Is Irish DTT/Saorview becoming a bit of a "Racket"?

liamtech

A slightly different point of view on Saorview for you folks:

While im delighted (Truely delighted) that RTE2 is now in HD (OK , i know its not true HD but hey, its better than SD), i cant help but feel this is yet another in a long line of decisions that have been taken which will cost your average user in the end:

First there was what i consider to be the gobsmacking idea not to offer Saorview in MPEG2 - No while i accept the benifits of MPEG4, i must also accept that we are not rich in this country- ANd considering the amount of UK Freeview TV's out there and the fact that for 8+ years all of our TVS come from the UK, a much greater MPEG2 market exists in ireland - It was here before our DTT Test service which concluded last year even began. A regular user who bought a TV 4-5 years ago would almost certainly have had Freeview built in - So i just cant help wondering who benefits from this mpeg4 over DVB-t standard - Shops, Manufacturers - YES - USERS - Not really

Then we started to see cheap enough MPEG4 SD receivers apearing on the web and in certain stores - Again i go back to your average Joe who doesnt give a toss about digital teletext or over the air updates - He/she is only interested in watching TV - and up until last week, at least for rte1, 2, TV3, and TG4, an cheap SD Receiver was perfectly fine -

SO what do they go and do.... Well we all know at this stage - RTE2 is now in HD with a backup service for people with "NON OFFICIAL" UNSUPPORTED digi boxes - The only reason for this that i can see is of course - MONEY. SAORVIEW/RTE-NL want to completely control the flow of DIgi Boxes and obviously get a cut of all those sold - If thats not a racket, i dont know what is.

SO your average user, who bought a perfectly reasonable MPEG4 box, who doesnt care about HD, MHEG5, DIgital teletext or anything else they think up, is screwed - ANd while you may blame sellers on ebay, i dont blame them - They took the initiative and sold in most cases a reasonable product, fit for standard no bells and whistles viewing -

This is another sad chapter of big business screwing the little guy, and it makes me sick

watty

MPEG2: Truely wastefull and would be a kick in the teeth to Consumers. It uses x2 to x3 the spectrum for same channels, or 1/2 to 1/3 as many channels in same spectrum. Totally obsolete.

The MPEG4 SD receivers are cheap because they are scrap. It's product dumping. Picnic made for a service that never launced. They are obsolete. UK HD MPEG4 DVB-T2 boxes are now down to under £45 after DVB-T2 only existing ANYWHERE for just over a year. These boxes ALL do MHEG5 and work on Soarview.

SD is mandatory on SCART for Freesat HD, Freeview HD and Saorview set boxes to allow old non-HD TVs. HDTVs without MPEG4 can use setbox via HDMI for HD.

It was obvious nearly 5 years ago that Irish DTT should be compatible with HD and MPEG4 as a minimum level. The published spec for Irish DTT will be THREE years old by full launch in 2011.

Simultaneous SD & HD transmission is huge waste of spectrum, reduces number of channels possible, or if you add more spectrum, then it wastes electricity too. Only countries with existing DTTusing MPEG2 that are adding HD using MPEG4 have simultaneous transmission. ALL HD rollouts are MPEG4. All new rollouts with any planned HD in next few years have MPEG4 + HD as minimum spec.

The ONLY issue is DVB-T vs DVB-T2. DTT was supposed to start rolling out 1 or 2 years ago. DVB-T2 transmissions ANYWHERE only started last year. Hence the decision to go for DVB-T + MPEG4 + HD. UK uses MHEG5 for Freeview, Freeview HD, Freesat and Freesat HD. The only other viable alternative for Middleware is MHP, which is Java based, needs more powerful CPU and costs more. Using the UK profile of MHEG5 means Saorview boxes/TVs mostly are OK for Freeview too, and Freeview HD boxes/TVs work for Saorview and Freeview.

Re-read http://www.saortv.info and http://www.techtir.ie/saortv

Your "conspiracy" theory doesn't hold water. Sorry.
All DVB-T2 boxes and TVs work on Saorview anyway.

liamtech

watty wrote: »

MPEG2: Truely wastefull and would be a kick in the teeth to Consumers. It uses x2 to x3 the spectrum for same channels, or 1/2 to 1/3 as many channels in same spectrum. Totally obsolete.

The MPEG4 SD receivers are cheap because they are scrap. It's product dumping. Picnic made for a service that never launced. They are obsolete. UK HD MPEG4 DVB-T2 boxes are now down to under £45 after DVB-T2 only existing ANYWHERE for just over a year. These boxes ALL do MHEG5 and work on Soarview.

SD is mandatory on SCART for Freesat HD, Freeview HD and Saorview set boxes to allow old non-HD TVs. HDTVs without MPEG4 can use setbox via HDMI for HD.

It was obvious nearly 5 years ago that Irish DTT should be compatible with HD and MPEG4 as a minimum level. The published spec for Irish DTT will be THREE years old by full launch in 2011.

Simultaneous SD & HD transmission is huge waste of spectrum, reduces number of channels possible, or if you add more spectrum, then it wastes electricity too. Only countries with existing DTTusing MPEG2 that are adding HD using MPEG4 have simultaneous transmission. ALL HD rollouts are MPEG4. All new rollouts with any planned HD in next few years have MPEG4 + HD as minimum spec.

The ONLY issue is DVB-T vs DVB-T2. DTT was supposed to start rolling out 1 or 2 years ago. DVB-T2 transmissions ANYWHERE only started last year. Hence the decision to go for DVB-T + MPEG4 + HD. UK uses MHEG5 for Freeview, Freeview HD, Freesat and Freesat HD. The only other viable alternative for Middleware is MHP, which is Java based, needs more powerful CPU and costs more. Using the UK profile of MHEG5 means Saorview boxes/TVs mostly are OK for Freeview too, and Freeview HD boxes/TVs work for Saorview and Freeview.

Re-read http://www.saortv.info and http://www.techtir.ie/saortv

Your "conspiracy" theory doesn't hold water. Sorry.
All DVB-T2 boxes and TVs work on Saorview anyway.

I understand your point of view, and its a valid one, to everyone on this forum, and everyone with a half understanding of DVB standards:

But try telling that to an average joe :

EXAMPLE:

A user saves up some cash and buys a cheap enough LCD TV - Because it came from the UK it states in big letters "DIGITAL READY"

This user then hears that the irish digital system is up and running albeit only on a test basis: BUT WAIT - "ALL I GET IS SOUND, NO PICTURE!"

DAMN! Whats wrong, is my TV Faulty?

NO - Ireland being such a well run, up to date and efficiently run state, has decided to use MPEG4 which is incompatable with our nearest neighbors TV Sets bla bla bla bla

SO he then gets told, the following:

You can upgrade your TV with a CAM Card which will convert mpeg4 to MPEG 2 etc But only if your TV is compatable

-or-

Go and buy a MPEG4 Box

As far as im aware there are around 4 hd Mpeg 4 boxes around at the moment, and they are relatively cheap - FREEVIEW HD boxes were mentioned - Try telling that to the guy who bought a HD TV c/w FREEVIEW:

Lovely play on words i agree, but obviously thats a UK issue

While you say MPEG2 is out of date, i say the majority of TV's in ireland are out of date, and therefore some consideration should have been given to MPEG2:

It might be cheaper and more efficient to run MPEG 4, but all they did is move the cost onto the user/viewer, who now has to fork out for yet another box - and for what - RTE1, 2, TV3, and TG4?

I would for the record state i have a fully saorview compatible TV with full MHEG5 support, and i love it: But then im a geek, who builds computers in his spare time, spends 30 hours a week on the web, and is relatively up to date on this sort of thing.

My point is not to ditch MPEG4, but simply point out that if they had used MPEG2, NO SET TOP BOXES WOULD BE NECESSARY! AT ALL! Most of ireland hasnt even got the foggiest what HD, or DVB-T2 is etc They just wanna watch the hurling on RTE2 - and come april if there using the digital, the new technology of the future etc - They wont be able too:

A simple solution here is to keep an SD version of RTE1, 2, TV3, and TG4 for your basic users - If RTENL feel the need to continuely try and coax them into buying a blessed Saorview box, so be it - But last time i checked, WE PAY for RTE NL - through our license fees -

Incidentally watty i wasn't putting out a conspiracy theory - There is no conspiracy - Its plain in writing for all to see - just depends on your point of view:

Lastly i meant no offense to anyone in this point - In making it, i am just checking if anyone else feels as i do

Johnmb

liamtech wrote: »

NO - Ireland being such a well run, up to date and efficiently run state, has decided to use MPEG4 which is incompatable with our nearest neighbors TV Sets bla bla bla bla

Actually, this is because Ireland is up to date, and not using the out of date technology that the UK are using, and having to duplicate their channels in order to go HD. We don't have to duplicate any channels to do that because we are using the most up to date specs (almost).

The main problem I have with them is the DVB-T v DVB-T2 issue. They should have made the specs for the boxes to get certified DVB-T2. They've only just started that process, so it could have been done, and it would have future-proofed the boxes, and since it's backwards compatible it wouldn't have caused any problems for the current set-up. Now, we'll pretty much be stuck with DVB-T limits for a long time because they won't be able to use the better technology without changing everyones' TV/STB. That'll put them in the same boat as the UK are in re the MPEG2 v MPEG4 situation, stuck with things as they spent too much time and money encouraging people to buy the boxes/TVs with the inferior tech.

fat-tony

liamtech - I too, am concerned at the complexity of decision-making required of the average joe or joan citizen when purchasing what, on the face of it, is just a telly. I feel the TV trade and the Dept. of Communications have sorely let down the people of Ireland with the abysmal lack of information on the subject of digital TV.

But, you need to move on as regards MPEG-2! As a codec it just doesn't cut it. Without MPEG-4 we effectively would not have HD TV. I can't agree with your point about not needing set top boxes if we had adopted the MPEG-2 standard, whatever about HD. The are lots of CRT TVs in the country incapable of tuning digital transmissions. There are lots of HD TVs (I have two), purchased in the past two or three years which have no digital tuners because they are Irish models or whatever. Any of those would require some form of STB to receive Saorview, irrespective of the video compression standard used.

liamtech

Johnmb wrote: »

Actually, this is because Ireland is up to date, and not using the out of date technology that the UK are using, and having to duplicate their channels in order to go HD. We don't have to duplicate any channels to do that because we are using the most up to date specs (almost).

The main problem I have with them is the DVB-T v DVB-T2 issue. They should have made the specs for the boxes to get certified DVB-T2. They've only just started that process, so it could have been done, and it would have future-proofed the boxes, and since it's backwards compatible it wouldn't have caused any problems for the current set-up. Now, we'll pretty much be stuck with DVB-T limits for a long time because they won't be able to use the better technology without changing everyones' TV/STB. That'll put them in the same boat as the UK are in re the MPEG2 v MPEG4 situation, stuck with things as they spent too much time and money encouraging people to buy the boxes/TVs with the inferior tech.

The MPEG2 issue is dead and burried at this stage - But i will say this - ITs the user who ends up shelling out money for a MPEG4 box - If they had have gone MPEG2, no boxes required!

As regards the benefits of MPEG4, sure there are some - But im saying its not fair on people who bought an MPEG4 SD box. There are very few people using this service and if all the channels go HD, then there will be only us few faithful - All im asking is PLEASE! to prevent further cost on the viewers, leave an SD version of the four main Terrestrial stations intact

Johnmb

liamtech wrote: »

The MPEG2 issue is dead and burried at this stage - But i will say this - ITs the user who ends up shelling out money for a MPEG4 box - If they had have gone MPEG2, no boxes required!t

That's not really true either. There are 3 TVs in my house, only one is capable of picking up digital signals (and luckily it does MPEG4). There are many, many, many people in the same boat. They have to buy a STB, or new TV, in order to receive digital, irrelevant as to whether it is MPEG2 or MPEG4. Given that simple fact, it is better that they use the most up to date version, in order to provide some form of future proofing.

watty

liamtech wrote: »

The MPEG2 issue is dead and burried at this stage - But i will say this - ITs the user who ends up shelling out money for a MPEG4 box - If they had have gone MPEG2, no boxes required!

As regards the benefits of MPEG4, sure there are some - But im saying its not fair on people who bought an MPEG4 SD box. There are very few people using this service and if all the channels go HD, then there will be only us few faithful - All im asking is PLEASE! to prevent further cost on the viewers, leave an SD version of the four main Terrestrial stations intact

Sorry. But this is patent nonsense.

Proper Setboxes are inexpensive and downsample the HD to SD for older TVs. This is better than 405 to 625 changeover (a converter was 100x price of a dual standard or 625 TV). Or situation with Colour. (no way to add colour to a B&W TV).

You are demanding that there be 30% less stations or and extra €40M spent on roll out and millions more each year on Electricity to help a very few people that went out and bought the wrong box.

It would be absolute mind numbing stupidity and waste to simulcast SD and HD on Saorview.

To do DTT rollout on MPEG2 anytime since 2006 is probably irresponsible. Twice to Three times the running costs for same number of channels, and forced to Simulcast HD, or very likely 1/2 as many or 1/3rd as many stations per multiplex.

Widescreen

You can upgrade your TV with a CAM Card which will convert mpeg4 to MPEG 2 etc But only if your TV is compatable

-or-

Go and buy a MPEG4 Box


Just on this point, I have an LG 19 INCH TV bought late 2007 for the kitchen. Earlier this year I upgraded to an LG 22 inch which is DTT compatible,and moved the 19 inch to the bedroom. Just for the crack the other night I tried again to download the digital channels from woodcock hill. They all tuned in but obviously theres only sound on the tv channels.The information works as does the Digital Text. I noticed a slot on the back of the TV labelled PCMCIA card. Do you think this TV could be upgraded with a CAM Card? thanks

Sam Russell

No, cams do not work.

Gerry Wicklow

The biggest crime in all of this is the continuing lack of a proper public information campaign.
How many more people are going to get burned this xmas buying unsuitable gear?

fat-tony

Widescreen wrote: »

You can upgrade your TV with a CAM Card which will convert mpeg4 to MPEG 2 etc But only if your TV is compatable

-or-

Go and buy a MPEG4 Box


Just on this point, I have an LG 19 INCH TV bought late 2007 for the kitchen. Earlier this year I upgraded to an LG 22 inch which is DTT compatible,and moved the 19 inch to the bedroom. Just for the crack the other night I tried again to download the digital channels from woodcock hill. They all tuned in but obviously theres only sound on the tv channels.The information works as does the Digital Text. I noticed a slot on the back of the TV labelled PCMCIA card. Do you think this TV could be upgraded with a CAM Card? thanks

No CAMs please ! Won't provide HD (which is a requirement) and tend to run very hot.
Have a look here http://www.saortv.info/terrestrial-saorview/the-black-list/

Tom Slick

liamtech wrote: »

. . . leave an SD version of the four main Terrestrial stations intact

Analogue?

homer911

Sam Russell wrote: »

No, cams do not work.

Thats a bit of a blunt statment IMO.

Cams will work if...

• Your TV is compatable with MPEG 2 and with the Cam card
• The card is MPEG4 compatable
• You dont mind not watching RTE2 after April 18th next
• The card doesnt overheat on you

Johnmb

homer911 wrote: »

Thats a bit of a blunt statment IMO.

Cams will work if...

• Your TV is compatable with MPEG 2 and with the Cam card
• The card is MPEG4 compatable
• You dont mind not watching RTE2 after April 18th next
• The card doesnt overheat on you

IOW, CAMs don't work. You will not receive the full Saorview service with one. Sure, an old analogue TV will work by this logic if....

[*]You don't mind not watching Irish TV after late 2012

fat-tony

That's a lot of "ifs" Homer! Once RTE get their HD playout system more channels wil go HD. Not good advice to be suggesting CAMs.

Macy0161

liamtech wrote: »

As regards the benefits of MPEG4, sure there are some - But im saying its not fair on people who bought an MPEG4 SD box.

A lot of people brought SD boxes, cheap, with the knowledge that they wouldn't work long term. (False economy or not, they'll work through to full launch and hopefully a bigger range of options).

I would agree there's a big lack of knowledge over DTT (and digital tele given some of the "experts" I've heard discuss TV options in the last few years with no knowledge of FTA satellite for example). A large part of this is the Minister/ Department and RTE in my opinion.

However, a hell of a lot of it is to do with retailers choosing to be ignorant, particularly the large UK (and German tbf) retailers who must have known. Powercity must've been flagging "Irish DTT Ready" for the guts of year at this stage, whereas other retailers are still selling basic freeview TV's as "digital ready".

watty

Macy0161 wrote: »

A lot of people brought SD boxes, cheap, with the knowledge that they wouldn't work long term. (False economy or not, they'll work through to full launch and hopefully a bigger range of options).
.

Actually in the "population" hardly anyone did.

About 0.01 % of people maybe...

Or maybe you mean Most people buying SD boxes had read the warnings here and bought them anyway as a cheap short term thing just to see what DTT was all about.

Which is fair enough cheap fun and less than a good meal out for two?

I had loads of DTT stuff to look at due to "day job" so only recently actually bought anything.
A DTT dual tuner stick.

Maybe April/May we will get a Living room PVR. Soon enough IMO.

3 x PC PVRs for sat, 2 x sat receivers (used to have 4 sky boxes, but one died and gave two away).

Full launch isn't till May. But I shall be irked if there is not some real money spent on DSO Awareness soon. With messages that make sense. :mad:

Macy0161

watty wrote: »

Or maybe you mean Most people buying SD boxes had read the warnings here and bought them anyway as a cheap short term thing just to see what DTT was all about.

Yeah, that's more what I meant. Assuming people who got them "early" did enough research to know what to get, they could hardly have avoided the advice/ info that they weren't the long term solution (for the price of a very cheap meal for two btw! )

watty wrote: »

Full launch isn't till May. But I shall be irked if there is not some real money spent on DSO Awareness soon. With messages that make sense. :mad:

I'd be hoping for more options by April 11th than there is at the moment, but agree they need to start advertising asap, given the misinformation I hear around the place anyway.

12 element

watty wrote: »

Full launch isn't till May. But I shall be irked if there is not some real money spent on DSO Awareness soon. With messages that make sense. :mad:

You can look forward to an advertising campaign in February, hopefully it will make sense!

tmcw

Tom Slick wrote: »

Analogue?

Heh, funny you mention analogue...

I got a Picnic box about a year ago, and got great value out of it. After RTE2 went off a week or so ago, I plugged the aerial into the Tv for an experiment and retuned the 4 analogue stations, and was quite impressed with the picture quality (on a CRT, analogue on an LCD isn't as good I find). I've been using it since, and probably won't go back to the Picnic box, hardly worth it for the extra sh!te that is e3, plus I'm saving electricity costs.

I'm going to hold off buying anything until I see what happens with Saorsat, and even then wait until the market matures giving me a good choice. I'm in a good signal area for analogue, so maybe that's a difference for me. Certinally, the "temp" RTE2 SD channel they put up seems very low bitrate as it's extremely blocky, so definitly not worth going back to the Picnic for that (actually, going to crack it open to see if there are any useful bits inside, I got my moneys worth from it), as it's possibly the channel I'd watch most out of the 4.

watty

The power cable?

It's built down to a price.

The PSU parts are maybe the only useful bits if you are into electronics.

copacetic

liamtech wrote: »

SO what do they go and do.... Well we all know at this stage - RTE2 is now in HD with a backup service for people with "NON OFFICIAL" UNSUPPORTED digi boxes - The only reason for this that i can see is of course - MONEY. SAORVIEW/RTE-NL want to completely control the flow of DIgi Boxes and obviously get a cut of all those sold - If thats not a racket, i dont know what is.

This is another sad chapter of big business screwing the little guy, and it makes me sick

Saorview is costing tens of millions, it's not making anyone any money. (Except the government/us from the potential digital dividend). There is no licensing cost except the cost of testing itself which goes to the test centre. There is also no control of the flow of boxes either. Anyone can sell a box compatible with saorview without a logo

Who are the 'big business' involved exactly?

liamtech

watty wrote: »

Sorry. But this is patent nonsense.

Proper Setboxes are inexpensive and downsample the HD to SD for older TVs. This is better than 405 to 625 changeover (a converter was 100x price of a dual standard or 625 TV). Or situation with Colour. (no way to add colour to a B&W TV).

You are demanding that there be 30% less stations or and extra €40M spent on roll out and millions more each year on Electricity to help a very few people that went out and bought the wrong box.

It would be absolute mind numbing stupidity and waste to simulcast SD and HD on Saorview.

To do DTT rollout on MPEG2 anytime since 2006 is probably irresponsible. Twice to Three times the running costs for same number of channels, and forced to Simulcast HD, or very likely 1/2 as many or 1/3rd as many stations per multiplex.

Theres sod all on digital - who are we gonna run out of space - 6SD and 1 HD - If its doable now, then why the hell cant it continue - This is about saorview charging companies for certification - and cornering the market to stop perfectly reasonable and decent SD boxes, for a country where 90% of people dont even realize a digital service exists - They just went to a shop and bought a HD Ready Digital Ready TV - when they should have bought a Digital HD ready TV - WOW what a difference - One TV ive come across actually had MPEG4 written on the PLastic Bezel - But as i found out later it was actually referring to TV's ability to play MPEG 4 or divx like files over the USB port -

This IRISH DTT service has been a farce from start to finish - We barely met the deadline to have the service up and running for 90% of the country - and now half the people that bought boxes lose RTE2, and inevitably RTE1 aswell - Total Farce, to line saorview and ultimately RTE-NL's pockets

And as for your comment on MPEG 2 costing more, well maybe it does - But id rather see "SAORVIEW" foot the bill than the consumers - IN the end by going MPEG 4 they created a NEW CAPTIVE MARKET

liamtech

Widescreen wrote: »

You can upgrade your TV with a CAM Card which will convert mpeg4 to MPEG 2 etc But only if your TV is compatable

-or-

Go and buy a MPEG4 Box


Just on this point, I have an LG 19 INCH TV bought late 2007 for the kitchen. Earlier this year I upgraded to an LG 22 inch which is DTT compatible,and moved the 19 inch to the bedroom. Just for the crack the other night I tried again to download the digital channels from woodcock hill. They all tuned in but obviously theres only sound on the tv channels.The information works as does the Digital Text. I noticed a slot on the back of the TV labelled PCMCIA card. Do you think this TV could be upgraded with a CAM Card? thanks

Up until last week i would have thought it could but now in all honesty youll have to fork out for a "proper certified saorview box" - because saorview will continue to make it impossible to use regular boxes or cams in the future

liamtech

fat-tony wrote: »

No CAMs please ! Won't provide HD (which is a requirement) and tend to run very hot.
Have a look here http://www.saortv.info/terrestrial-saorview/the-black-list/

WHy the hell does it have to be a requirement is exactly my point - There is no proper HD stuff on RTE - This is all an excuse to make money

liamtech

liamtech wrote: »

Theres sod all on digital - who are we gonna run out of space - 6SD and 1 HD - If its doable now, then why the hell cant it continue - This is about saorview charging companies for certification - and cornering the market to stop perfectly reasonable and decent SD boxes, for a country where 90% of people dont even realize a digital service exists - They just went to a shop and bought a HD Ready Digital Ready TV - when they should have bought a Digital HD ready TV - WOW what a difference - One TV ive come across actually had MPEG4 written on the PLastic Bezel - But as i found out later it was actually referring to TV's ability to play MPEG 4 or divx like files over the USB port -

This IRISH DTT service has been a farce from start to finish - We barely met the deadline to have the service up and running for 90% of the country - and now half the people that bought boxes lose RTE2, and inevitably RTE1 aswell - Total Farce, to line saorview and ultimately RTE-NL's pockets

And as for your comment on MPEG 2 costing more, well maybe it does - But id rather see "SAORVIEW" foot the bill than the consumers - IN the end by going MPEG 4 they created a NEW CAPTIVE MARKET

Going by this logic we should still be on 405 analogue! And the people who bought MPEG-4 SD boxes are a tiny amount - I'm sure 9 out of 10, if not more, are tech enthusiasts who bought one out of interest.

liamtech

copacetic wrote: »

Saorview is costing tens of millions, it's not making anyone any money. (Except the government/us from the potential digital dividend). There is no licensing cost except the cost of testing itself which goes to the test centre. There is also no control of the flow of boxes either. Anyone can sell a box compatible with saorview without a logo

Who are the 'big business' involved exactly?

BY chosing MPEG4 over MPeg2 they created a brand new market that didnt exist for higher price boxes. come february thats gonna become a growth industry

copacetic

liamtech wrote: »

Theres sod all on digital - who are we gonna run out of space - 6SD and 1 HD - If its doable now, then why the hell cant it continue - This is about saorview charging companies for certification - and cornering the market to stop perfectly reasonable and decent SD boxes, for a country where 90% of people dont even realize a digital service exists - They just went to a shop and bought a HD Ready Digital Ready TV - when they should have bought a Digital HD ready TV - WOW what a difference - One TV ive come across actually had MPEG4 written on the PLastic Bezel - But as i found out later it was actually referring to TV's ability to play MPEG 4 or divx like files over the USB port -

This IRISH DTT service has been a farce from start to finish - We barely met the deadline to have the service up and running for 90% of the country - and now half the people that bought boxes lose RTE2, and inevitably RTE1 aswell - Total Farce, to line saorview and ultimately RTE-NL's pockets

And as for your comment on MPEG 2 costing more, well maybe it does - But id rather see "SAORVIEW" foot the bill than the consumers - IN the end by going MPEG 4 they created a NEW CAPTIVE MARKET

Again, the only charge for certification is the testing charge itself, which goes directly to the independent testing company.

http://www.teracom.se/About-Teracom/IRDtest/

liamtech wrote: »

BY chosing MPEG4 over MPeg2 they created a brand new market that didnt exist for higher price boxes. come february thats gonna become a growth industry

Rubbish, these is a market of about 200million people across Europe requiring mpeg4 boxes, the couple of million of people in Ireland makes no difference at all to the market.

liamtech

copacetic wrote: »

Again, the only charge for certification is the testing charge itself, which goes directly to the independent testing company.

http://www.teracom.se/About-Teracom/IRDtest/



Rubbish, these is a market of about 200million people across Europe requiring mpeg4 boxes, the couple of million of people in Ireland makes no difference at all to the market.

why cant we have SD versions and HD versions of the same channels - Is it because of the great new subscription service being launched over terrestrial. Commercial MUX's that so many companies are eager to get the license for - OH Wait - The all told RTE-NL where to go didnt they - Awe ... to bad

12 element

liamtech wrote: »

This is about saorview charging companies for certification -

Saorview aren't charging people for certification, Teracom are.

fat-tony

liamtech wrote: »

WHy the hell does it have to be a requirement is exactly my point - There is no proper HD stuff on RTE - This is all an excuse to make money

There will be HD - soon:) RTENL have had to install the infrastructure, now RTE are installing the necessary playout equipment. MPEG-2 would not have supported HD. We must move on.

liamtech

12 element wrote: »

Saorview aren't charging people for certification, Teracom are.

So money is changing hands then - so there is money involved - and NCT for TV's and STB's! Laughable if not so stupid

barnicles

liamtech wrote: »

BY chosing MPEG4 over MPeg2 they created a brand new market that didnt exist for higher price boxes. come february thats gonna become a growth industry

They didn't choose MPEG4 to make money, they chose MPEG4 because it's more efficient, more up to date, and doesn't waste spectrum. There's no point in rolling out MPEG2 in 2010 because it's not cost effective and will eventually have to be upgraded anyway.

liamtech

barnicles wrote: »

They didn't choose MPEG4 to make money, they chose MPEG4 because it's more efficient, more up to date, and doesn't waste spectrum. There's no point in rolling out MPEG2 in 2010 because it's not cost effective and will eventually have to be upgraded anyway.

If we accept that - then why have they forced HD on us - why does every Saorview box have to be HD - can they not leave it up to the consumer to decide??

Il go one stop further and suggest that if they had left it to us , then the majority wouldnt have given a toss about HD and gone for a cheap |MPEG4 box - you have to think in term of someone who has an old TV, with a terrible analogue reception of RTE - They would be more than happy with an MPEG4 SD Box

Mr McBoatface

In my mind it's simple - The best available system/technology should be used at the time of introduction.

RTENL choose in mind the best system. DVB-T is proven and the benefits that DVB-T2 could have bought to the Irish consumer are minimal. Mpeg4 over Mpeg2 is a no-brainer IMO. Mpeg 4 Level 4 is a requirement for HD, HD is the future SD is the past. Simulcasting HD and SD is a waste of bandwidth.

As a licence payer and consumer I want HD over SD, where SD has to be broadcast I want it broadcast at the maximum SD resolution with high bit-rates..... this can't be achieved with simulcasting HD and SD. When the 2nd mux is turned on I want to see RTE1 & 2 and TV3 in HD. I hope the new film channel is also HD and the resolution and bitrate on SD channels is increased. None of this can be achieved is simulcasting is done.

I don't wish to sound harsh but if you bought the wrong equipment take it up with the shop who sold it to you.

12 element

liamtech wrote: »

So money is changing hands then - so there is money involved - and NCT for TV's and STB's! Laughable if not so stupid

So tell me then what RTE are gaining from the certification process? Have you visited the conspiracy theory forum yet?

fat-tony

+1
Perhaps this thread belongs more in the broadcasting forum as it's not really concerned with the technology but rather with who is going to make money from forcing us to have HD and MPEG-4?

liamtech

jobyrne30 wrote: »

In my mind it's simple - The best available system/technology should be used at the time of introduction.

RTENL choose in mind the best system. DVB-T is proven and the benefits that DVB-T2 could have bought to the Irish consumer are minimal. Mpeg4 over Mpeg2 is a no-brainer IMO. Mpeg 4 Level 4 is a requirement for HD, HD is the future SD is the past. Simulcasting HD and SD is a waste of bandwidth.

As a licence payer and consumer I want HD over SD, where SD has to be broadcast I want it broadcast at the maximum SD resolution with high bit-rates..... this can't be achieved with simulcasting HD and SD. When the 2nd mux is turned on I want to see RTE1 & 2 and TV3 in HD. I hope the new film channel is also HD and the resolution and bitrate on SD channels is increased. None of this can be achieved is simulcasting is done.

I don't wish to sound harsh but if you bought the wrong equipment take it up with the shop who sold it to you.

i see your point of view - I did buy proper equipment and i love HD - I have freesat HD and im scratching aq hole in my remote waiting for C4-HD (Might be waiting a while i suppose)

BUT!

You have to look at it from the point of view of regular people who are not up on this sort of thing . The original DTT tests years ago were in MPEG2 remember (Im talking about the very first ones like)

I also get your point about the MUX's and bandwidth But with all due respect no one is rushing to put stations on DTT - The commercial DTT project fell through not once, not twice but THREE TIMES!! lol

SO therefore we have all the bandwith we need for a stations to be broadcast in SD and HD - even if its only RTE1, 2, TV3, and TG4

Johnmb

Seriously, if someone bought the wrong box, that's unfortunate for them, but not a reason to downgrade the system to one that is effectively obsolete at this stage. Once the specs were confirmed, buying the wrong box/TV was just daft (unless you knowingly bought it as a stop-gap measure with the intention of seeing what better, working options came up closer to the launch, or it was the result of being mislead by dishonest/ignorant sales people in which case you'd have a good claim against them to replace your box/TV with one that works) and before they were confirmed buying any box/TV was a gamble.

emaherx

First they force colour on us, now they are going to make us watch RTE in HD. It's a disgrace I tells yea. Think of the children! Nobody needs to see Brian cowen in HD :0)

Mr McBoatface

Pay DTT and it's failure has nothing to do with this.

Regarding the extra channels I suspect they and the 2nd mux will be here sooner rather than later, I think April 18th or there abouts myself. The public channel line up which seems to be pretty well known at this stage will require two muxes and they would be nearly full to capacity. Personally I'd love a 3rd PSB mux so bitrates could be maxed out.

I do think the average person should be protected from retailers selling crap. That's more of a political issue than a broadcasting one IMO.

The fact is that most people including those just watching basic TV which is all free to air will continue to use SKY and UPC and the Freeview/Saorview/Freesat/Saorsat capabilities of their TV will mean nothing to them at all.

watty

Use the SCART on a proper Saorview box and you will be safe from HD.

We can't be transmitting HD and SD. That would be a tremendous waste of money.

mcwhirter

liamtech wrote: »

A slightly different point of view on Saorview for you folks:

While im delighted (Truely delighted) that RTE2 is now in HD (OK , i know its not true HD but hey, its better than SD), i cant help but feel this is yet another in a long line of decisions that have been taken which will cost your average user in the end:

First there was what i consider to be the gobsmacking idea not to offer Saorview in MPEG2 - No while i accept the benifits of MPEG4, i must also accept that we are not rich in this country- ANd considering the amount of UK Freeview TV's out there and the fact that for 8+ years all of our TVS come from the UK, a much greater MPEG2 market exists in ireland - It was here before our DTT Test service which concluded last year even began. A regular user who bought a TV 4-5 years ago would almost certainly have had Freeview built in - So i just cant help wondering who benefits from this mpeg4 over DVB-t standard - Shops, Manufacturers - YES - USERS - Not really

Then we started to see cheap enough MPEG4 SD receivers apearing on the web and in certain stores - Again i go back to your average Joe who doesnt give a toss about digital teletext or over the air updates - He/she is only interested in watching TV - and up until last week, at least for rte1, 2, TV3, and TG4, an cheap SD Receiver was perfectly fine -

SO what do they go and do.... Well we all know at this stage - RTE2 is now in HD with a backup service for people with "NON OFFICIAL" UNSUPPORTED digi boxes - The only reason for this that i can see is of course - MONEY. SAORVIEW/RTE-NL want to completely control the flow of DIgi Boxes and obviously get a cut of all those sold - If thats not a racket, i dont know what is.

SO your average user, who bought a perfectly reasonable MPEG4 box, who doesnt care about HD, MHEG5, DIgital teletext or anything else they think up, is screwed - ANd while you may blame sellers on ebay, i dont blame them - They took the initiative and sold in most cases a reasonable product, fit for standard no bells and whistles viewing -

This is another sad chapter of big business screwing the little guy, and it makes me sick

For the general punter it would help that what was required was explained in the form of tv adverts and leaflets, similar to what UK have been doing for years. Then they can't turn around and blame someone when they have bought the wrong incompatible tv.

Sam Russell

copacetic wrote: »

Again, the only charge for certification is the testing charge itself, which goes directly to the independent testing company.

http://www.teracom.se/About-Teracom/IRDtest/



Rubbish, these is a market of about 200million people across Europe requiring mpeg4 boxes, the couple of million of people in Ireland makes no difference at all to the market.

There is no legal requirement to get boxes certified for Saorview, except that certification is required to use the logo.

If a seller is confident that the product meets the standard, then the market will beat a path to his door to get the product (if it is much cheaper than the others). Otherwise, there may be a lot of customers looking for refunds.

There is no money in this for RTE NL, unless they get to keep the 'Digital Dividend' and they have two chances of that. Nor will RTE make anything out of this beyond the reduced cost of distribution. The benefits of Digital TV are:
1. the improved Picture Quality for the viewer,
2. The greater number of TV channels possible,
3. the possibility of HD TV,
4. the resale of surplus spectrum for novel use (probable for more mobile phone services).
5. The (now unlikely) commercial pay TV service.
6. The lower cost per channel for distribution.

None of these benefits go to RTE or RTE NL except the last one. It could be a bonanza for the TV trade. It could be a reason for many people to go and upgrade their elderly tellies. It could be bad news for UPC and $ky, in that many people will break out of the inertia, and break FREE, and cancel the drain on the wallet and go the FREE TV route - Saorview and Freesat.

But it is not a bonanza for RTE or RTE NL.

copacetic

Sam Russell wrote: »

There is no legal requirement to get boxes certified for Saorview, except that certification is required to use the logo.

If a seller is confident that the product meets the standard, then the market will beat a path to his door to get the product (if it is much cheaper than the others). Otherwise, there may be a lot of customers looking for refunds.

I know, I said that in the earlier post, where I also mentioned the digital dividend you mention above.
Did you mean to quote someone else?

copacetic wrote: »

Anyone can sell a box compatible with saorview without a logo

thetwangman

liamtech wrote: »

First there was what i consider to be the gobsmacking idea not to offer Saorview in MPEG2

Going with MPEG2 would have been a gobsmackingly bad idea. The necessity to broadcast the same channel in SD and HD in the UK is a rather unfortunate consequence of being an early adopter of digital. We have avoided that scenario. Deliberately choosing not to avoid such a scenario would have been a ridiculous decision. Having one channel that can broadcast in HD or SD, depending on the availability of HD material, is the same as having one channel that can broadcast in black and white or colour. Saorview has no need for two versions of the same channel and bravo to the people who made the right decision. I hope RTE TWO is never called RTE TWO HD. The suffix "COLOUR" wasn't added to channel names when they went colour. The suffix "HD" to channel names is a marketing scam by Sky and an unfortunate necessity for the BBC.

watty

RTE and RTENL between them with DTT Rollout and HD upgrades etc will have spent close to 100Million by 2012. Yet Government has cut their licence allocation and diverted some to TG4 and not spent a cent so far.

The Goverment claim they are allocating €3M for publicity. The amount so far mentioned for subsidies is laughable though.

For historic reasons take up of pay TV is about 80% here. Based on similar countries and UK, 52% to 56% could be considered saturation.

So when publicity about Saorview, and Freesat gets going I expect UPC and Sky to lose about 20% to 25% share.

Also though only 20% ENTIRELY rely on TV aerial, nearly 60% of people use a TV aerial as many Pay TV subscribers have other TVs not on Digital Multiroom.

UPC will eventually kill the Analogue as they need the spectrum for Broadband, HD and VOD. Sooner rather than later.

People cancelling Sky without changing the sky box discover they get MORE UK channels, but no Irish channels without an aerial.

People cancelling UPC historically in some places got still a basic line up. In the future they will get nothing and indeed without a subscription (unlike Satellite) are entitled to nothing.

Analogue coverage of RTE1 & 2 was always much poorer here than BBC/ITV/C4 in UK. TG4 was about 5% to 10% worse and TV3 was 20% to 25% worse.

Already Digital is better for many people that did have coverage but poor pictures. Coverage for TV3 is already well over 15% better. TG4 coverage is already better.

We now have TV3's 3e which while not a great channel was only PayTV till now.

People with Analogue / no pay TV up till now have had no Widescreen.

RTE themselves recommended folks get Freesat for UK TV.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=MAJ20100714.XML&Ex=All&Page=3

Mr. Conor Hayes:
The UK channels are available under an approach called Freesat, which is broadcast by a company owned by the BBC and ITV. They broadcast these channels in the clear over Ireland using a wide-band satellite operating in the KU band. RTE’s satellite option is a narrow-band satellite operating in the Ka band. One cannot get them on the same satellite. In the US, there are hybrid dishes available and householders can receive Ka band and Ku band signals. That is technically feasible and there are some 22 million households in the US using it. The cost of the dish is approximately $65.

also

Freesat is the brand name for most of the UK Free to Air Satellite TV from 28.2E (Mostly Astra2D)

Unlike a basic FTA (Free To Air Satellite) receiver it provides

* Detailed 7 day Program Guide (EPG)
* Automatic list of all Channels (no manual scan or edit of transponders needed)
* Interactive information and Advanced Text (Most Teletext is gone on UK Satellite)
* Over the Air software upgrades (Only some FTA receivers and not on the Freesat/Sky satellite position)

A version for the Irish market has been sold with "Sat4free" branding.

The channel line up is similar to but not the same as UK Freeview. There is an HD version, which picks up the non-HD channels and works with HDTV via HDMI or regular TV via SCART.
Content

List of Freesat Channels on Freesat.co.uk

Wikipedia's list of Freesat and Free channels from 28.2E & 28.5E

BBC1 HD
October 18th 2010: BBC TV channels of Freesat change transponders (link) in preparation for BBC1 HD launch in November 2010

Some channels can be added manually to Freesat receivers that are not automatically listed. None of the channels that require a Sky viewing card or pay TV work
Non-Freesat FTA channels can be added manually to Freesat Box
Five and other FTA channels not visible on "Cancelled subscription" Sky Box can be added manually.

With 6 TV channels now, and maybe 9 by end of 2012 and perhaps four in HD by 2014, with 10 to 12 radio channels on Saorview and hopefully duplicated on Saorsat, and Freesat HD (which gets all the Freesat also) we are entering a new era where people can SAVE €22 to €100 a month by cancelling pay tv.

In the next 3 years that's about €800 to €3,600 saving!

So how are people getting ripped off?

It WOULD be a rip of of the consumer if pay TV had launched on DTT. Most of the channels would have been ones free on Satellite (or freeview for those near Border or receiving IOM or Wales).

It WOULD have been a rip-off if the system wasn't designed for HD from the start (you don't need to rush and buy an HDTV as the spec insists that Saorview and Freeview HD boxes must downconvert HD for the SCART, which gives over 30% better quality compared to plain SD transmission).

It WOULD have been a rip off if SD was Simulcast with HD or MPEG2 was used.

It WOULD have been primative and backward to have no Middleware (MHEG5 or MHP)

It WOULD have been bad to use MHP, Open TV, MediaHighway or Ginga "middleware" rather than the Free MHEG5 that UK uses for Freeview, Freeview HD, Freesat and Freesat HD.

http://www.saortv.info/about/glossary/

http://www.saortv.info/about/mheg5/

http://www.saortv.info/about/myths-and-facts/

http://www.saortv.info/about/n-i-digital/

Entire book... http://www.techtir.ie/saortv

ka-sat launching end December, Hopefully FTA Irish TV on Satellite in May 2011, a duplication of Saorview
http://www.techtir.ie/blog/watty/ka-sat-countdown

Also http://www.saortv.info/satellite-saorsat/ and http://www.saortv.info/satellite-saorsat/saorsat-reception/

Considering getting only interference from Goverment, set backs for 11 years, the belated DTT rollout now has silver lining of being much superior to what it would have been in 2000 .. 2002 (that would be obsolete and we would be like UK, launching a separate HD system). RTE NL have made good decisions and achieved a lot.

The only really tricky one was DVB-T2. But Given the time scale BAI and DCNER told RTE NL they were on, the DVB-T2 would have been a bad decsion. If the current rollout was only starting in 2011, then we would be using DVB-T2. But in reality current rollout started over a year before major DVB-T2 tests and before ANY DVB-T2 domestic TVs or Setboxes available.

The DVB-T2 tuners do work on DVB-T and all have MPEG4 and HD too. The UK certified "Freeview HD" ones also have the MHEG5 required. So we are no disadvantage for consumer as long as there is enough MUX space.

With the failure of pay DTT (thankfully becuase that WOULD have been a major rip off), RTE NL is getting the 2nd Mux for more space in Spring 2011 instead of Spring 2013.

(sorry if tl;tr got carried away!)

Sam Russell

There is no rip off from RTE with DTT.

DTT is the motorway network of TV broadcasting. You get better pictures on more channels in HD from fewer transmitters. All good.

JonathonS

Johnmb wrote: »

The main problem I have with them is the DVB-T v DVB-T2 issue. They should have made the specs for the boxes to get certified DVB-T2. They've only just started that process, so it could have been done, and it would have future-proofed the boxes, and since it's backwards compatible it wouldn't have caused any problems for the current set-up. Now, we'll pretty much be stuck with DVB-T limits for a long time because they won't be able to use the better technology without changing everyones' TV/STB. That'll put them in the same boat as the UK are in re the MPEG2 v MPEG4 situation, stuck with things as they spent too much time and money encouraging people to buy the boxes/TVs with the inferior tech.

I checked the latest advice from the DVB Project on this
http://www.dvb.org/technology/dvbt2/

They see DVB-T as still a logical choice for many countries, but acknowledge the technical superiority of T2 for HD etc.
However, when I last looked at this page about two years ago the advice for countries planning to launch DVB-T services was unequivocally to fire ahead, as DVB-T2 was as yet untried and receiver prices were unknown.
There is always something better around the corner.........

Johnmb

JonathonS wrote: »

I checked the latest advice from the DVB Project on this
http://www.dvb.org/technology/dvbt2/

They see DVB-T as still a logical choice for many countries, but acknowledge the technical superiority of T2 for HD etc.
However, when I last looked at this page about two years ago the advice for countries planning to launch DVB-T services was unequivocally to fire ahead, as DVB-T2 was as yet untried and receiver prices were unknown.
There is always something better around the corner.........

I have no problem with them using DVB-T technology, it was the best available at the time this was being planned. But the STBs and TVs hadn't hit the market when DVB-T2 was available, so it would have been easy to put that technology into the specs. It wouldn't have changed anything now, but if, in a few years time, they wanted to switch over to DVB-T2 technology, it would just be a matter of organising the changeover on the supply end, the consumer end would have been ready to go.