Racism In The Taxi Industry

-Chris-

I heard about this on Newstalk yesterday (you can listen to it here: http://media.newstalk.ie/listenback/202/friday/1/popup. It starts at 24m01s).

http://www.nuigalway.ie/human_rights/ridingalongwithracism.html

Research on the Galway Taxi Industry: Employment Opportunities, Patterns of Public Use and User Perceptions

A new report researched and drafted by the Irish Centre for Human Rights verifies and documents allegations of racism through interviews and surveys on the taxi industry in Galway, Ireland.

...The results of this research form a concise, but also encompassing report, which can replace untested statements and often reactionary comments with detailed knowledge and a deeper understanding.

...Dr. Jaichand positions the report within a context where, “Racism has become an increasingly noticeable element in the backdrop to Galway life. Nationally and locally, reports of race-based incidents reflect an increase in the growing anxieties of the general population, due to the inevitable hardships of a recession and intensified competition over jobs and resources. Racial discrimination should never be justified and accommodated because human rights are not a luxury to be observed only when we are a well-off society.”

Protecting and promoting human dignity has been the foundation of work at the Irish Centre for Human Rights at NUI Galway since its inception in 2000. The Centre pursues this work in all contexts, internationally and locally, through research, teaching, advocacy and community engagement. Speaking during the recent tenth anniversary celebrations of the Centre, the Director, Professor William Schabas said that, “This report, which we believe will have real consequences in addressing local tensions in Galway, confirms the contribution that the Irish Centre for Human Rights makes to the city.” He added that, “This is a fundamental issue that should concern us all, one which requires prompt attention to correct the situation.”

I realise I may be opening a can of worms with this, but I personally worry about this kind of thing and have seen what I consider latent racism from Taxi drivers.

What are people's opinions or experiences of this? Do our resident Taxi drivers have any views? Is there a way to minimise or fix this?


Modnote: Where giving anecdotal experience, please keep it to yourself or one person removed, no "I heard about a fella who..." or that kind of stuff.
Also, this is a topic for civil discussion, the first person to call a Taxi driver a scumbag (or whatever your preferred epithet is) is going to get an instant ban.

aphex™

This is all imaginary rubbish by the media. Do taxi drivers who arrived from Africa 6 months ago magically know where everything is? No? Oh, we must give them a job now because Newstalk said so!

Also, how do I know somebody isn't a convicted rapist in their home country? Oh, I must not ask and automatically send my 16-year old daughter home with him or I might offend Newstalk.

These are the issues here.

del88

I've heard a lot of racist remarks in taxies and on building sites....probably no accident that these are areas where there's been an disproportional rise in the amount of foreign nationals seeking employment......racism is often born out of fear...a lot of people feel there lively hood and their ability to feed their family or pay there mortgage is been threatened be that perceived or real......personally i think we should have a visa system similar to Australia,America,Canada .....If we need more taxi men or plumbers we give out temporary visas...if we don't ,we don't.....simple

Terrontress

My view on it is that it is just a symptom of the rapid multiculturalism of Ireland and the country is just trying to catch up leading to racism in the taxi industry and in other areas of life.

If you go to many other countries, you see one of two things. Either extremely high barrier to get in to taxiing and a mainly indigenous taxi driving population (i.e. London or Munich). Or low barriers to entry and a large immigrant taxi driving population (New York).

Ireland has had low barriers to becoming a taxi driver for quite some time. I am not talking about owning a plate. Just being a taxi driver. It has existed for decades. There has not been the immigrant population to take advantage of this until relatively recently.

Taxi drivers are finding it tough and if a percentage of other taxis were to disappear then they'd earn a few more quid. But how would you decide which percentage?

That is where the racism starts.

Terrontress

aphex™ wrote: »

This is all imaginary rubbish by the media. Do taxi drivers who arrived from Africa 6 months ago magically know where everything is? No? Oh, we must give them a job now because Newstalk said so!

Also, how do I know somebody isn't a convicted rapist in their home country? Oh, I must not ask and automatically send my 16-year old daughter home with him or I might offend Newstalk.

These are the issues here.

How do you know an Irish taxi driver isn't an undetected rapist? Or someone who is getting ready to commit his first rape?

If you go through your life suspecting everyone of being a rapist then you'll never leave your front door.

You will be a lot happier if you look for the good in society instead of the bad.

aphex™

Terrontress wrote: »

How do you know an Irish taxi driver isn't an undetected rapist?
.

I assume the Garda background check system works, thanks. I find your point a bit ridiculous, I don't go around fearing everybody is a rapist. If you are a taxi driver, you have to prove you're not. That's the point. We assume it works.

I have faith in this system. However, you can't do a background check to other non-eu countries. If this was gotten around I am sure more taxi companies would give non-nationals a job.

-Chris-

But surely, if they're working here, they're either EU or they have a working visa and therefore have a traceable history back to their country of origin.

aphex™

-Chris- wrote: »

But surely, if they're working here, they're either EU or they have a working visa and therefore have a traceable history back to their country of origin.

If you are African origin (say) and you get a visa you do not bring any traceable history from your country.

You see, when you listen to bleeding hearts on Newstalk/ the media they tend to leave out the actual issues. Such as, no proper way of doing a background check on a non-national. Which is a basic element of the system.

Terrontress

aphex™ wrote: »

If you are African origin (say) and you get a visa you do not bring any traceable history from your country.

You see, when you listen to bleeding hearts on Newstalk/ the media they tend to leave out the actual issues. Such as, no proper way of doing a background check on a non-national. Which is a basic element of the system.

Given that you have bought this up, how many taxi drivers do you believe have been convicted of rape in a Non EU country and are currently driving taxis in Ireland?

delta_bravo

del88 wrote: »

I've heard a lot of racist remarks in taxies and on building sites....probably no accident that these are areas where there's been an disproportional rise in the amount of foreign nationals seeking employment......racism is often born out of fear...a lot of people feel there lively hood and their ability to feed their family or pay there mortgage is been threatened be that perceived or real.

Very good point. Fear is a major driving factor in this. The industry is one with very limited barriers to entry and is low skill so new entrants are not welcomed as there is a clear oversupply.

I'm currently doing a dip for 2nd level teaching and employment is a major problem in this also. Our area of contention is unqualified and retired teachers taking up posts that could be given to qualified newer teachers. It bears some similiarities.

The problem with the taxi business is that almost anyone can do it. The market is in a massive state of oversupply but since prices are fixed the market cannot adjust so what will inevitably happen is taxi drivers facing a lot of hardship and will be forced to quit.

aphex™

Terrontress wrote: »

Given that you have bought this up, how many taxi drivers do you believe have been convicted of rape in a Non EU country and are currently driving taxis in Ireland?

I have no idea, and that's what scares me!

The idea is you prove you're not.

aphex™

delta_bravo wrote: »

Very good point. Fear is a major driving factor in this. The industry is one with very limited barriers to entry and is low skill so new entrants are not welcomed as there is a clear oversupply.

That's not a good point. It's not actual racism. You will find taxi drivers are also angry about part timers who are Irish. But, you're saying that's racism because some of those part timers are black?

Terrontress

aphex™ wrote: »

I have no idea, and that's what scares me!

The idea is you prove you're not.

I have no idea either but I suspect it is negligible. And until I get some compelling arguments otherwise I will presume the best in everyone, regardless of their skin colour or origin.

aphex™

Terrontress wrote: »

I have no idea either but I suspect it is negligible. And until I get some compelling arguments otherwise I will presume the best in everyone, regardless of their skin colour or origin.

Really? That's nice.

Did you know people can be given asylum here for being a murderer though? If you attacked people with a machete and fled your country and came to Ireland, you would be given asylum because the penalty you face if sent home is the death penalty.

The above is an actual reason somebody used for claiming asylum in Ireland. I have used the details behind it to illustrate a point, so even if you don't like anecdotal evidence, you can hopefully understand that the above case is likely to be true. So I, unlike you I don't automatically assume the best in everybody. I have a real world view and know what really goes on in this country. Maybe you'd like to visit Somalia one day? And, because you assume the best in people, invite some of the characters you meet there to be taxi drivers here?

So, before we entrust our daughters with a taxi driver, legislation dictates we do a background check. But this isn't possible, which is a failing of the taxi regulator.

highlydebased

Doesnt bother me who is operating a taxi (as long as they are doing it legally) and they get me home safe. I have to give directions to where I live anywho...

AlekSmart

Which is a failing of the Taxi Regulator.

Aphex is quite correct here.

Newstalk,and indeed most of the Irish Media,have a host of in-house predispositions and issues their managements wish to see pushed forward onto the Irish Stage.

Currently,Racism is the flavour of the month,especially in the public-facing areas such as the Taxi "Industry"

The prevalence of "racism" within any one sector of society merely reflects the base ethos of that society itself.

I`m not aware of any country,region,continent on this planet which does not have to deal with the reality that the human race is comprised of different ethnic groupings,most of which,possess quite differing sets of behavioural traits and practices.

The Newstalk line appears to focus on some fiendishly desireable need for everybody to suddenly forget the reality of their own background instead developing a sudden all-encompassing desire to embrace a totally different,and perhaps alien culture and behavioural norms.

This nice soft-focus approach,so beloved of the Media,appears to require,as its primary power-source,a complete suspension of reality and reasonable judgement in order to achieve some wildly inappropriate Nirvana.

In this particular case I would,as always,look to the source of
whatever report is at issue.

The rather basic check and balance of "Who payeth the Piper-Calleth the Tune" should always be kept in mind when reading and interpreting any such supposedly authorititive reports.

I would,for example,regard any piece of work issuing from "An Essential Partner in the Galway City Partnership Anti-Racism Strategy" with a certain degree of caution and perhaps a complimentary level of detachment as to it`s conclusions.

If we take a quote from the reports introduction.....

Dr. Vinodh Jaichand, Deputy Director of the Centre, led this methodological, evidence-based research into the question of racism within the Galway city taxi industry, focusing on employment opportunities and user practices and perceptions. The results of this research form a concise, but also encompassing report, which can replace untested statements and often reactionary comments with detailed knowledge and a deeper understanding.

I feel this type of scene-setting,of itself,identifies a pre-disposition to consider whatever evidence is gathered in a particular light,favourable only to the ethos of the Report`s commissioning body.

The reality of the issue here has Sod-All to do with Racism or Galway or indeed Ireland as a whole.

It has everything to do with our National Inability to concieve and put-in-place proper structures to regulate our civil structures,of which Private Hire and Public Transport are but two.

The issues here are Administrative ones relative to the Taxi "Industry" whereby a somewhat ill-judged and irrational Politically motivated deregulation theory was embraced and enforced by Politicians who had absolutely no-idea of what the intricacies of the business were.

In my opinion The attention paid to reports such as this only serves to deflect attention from the myriad of REAL superimposed issues which now bedevil the regulation of Taxi`s countrywide !! :cool:

SeanW

Terrontress wrote: »

And until I get some compelling arguments otherwise I will presume the best in everyone ...

Especially if they're foreign, and criminals?

You do have a history of taking the P.C. line to beyond its logical conclusion.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055936283

I Was VB

Few things that have to be noted, the taxi regulator has come on and said that any potental customer has the right to choose any taxi they like from a taxi rank. So if a black driver is 1st car and a irish driver is second they can go to the irish driver (if he so pleases).

Secondly, regarding radio company's. There is usually a waiting list to get into them regardless if your white or black its just the way things go.

When i 1st started driving a taxi i applied for a airport permit, they said that they've a waiting list to get it. There is alot of cultural diffrences between Non Irish driver and Irish drivers as to the way things work in the taxi business.

It's also wrong to label the taxi driver as racist, it perpetuates a negitive stereotype that all Irish drivers are racist and that all Non-Irish drivers are victims of racism.

n97 mini

Many would see particular groups largely as uninvited guests to this country. It has been raised before where we needed people to work in certain industries but we did not need large numbers of unskilled people, many of whom came in through the asylum system and are still here because they were granted asylum, or because the loop-hole that was the Irish Born Child scheme, or have simply gone underground as is the case with the majority that were given deportation notices. Many of these would have been African and have entered the taxi industry.

There is naturally going to be animosity towards these as a result, and is not helped by the fact that many had to make use of the social welfare system and/or local authority housing schemes for one reason prior to entering the industry.

I think it's quite understandable and is a result of the govt's often incoherent position/lack of policy on immigration.

Terrontress

SeanW wrote: »

Especially if they're foreign, and criminals?

You do have a history of taking the P.C. line to beyond its logical conclusion.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055936283

All I am saying is that because a person is black it does not make them any more likely to be a rapist than a white person.

People use extremely emotive arguments about "our daughters" but the fact is that the black guys driving taxis are just trying to make a few quid, same as anyone else and should not be viewed as a potential rapist or potential anything else other than a trip home.

And just because someone is black does not necessarily mean they are foreign. Phil Lynott, Paul McGrath and Samantha Mumba are three black Irish people who have represented Ireland

ClovenHoof

I would have to say the most racists and appalling creatures I have ever encountered in my life were driving taxis in Dublin. Several were utterly insane and many others were criminals. Every last one of these cretins was Irish and white.

I know there are plenty of decent taxi drivers too. But it is an industry with some really hardcore lowlifes in it too.

Vic_08

Terrontress wrote: »

All I am saying is that because a person is black it does not make them any more likely to be a rapist than a white person.

Really? What do you base this fact on? Is there any actual evidence you have to support this?

I am guessing not as crime statistics from most developed countries show a higher % of criminal activity from certain ethnic groups than from indigenous populations.

Terrontress wrote: »

People use extremely emotive arguments about "our daughters" but the fact is that the black guys driving taxis are just trying to make a few quid, same as anyone else and should not be viewed as a potential rapist or potential anything else other than a trip home.

The point the previous poster was making that you just don't appear to be able to understand was that Irish and EU taxi drivers (regardless of their ethnicity) have submitted to a criminal records check whereas those of African and most other non-EU countries have not.

Obviously there is a reason why it is deemed necessary for these checks to be provided for those wishing to drive a taxi, it is not unreasonable for passengers or their families to be more cautious when it comes to taxi drivers who have not passed this check due to their nationality.

Terrontress wrote: »

And just because someone is black does not necessarily mean they are foreign. Phil Lynott, Paul McGrath and Samantha Mumba are three black Irish people who have represented Ireland

To my knowledge none of those individuals drove a taxi. I Challenge you to find a black taxi driver in Ireland that is from Ireland, UK or EU. You can make as many PC generalisations as you wish, it won't change the fact that there are now a very high number of black taxi drivers across Ireland and the vast majority of them are not of Irish/EU origin.

-Chris-

-Chris- wrote: »

Also, this is a topic for civil discussion, the first person to call a Taxi driver a scumbag (or whatever your preferred epithet is) is going to get an instant ban.

ClovenHoof wrote: »

I would have to say the most racists and appalling creatures I have ever encountered in my life were driving taxis in Dublin. Several were utterly insane and many others were criminals. Every last one of these cretins was Irish and white.

I know there are plenty of decent taxi drivers too. But it is an industry with some really hardcore lowlifes in it too.

Clovenhoof banned for 3 days for ignoring mod request.

oisindoyle

Dear Editor,

With reference to the report on the Galway Taxi Industry; Employment Opportunities, Patterns of Public use and User Perceptions, compiled by the Irish Centre for Human Rights.

As Galway Taxis is a named entity in this report, Galway Taxis while not wishing to inflame or encourage further divergence in relation to allegations of racism within the taxi industry in Galway, must respond to a report which calls for and makes recommendations for the withdrawal of any contractual service arrangements with any taxi company investigated in this report and alludes that Galway Taxis was investigated.

Firstly let us confirm in no uncertain terms that Galway Taxis were never investigated by anyone from the Irish Centre for Human Rights, in relation to this report.

Under the Heading “Taxi Company Management,” the report makes an assumption that all companies knew about the research and had different reactions to the process.

I can confirm Galway Taxis knew absolutely nothing about any research until hearing Dr Vinodh Jaichand on Galway Bay FM on the Keith Finnegan Show on December 1. And finding an envelope left in our front office on the same day with a draft copy of a 65-page report, and affording us until 16.00hrs on December 2 to respond, and also stating that the report may not be quoted until the final version is published. Yet the very author of the report was publically quoting from same on Galway Bay FM the very same morning.

In relation to Galway Taxis the report states “ Our attempts at interviewing Galway Taxis were revealing” and goes on to outline how a researcher arrived into the public office of Galway Taxis at 1.50pm on Friday October 10 unannounced and without pre-warning or notice and looked from one of our dispatchers, identified as a front desk person (we don’t have a front desk person), for someone from management to answer a questionnaire, was duly informed there was no one from management there, and to call back.

It is worth noting that Friday is our busiest day, and as all of our management committee are full time self employed taxi drivers, we are never present in the office on Fridays; we are out working trying to earn a living.

The Report then states “Our researcher never went back as we had made every reasonable effort to get their views.”

If this is what the author of the report believes is every reasonable attempt to ascertain our views, I would contend the very credibility of this report in any form is totally in question.

In fact to make recommendations for a withdrawal of contracts on the basis of so called investigations on this basis is in fact scandalous.

Furthermore to set the record straight in relation to employment opportunities for taxi drivers within our co-op and in the interest of openness and transparency we would like to state the following;

Galway Taxis was founded as a co-operative society 25 years ago by 14 Galway taxi drivers to provide a better service to the people of Galway; We come under the rules and regulations of the Registrar for Friendly Societies. As all co-operatives in Ireland we have a constitution and rules which comply with the Register of Friendly Societies of Ireland. We are also the holder of a valid dispatch licence issued by the Taxi Regulator, and are in compliance fully with the law as is set out.

Galway Taxis does not employ any taxi driver; every member of Galway Taxis is an equal shareholder and is a self employed entity in his or her own right.

The guts of the finding in this report states “that taxi companies can operate under the radar of the anti-racism laws if they become an organisation akin to a private club and each driver is a shareholder, who vet new-comers to their business under a silent code.”

This statement in fact in relation to Galway Taxis shows the complete ignorance by the author of the report, to co-operative society law in Ireland, and indeed the Registrar of Friendly Societies. Co-operatives are fully transparent and have to be by law, their business records are audited yearly, and as is their constitution which includes any criteria for entry and is available for full public scrutiny at all times as set out in law.

No creditability can be afforded to this report or its findings and recommendations as a result of this blatant and biased statement.

To become a shareholder you must purchase a share in the co-operative societyy when one becomes available, and the market value will set the share price, comply with the entrance criteria as set out in the constitution, which includes a knowledge test and as a shareholder you will be obliged to pay a weekly contribution towards the running costs of the co-op, the employment of dispatch staff, office costs, advertising, etc.

Galway Taxis went from an original 14 shareholders to a high of 132 in the Celtic Tiger years, and in the last number of years has reduced its size to 114, by our existing shareholders buying out older shareholders, in the interest of reducing our fleet size to protect the income potential of our remaining shareholders through the present difficult climate.

Galway Taxis has built up a very strong business and client base over 25 years providing quality service, quality vehicles, and providing quality drivers with vast local knowledge, when people ring 091-561111 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 091-561111 end_of_the_skype_highlighting or go to one of our taxis anywhere in Galway it is by choice, it would not be uncommon for Galway Taxis to have carried their grandfather, father, mother, and indeed all of their family for years, this is what you call established business and good will. It takes a lot of hard work over a very long period of time to encapture this good will from the people of Galway, we make no apology to anyone for that business and long may it continue. To try to associate that preference with racism defeats the very purpose of this very poorly constructed report.

The customers freedom of choice to give their business to whomever they may choose is tantamount to fair procedure and natural justice, it appears the author is suggesting that members of the public should be forced to take the first vehicle in a rank, even if their wish is to go with another one, the legality of this proposal is totally suspect.

It is our considered opinion that the author of the report may well be very qualified in certain matters, however his knowledge of the taxi industry is sadly lacking, and indeed of the views given of abuse by African drivers in the report clearly demonstrates the lack of knowledge these people had on entering the business (As so many did in recent years without properly investigating fully the type of business they were entering).

Examples;

Customers often pass a Galway Taxi, and pick another company.

All of our taxi drivers are constantly abused by customers, (stupid, thick, ugly, etc)

Aggressive behaviour is common especially late at night.

African customers almost always will pass a white driver.

Origin statements; you’re from Dublin, what are you driving a taxi here for?

Non payment of fares quite common,

And reports of African drivers stealing booked work are daily.

The list can become endless, and is equally abusive to drivers of all heritage, the difference being the mature and experienced taxi driver is well aware that part and parcel of being a taxi driver and dealing with the public when they can be at their worst is part and parcel of what the job entails.

It is noticed in the figures given in the report, that the majority of drivers in the ranks at the times of survey were African. This can exasperate the problem for drivers from companies who cannot get into the ranks, It can further exacerbate a customer who uses by choice one particular company, and cannot find its cars on the ranks.

Finally it would be our view, a point that appears to be missed in the report content is that the African drivers are a relatively new entity into the Galway taxi arena, the successful taxi business is established on trust, acceptance, customer comfort and want, waiting times, etc. Any new entity into the market must establish itself with the public and business sector in a proactive and positive fashion. Customers do not want to hear about your problems, they have enough of their own, since their arrival the African drivers are constantly associated with stories of them being treated badly and in a racist fashion by almost everybody. This attitude and indeed the content and layout of this report as outlined is not helping any genuine grievance they may have.

Galway Taxis stands firmly against racism in all its forms, and will continue to do so; We operate our co-op in an open and lawful way, and will not accept unwarranted comment in what has to be classified in our view as a very incomplete and unprofessional report. This year alone we played our part in raising almost €100,000 for Cancer Care West, every week we as a co-op put money back into the community.

When that person walks past your taxi and picks or flags another one, the colour of your skin more often than not has nothing to do with it; maturity is the wisdom and knowledge to know that.

Yours,

Gerry Corbett,

Chairman,

Galway Taxis

Ham'nd'egger

It has been a few weeks since I posted here but this is a worthy topic to discuss; thank you to Chris Mod for allowing it.

As a taxi driver, I will hold my hand up and say that yes, the racism is a massive problem with the image of my job. I personally am sick of the language used by drivers but to be brutally honest, some of their opinions have been formed by what they see and hear on a daily basis. And let it be said, I also hear the same stories from passengers so it is not by any means one way traffic.

To clarify for those that don't know, when an individual applies for a PSV licence a background check is done by a section of the Gardaí. However, this search is limited to those records that the State hold; no investigations are done outside of the State for non Irish people so those with convictions outside of Ireland are not vetted. Even if they were able to vet international convictions, those whom the Gardaí say are unsuitable to hold a PSV simply appeal it through the courts and invariably they win subject to probation. Sure, Mr X Case even drove a taxi and he virtually collapsed our Constitution FFS!!!

The other pre requisite required (A Tax clearance cert or TC1) is something that every resident in the State can apply for. All this shows is that your tax affairs are up to date or soon to be. If you have not worked a day in your life, you will get a Tax Clearance; if you have worked PAYE you will get one and if you didn't live in Ireland you will get one; it is a doddle to get once you have a PPS number.

Until recently a test for a PSV was at best a 1 hour test. Given the huge amount of applicants and the lack of fresh test papers, it was easy to learn the answers. Grind colleges used to literally sell you the answers and people were willing to pay over €300+ for same. Many counties didn't even have a test so it was less hassle again for anybody to apply. The test was too easy to fiddle and too easy to cheat with. Again, all you need is a form, a driving licence and a PPS number.

Yes, there is an issue with non national taxi drivers out there who don't know anywhere but the fact is that the Regulator sits over such a porous system and can not and will not do anything to address what are basic issues. I don't care where a cab driver comes from or his skin colour but there is no way that people from wherever it may be can arrive into Dublin and be well versed in it's pubs, streets, hospitals etc in a few months; this applies equally if you come from Cork or Galway or anywhere else in Ireland.

To look at another market, TfL ask all it's applicants to provide criminal clearance as part of their taxi driver applications and is renowned for the most knowledgeable cab drivers of any city in the world and as a result people have confidence in it's cab market and yet they also preside over a free and "liberalized" market where everybody can apply for a PSV. The only difference between them and us is that they have a decent standard that everybody needs to hit before they can work, Kathleen Doyle hasn't bothered her arse and I'm not expecting her to either.

Terrontress

I have met many decent black taxi drivers and, personally speaking, I would have no more issue with my wife and child travelling with a black taxi driver than I would have any other taxi driver.

One thing to point out is that each taxi has a brightly lit number on the roof and displayed inside the vehicle as well. Also, the name of the driver should be inside the car. I do not believe that a taxi is a good place to conduct violent criminal behaviour due to the ease of identification.

Nevertheless, I take the point that it may not be possible to conduct checks on non-EU nationals. If we believe that the vast, vast majority of taxi drivers are honest then this might be viewed as a shame for those non-EU drivers who do not have the same opportunity as EU drivers to prove their good character.

Ham'nd'egger

Terrontress wrote: »

Nevertheless, I take the point that it may not be possible to conduct checks on non-EU nationals. If we believe that the vast, vast majority of taxi drivers are honest then this might be viewed as a shame for those non-EU drivers who do not have the same opportunity as EU drivers to prove their good character.

Which is why TfL ask you to provide the background check from your police force. In fairness, if Victor from Nigeria went to, say, apply for work as a accountant, he'd need to provide proof he went to study and qualified, wether it was in Lagos Accountancy College or UCD; it's easy enough for Doyle to ask for such a report from any PSV applicant, both current and prosective.

-Chris-

Hamndegger wrote: »

To clarify for those that don't know, when an individual applies for a PSV licence a background check is done by a section of the Gardaí. However, this search is limited to those records that the State hold; no investigations are done outside of the State for non Irish people so those with convictions outside of Ireland are not vetted. Even if they were able to vet international convictions, those whom the Gardaí say are unsuitable to hold a PSV simply appeal it through the courts and invariably they win subject to probation. Sure, Mr X Case even drove a taxi and he virtually collapsed our Constitution FFS!!!

Can I get a clarification on this point?

If a French national came to Ireland and wanted to get a PSV licence, the only search done would be of whether they committed a crime in Ireland. There would be no investigation into their history in France or any other EU country?

Ham'nd'egger

-Chris- wrote: »

Can I get a clarification on this point?

If a French national came to Ireland and wanted to get a PSV licence, the only search done would be of whether they committed a crime in Ireland. There would be no investigation into their history in France or any other EU country?

That is the case, yes. The Gardaí only have access to their own records in relation to PSV applications; that typically means a search on PULSE.

-Chris-

Hamndegger wrote: »

That is the case, yes. The Gardaí only have access to their own records in relation to PSV applications; that typically means a search on PULSE.

Does that not completely negate the argument that people should be more afraid of African drivers as they are of unknown history?

Really, the only people we can "trust" are people who have spent their entire adult lives in Ireland, anyone else is an elevated threat. Even then, due to the appeals process it's not even that black and white.

beagle001

I find from experience that the African drivers I have taken a taxi with constantly over charge and have to use a sat nav to find my estate just outside the city.
The same has being happening with white drivers of late,they are desperate for business and will take the longer route,hence I now only take cabs at a set rate and I don`t care who is driving it as long as I get home and not ripped off.
Big problem in Galway is the African drivers have their mates driving the car when it should be off the road thus creating a traffic nitemare at times in eyre square and along the bridge near the police station.
We all know what should have happend in the taxi industry but unfortunately the govt does not care as it does not directly affect them.
Maybe change the ministerial mercs to the ministers having to depend on a taxi and pay for it out of their own pocket things would soon change.

mbiking123

You might get someone as nice as an ex-taliban leader like Osman Hotak

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-8626846/Former-Taliban-official-who-occupied.html

I think we should know who is driving these taxi's. In fact I think we need to know more about who lives in our area.

-Chris-

mbiking123 wrote: »

You might get someone as nice as an ex-taliban leader like Osman Hotak

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-8626846/Former-Taliban-official-who-occupied.html

I think we should know who is driving these taxi's. In fact I think we need to know more about who lives in our area.

Was he driving a taxi here?

Do you have any proof he was a dangerous man? I'm not sure what's entailed in being an official in Afghanistan's Ministry of Culture (under the repressive Taliban regime).

mbiking123

Was he driving a taxi here?

Do you have any proof he was a dangerous man? I'm not sure what's entailed in being an official in Afghanistan's Ministry of Culture (under the repressive Taliban regime).

No he was not working in Ireland

Yes lots of proof he is dangerous, he was the ring leader of the 'St Patricks Cathedral' incident back in 2006. Afterwards it was discovered that he was one of the older guys the talked the younger to threaten to throw themselves onto Cathedral floor from roof area. This is what happens with suicide bombers. Talked into doing it be older adults with false promises. He was doing the same in Ireland as Taliban do in Afghanistan

he admitted to being member of the Taliban and killing people back home

They should not have been refused alysum, but extradited for murder

Anyway back to the point, we need clarification on who is driving taxi's including white Irish born people

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/city-news/garda-alert-after-woman-raped-in-taxi-1429634.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-11958285


http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/Limerick-taxi-driver-who-raped.6055710.jp

these are just 3 examples that I found and you will to by using google

Ham'nd'egger

-Chris- wrote: »

Does that not completely negate the argument that people should be more afraid of African drivers as they are of unknown history?

Really, the only people we can "trust" are people who have spent their entire adult lives in Ireland, anyone else is an elevated threat. Even then, due to the appeals process it's not even that black and white.

It means it is an issue with any non national driver, including my friend who is from Scotland and another who is English. It can also apply to any Irish person who lived out of the State so it's a lot of people we are talking about here. Until such time as Kathleen Doyle's office deals with the current vetting process to cover those who lived abroad it will continue to be the case.

Terrontress

I think the whole criminal checking procedure might be a bit of a red herring in this discussion.

In the current economic environment and with the current number of taxis operating, do people think that other taxi drivers would welcome black drivers with open arms if a full criminal check could be done back to Lagos or beyond?

In addition, there have been high profile examples of known Dublin born and bred criminals driving taxis. Just because a taxi driver has a white face does not mean he is whiter than white in terms of his past or that he is Irish.

Finally, in relation to the wicked black men raping our daughters. Violent crime such as that is very extreme behaviour and there are very few people capable of it. To claim a black taxi driver is more likely to commit violent crime than a white taxi driver is unfair in the extreme.

foggy_lad

Just on the rape issue does anyone have figures for the number of rapes per year by black Africans broken down by country that can be compared to the number of rapes committed here by white Irish people?

I doubt any African country has figures that are accurate in any way compared to the figures available in western countries. The truth though is that there is a culture in many African countries where rape or forced sex is not seen as a crime at all. In some areas rape especially marital rape is ignored by authorities so it has become the norm, almost a male right.

To say this thinking does not follow in Ireland for African immigrants and asylum seekers is deluded dangerous and irresponsible.

Terrontress

foggy_lad wrote: »

Just on the rape issue does anyone have figures for the number of rapes per year by black Africans broken down by country that can be compared to the number of rapes committed here by white Irish people?

I doubt any African country has figures that are accurate in any way compared to the figures available in western countries. The truth though is that there is a culture in many African countries where rape or forced sex is not seen as a crime at all. In some areas rape especially marital rape is ignored by authorities so it has become the norm, almost a male right.

To say this thinking does not follow in Ireland for African immigrants and asylum seekers is deluded dangerous and irresponsible.

Does anyone have the figures for armed ambush in African states compared to Ireland?

Or the number of people who bribe police?

Or shooting lions?


To say that the sheer numbers of people shooting lions in Africa are not going to do the same up in Dublin zoo etc. etc.

You are not comparing like with like.

By the way, convictions of marital rape in Ireland are an absolute disgrace to a so-called developed nation. I'd say your description of marital rape being almost ignored and being seen as a male right could sum up Ireland quite easily.

Take a look through Google and see what you come up with.

Sorry for responding to take this o/t.

samboshy

Allegations of a black taxi driver rapist are purely fictitious and fabricated, some of the racism i've experienced from irish taxi drivers is absolutely disgraceful. When i hear a racist comment i refuse to sit in his car and demand to be let out.

-Chris-

Terrontress wrote: »

I think the whole criminal checking procedure might be a bit of a red herring in this discussion.

Absolutely.

Terrontress wrote: »

Finally, in relation to the wicked black men raping our daughters. Violent crime such as that is very extreme behaviour and there are very few people capable of it. To claim a black taxi driver is more likely to commit violent crime than a white taxi driver is unfair in the extreme racism.

Am I wrong?

tinofapples

aphex™ wrote: »

I assume the Garda background check system works, thanks. I find your point a bit ridiculous, I don't go around fearing everybody is a rapist. If you are a taxi driver, you have to prove you're not. That's the point. We assume it works.

I have faith in this system. However, you can't do a background check to other non-eu countries. If this was gotten around I am sure more taxi companies would give non-nationals a job.

Correct, criminal conviction certainly something of a sexual nature should mean no PSV licence if relevant person (Garda) is doing there job right.

biko

foggy_lad wrote: »

Just on the rape issue does anyone have figures for the number of rapes per year by black Africans broken down by country that can be compared to the number of rapes committed here by white Irish people?

This probably off-topic but since you asked I'll give an example:
In the Oslo Police Rape Report 2007 it shows a marked increase in Somali rapists, generally on account of gang rapes.

In Oslo all rapes for 2007, 2008 and 2009 have been committed by people from MENA. Year previous to that over 70% of the rapists were non-Norwegian (but 14% of population).

It seems to be a "black on white crime" situation with the majority of perps being non-white MENA while the majority of victims are white Norwegians.

One thing the rapes had in common was use of much brutality, the victims said they thought they would be killed.

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article190268.ece
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvlFm4AwAqI

There doesn't seem to be similar stats available for Ireland, that I could find.
A lot of countries doesn't make that type of stats available as they fear it would fuel racism.

Mucco

Hamndegger wrote: »

To look at another market, TfL ask all it's applicants to provide criminal clearance as part of their taxi driver applications and is renowned for the most knowledgeable cab drivers of any city in the world and as a result people have confidence in it's cab market and yet they also preside over a free and "liberalized" market where everybody can apply for a PSV. The only difference between them and us is that they have a decent standard that everybody needs to hit before they can work, Kathleen Doyle hasn't bothered her arse and I'm not expecting her to either.

In London, the knowledge acts as a barrier to entry, and therefore taxis are a lot more expensive than Ireland. Criminal clearance only catches people with criminal records, not all criminals:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/4986942/Black-cab-rapist-John-Warboys-targeted-young-middle-class-women.html

Cookie_Monster

oisindoyle wrote: »

Letter
Yours,

Gerry Corbett,

Chairman,

Galway Taxis

if that is true, and I have no reason to suspect its not, the treatment that your company got from the "Irish Centre for Human Rights" is nothing short of disgraceful and extraordinarily damaging.

It paints a picture of a very lazy and amateur report that has no place being published as fact.

-Chris-

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

if that is true, and I have no reason to suspect its not, the treatment that your company got from the "Irish Centre for Human Rights" is nothing short of disgraceful and extraordinarily damaging.

It paint a picture of a very lazy and amateur report that has no place being published as fact.

Absolutely, I wonder how they'd defend themselves against those assertions. Pretty shoddy tbh.

oisindoyle

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

if that is true, and I have no reason to suspect its not, the treatment that your company got from the "Irish Centre for Human Rights" is nothing short of disgraceful and extraordinarily damaging.

It paint a picture of a very lazy and amateur report that has no place being published as fact.

Yes it is isn't it.Something similar was reported during the week regarding a taxi company from Templeogue.It was reported that the particular company didnt employ africian drivers.
But the truth of the matter was NO africian drivers ever applied to work for the company in the first place.!!

Cookie_Monster

oisindoyle wrote: »

Yes it is isn't it.Something similar was reported during the week regarding a taxi company from Templeogue.It was reported that the particular company didnt employ africian drivers.
But the truth of the matter was NO africian drivers ever applied to work for the company in the first place.!!

yeah I heard the guy talking on Newstalk about that, he was clearly pissed off but struggling not to laugh at how ridiculous it was also.

mbiking123

This probably off-topic but since you asked I'll give an example:
In the Oslo Police Rape Report 2007 it shows a marked increase in Somali rapists, generally on account of gang rapes.

In Oslo all rapes for 2007, 2008 and 2009 have been committed by people from MENA. Year previous to that over 70% of the rapists were non-Norwegian (but 14% of population).

It seems to be a "black on white crime" situation with the majority of perps being non-white MENA while the majority of victims are white Norwegians.

One thing the rapes had in common was use of much brutality, the victims said they thought they would be killed.

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/lo...icle190268.ece
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvlFm4AwAqI

There doesn't seem to be similar stats available for Ireland, that I could find.
A lot of countries doesn't make that type of stats available as they fear it would fuel racism.

Thats a worry

mbiking123

yeah I heard the guy talking on Newstalk about that, he was clearly pissed off but struggling not to laugh at how ridiculous it was also

Agree

Some people very quick to play the 'race card'

AlekSmart

Dear Editor,

With reference to the report on the Galway Taxi Industry; Employment Opportunities, Patterns of Public use and User Perceptions, compiled by the Irish Centre for Human Rights.

As Galway Taxis is a named entity in this report, Galway Taxis while not wishing to inflame or encourage further divergence in relation to allegations of racism within the taxi industry in Galway, must respond to a report which calls for and makes recommendations for the withdrawal of any contractual service arrangements with any taxi company investigated in this report and alludes that Galway Taxis was investigated.

Firstly let us confirm in no uncertain terms that Galway Taxis were never investigated by anyone from the Irish Centre for Human Rights, in relation to this report.....etc etc etc.....

Galway Taxi`s very comprehensive response to this issue is, to my mind,a serious challenge to Newstalk, the Irish Centre for Human Rights and to the NUI Galway whose impramatur sits above the "Report"

As I tried to address in post #16 we need to be very careful when interpreting the so-called results of "Reports"such as this one.

All to often the sight of a suitably impressive title such as Doctor or Proffessor,particularly if it preceedes a suitably exotic foreign name tends to give such reports an aura of significance which may not be deserved.

This particular "Report" fits these criteria admirably.

That does not mean we should disregard or ignore the concerns which fuel it`s commissioning but it should allow us to be somewhat less acceptant of whatever conclusions the "Report`s" writer/s then offer as factual.

In this case I believe Mr Corbett of Galway Taxi`s has given a very calm,reasoned and thorough response to the very serious charges levelled against them in the "Report".

I wonder if Newstalk will be as forthcoming with prime-time broadcast space to allow his rebuttal to be heard ?

mbiking123

I wonder if Newstalk will be as forthcoming with prime-time broadcast space to allow his rebuttal to be heard ?

probably not