a parasite that in all likelihood had nothing to do with the death of his/her ewe
- and misses out on doing anything about preventing the next sudden death
- I suggest that this might not be the best way to proceed
- I get sneered at!

Happy Christmas boardsies!

LostCovey

whelan1

blocked again :rolleyes: how come EVERY discussion on boards about rumen fluke ends messed up

snowman707

, strong ewe drops dead , are the rest of the flock showing ill thrift? sheep can indeed drop dead from fluke, but may have other ailments

I would suspect one of the Clostridial Diseases, Have the flock been vaccinated.? and received their booster?

best to discuss with your Vet cos stomach fluke is rare in sheep

Dosing , Zanil , Levafas Diamond, will cover stomach fluke, otherwise I would use Duotech at this time of year.

BTW Lefavas Diamond is not allowed for cows or any animals producing milk for human consumption

as I've said best to discuss with your vet and if sending any lambs or culls to the factory or abattoir , ask for a pm there,
hopefully won't happen but if you have any further losses, try to get the carcass to a regional vet lab.

5live

Zanil is the only dose approved for use against stomach fluke. As lost covey said, if there was no scour then it is doubtful if stomach fluke killed it. As snowman said, clostridial diseases would be a more likely killer or indeed liverfluke. I would think dosing for liverfluke and topping up on your 8in 1 would be a more appropriate way to go

5live

whelan1 wrote: »

very helpful lc:rolleyes:

Jesus W1. What exactly is factually incorrect with what LC said? Maybe the tone was a bit OTT but the facts,IMO, are all in favour of LC on this one

whelan1

in fairness the op just asked WHAT to use against rumen fluke , he didnt say he was going to do the whole flock but as i am a "predictable sneer" i will refrain from posting on this thread again

LostCovey

whelan1 wrote: »

in fairness the op just asked WHAT to use against rumen fluke , he didnt say he was going to do the whole flock but as i am a "predictable sneer" i will refrain from posting on this thread again

Ahhh don't go. You're great craic.

I assumed he/ she would dose everything - if Sea12 believed what was said by the knacker, it would make sense to dose everything.

I think Sea12 has got a lot of solid sensible advice out of this thread (not from me to be honest as I was too busy questioning the assumptions he/she was making).

Apologies if the tone got up anyone's nose, it wasn't intended.

LC

sea12

All ewes did receive their booster injection this year.
I asked the knackery about "Liver fluke" as I need to dose the ewes as I normally dose for liver fluke now and in Feb.
I wanted to find out the condition of the liver in general as I read in recent dept of ag reports that it is a particular problem this year.

Knackery rang back and said she was riddled with stomach fluke. Didnt say that is what killed her but was just letting me know. Seeing as he does cut up animals every day I would take his view on it. I was just wondering what do other people use for this as I know it is only in recent years that it has come out.

Thanks for the relevant replies.

dar31

cant see what the problem is with asking the knackery to check for fluke/ worms etc. they are knee deep in it every day and would have as good an idea as any of them. and a lot cheaper that a vet doing a pm to check for said.
in fairness though, wouldn't ask for much more.

had a pm done on a cow that keeled over due to a old stomach abscess.
while he was in there he examined every thing else. there was 30% of the liver destroyed from fatty liver disease which was indirectly caused by rumen fluke which had been a problem 9 month previous

morning delight

If they have a heavy enough infestation they can die suddenly, even before developing diarrhoea. Disease from rumen fluke is relatively new on the scene so I'm not so sure how well it's various clinical manifestations are understood at this stage. It was known to exist was not considered to cause any problems.

Sheep die suddenly for alot of reasons though, and the fact there were rumen fluke present may just be an incidental finding.

As others suggest, its best to talk to your vet at a minimum, and look at getting the next dead one to a regional veterinary lab where you will get an expert opinion on it. Alternatively your own vet may do a PM on it.

LostCovey

dar31 wrote: »

there was 30% of the liver destroyed from fatty liver disease which was indirectly caused by rumen fluke which had been a problem 9 month previous

dar31, read that again and think about what you have written.

To anyone who has had any dealings whatsoever with liver fluke, fatty liver disease, or rumen flukes, or has read anything about it, that sentence makes NO SENSE.

You did not say who did that post mortem test (knacker or vet), but they should get the Booker prize for fiction,

LostCovey

John_F

an information booklet is available from animal health ireland

http://www.animalhealthireland.ie/pdf/AHI-RumenFlukefv2.pdf

my understanding of it from listening to vets is that similar to liver fluke it requires a primary and secondary host (animal and a snail) but the snail in liver fluke is found in wet areas e.g. bogs and wet grass land. But the snail needed for the cycle for rumen fluke is a snail in waterways particularly down stream. As we have had many wet seasons in the past, particularly flooding in late 09 meant the snail came on to pasture and thus creating the cycle.

Talk to your vet, and do research. maybe dung sample?? Rumen fluke is a big problem in France and Australia

snowman707

Rumen fluke is the "in thing" this year, mostly through much info from media and internet sources

other years we had copper def. ibr bvd etc. etc,

I have been keeping sheep for almost 45 years and while I am not saying the the sheep in question did not have rumen fluke, I would be slow to think that it was the primary cause of dead in this instance


as I said, a pm in the vet lab is worth while, someone mentioned that it was money wasted, I would disagree .

dar31

LostCovey wrote: »

dar31, read that again and think about what you have written.

To anyone who has had any dealings whatsoever with liver fluke, fatty liver disease, or rumen flukes, or has read anything about it, that sentence makes NO SENSE.

You did not say who did that post mortem test (knacker or vet), but they should get the Booker prize for fiction,

LostCovey

sorry lc what part didnt make sense to you, if there is some thing wrong with what i said please point it out to me.

it was the vet that done the pm, as a knackery cant really do a pm they can only take a look inside and make an observation based on experience

greysides

The adult stomach fluke in the rumen are harmless but highly visible.

The problems are caused by immatures in the upper small intestine which cause scour/blood loss/weight loss.

Stomach fluke are released from an aquatic snail, not a mud snail, not an amphibious snail..............a water-living, water-dependent snail that gets 'beached' during flooding. Consequently shouldn't be a major problem this year in most locations.

LostCovey

dar31 wrote: »

there was 30% of the liver destroyed from fatty liver disease which was indirectly caused by rumen fluke which had been a problem 9 month previous

Dar31,

Fatty liver is the accumulation of fat in the liver as the animal breaks down reserves of body fat to make up for inadequate dietary energy (ie carbohydrate intake). Linking it to a parasite that your animals had nearly a year ago seems somewhat suspect. Calling it fiction may have been a little harsh, but it certainly makes no sense whatever.

morning delight wrote: »

If they have a heavy enough infestation they can die suddenly, even before developing diarrhoea.

MorningDelight,

I do not believe this is true - what are you basing this on? Heavy infestations of rumen fluke cause death by dehydration - fluid loss - through diarrhoea.

The idea that animals that drop dead with no other signs due to rumen fluke is probably new to science, and I would love to hear more about this discovery.

LC

LostCovey

greysides wrote: »

The adult stomach fluke in the rumen are harmless but highly visible.

The problems are caused by immatures in the upper small intestine which cause scour/blood loss/weight loss.

Stomach fluke are released from an aquatic snail, not a mud snail, not an amphibious snail..............a water-living, water-dependent snail that gets 'beached' during flooding. Consequently shouldn't be a major problem this year in most locations.

Beautifully put.

The information leaflet from Animal Health Ireland linked above says that the larvae go from the snail to vegetation under water, and become available to grazing livestock when the water levels drop.

LostCovey

dar31

LostCovey wrote: »

Dar31,

Fatty liver is the accumulation of fat in the liver as the animal breaks down reserves of body fat to make up for inadequate dietary energy (ie carbohydrate intake).

very good, now how would rumen fluke lead to inadequate dietary energy and in turn lead to fatty liver
as i said "there was 30% of the liver destroyed from fatty liver disease which was indirectly caused by rumen fluke"

LostCovey

dar31 wrote: »

LostCovey wrote: »

Dar31,

Fatty liver is the accumulation of fat in the liver as the animal breaks down reserves of body fat to make up for inadequate dietary energy (ie carbohydrate intake).

very good, now how would rumen fluke lead to inadequate dietary energy and in turn lead to fatty liver
as i said "there was 30% of the liver destroyed from fatty liver disease which was indirectly caused by rumen fluke"

Dar,

If we keep repeating ourselves we will bore everybody and burn a hole in the internet.

You said they had rumen fluke 9 months earlier - no reason to believe that was connected. I assume you treated them - in which case it is ahistoric incident in the previous lactation

Fatty liver disease does not destroy the liver like a mouse eating cheese. The liver accumulates fat, as the cow's body tries to break it down very fast to get energy to make up for the distary shortage, faster than the liver can get rid of it, so you get a fatty liver.

If your spouse put on a few stone would you say he/she was 30% destroyed?

Don't answer that.

LostCovey

dar31

LostCovey wrote: »

dar31 wrote: »

Dar,

If we keep repeating ourselves we will bore everybody and burn a hole in the internet.

You said they had rumen fluke 9 months earlier - no reason to believe that was connected. I assume you treated them - in which case it is ahistoric incident in the previous lactation

Fatty liver disease does not destroy the liver like a mouse eating cheese. The liver accumulates fat, as the cow's body tries to break it down very fast to get energy to make up for the distary shortage, faster than the liver can get rid of it, so you get a fatty liver.

If your spouse put on a few stone would you say he/she was 30% destroyed?

Don't answer that.

LostCovey

nothing like a few personal jabs, to make a point.

the animal in question had rumen fluke(tested for), which led to poor rumen function at a time when they were on a high enegry diet, this high level of enegry couldnt be processed by the rumen and started to build up in the liver leading to part of the liver becoming ineffective. the affected part of the liver isnt eaten away, it is just rendered useless.

LostCovey

dar31 wrote: »

LostCovey wrote: »

nothing like a few personal jabs, to make a point.

the animal in question had rumen fluke(tested for), which led to poor rumen function at a time when they were on a high enegry diet, this high level of enegry couldnt be processed by the rumen and started to build up in the liver leading to part of the liver becoming ineffective. the affected part of the liver isnt eaten away, it is just rendered useless.

Dar31,

If you read ANY personal jab in any of that, you have a very active imagination.

Why don't we both stop digging, this is going nowhere.

A very Happy Christmas to you and yours. There's more to life than this.

LostCovey