Ice (Still) On Platforms - What's Irish Rail's policy?

ixoy

I saw someone slip today on the platform at Killester because most of both platforms are still covered in a sheet of slippery ice. The main ramp down was cleared but nothing has been done to clear the platforms, despite there being ample opportunity in the last week.

What's Irish Rail's policy here? Are they afraid of being sued when clearing ice despite the (somewhat mixed) answers we're hearing regarding such lawsuits? Is it just indifference? There's a small slip of cleared ground from where you "detrain" but 70% is still affected. It's by far the worst ice buildup that I've seen since the thaw began and it's dangerous.

Carawaystick

ixoy wrote: »

I saw someone slip today on the platform at Killester because most of both platforms are still covered in a sheet of slippery ice. The main ramp down was cleared but nothing has been done to clear the platforms, despite there being ample opportunity in the last week.

What's Irish Rail's policy here? Are they afraid of being sued when clearing ice despite the (somewhat mixed) answers we're hearing regarding such lawsuits? Is it just indifference? There's a small slip of cleared ground from where you "detrain" but 70% is still affected. It's by far the worst ice buildup that I've seen since the thaw began and it's dangerous.

I heard that the reason my rain was delayed over an hour last week was because because someone fell between the icy platform and a stopped train in Tara station. Either the RSC will grow a pair of balls and nail IÉ or they will absolve them and every time it freezes customers will take their life in their hands boarding or deboarding a train.

As no-one has been nailed for allowing a bridge fall into the sea despite the rsc being misled about the safety of the Malahide bridge incident, I'm less tan hopeful.

Run_to_da_hills

Whats the point of cleaning the platforms of ice when Its all going to be back again by the end of the week.

zagmund

There's still ice on the platform in Clontarf Road. In fairness to IE, that's some going . . . the ice and snow almost everywhere else in the city has been gone a week but they've held on to it somehow.

Mind you they also provided a free shower to each and every customer coming through the door there as the gutters had backed up and the meltwater was spilling down over the door. It was falling on the ground and of course re-freezing due to lack of salt outside the only door to the station.

I was passing through Connolly last week on Tuesday I think and the lads were out clearing the far end of the non-DART platforms - the ones that never have carriages on them because we don't have trains that long. Meantime the DART platforms were still covered in snow.

Bring back the Station Master, that's what I say - someone who gives a flying F about the customers who have to use their station instead of people and management who just say "not my problem, son".

z

CIE

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Whats the point of cleaning the platforms of ice when Its all going to be back again by the end of the week.

If IE had better and more frequent access to ports, they could get shipments of salt faster, and spread it on the platforms so that ice cannot re-form. They could also be the go-to source for more salt for the roads. But government policy is what it is, so long as the people stand for it...

Ham'nd'egger

ixoy wrote: »

I saw someone slip today on the platform at Killester because most of both platforms are still covered in a sheet of slippery ice. The main ramp down was cleared but nothing has been done to clear the platforms, despite there being ample opportunity in the last week.

What's Irish Rail's policy here? Are they afraid of being sued when clearing ice despite the (somewhat mixed) answers we're hearing regarding such lawsuits? Is it just indifference? There's a small slip of cleared ground from where you "detrain" but 70% is still affected. It's by far the worst ice buildup that I've seen since the thaw began and it's dangerous.

The first problem would be getting enough bodies to shovel away all the snow from all the stations. The second problem with shoveling away snow/ice is where to put it; it can't just be dumped on the tracks or left on the side of the street as you and I do cleaning our front path (stations don't all have garden area that could take snow piles) or taken away in snow trains. Thirdly, many stations are in dips or cuttings and have not had the advantage of a natural thaw as many streets have. The last problem is that because the stations are working areas, the time to clean off snow is quite limited between passengers using the stations and trains coming and going; any work like this would also require look out men for safety reasons. Several estates remained unthawed even up until last night and I'd say it would have been for similar reasons

I'm not saying for one minute it should not be cleared away, I'm just suggesting that there is factors to take into account here.

zagmund

Ham'nd'egger -> while you possibly can't shovel tons of snow onto the tracks there's no reason why small volumes of ice onto the trackbed would cause a problem.

Enough bodies - if there's anything this country has it's plenty of bodies looking for work. Yes, I know it costs money. So do insurance claims.

And as for this one - "The last problem is that because the stations are working areas" - this is a very good point. They are working areas. Even if they don't care about their customers, do they not have responsibilities under health & safety regulations to provide a safe (non-slip) working environment for their own employees within say, oh . . . 2 or 3 weeks of the snow falling ?

z

gurramok

Can't believe what i'm reading here as a non-train user. The enough of bodies is a red herring. Give a couple of men an hour with a shovel and most of the snow\ice could be cleared.

Here's where they should shovel the ice and the snow to:

zagmund wrote:

the lads were out clearing the far end of the non-DART platforms - the ones that never have carriages on them because we don't have trains that long

bmaxi

Take a trip to Gorey lads. While some effort has been made to clear the platform that seems only to lull you into a false sense of security for when you go out the gate (also IE property). That's where the real fun begins.
I wonder if Cowen's speech in the Dáil has had any bearing on this. If you make a real effort to clear snow and ice in a safe manner you are not liable, which, taken to its extreme converse means if you don't make any effort, you can't be sued either.

Ham'nd'egger

zagmund wrote: »

Ham'nd'egger -> while you possibly can't shovel tons of snow onto the tracks there's no reason why small volumes of ice onto the trackbed would cause a problem.

There are cables running along side trackbeds controlling signals so trackside is a no no.

zagmund wrote: »

Enough bodies - if there's anything this country has it's plenty of bodies looking for work. Yes, I know it costs money. So do insurance claims.

And do all these bodies looking for work have a Personal Track Safety Certificate, an essential if you are working in or around railway tracks?

zagmund wrote: »

And as for this one - "The last problem is that because the stations are working areas" - this is a very good point. They are working areas.

z

Working areas as in trains coming in and out though out the day that limits the amount of time free to move snow/ice away.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't be snow free by now but there is only so much they can do to clear every station so some places will slip up.

Cookie_Monster

not all the platform needs to be cleared, the outer half / 60% nearer to the rails can simply be cleared into the ineer half or so against the wall / railings, both allowing safer access and somewhere to store the snow temporarily. Its not ideal, especially if a busy section, but better than an un-cleared platform

zagmund

Hamndegger wrote: »

There are cables running along side trackbeds controlling signals so trackside is a no no.

Tell that to the lads in Connolly the other day pushing the snow off the edge of the platform.

Hamndegger wrote: »

And do all these bodies looking for work have a Personal Track Safety Certificate, an essential if you are working in or around railway tracks?

Do the management of these stations have a health and safety policy that say they will maintain the public areas in a condition that is not hazardous to the public in a reasonable timescale ?

Hamndegger wrote: »

Working areas as in trains coming in and out though out the day that limits the amount of time free to move snow/ice away.

I know what you mean, don't worry. But they are also actual working areas with actual working staff so they are subject to the same regulations as any other working area. In fact, with heavy machinery (you know, trains . . .) operating in close proximity at <10 minute intervals throughout the day is this not all the more reason that safety should be at the top of the list ? Can you imagine what would happen if some factory left something slippy on the floor for *weeks* and someone accidentally fell into the machinery ? "I'm sorry yer 'onor but we we too busy to clean up and sure yer man should have known better than to slip under the train."

Hamndegger wrote: »

I'm not saying that they shouldn't be snow free by now but there is only so much they can do to clear every station so some places will slip up.

I agree there is only so much, but *weeks* after the snow is pushing it a little. I work in East Point and they were pretty crap at clear the snow off the paths. However, one morning I came in and there was a group of lads working their way up the footpath breaking the ice up and pushing it to the side. They were making reasonable progress. Although they were about a week late, there hasn't been any ice there since. Once it's cleared, it's cleared.

z

Pineapple stu

Its easily delt with. First option is to get the local per way lads that are on days to clear the platforms and make it safer along with the station operatives . Secondly, use the on track machines that are in use at nights to scrape the ice off the platforms where possible.

ixoy

Why would you need any form of certificate to shovel ice off of a platform? Why could it not be done at off peak hours or, if need be, once trains stop running?
I've also got to echo the confusion as to how you can continue to have icy working areas and not be a safety hazard for both your customers and staff.

zagmund

zagmund wrote: »

There's still ice on the platform in Clontarf Road. In fairness to IE, that's some going . . . the ice and snow almost everywhere else in the city has been gone a week but they've held on to it somehow.

I was passing through Connolly last week on Tuesday I think and the lads were out clearing the far end of the non-DART platforms - the ones that never have carriages on them because we don't have trains that long. Meantime the DART platforms were still covered in snow.

It's not surprising that there's still ice really. Dart platforms are exposed areas, in the case of Clontarf Road, it's up high too.

As for the non Dart ends of platforms in Connolly, there's no such thing on the Dart platforms there. Even though most of the platforms serve mainly northbound or southbound, they do get the odd one going the opposite way than usual. Probably a couple times a day even. When this happens, the dart ends up on the opposite end.

ixoy wrote: »

Why would you need any form of certificate to shovel ice off of a platform? Why could it not be done at off peak hours or, if need be, once trains stop running?
I've also got to echo the confusion as to how you can continue to have icy working areas and not be a safety hazard for both your customers and staff.

So you want CIE to hire a load of people, for one night only, to try to clear ice in the dark, with no safety certificate? If I'm honest I can't see that ending well...

There's a salt shortage, and who knows when the next freeze will come; some reports are saying it will be in the next few days. I think it's actually pretty sensible to just clear and salt the edges of platforms. That's where the danger is. If someone slips on the edge trying to get on to a train, that's totally the Dart station's fault. If someone slips walking on the main part of the platform, which it basically just the same as a few paths around the city, it's their fault. I'm not saying people shouldn't slip, I know you don't do it on purpose, but it's icy, and the country isn't used to this weather. It's not the Dart's fault. Ice is a hazard, but it's a hazard that's out of the ordinary. I get the Dart every day and haven't once felt let down about the way the ice has been dealt with.

Cookie_Monster

true-or-false wrote: »

As for the non Dart ends of platforms in Connolly, there's no such thing on the Dart platforms there. Even though most of the platforms serve mainly northbound or southbound, they do get the odd one going the opposite way than usual. Probably a couple times a day even. When this happens, the dart ends up on the opposite end.

he meant the ends of the platforms that the DARTs do not use. 2, 3, and 4 iirc

Pineapple stu

true-or-false wrote: »

It's not surprising that there's still ice really. Dart platforms are exposed areas, in the case of Clontarf Road, it's up high too.

As for the non Dart ends of platforms in Connolly, there's no such thing on the Dart platforms there. Even though most of the platforms serve mainly northbound or southbound, they do get the odd one going the opposite way than usual. Probably a couple times a day even. When this happens, the dart ends up on the opposite end.



So you want CIE to hire a load of people, for one night only, to try to clear ice in the dark, with no safety certificate? If I'm honest I can't see that ending well...

There's a salt shortage, and who knows when the next freeze will come; some reports are saying it will be in the next few days. I think it's actually pretty sensible to just clear and salt the edges of platforms. That's where the danger is. If someone slips on the edge trying to get on to a train, that's totally the Dart station's fault. If someone slips walking on the main part of the platform, which it basically just the same as a few paths around the city, it's their fault. I'm not saying people shouldn't slip, I know you don't do it on purpose, but it's icy, and the country isn't used to this weather. It's not the Dart's fault. Ice is a hazard, but it's a hazard that's out of the ordinary. I get the Dart every day and haven't once felt let down about the way the ice has been dealt with.

They already have staff and contractors out most nights, they cleared the snow 2 weeks ago. It doesnt take much to spray the platforms with de-icer.

murphaph

They shovel snow off the platforms and onto the track in Berlin. They only remove snow from a strip about 2 metres wide though, the rest is left there in piles until it melts.

ixoy

I wonder now if someone in IrishRail read this thread.. Last night I passed Irish Rail staff armed with complex tools (shovels and buckets) heading into Killester station around 20:45. This morning - all cleared.

It's a good thing but, given it took only a few people with shovels and buckets one evening, why wasn't it done sooner?

Cookie_Monster

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

he meant the ends of the platforms that the DARTs do not use. 2, 3, and 4 iirc

Ah! My mistake, sorry. I still think they've done a good job though.

markpb

ixoy wrote: »

Last night I passed Irish Rail staff armed with complex tools (shovels and buckets) heading into Killester station

But did they have certificates!?

foggy_lad

markpb wrote: »

But did they have certificates!?

So anyone that sweeps a railway platform or in any way works on or even near the railway must have a railway safety certificate?! What about all the rail gourmet staff?

Losty Dublin

foggy_lad wrote: »

So anyone that sweeps a railway platform or in any way works on or even near the railway must have a railway safety certificate?! What about all the rail gourmet staff?

This is indeed the case and it applies to any staff who work on the track, who control a train or who may have any cause to work on or near it. This includes tradesmen who'd be sub contracted to Irish Rail. Unfortunatly with the legalese world we live in, it's essential for staff to hold a PTS certificate in order to be deemed competent to do some normally simple tasks around the track.

Pineapple stu

Losty Dublin wrote: »

This is indeed the case and it applies to any staff who work on the track, who control a train or who may have any cause to work on or near it. This includes tradesmen who'd be sub contracted to Irish Rail. Unfortunatly with the legalese world we live in, it's essential for staff to hold a PTS certificate in order to be deemed competent to do some normally simple tasks around the track.

Unfortuantly? Its a good thing and prevents accidents.

Losty Dublin

Pineapple stu wrote: »

Unfortuantly? Its a good thing and prevents accidents.

True but removing a lot of dangerous practices over the years has done far more to prevent accidents than anything. PTS is moreso a legal ass cover than anything but there is no denying that it's essential for the job.

Carawaystick

Pineapple stu wrote: »

Unfortuantly? Its a good thing and prevents accidents.

Explain exactly how preventing staff in Tara station clearing snow and ice off a platform without a certificate to `qualify' them in shovelling and sweeping, helped prevent the accident where someone fell between the platform and a train and delayed me and thousands more for over an hour?

I find it very hard to believe not clearing snow and ice from platforms prevents accidents, or is a good thing.

Jehuty42

Anyone who works in Tara St as a station attendant would have a certificate, so that would not be the reason for it not being cleared.