Fine Gael In Govt

Wide Road

I was wondering why FG have no election win since 1982. Considering they've been the second largest party (about to change) why is their record so bad?
I can't tell ye what to type but please be balanced and try not to bash individuals or others. This is a complex issue and there are probably a lot of reasons why FG have not won their way to power.

Monty Burnz

1. Smaller support base.
2. Less keen on buying the electorate than Fianna Failure.
3. Timing. Always get into power after Fianna Failure have made a balls of everything, so electorate associate them with painful reform. (You'll notice this is happening again)
4. Insistence on sticking with boring solid Inda instead of finding a diamond 'man of the people' like Bertie Ahern.
5. Some of its representatives (PJ Sheehan for example), while not as corrupt as many Fianna Failure ones, are certainly not likely to inspire the voters.
6. RTE has historically had a Fianna Failure slant, and the Independent have suported FF for years.

So a mixture of their own failings, the competition, the electorate, and the media I would say.

Wide Road

Monty Burnz wrote: »

1. Smaller support base.
2. Less keen on buying the electorate than Fianna Failure.
3. Timing. Always get into power after Fianna Failure have made a balls of everything, so electorate associate them with painful reform. (You'll notice this is happening again)
4. Insistence on sticking with boring solid Inda instead of finding a diamond 'man of the people' like Bertie Ahern.
5. Some of its representatives (PJ Sheehan for example), while not as corrupt as many Fianna Failure ones, are certainly not likely to inspire the voters.
6. RTE has historically had a Fianna Failure slant, and the Independent have suported FF for years.

So a mixture of their own failings, the competition, the electorate, and the media I would say.

Are you saying they have corrupt representatives?

Bottle_of_Smoke

FG are seen as posh and uncool whereas FF always had the lovable rogues you'd have a pint with.

Unfortunately people vote along those lines. This is democracy

jmayo

Wide Road wrote: »

I was wondering why FG have no election win since 1982. Considering they've been the second largest party (about to change) why is their record so bad?
I can't tell ye what to type but please be balanced and try not to bash individuals or others. This is a complex issue and there are probably a lot of reasons why FG have not won their way to power.

Ah have we adopted scr123's approach and now measure ultimate success on how many elections are won.

Why not measure success on what effects the political parties have had on the nation and it's people ?
Measure the parties on what they have achieved ?
Oh wait that one would be a bad measure for ff now wouldn't it. :rolleyes:

Wide Road wrote: »

Are you saying they have corrupt representatives?

Ah come on all parties would have had corrupt members and "seriously unethical" members.
Big difference is how the parties deal with said members.
FG have always appeared to dismiss them from their ranks, whereas ff promote them and back them until the end

Or would you care to argue about about tolerance and promotion of r burke, cj haughey, l lawlor, b flynn, b ahern, w o'dea, p flynn, f fahey, j o'donoghue, m ellis, d foley, etc, etc ?

Monty Burnz

Wide Road wrote: »

Are you saying they have corrupt representatives?

I would suggest that threatening a Guard going about their duties is an abuse of power. So yes.

meglome

Up to the 2007 election people still believed the hype put out by FF and were bought by tax cuts. They still believed their house was 'worth' a million or whatever to was at the time. The public at large just don't connect with Enda Kenny and for whatever crazy reason want someone like Bertie. A man who'll make you feel good, initially anyway, while screwing you.

We seem to be very happy to believe politicians who tell us what we want to hear. Which was one thing before we went down the toilet but still believing it now is just mental. This is clearly demonstrated by some of the Labour and SF poll numbers. Their financial policy's don't add up yet people seem to be queuing up to vote for them... stupid stupid stupid.

Riddle101

I suppose Fine Gael just weren't appealing enough. Fianna Fail had great talkers, people with the gift of a silver tongue in Bertie Ahern and Charlie Haughey, hell Eamon DeVelera was a good speaker too. Fine Gael I don't think have had that many gifted speakers as leaders. Well maybe a few in the party but it's the leader that people look at. People would rather listen to Richard Bruton then Enda Kenny, cause Richard is just a better speaker in general but because Enda is in charge it kind've puts a strain on Fine Gael. Not to mention Fianna Fail have been in power when Ireland was reaching good height and not to mention the boom period which might have made people stick to FF because they reckoned if the country was ok then there was no need to change parties. Even with the corruption involved.

scr123

Wide Road wrote: »

I was wondering why FG have no election win since 1982. Considering they've been the second largest party (about to change) why is their record so bad?
I can't tell ye what to type but please be balanced and try not to bash individuals or others. This is a complex issue and there are probably a lot of reasons why FG have not won their way to power.

Though an interesting topic I doubt if it will get much response. Being FF I could take advantage and get in right ol slagging mode but no I will just mention a few thoughts on FG.
First thing about FG for me is that when you canvass FG people do not admit who they vote for. Canvassed at many elections and only twice that I remember did someone say they vote FG. There is something either very private or secretive about FG voters
Next thing is who votes FG. In 2007 550000 voted FG . I would say up to 150000 of those are not necessarily FG believers but people who either abhor FF or abhor left wing politics. That leaves a core FG vote of 400000. Would never claim to be a psychologist, social or political expert so can only say what I think from observation

FG people to me could be described as the backbone of the country. Deeply conservative socially and upright in their dealings
They are the people who believe one should have a safe secure job, be educated, never get in to debt and always have a few bob put away for the rainy day
They are law abiding and believe in an eye for an eye and cannot understand leniency towards criminals
Whatever arch conservative religious people we have in the country would consider it simple logic to vote FG.
I could go on a bit more but really to sum up the core FG vote is to say they see themselves as the natural rulers of the country. That unfortunately is their downfall and why they will never be a one party government

Riskymove

Wide Road wrote: »

I was wondering why FG have no election win since 1982.

no party has 'won' an election since the late 1970s

given that a FF/FG coalition has been ruled out for long-held rivalries its simply been down to numbers after that

FF have proved more adept at buying into power

irishh_bob

Wide Road wrote: »

I was wondering why FG have no election win since 1982. Considering they've been the second largest party (about to change) why is their record so bad?
I can't tell ye what to type but please be balanced and try not to bash individuals or others. This is a complex issue and there are probably a lot of reasons why FG have not won their way to power.

fianna fail epitomise the irish people and charecther much more so than fine gael do

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

hallelujajordan

Some curious comments here . . .

Monty Burnz wrote: »

1. Smaller support base.
2. Less keen on buying the electorate than Fianna Failure.
3. Timing. Always get into power after Fianna Failure have made a balls of everything, so electorate associate them with painful reform. (You'll notice this is happening again)
4. Insistence on sticking with boring solid Inda instead of finding a diamond 'man of the people' like Bertie Ahern.
5. Some of its representatives (PJ Sheehan for example), while not as corrupt as many Fianna Failure ones, are certainly not likely to inspire the voters.
6. RTE has historically had a Fianna Failure slant, and the Independent have suported FF for years.

So a mixture of their own failings, the competition, the electorate, and the media I would say.

#2 Their manifestos in 2002 and 2007 would seem to indicate otherwise, as does their current assertions (without any basis) that they will negotiate a lower bailout interest rate.

#4 The only thing 'solid' about Enda K is his solid refusal to recognise the negative impact he personally has on FG chances of actually winning an overall majority. . . but on this point I do largely agree with you. People vote for leaders (rightly or wrongly) and will continue to. It is part of the reason Ahern was so successful despite his weaknesses and it is now part of the reason why Gilmore's Labour are polling so high. Who can argue that FG would not be doing better in the polls if they had a more popular leader.

#5 is a nonsense. PJ obviously did inspire the voters. Other than the period from 2002-2007 he has been a TD since 1981

#6 is just one of those ridiculous assertions that will never go away. From every positive article or news story related to FF, I will find you a negative one.

My personal view is that FG suffer because they fail to offer a true alternative to Fianna Fail. If you look at their manifestos over the past 15 years or so it is very difficult to see what a FG led government would have offered as an alternative. So when centre-right politics are popular, people gravitate to FF because they have a better network on the ground to capture that vote. When people move away from FF they typically move to the left, hence the growth in popularity for Labour and Sinn Fein.

irishh_bob

scr123 wrote: »

Though an interesting topic I doubt if it will get much response. Being FF I could take advantage and get in right ol slagging mode but no I will just mention a few thoughts on FG.
First thing about FG for me is that when you canvass FG people do not admit who they vote for. Canvassed at many elections and only twice that I remember did someone say they vote FG. There is something either very private or secretive about FG voters
Next thing is who votes FG. In 2007 550000 voted FG . I would say up to 150000 of those are not necessarily FG believers but people who either abhor FF or abhor left wing politics. That leaves a core FG vote of 400000. Would never claim to be a psychologist, social or political expert so can only say what I think from observation

FG people to me could be described as the backbone of the country. Deeply conservative socially and upright in their dealings
They are the people who believe one should have a safe secure job, be educated, never get in to debt and always have a few bob put away for the rainy day
They are law abiding and believe in an eye for an eye and cannot understand leniency towards criminals
Whatever arch conservative religious people we have in the country would consider it simple logic to vote FG.
I could go on a bit more but really to sum up the core FG vote is to say they see themselves as the natural rulers of the country. That unfortunately is their downfall and why they will never be a one party government

agree with much of your post but the religous right in this country would tend to vote FF more than FG , to be conservative does not always equal to be religous , FF were always the party of the catholic church

senordingdong

hallelujajordan wrote: »

#4 The only thing 'solid' about Enda K is his solid refusal to recognise the negative impact he personally has on FG chances of actually winning an overall majority. . . but on this point I do largely agree with you. People vote for leaders (rightly or wrongly) and will continue to. It is part of the reason Ahern was so successful despite his weaknesses and it is now part of the reason why Gilmore's Labour are polling so high. Who can argue that FG would not be doing better in the polls if they had a more popular leader.
.

I find I'm quite happy with Enda Kenny as party leader.
He performs and doesn't get caught up with trivial **** like charisma.

Monty Burnz

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Some curious comments here . . .

#2 Their manifestos in 2002 and 2007 would seem to indicate otherwise, as does their current assertions (without any basis) that they will negotiate a lower bailout interest rate.

#4 The only thing 'solid' about Enda K is his solid refusal to recognise the negative impact he personally has on FG chances of actually winning an overall majority. . . but on this point I do largely agree with you. People vote for leaders (rightly or wrongly) and will continue to. It is part of the reason Ahern was so successful despite his weaknesses and it is now part of the reason why Gilmore's Labour are polling so high. Who can argue that FG would not be doing better in the polls if they had a more popular leader.

#5 is a nonsense. PJ obviously did inspire the voters. Other than the period from 2002-2007 he has been a TD since 1981

#6 is just one of those ridiculous assertions that will never go away. From every positive article or news story related to FF, I will find you a negative one.

My personal view is that FG suffer because they fail to offer a true alternative to Fianna Fail. If you look at their manifestos over the past 15 years or so it is very difficult to see what a FG led government would have offered as an alternative. So when centre-right politics are popular, people gravitate to FF because they have a better network on the ground to capture that vote. When people move away from FF they typically move to the left, hence the growth in popularity for Labour and Sinn Fein.

2. Definitely agree re. 2007 - I reckon by that time they had given up on the electorate and tried to play Fianna Failure at their own game. It didn't work, and it didn't not work, if you follow me. They could have gambled and told the truth about the crash, but I reckon they would have been massacred by the voters if they did.

4. I'd prefer if FG (or any Irish party) had a really great leader, but I guess we get what we deserve

5. To be honest, looking through the ranks of a party's TDs and seeing the likes of PJ Sheehan with FG, Fianna Failure's whole gallery of rogues, the GP clowns, Sinn Fein's guys (at least one with a strong suspicion of blood on their hands, don't want to name names for libel reasons but informed posters will know who it is) and Labour's PS enthusiasts - I'm not really inspired by anyone in the Dáil. But clearly neutral/floating voters have been more swayed by those FF guys than the FG ones.

6. RTE aren't necessarily totally pro-FF, they are somewhat pro-FF (as are most of the country) and somewhat pro-government. In the last decade or more, that has meant a pronounced FF bias (imho). That may change when someone else gets in. The Indo, on the other hand, endorsed Fianna Failure before the last election, based on the spanking job they had done presumably. Good call, Indo!

alejandro1977

Wide Road wrote: »

I was wondering why FG have no election win since 1982. Considering they've been the second largest party (about to change) why is their record so bad?
I can't tell ye what to type but please be balanced and try not to bash individuals or others. This is a complex issue and there are probably a lot of reasons why FG have not won their way to power.

Was John Bruton not Taoiseach?

I can't see why you would say the FF/LAb won the previous election and not FG/Lab considering Labour's pre election statements re. FF

Monty Burnz

alejandro1977 wrote: »

Was John Bruton not Taoiseach?

He was, and that Lab/FG government was the best I can recall in the last 25 years. Earlier than that, I'm not old enough to have an opinion to be honest.

Liam Byrne

scr123 wrote: »

Though an interesting topic I doubt if it will get much response. Being FF I could take advantage and get in right ol slagging mode but no I will just mention a few thoughts on FG.
First thing about FG for me is that when you canvass FG people do not admit who they vote for. Canvassed at many elections and only twice that I remember did someone say they vote FG. There is something either very private or secretive about FG voters
Next thing is who votes FG. In 2007 550000 voted FG . I would say up to 150000 of those are not necessarily FG believers but people who either abhor FF or abhor left wing politics. That leaves a core FG vote of 400000. Would never claim to be a psychologist, social or political expert so can only say what I think from observation

FG people to me could be described as the backbone of the country. Deeply conservative socially and upright in their dealings
They are the people who believe one should have a safe secure job, be educated, never get in to debt and always have a few bob put away for the rainy day
They are law abiding and believe in an eye for an eye and cannot understand leniency towards criminals
Whatever arch conservative religious people we have in the country would consider it simple logic to vote FG.

I'm stunned, because I actually agree with a lot of your post for once!

I wouldn't particularly agree with the slant put on it, in relation to "deeply conservative", "arch conservative", or "religious", but the rest - backbone, law abiding, avoiding (at least serious) debt, a few bob for a rainy day, and law-abiding all sounds about right, and "leniency towards criminals" hasn't gotten us anywhere worthwhile.

Wide Road

alejandro1977 wrote: »

Was John Bruton not Taoiseach?

I can't see why you would say the FF/LAb won the previous election and not FG/Lab considering Labour's pre election statements re. FF

John Bruton was Taoiseach but not after the election. He joined up with Labour & Democratic Left after FF & Labour parted ways. On the run up to that election John's FG party refused to speak to DL on forming a govt. I think Enda was a Minister in that govt.

Riskymove

Wide Road wrote: »

John Bruton was Taoiseach but not after the election. He joined up with Labour & Democratic Left after FF & Labour parted ways. On the run up to that election John's FG party refused to speak to DL on forming a govt. I think Enda was a Minister in that govt.

I think there was also a by-election or two which changed the numbers slightly from the original post-election position

Enda Kenny was tourism and trade I think

jmayo

scr123 wrote: »

FG people to me could be described as the backbone of the country. Deeply conservative socially and upright in their dealings
They are the people who believe one should have a safe secure job, be educated, never get in to debt and always have a few bob put away for the rainy day
They are law abiding and believe in an eye for an eye and cannot understand leniency towards criminals
Whatever arch conservative religious people we have in the country would consider it simple logic to vote FG.
I could go on a bit more but really to sum up the core FG vote is to say they see themselves as the natural rulers of the country. That unfortunately is their downfall and why they will never be a one party government

For once one of your posts actually makes some sense.
Keep taking the tablets they seem to be working.

You appear to think that there is something wrong with the class of people you describe as FG voters.
You almost appear to be sneering at them ?

What is wrong with being upright in ones dealings ?
What is wrong about only borrowing what you can repay, getting a good education, a good job and saving for bad times ?
What is wrong with being law abiding ?
Oh wait you are ff, so no need to answer that point if we talk about white collar crime.

Actually I would disagree about FG being the religiously conservative party.
If anything it is ff.

One of the reasons I first started voting for them was the social forward thinking of FG under Fitzgerald, when they tried to introduce divorce, change abortion laws, intoduce contraception, etc.
At the same time ff under cj haughey was playing up to the conservatives and the church.

As for recent years, what party but ff in the last days of their government introduced very lenient deal with the church to bail them out of their fiscal responsibilities on child abuse ?
That deal absolved the church of hundreds of millions of a restitution bill and dumped it onto the taxpayers.
What party recently backed down to the Vatican ?
What party introduced a blasphemy bill ?

Riskymove

jmayo wrote: »

What is wrong with being upright in ones dealings ?
What is wrong about only borrowing what you can repay, getting a good education, a good job and saving for bad times ?
What is wrong with being law abiding ?

Lol, indeed!

I mentioned before on this issue how elements of FF used to sneer at Garret Fitzgerald and sarcasticly refer to him as 'Garret the Good' or 'Saint Garret'

goodness and honesty were things to be sneered at!

thebman

FG are more closely tied to the church than FF even if FF are tied to the too.

I think FF identify more with the church as both are corrupt and don't believe in consequences to ones actions unless your an average Joe and not part of their club. That is just my opinion however.

It is the thing I dislike most about FG that they have any time for the church whatsoever.

Wide Road

thebman wrote: »

FG are more closely tied to the church than FF even if FF are tied to the too.

I think FF identify more with the church as both are corrupt and don't believe in consequences to ones actions unless your an average Joe and not part of their club. That is just my opinion however.

It is the thing I dislike most about FG that they have any time for the church whatsoever.

Interesting, can you explain more please?

Wide Road

Riskymove wrote: »

Lol, indeed!

I mentioned before on this issue how elements of FF used to sneer at Garret Fitzgerald and sarcasticly refer to him as 'Garret the Good' or 'Saint Garret'

goodness and honesty were things to be sneered at!

I haven't heard this one before. Again, can you explain please?

oppenheimer1

Monty Burnz wrote: »

1. Smaller support base.
2. Less keen on buying the electorate than Fianna Failure.
3. Timing. Always get into power after Fianna Failure have made a balls of everything, so electorate associate them with painful reform. (You'll notice this is happening again)
4. Insistence on sticking with boring solid Inda instead of finding a diamond 'man of the people' like Bertie Ahern.
5. Some of its representatives (PJ Sheehan for example), while not as corrupt as many Fianna Failure ones, are certainly not likely to inspire the voters.
6. RTE has historically had a Fianna Failure slant, and the Independent have suported FF for years.

So a mixture of their own failings, the competition, the electorate, and the media I would say.

Nonsense, the reasons for Fine Gaels lack of appeal are far more complex than your six simplistic points and their failure at election time have to be looked at in the context of the Ireland that existed at the time. Ultimately the reason they haven't been in government is that they have not been popular enough, but more importantly you have to explore the reasons why. To do this you need to go back to the foundations of the parties and the state.

In the 1930s Fine Gael and its associated Blueshirts following the Army Mutiny proved themselves a group which couldn't be trusted with power. Dev at the time was keenly aware of the sensitivities of the Irish psyche, its republicanism and Catholicism. During his first government he tapped into this and managed to win 6 successive elections. This is key, the unbroken power FF from '32 to '48 allowed them to build a strong party at the ground, as success breeds success (For the same reason Kerry wins so many All-Irelands). Why join a party of losers, when you can join a party of winners that really has the same broad policy. Then onto the first inter-party govenment where the broad spectrum in opposition wasn't truely effective as it was so disparate and only suffered to reinforce the idea that FF understood the country. Indeed it was the crisis that brought down the govt, the mother and child scheme, so opposed by the church showed how out of touch the govt was with the thinking of society at the time.

Again from 57-73 there is another unbroken period of FF rule, allowing success to breed success and patronage to be fostered. Only for the economic shock, the FF govt probably would have continued. Here was FGs real opportunity, however bad political choices and the economies stubborn refusal to improve, followed by a disastrous abortion referendum in the mid 80's again showed that a FG govt was willing to defy its Christian democrat roots and alienate its core vote for power. It also misread the public mood - vat on shoes and a lack of charismatic appeal, contrasted negatively with a flamboyant Charlie. The tallaght strategy, while selfless and in the national interest, let FF off the hook and allowed them the breathing space to get the countrys finances in order.

FG's biggest missed opportunity was in 1997, an election they should not have lost. The economy was on the up, fees for third level had been removed and the tiger was beginning to purr. However yet again they allowed a labour led social issue to destroy the party. The finely balanced divorce referendum was a disaster for the party, and attacked their core Christian democrat rural roots. 1997 was a funny year though, there was an air of change sweeping the world, perhaps FG were unlucky and just got swept out on that wave.

Ultimately FG's lack of appeal stems from their historic position of being the opposition, which makes it difficult to get things done, and only get voted in for change for change sake. When they have had the chance in power they have failed to make use of it, mainly by aligning themselves with parties of the left which alienates the core FG vote, only ever giving them single terms in office and never allowing themselves to build a base through patronage and success.

It looks like we again could see ourselves heading for yet another abortion referendum in the life of the next Dáil. Though social attitudes have changed Ireland is still primarily a conservative country socially. The imposition of liberal laws from a historically party of the right will only serve to damage its reputation.

steelcityblues

thebman wrote: »

FG are more closely tied to the church than FF even if FF are tied to the too.

I think FF identify more with the church as both are corrupt and don't believe in consequences to ones actions unless your an average Joe and not part of their club. That is just my opinion however.

It is the thing I dislike most about FG that they have any time for the church whatsoever.

It is important too to understand the traditional two wings of FG.

Wing one was the more urban/socially liberal one represented over the years by the likes of Garrett FitzGerald, Declan Costello, Jim Mitchell, Alan Shatter, Frances FitzGerald, etc. These people were strong advocates for the likes of abortion, divorce, open talks on N Ireland, but often with referendum defeats in a still very conservative Ireland.

Wing two is the 'country n western' set, represented by Enda and his father, Michael Ring, Michael Lowry, Austin Deasy, etc. who as you would expect - were very socially conservative with strong sympathies towards the GAA and Catholic Church. Some of them as big of parish pumps (esp. Lowry and Ring) as your average FFer. These type of FG voters were critical to Garrett's referendums in the 80s being defeated.

Wing two still dominate the party IMO, and prevent me from even considering a vote for FG at elections. Kenny is too much in that mould to appeal to the younger, urban based demographic.

irishh_bob

thebman wrote: »

FG are more closely tied to the church than FF even if FF are tied to the too.

I think FF identify more with the church as both are corrupt and don't believe in consequences to ones actions unless your an average Joe and not part of their club. That is just my opinion however.

It is the thing I dislike most about FG that they have any time for the church whatsoever.

if FG have closer links to the catholic church than FF , how come protestants in this country have overwhelmingly voted for FG over FF , one of the reasons protestants have tended to vote FG over FF is due to FF traditionally having been overly nationalistic ( in their eyes ) and overly friendly to rome

jmayo

steelcityblues wrote: »

It is important too to understand the traditional two wings of FG.

Wing one was the more urban/socially liberal one represented over the years by the likes of Garrett FitzGerald, Declan Costello, Jim Mitchell, Alan Shatter, Frances FitzGerald, etc. These people were strong advocates for the likes of abortion, divorce, open talks on N Ireland, but often with referendum defeats in a still very conservative Ireland.

The amount of sterotyping going on in this thread is unbelieveable.

First off FG are the party of socially conservative religious types, yet ff is the party that refused to bring any socailly progressive legislation before the voters.
Yes there were some like Alice Glenn in FG who were right wing nut job catholics, but look over at the hanafins sitting in ff.

BTW speaking of wrongly sterotyping FGers and particualrly those who happen to be rural, Alice Glenn hailed from Dublin and was elected in Dublin much like the hannafins.

ff were the party that in their last days of government pushed through a deal that gave the church very very generous terms in paying for it's child abuse victims.

steelcityblues wrote: »

Wing two is the 'country n western' set, represented by Enda and his father, Michael Ring, Michael Lowry, Austin Deasy, etc. who as you would expect - were very socially conservative with strong sympathies towards the GAA and Catholic Church. Some of them as big of parish pumps (esp. Lowry and Ring) as your average FFer. These type of FG voters were critical to Garrett's referendums in the 80s being defeated.

Wing two still dominate the party IMO, and prevent me from even considering a vote for FG at elections. Kenny is too much in that mould to appeal to the younger, urban based demographic.

You sneeringly label one wing of the party as being "Country and Western", but can you tell us how many respresentatives are or were ever connected to the Irish Country and Western music scene ?

Perhaps I should tell you that ff were led by a Country and Western connected person, one albert reynolds. :rolleyes:
They currently have two senators, including their leader in the Seanad, who are very connected to the Irish Country and Western music scene.
They would be no other than pascal mooney and donie "bought his own hair" cassidy.

oh and for your information Enda Kenny would be a big Bruce Springsteen fan so not sure how that fits into your stereotype. :rolleyes:


Oh and you also appear to sneer at those with strong sympathies towards the GAA.
Would you rather they had strong sympathies towards rugby perhaps or maybe even soccer ?
All parties have members that have strong links towards different sports and sporting organisations.
Some of them have storng smypathies towards soccer clubs in another country rather than clubs a couple of miles from their own home.

Either way I still reckon it is better than having strong smpathies for murderers which a few of our elected representatives have displayed. :mad:

irishh_bob wrote: »

if FG have closer links to the catholic church than FF , how come protestants in this country have overwhelmingly voted for FG over FF , one of the reasons protestants have tended to vote FG over FF is due to FF traditionally having been overly nationalistic ( in their eyes ) and overly friendly to rome

Stop wrecking the illusion that most FGers, especially those outside dear ould Dublin are rosary beeds thumbing papists all listening to Big Tom. :rolleyes:

steelcityblues

jmayo wrote: »

The amount of sterotyping going on in this thread is unbelieveable.

First off FG are the party of socially conservative religious types, yet ff is the party that refused to bring any socailly progressive legislation before the voters.
Yes there were some like Alice Glenn in FG who were right wing nut job catholics, but look over at the hanafins sitting in ff.

BTW speaking of wrongly sterotyping FGers and particualrly those who happen to be rural, Alice Glenn hailed from Dublin and was elected in Dublin much like the hannafins.

ff were the party that in their last days of government pushed through a deal that gave the church very very generous terms in paying for it's child abuse victims.



You sneeringly label one wing of the party as being "Country and Western", but can you tell us how many respresentatives are or were ever connected to the Irish Country and Western music scene ?

Perhaps I should tell you that ff were led by a Country and Western connected person, one albert reynolds. :rolleyes:
They currently have two senators, including their leader in the Seanad, who are very connected to the Irish Country and Western music scene.
They would be no other than pascal mooney and donie "bought his own hair" cassidy.

oh and for your information Enda Kenny would be a big Bruce Springsteen fan so not sure how that fits into your stereotype. :rolleyes:


Oh and you also appear to sneer at those with strong sympathies towards the GAA.
Would you rather they had strong sympathies towards rugby perhaps or maybe even soccer ?
All parties have members that have strong links towards different sports and sporting organisations.
Some of them have storng smypathies towards soccer clubs in another country rather than clubs a couple of miles from their own home.

Either way I still reckon it is better than having strong smpathies for murderers which a few of our elected representatives have displayed. :mad:


Wow! Touchy response.





Stop wrecking the illusion that most FGers, especially those outside dear ould Dublin are rosary beeds thumbing papists all listening to Big Tom. :rolleyes:

First of all, why are you bringing FF into this discussion? You and I know they are total chancers - always have been, always will be, and hopefully in their dying days as a political party.

Let me tell you a story - my mother hails from a village in Donegal, but has been living in Dublin for her adult life. She was from FG stock, and the family are very pro Church, anti-abortion/divorce in their thinking. This also went for the other FGers (and FFers) I knew in that village. There is still a huge element of this in the party.

Got into a bit of heated debate with my late grandmother, when I asked why do politicians not push stronger for a 32 county Ireland? Rest her soul though!

As for Enda being a Springsteen fan - how cutting edge, lol!

Gaelic Games are great, but the GAA itself is rotten taking all it can out of the government spending purse to the expense of growth of other sports. Future FG MEP Sean Kelly seemed to go along with this!

If FG are beyond the parish pump thing,explain why an obvious cute hoor like Lowry still gets huge first preferences from undoubtely the same people who voted for him under the FG banner?

Your bit in bold sums up the older wing of FG - still obsessed with things in the past, instead of trying to be ruthless enough to consign the likes of FF to the dustbin of history. Michael Collins was not a particulary nice man either!

Monty Burnz

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Nonsense, the reasons for Fine Gaels lack of appeal are far more complex than your six simplistic points

I gave a 1 minute answer. It's obviously a lot more complex than that, but it is also obviously a lot more complex than you post portrays too. I won't insult your post as you did mine though. :rolleyes:

Wide Road

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

This has been largely ignored by the media.
Could it be FG trying to buy the last election?

Oasis_Dublin

scr123 wrote: »

That leaves a core FG vote of 400000.


Whatever arch conservative religious people we have in the country would consider it simple logic to vote FG.

I could go on a bit more but really to sum up the core FG vote is to say they see themselves as the natural rulers of the country. That unfortunately is their downfall and why they will never be a one party government

Oh dear. The first figure is completely made up.

The second is a load of crap as well. I would vote Fine Gael over Fianna Fáil anyday of the week and I'm not in anyway religious.

FG see themselves as natural rulers of the country?! That's why they attempted to bring in a "first past the post" electoral system on two separate occasions.... Oh no wait, that was Éamon "the Irish people were never given the right to do wrong" de Valera's party.

Oasis_Dublin

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Hahaha. Absolutely hilarious!

Wide Road

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Hahaha. Absolutely hilarious!

What is?

Oasis_Dublin

Wide Road wrote: »

What is?

The suggestion that it's all FG's fault.

Wide Road

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

The suggestion that it's all FG's fault.

Who said it is?
Do you agree with their election promises?

Oasis_Dublin

Wide Road wrote: »

Who said it is?
Do you agree with their election promises?

Election promises are on things, actual policies are quite another. FG never got the chance to implement policies because FF were too busy partying in tents and leading us to into the abyss.

Wide Road

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Election promises are on things, actual policies are quite another. FG never got the chance to implement policies because FF were too busy partying in tents and leading us to into the abyss.

Are you saying that FG tried to buy the election by lies?
Please explain in detail this time.

Oasis_Dublin

Wide Road wrote: »

Are you saying that FG tried to buy the election by lies?
Please explain in detail this time.

Political parties regularly make election "promises." To suggest that FG pushed FF into wrecking the country is stupid; FF had the power, and had the legitimacy of having won 3 elections in which they were the most popular party in Ireland by a decent margin (FG have managed a maximum of 27% of the popular vote as a maximum since 1997). Therefore, it was up to them to lead the country from the front and any other argument is trying to make excuses for FF leading us into the abyss.

Did they lie? Who knows, they did not have the chance to implement policies. Did FF lie? Yes.

Wide Road

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

Political parties regularly make election "promises." To suggest that FG pushed FF into wrecking the country is stupid;.

Who said FG pushed FF. If anything FF pushed FG into trying to buy the election.

Oasis_Dublin

"Of course, FG is to be blamed for essentially running "Anything you can do, we can do better" campaigns in recent years."

I'm not sure why there is any confusion.

jmayo

steelcityblues wrote: »

First of all, why are you bringing FF into this discussion? You and I know they are total chancers - always have been, always will be, and hopefully in their dying days as a political party.

Well at least we agree on that.

steelcityblues wrote: »

Let me tell you a story - my mother hails from a village in Donegal, but has been living in Dublin for her adult life. She was from FG stock, and the family are very pro Church, anti-abortion/divorce in their thinking. This also went for the other FGers (and FFers) I knew in that village. There is still a huge element of this in the party.

Don't get me started on Donegal.
Any place that gave a ff candidate the second highest number of first preferences at the by election, just as the IMF were being brought into the country by the actions of that party is unbelievable.

Won't even mention the fact that they gave the country mary coughlan. :rolleyes:

steelcityblues wrote: »

Got into a bit of heated debate with my late grandmother, when I asked why do politicians not push stronger for a 32 county Ireland? Rest her soul though!

Ah so would that be your biggest goal, a 32 county Ireland ?

steelcityblues wrote: »

As for Enda being a Springsteen fan - how cutting edge, lol!

You do have a habit of sneering at people and things you do not like.
May I ask your age ?

steelcityblues wrote: »

Gaelic Games are great, but the GAA itself is rotten taking all it can out of the government spending purse to the expense of growth of other sports. Future FG MEP Sean Kelly seemed to go along with this!

I might not like certain things about GAA, but they have done a lot in communities around this country and often through the very hard unpaid work of committed volunteers.
Look at the other big organisations like the IRFU, who would have had lots of moneyed people behind it, or the FAI who might not have had money, but still know how to waste it and what they have achieved.
BTW the governmnet that gave a huge chunk of cash to GAA was none other than one led by committed foreign soccer fan bertie ahern.

steelcityblues wrote: »

If FG are beyond the parish pump thing,explain why an obvious cute hoor like Lowry still gets huge first preferences from undoubtely the same people who voted for him under the FG banner?

How long is he out of FG and why was he kicked out ?
Are you now going to blame FG for the way ex supporters vote ?

It is sad why people vote for these, but look at the amount of ex ffers like the blaneys, flynn, healy-raes that get huge backing from what could be called ff voters.

Even though I hate those type of voters, I would rather them than the ones who vote for a candidate that collects Garda killers from prison and refuses to condem their actions.

steelcityblues wrote: »

Your bit in bold sums up the older wing of FG - still obsessed with things in the past, instead of trying to be ruthless enough to consign the likes of FF to the dustbin of history. Michael Collins was not a particulary nice man either!

Ahh now that to me sounds like a SF stock answer to the incident I was alluding to which happened only 15 odd years ago and all the main protagonists are very much alive.

It is all in the past and should be forgotten about. :rolleyes:
Can't we all just move on ?
Except the funny thing is that suddenly when we talk about RUC, UDR, British Army, etc it is not in the past and can never be forgotten. :rolleyes:

What has Michael Collins got to do with this ????

Wide Road wrote: »

Who said it is?
Do you agree with their election promises?

Do you agree with ff actual policies whilst in government rather than FG's proposed policies ?

steelcityblues

jmayo,

Appreciate your responses and of course you can stand by your party affiliation.

My initial post was trying to point out that FG isn't the great alternative it should be, and that it is still very much hampered by the old guard who are very socially conservative, pro Church, law and order, and now of course pro bailout.

Granted, they have less chancers in their ranks than FF, but the harsh reality that FG are only on 30% (given how beyond horrible the current lot in govt. are) shows that many are still not won over by your party.

As for my age - i'm 28. Previously voted #1 for John Gormley - shame that he's soiled his legacy since 07.

Just found your bit about Enda being a Springsteen fan a bit funny and irrelevant - given the guy's clearly a mainstream artist liked by many different people.

As for your anti-SF stance, if you think they are too 'lefty' fair enough, but your party's founders (and FF) were 'murderers' too, and then became 'respectable'. Plus, there was a reason the Good Friday Agreement happened and was approved by the Irish people.

jmayo

steelcityblues wrote: »

jmayo,

Appreciate your responses and of course you can stand by your party affiliation.

My initial post was trying to point out that FG isn't the great alternative it should be, and that it is still very much hampered by the old guard who are very socially conservative, pro Church, law and order, and now of course pro bailout.

Most people know that FG will not solve all our problems and that they could be a hell of a lot better, but as Liam Byrne always says they are best we have at the moment.
ff are morally corrupt arrogant un accountable and need to be out of power for a long time.
I think Labour is in dream land, beholden to their union members and the rest including SF are living in cloud cuckoo land if they think leftist policies will do anything for us.

BTW can somebody tell me what is wrong with being pro law and order.

steelcityblues wrote: »

Granted, they have less chancers in their ranks than FF, but the harsh reality that FG are only on 30% (given how beyond horrible the current lot in govt. are) shows that many are still not won over by your party.

FG are not trusted or liked by huge chunk of voters, especially ex ffers and public service I would guess.

steelcityblues wrote: »

As for my age - i'm 28. Previously voted #1 for John Gormley - shame that he's soiled his legacy since 07.

A green and a possible SF voter. I dispair.

Maybe if you were a wee bit older you might appreciate what this island was like when every night we heard of yet another attrocity in the news.
What was Ireland known for, but butchery.
I remember foreign students being surprised there weren't nightly bomb blasts in Galway or Limerick.

I remember Enniskillen, Warrington, Mountbatten, Garda Patrick Reynolds, Don Tidey's kidnapping, just like a remember The Heights Bar Loughinisland, Greysteel massacre, the Milltown cemetery attack and Omagh.

Maybe there was some justification in the early days, but where was the justification when kids and innocent people are being butchered, when the British government have removed the discriminatory rule of the loyalists ?
Where was the justification in the gutting of Robert Macartney ?

You were a kid when a garda, doing his duty to this state, was gunned down in cold blood by a bunch of thugs who supposedly were not linked to PIRA/SF, but yet years later SF fought for these peoples' rights and welcomed them on their release from prison.

I was working in Limerick at that time and I actually knew a fair few people who knew the son of the second garda that was in the car that day. He was lucky to survive.

steelcityblues wrote: »

Just found your bit about Enda being a Springsteen fan a bit funny and irrelevant - given the guy's clearly a mainstream artist liked by many different people.

Why not check out the Boss's stuff from the 70s rather than listening to the latest sh**e that passes as music.

steelcityblues wrote: »

As for your anti-SF stance, if you think they are too 'lefty' fair enough, but your party's founders (and FF) were 'murderers' too, and then became 'respectable'. Plus, there was a reason the Good Friday Agreement happened and was approved by the Irish people.

How can SF be considered "respectable" when we have their public representatives picking up Garda killers from jail.
PIRA were supposed to have a ban on killing members of the Republic's security forces, yet they killed a garda in cold blood, while they were negotiating with our government and that of Britain.
Just this week a top secret communication stating adams and mcguinness knew about the Northern Bank robbery was leaked by wikileaks.

The Good Friday agreement was to solve a conflict that was happening in Northern Ireland, which no matter how much your favourite party may try and spin it is a different country to this.
It might absolve them and others of the sh** they did over 30 years, but it doesn't absolve them of anything in this state.

BTW SF/PIRA may claim it is one country, but I think we can all work out how benefical the border is to some of their members. :rolleyes:
Hell SF representatives drew handsome expenses for being members of the UK parliament even though they never sat in the place. :rolleyes:

BTW I am not in FG nor ever have been.
I would support them because I think their policies and beliefs match mine more than any other party.

Jayuu

There seems to be a bit of a myth that because FF's support has fallen hugely, FG should automatically benefit and therefore because they haven't they're doing badly. It doesn't reflect reality. FF's has always had a hugely populist base on its vote and added to that has the strong republican core as well.

So its probably natural that as that support disintegrates its going to go all over the place. People who are centre to left politically will naturally trend towards Labour/Sinn Fein and people who are centre to right will trend towards FG. Therefore its not surprising that no one party has benefited completely from the decline in FF support. There is also a huge protest vote segment as well which is trending towards the most populist approach to our current economic disaster. That is now tending to trend SF's way at the moment having trended Labour earlier on in the year.


With regard to FG having the same policies in 2002 and 2007 as FF, it could be said that the same was true of all political parties in their own ways. There was no party advocating cuts or tax increases at the last election so I'm not sure why FG is being singled out for criticism here. Its also probably a legacy of the 1997 election when the Rainbow government offered a "slowly, slowly" manifesto for growth with smaller tax cuts only to be turned over by a FF/PD "tax cuts for everybody" approach.

The reality is that that average Irish voters have never thought long-term about economics policy and most likely never will. We are only interested in what we get in the short term. This leads to short-termism in party manifestos at elections.

And I have to say we're still on that path. As I've said about the strong growth in SF's performance is purely based on a protest vote against the EU/IMF deal and the idea that we can somehow cope by burning the bondholders, rejecting the bailout entirely and coming back to the markets in six months time to borrow more money. It's a populist approach and in the short-term its appeals to us because we are all angry at what has happened over the last two years. But economically it would be a huge risk and I haven't heard any independent economist suggest it as a good approach.

Up to the recent past Labour were getting that protest vote because they were taking a more populist line. Now that they've more clearly nailed their colours to the mast and adopted a more pragmatic line and we can see that there way also involves pain, that surge in support has ebbed.

steelcityblues

jmayo wrote: »

Most people know that FG will not solve all our problems and that they could be a hell of a lot better, but as Liam Byrne always says they are best we have at the moment.
ff are morally corrupt arrogant un accountable and need to be out of power for a long time.
I think Labour is in dream land, beholden to their union members and the rest including SF are living in cloud cuckoo land if they think leftist policies will do anything for us.

BTW can somebody tell me what is wrong with being pro law and order.










FG are not trusted or liked by huge chunk of voters, especially ex ffers and public service I would guess.



A green and a possible SF voter. I dispair.

Maybe if you were a wee bit older you might appreciate what this island was like when every night we heard of yet another attrocity in the news.
What was Ireland known for, but butchery.
I remember foreign students being surprised there weren't nightly bomb blasts in Galway or Limerick.

I remember Enniskillen, Warrington, Mountbatten, Garda Patrick Reynolds, Don Tidey's kidnapping, just like a remember The Heights Bar Loughinisland, Greysteel massacre, the Milltown cemetery attack and Omagh.

Maybe there was some justification in the early days, but where was the justification when kids and innocent people are being butchered, when the British government have removed the discriminatory rule of the loyalists ?
Where was the justification in the gutting of Robert Macartney ?

You were a kid when a garda, doing his duty to this state, was gunned down in cold blood by a bunch of thugs who supposedly were not linked to PIRA/SF, but yet years later SF fought for these peoples' rights and welcomed them on their release from prison.

I was working in Limerick at that time and I actually knew a fair few people who knew the son of the second garda that was in the car that day. He was lucky to survive.



Why not check out the Boss's stuff from the 70s rather than listening to the latest sh**e that passes as music.



How can SF be considered "respectable" when we have their public representatives picking up Garda killers from jail.
PIRA were supposed to have a ban on killing members of the Republic's security forces, yet they killed a garda in cold blood, while they were negotiating with our government and that of Britain.
Just this week a top secret communication stating adams and mcguinness knew about the Northern Bank robbery was leaked by wikileaks.

The Good Friday agreement was to solve a conflict that was happening in Northern Ireland, which no matter how much your favourite party may try and spin it is a different country to this.
It might absolve them and others of the sh** they did over 30 years, but it doesn't absolve them of anything in this state.

BTW SF/PIRA may claim it is one country, but I think we can all work out how benefical the border is to some of their members. :rolleyes:
Hell SF representatives drew handsome expenses for being members of the UK parliament even though they never sat in the place. :rolleyes:

BTW I am not in FG nor ever have been.
I would support them because I think their policies and beliefs match mine more than any other party.

Pro law and order usually means a few petty small measures closing down a few headshops and the like, while doing absolutely nothing about the bigger criminals swimming around - be it major drug dealers, bankers, corrupt developers, etc. I'll doubt FG will do any better here. grassroots campaigners like Tony Gregory did more to address the wider problems than anyone in FF/FG/LAB ever did.

I remember the day Jerry McCabe was murdered and the news bulletins (was a teenager, not a 'kid'), and it was a terribly sad incident. Just a shame his murder has been hijacked by nasty pieces of work like Harris, Cusack, O'Dea even still to this day. They won't let the man RIP. As for Ferris, he at least served his sentence unlike the brown envelopes brigade.

My reasons for voting SF for the fact that they are the only ones of the main parties to not give in to an unaccountable group from overseas seeing our economic future, and the fact that they never have been in government means they don't have the flaws of the others. Sad, because the big three parties are part of an absolute failure of a political system that I don't expect you to admit to. The GFA was about giving them and the unionist parties the chance to co-operate together,and create their own laws. Saying otherwise is pure revisionism.

Agree that maybe the party should swallow a bitter pill and sit in Westminster btw.

As for the Greens, they were at least a party with a proper agenda and radical streak at one point, and a more realistic choice than SF here in DSE. Didn't necessarily agree with issues like climate change, but at least you knewwhere they stood on most things. Shame they are more FF than FF at times now.

You say you are not an FG man, but only someone from the party could get so defensive when I or others have valid criticisms of them. At the moment all you're simply saying is 'your not FF' and that isn't enough IMO!

jmayo

steelcityblues wrote: »

Pro law and order usually means a few petty small measures closing down a few headshops and the like, while doing absolutely nothing about the bigger criminals swimming around - be it major drug dealers, bankers, corrupt developers, etc. I'll doubt FG will do any better here. grassroots campaigners like Tony Gregory did more to address the wider problems than anyone in FF/FG/LAB ever did.

Actually it was the FG/Labour government with Nora Owen that brought in CAB which was so successful it has been copied in many other jurisdictions.
That was probably one of the most revoluntary pieces of criminal legislation in the last 70 years, bar maybe the Special Criminal Courts which had to deal with your favourite party/their colleagues and their machinations to bring down this state.
You do know that it was only in the 80s that SF actually recognised the legitimacy of this state ?

Isn't a bit rich someone who is championing SF to be talking about law and order. :rolleyes:
Perhaps you would rather subscribe to the old SF methods of dealing with drug dealers or should that be some drug dealers ?
Hell next thing you will be asking us is where are our consciences. :rolleyes:

Yeah the same tony gregory backed charlie haughey in a sweet heart deal and his sucessor maureen o'sullivan has not been that backward in backing ff government.

steelcityblues wrote: »

I remember the day Jerry McCabe was murdered and the news bulletins (was a teenager, not a 'kid'), and it was a terribly sad incident. Just a shame his murder has been hijacked by nasty pieces of work like Harris, Cusack, O'Dea even still to this day. They won't let the man RIP.

How can the man rest in peace when you have elected representatives in this state who refuse to acknowledge what was done to him was wrong and that the people that did it should be condemmed ?
Tell that to his wife who had to confront your party's leader and he refused to condemm the actions of some of his party's members and supporters.
I'll bet at the same time you will be like the rest of the SF brigade mouthing off about some dead martyrs or other.
So less of the "let bygones be bygones".
Dragging out the dead is something SF supporters resort to when it suits them.
Speaking of letting victims rest in peace, how long has it taken for the IRA to point out the ones they dumped in some God forsaken hole on some very dark nights ?

steelcityblues wrote: »

As for Ferris, he at least served his sentence unlike the brown envelopes brigade.

So you compare some corrupt twat who has taken backhanders to allow planning go ahead, etc, with a guy who was caught with a trawler full of arms and explosives to kill and maim people. :rolleyes:

Then you claim FG do nothing about Law and Order.

You are almost as bad as the person themselves who had the gall to get up in the Dail and ask paul gogarty (whom I hate) where was his conscience.
If gogarty had a faster intellect he might have countered with
"where was yours the day you collected the killers from Castlerea? "

steelcityblues wrote: »

My reasons for voting SF for the fact that they are the only ones of the main parties to not give in to an unaccountable group from overseas seeing our economic future, and the fact that they never have been in government means they don't have the flaws of the others.

No they got different flaws.
I reckon most people would consider SF buddies on the Army Council to be an unaccountable group as well.

You claim your reasons for voting for SF is to do with IMF/ECB yet you trot out all the usual party sh**e on the McCabe murder, the GFA, etc.
Forgive me for being cynical. :rolleyes:

BTW on their economic proposals, do you think SF's idea of somehow being able to dismiss the markets, dump all our debts, continue to keep current expenditure and somehow taxing our way out of the mess will work ?

steelcityblues wrote: »

Agree that maybe the party should swallow a bitter pill and sit in Westminster btw.

I couldn't care less if they never sat in Westminister, but they shouldn't be so two faced as to accept expenses then.
One thing that always made me luagh was how you had IRA volunteers fighting against the crown, but they had no problem accepting the crowns dole. :rolleyes:

steelcityblues wrote: »

You say you are not an FG man, but only someone from the party could get so defensive when I or others have valid criticisms of them. At the moment all you're simply saying is 'your not FF' and that isn't enough IMO!

it doesn't matter to me if you believe me or not.
No I am not saying that FG is just "not ff".
They are also not Labour, and definetly not SF.
I think they are the only hope this country has, and that is not great.

If a consortium of the left ever was to take over we would be doomed to some cocked up socialist experiment, where anyone that did try to achive something would be lectured to by the jack o'connors and brendan ogles of this country.

BTW isn't it rich you claiming I am belonging to a party, when it is you who is the one using the standard mantras of one of the political parties.

Now I am drawing a line on this as I have better things to do with my weekend.

steelcityblues

The fact that you have gone off from the original subject matter in your posts and attacked SF, FF, LAB, unions, republicans, IRA, etc. kind of highlights that you really know your party of choice don't stand for much on their own.

Anyway, best to you!

Oasis_Dublin

jmayo wrote: »

I couldn't care less if they never sat in Westminister, but they shouldn't be so two faced as to accept expenses then.
One thing that always made me luagh was how you had IRA volunteers fighting against the crown, but they had no problem accepting the crowns dole. :rolleyes:

I agree with the majority of what you have written but surely it was in Sinn Féin's interest to take free money from the British in order to finance their campaigns. I'd gladly take free money from any country and still fight against them imposing themselves upon me. Just a thought...